Necrom World Bosses are way too difficult

SilverBride

This thread is specifically about the Necrom World Bosses and why players aren't doing them nearly was much as they have in other new chapters. The only answer I've been given is because they are too difficult and take too long, and it's difficult to get a group for them because of this.

SeaGtGruff

I'm sorry if I was adding to any off-topic distractions.

I would add to your last comment that if it's okay for forum members to voice their opinions that some content in the game is too easy, then it should be okay for other forum members to voice their opinions that some content is too difficult.

Speaking purely for myself, I haven't tried the new WBs yet. But if I find I'm able to solo any of them, or duo them, then I'll be happy to answer anyone's call for help, as I do in other zones.

chessalavakia_ESO

Braffin wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

We can't go for sliders to define difficulty almost infinitely variable. But that's not necessary, as it would be sufficient to define some of the already opened instances as "veteran", the playerbase would split upon them as it does now, except the game is taking the respective difficulty setting into account.

The problem is, ZOS wants to avoid the split in the playerbase. Most likely because it could make the game feel emptier than it actually is to new players.

Also, they probably want to avoid setting a precedence, as other groups would almost certainly want their own "special" instances.

I understand that.

Thing is, the split is already here, as we can see in every thread about difficulty.

We have two options now:
1) Looking for a solution which is fitting for at least most of us, even if this mean we aren't in the same instances all the time. (We are are indeed in different instances as the game is now too. So I'm not convinced the game would feel emptier.)
2) Insisting that a specific way to play the game is the only right way to do it and everybody else has to submit to that set norm or leave the game.

I still vote for option 1 and see therefore no reason to set actions which affect all players (nerfing content) while other options are still available.

Part of the issue with separate instances is that the population you pull in isn't just going to be the people that want the harder overland experience. It's also going to be everyone that might prefer to be in a less populated instance. The former might not be that disruptive to lose but, the latter could seriously add up (Ex: players that don't like busy areas, rpers looking to avoid crowds, and resource farmers looking to have less competition)

You'll also run into the issue that people aren't necessarily going to agree on the same level of difficulty for what Veteran should be. For example, I would agree with you that much of the game is too easy but, I'm also one of the people that thinks that the Necrom World Bosses should get nerfed. If the difficulty was aimed at me, it'd likely be too easy for you to enjoy and if it's aimed at you it'd likely be either too tedious or too hard for me to enjoy.

Veteran Overland will also run into the issue that people are lazy/don't necessarily like content. I complain about the difficulty from time to time but, most of the time I'm in-game I am running a companion and relatively well geared out which reduces the difficulty significantly. Even if the difficulty was perfect in my view, I would likely be spending significant periods of time in the easier mode because it goes faster and portions of the content really don't interest me that much.

You'll also hit the payoff issue. If the rewards aren't increased it's not going to be effective which will lead to complaints. If they are increased you'll end up with people in it that don't actually enjoy it for the rewards that will complain about it.

Generally speaking, decisions that take resources will impact everyone to one degree or another. For example, I'd like a PvE Imperial City with reduced Tel Var gain and loss. The time it would take to implement that would take away from other things and it would put a dent on the number of people in the PvP one which could reduce the quality of the experience for the people that like the current version.

Fundamentally, many of the difficulty issues in the game are because ESO draws much of the difficulty from bursts/mechanics and only a small portion of the power a player brings into play is from the character itself. Thus, the results players get are vastly different which makes producing content for them that is enjoyable manner significantly harder.

You make a few fair points here, I nonetheless have some understanding issues with you explanation which I'd like to adress:

1) We already play in seperate instances at any given moment we play this game. There isn't only one instance of "reapers march" for example, but maybe 2-8 of them, depending on the amount of players which are adventuring in this zone. So, even if some people would use a "veteran overland" (which is nothing more but some instances with increased difficulty depending on players porting to that zone by toggling "veteran" on) for various reasons not related to combat, nothing would change. The rules in there would be the same for all players which opted into this and everyone would be free to use it without further restrictions.

2) Of course not all players would agree on the same level of difficulty for veteran overland, as they don't agree on difficulty of overland in general. But having the option to choose between an easier and a more engaging instance would definitely not deteriorate this circumstance but could be an essential tool in counteracting the gap we already have in this game. This very thread we are responding to show exactly why this question is imminent.

3) Yes, people may be lazy sometimes or simply don't like some of the provided content. They won't do this content then in veteran mode but stick to normal mode (as they already do with dungeons), finish it as quick as possible and move on to content they're interested more. This latter content maybe encourages them to do it in veteran mode. I see no problem with that.

4) I simply don't understand what you mean by "payoff issue". Of course there will always be players which aren't satisfied with the rewards for any given content. Look around this forums. We have lots of complaints already. But there is a difference between being able to do content and being willing to do content. Rewards are completely a matter of willingness and don't affect the topic of difficulty at all. Indeed it's a unhealthy peculiarity of mmo-styled games to concentrate almost exclusively on rewards instead of content itself.

5) Yes, altering the game takes resources and therefore everyone of us is affected. With Necrom zos tried to react to increasing demands of the playerbase about a more engaging overland experience, while trying to take into account the concerns of players which voted against any form of "splitting" the playerbase. What are the results? Exactly the players, which were opposing this solution are now demanding nerfs (which, of course, would take resources). If we follow this logic, there will only be easy content left in this game. All players which are looking for a more engaging experience will finally have to find a new game. This is neither a compromise nor is it healthy for the game. Let's be honest here: PvP is starving for years, PvE endgame dried out almost completely, dungeon releases were cut in half. But for some people here that's still not enough, it has to be even easier. Maybe you're right in the end and people are indeed lazy or not interested in the game but play just for the rewards. But if that's the case, this game is on life support anyways.

6) You're right, eso was never a build-based game like other mmos around, but is relying heavily on a player's responsiveness to mechanics. Coupled with the variety of builds, which are theoretically possible (You won't find any other game which give the player a similar amount of freedom, as vertical gear progression is standard in this genre.) the gap between "floor and ceiling" is necessarily significant. There is an easy solution for this issue tho, it's called difficulty options.

If you have a large effectiveness gap between players you aren't going to have many players that can actually utilize content that is designed to be challenging for players at the top which makes it not the highest return on investment.

You can see the issues blatantly in dungeons how the mechanics frequently don't get to fire in normal due to the amount of damage, how you have fake roles all over the place because the amount of damage lets them get away with it much of the time, and how people end up entering veteran having learned next to nothing which leads to players slanting towards pre-mades which further reduces the quality in randoms as well as increases the queue times.

If you have a large effectiveness gap between players and you lack effective skill based matchmaking you will find your population in player vs player content will be lacking and that portions of the population that remain may lean on items designed to mitigate that gap which will end up annoying other players.

You'll notice that ESO's PvP has a fair number of tanky builds that people run to avoid getting killed as much and that the population amount isn't all that impressive outside of an event that draws in players that traditionally don't PvP which shifts the PvP population away from slanting towards being as potent.

ZOS is definitely attempting to bet this year more on players like you than players like me but, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a good bet (or I could be totally off and it might be). I'm interested enough in the Graht-Oak Squirrel and Sancre Tor Sentry in the upcoming event to stick around for the next few weeks but, beyond that I'm not sure I have much that I care about left this year. In other years, I'd have the story from two dungeons and a story dlc to look forward to but, this year it's just going to be an endless dungeon and some quality of life I'm not really interested in.

Braffin

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

We can't go for sliders to define difficulty almost infinitely variable. But that's not necessary, as it would be sufficient to define some of the already opened instances as "veteran", the playerbase would split upon them as it does now, except the game is taking the respective difficulty setting into account.

The problem is, ZOS wants to avoid the split in the playerbase. Most likely because it could make the game feel emptier than it actually is to new players.

Also, they probably want to avoid setting a precedence, as other groups would almost certainly want their own "special" instances.

I understand that.

Thing is, the split is already here, as we can see in every thread about difficulty.

We have two options now:
1) Looking for a solution which is fitting for at least most of us, even if this mean we aren't in the same instances all the time. (We are are indeed in different instances as the game is now too. So I'm not convinced the game would feel emptier.)
2) Insisting that a specific way to play the game is the only right way to do it and everybody else has to submit to that set norm or leave the game.

I still vote for option 1 and see therefore no reason to set actions which affect all players (nerfing content) while other options are still available.

Part of the issue with separate instances is that the population you pull in isn't just going to be the people that want the harder overland experience. It's also going to be everyone that might prefer to be in a less populated instance. The former might not be that disruptive to lose but, the latter could seriously add up (Ex: players that don't like busy areas, rpers looking to avoid crowds, and resource farmers looking to have less competition)

You'll also run into the issue that people aren't necessarily going to agree on the same level of difficulty for what Veteran should be. For example, I would agree with you that much of the game is too easy but, I'm also one of the people that thinks that the Necrom World Bosses should get nerfed. If the difficulty was aimed at me, it'd likely be too easy for you to enjoy and if it's aimed at you it'd likely be either too tedious or too hard for me to enjoy.

Veteran Overland will also run into the issue that people are lazy/don't necessarily like content. I complain about the difficulty from time to time but, most of the time I'm in-game I am running a companion and relatively well geared out which reduces the difficulty significantly. Even if the difficulty was perfect in my view, I would likely be spending significant periods of time in the easier mode because it goes faster and portions of the content really don't interest me that much.

You'll also hit the payoff issue. If the rewards aren't increased it's not going to be effective which will lead to complaints. If they are increased you'll end up with people in it that don't actually enjoy it for the rewards that will complain about it.

Generally speaking, decisions that take resources will impact everyone to one degree or another. For example, I'd like a PvE Imperial City with reduced Tel Var gain and loss. The time it would take to implement that would take away from other things and it would put a dent on the number of people in the PvP one which could reduce the quality of the experience for the people that like the current version.

Fundamentally, many of the difficulty issues in the game are because ESO draws much of the difficulty from bursts/mechanics and only a small portion of the power a player brings into play is from the character itself. Thus, the results players get are vastly different which makes producing content for them that is enjoyable manner significantly harder.

You make a few fair points here, I nonetheless have some understanding issues with you explanation which I'd like to adress:

1) We already play in seperate instances at any given moment we play this game. There isn't only one instance of "reapers march" for example, but maybe 2-8 of them, depending on the amount of players which are adventuring in this zone. So, even if some people would use a "veteran overland" (which is nothing more but some instances with increased difficulty depending on players porting to that zone by toggling "veteran" on) for various reasons not related to combat, nothing would change. The rules in there would be the same for all players which opted into this and everyone would be free to use it without further restrictions.

2) Of course not all players would agree on the same level of difficulty for veteran overland, as they don't agree on difficulty of overland in general. But having the option to choose between an easier and a more engaging instance would definitely not deteriorate this circumstance but could be an essential tool in counteracting the gap we already have in this game. This very thread we are responding to show exactly why this question is imminent.

3) Yes, people may be lazy sometimes or simply don't like some of the provided content. They won't do this content then in veteran mode but stick to normal mode (as they already do with dungeons), finish it as quick as possible and move on to content they're interested more. This latter content maybe encourages them to do it in veteran mode. I see no problem with that.

4) I simply don't understand what you mean by "payoff issue". Of course there will always be players which aren't satisfied with the rewards for any given content. Look around this forums. We have lots of complaints already. But there is a difference between being able to do content and being willing to do content. Rewards are completely a matter of willingness and don't affect the topic of difficulty at all. Indeed it's a unhealthy peculiarity of mmo-styled games to concentrate almost exclusively on rewards instead of content itself.

5) Yes, altering the game takes resources and therefore everyone of us is affected. With Necrom zos tried to react to increasing demands of the playerbase about a more engaging overland experience, while trying to take into account the concerns of players which voted against any form of "splitting" the playerbase. What are the results? Exactly the players, which were opposing this solution are now demanding nerfs (which, of course, would take resources). If we follow this logic, there will only be easy content left in this game. All players which are looking for a more engaging experience will finally have to find a new game. This is neither a compromise nor is it healthy for the game. Let's be honest here: PvP is starving for years, PvE endgame dried out almost completely, dungeon releases were cut in half. But for some people here that's still not enough, it has to be even easier. Maybe you're right in the end and people are indeed lazy or not interested in the game but play just for the rewards. But if that's the case, this game is on life support anyways.

6) You're right, eso was never a build-based game like other mmos around, but is relying heavily on a player's responsiveness to mechanics. Coupled with the variety of builds, which are theoretically possible (You won't find any other game which give the player a similar amount of freedom, as vertical gear progression is standard in this genre.) the gap between "floor and ceiling" is necessarily significant. There is an easy solution for this issue tho, it's called difficulty options.

If you have a large effectiveness gap between players you aren't going to have many players that can actually utilize content that is designed to be challenging for players at the top which makes it not the highest return on investment.

You can see the issues blatantly in dungeons how the mechanics frequently don't get to fire in normal due to the amount of damage, how you have fake roles all over the place because the amount of damage lets them get away with it much of the time, and how people end up entering veteran having learned next to nothing which leads to players slanting towards pre-mades which further reduces the quality in randoms as well as increases the queue times.

If you have a large effectiveness gap between players and you lack effective skill based matchmaking you will find your population in player vs player content will be lacking and that portions of the population that remain may lean on items designed to mitigate that gap which will end up annoying other players.

You'll notice that ESO's PvP has a fair number of tanky builds that people run to avoid getting killed as much and that the population amount isn't all that impressive outside of an event that draws in players that traditionally don't PvP which shifts the PvP population away from slanting towards being as potent.

ZOS is definitely attempting to bet this year more on players like you than players like me but, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a good bet (or I could be totally off and it might be). I'm interested enough in the Graht-Oak Squirrel and Sancre Tor Sentry in the upcoming event to stick around for the next few weeks but, beyond that I'm not sure I have much that I care about left this year. In other years, I'd have the story from two dungeons and a story dlc to look forward to but, this year it's just going to be an endless dungeon and some quality of life I'm not really interested in.

I find it astonishing how precise you describe the issues of the game in it's current state while denying the logical solution to this problems at the same time.

But you're right of course. The game got far too easy over the years, leaving the players uninterested in the gameplay itself. Focusing on shiny rewards hotfixed the situation for some time, but sure, rewards get boring and repetitive after a while.

Time for a change, I'd say.

FeedbackOnly

How many threads now on this?

Just wait for pre made group finder

Olen_Mikko

DEAR LORD NO. This game is way too easy already.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Tra_Lalan

No they aren't. Please dont nerf them!

I really like many things that ZOS did in Necrom, for me they are going into right direction, making World Bosses more challenging is one of those things. Mechanics are fun, and implementing them in the zone content can teach players to deal with them later in dungeons.
This is a multiplayer game, World Bosses are supposed to be a group content. There is nothing wrong in asking for help in zone chat or guild chat. You can also simply wait at the boss and have some other players carry you through the fight. If your zone is empty try changing the instance by porting to other players from your guild.

Tia413

BasP wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

TweFoju wrote: »

...there were at least a dozen players engaged in the WB ( could be more )...

What server was this on? Because that is the exact opposite of what I've been seeing on PCNA.

I play on PCEU and spent most of my in-game time in Apocrypha today. There seems to be decent number of players doing the World Bosses throughout the day. I did the Prime Cataloger WB three times (not consecutively) and each time there were around 5 to 10 other players too, for example.

And this goes to show a lot of the problem I am seeing in this thread (and on this forum as a whole).

I am reading this thread from page 1 onwards and I have only seen a few either mention in their post which server they play on or have it stated in their signature like myself and @SilverBride do.

When making comparisons on game related things I have seen quite a few people asking for more data in this thread and in numerous threads across the forums. IE: gear, cp point allocation, etc.

But yet few ever ask for the data of what server do you play on.

Yet y'all want to compare your bushel of apples to someone elses bushel of apples and claim yours is the best bushel.

And you wonder why we can't agree on anything.
SMH

Tia413

Braffin wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Some are here for a constant challenge, and some are more here for a relaxing elder scrolls experience... and there *are* ways to have the game cater to both...

What bothers me personally is that on the one hand they claim that you can play the way you want and that the game should be there for everyone, but then certain content is only linked to a single way of playing. Concrete example: I hate it when certain leads are tied to group content and there is no chance (or almost no chance) that this group content can also be completed solo - like in the case of the Shipbuilder's Woodworking Station and Wayrest Sewers II.

I agree on this. A solution for all players with their different playstyles should of course include solo instances for all dungeons without tuning down the rewards. Nobody gets harmed by doing so.

Where I see the problem that ZOS has created in what you said above is > Soloist vs those who want everyone to play this as an MMORPG.

I on the most part play solo. Why?

Because I have numerous amounts of times tried to play this game as an MMORPG, in a group with 1 or more people, only to be confronted with things not being doable while in a group.

Case in point: I was overland questing with a friend and both of our quests were advancing just fine then boom we hit a brick wall where 1 of our quests didn't advance at the same time.

Only option you have when you run into this is to break group and the one whose quest didn't advance, then goes and completes the objective, so the quest will advance.

Then you re-group, only to have to drop group again somewhere along the quests' chain line because you ran into another brick wall.

This is very annoying and becomes very frustrating for all parties involved.

And people wonder why people like to play the game in solo mode. (At least this is the reason why I do)

Now you know.


**** In parting I will say that Necrom will be the last DLC I ever buy! ****
Necrom is turning out to be nothing but a very big disappointment for me.
The biggest disappointments for me are....
1) a Companion that forces you to have to traverse through the Gorne Public Dungeon (that was purposely made even harder to get through) in order to get said Companion. We didn't have to do content like that to get any of the other 4.
2) the Difficulty level of WB's

RMW

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

Kendaric

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

It depends on how it works.

If Necrom does indeed become a dead zone, an option for group zone events doesn't help. If Necrom is still a busy zone, then sure. If it utilized by the larger playerbase, that is.

BlueRaven

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

IF it comes out,
IF it works how we currently perceive it will work,
And IF it actually works for the content we want it for,
It will work for a PORTION of the player base.

People who are too anxious to group up with other players, people who are in a rush and do not want to be bothered, players who are not living up to the requirements requested by other players, etc.
Those players will be excluded from that.

Look at modern WoW, where (I believe) there is no group finder for mythic dungeons. All of the issues of gatekeeping there, all of the pain points of that system, could become present here.

Now for overland content that may not be so bad, “If I wait next to this boss long enough, maybe a ‘content finder’ group will show up.”
But as a long term solution I have my doubts.

Even in WoW where group content dungeons and raids is the only end game content, only a minority of players do raids in player made groups “LFR” a purely automated feature, is far more popular, and even then a large portion of accounts never do even that.

TLDR: Will the group finder help? Maybe if our idealized version that exists in our heads becomes real, but it won’t be a solution for everyone, and it may cause additional problems.

Edit:
And it will only work for the portion of the player base still playing of course.

Side note: Canceled my eso plus sub this morning. Been playing since beta so it feels weird. It really does not matter though, I have over 230+ days until my sub actually runs out.

SeaGtGruff

I finally spent a little bit of time in the Telvanni Peninsula. I'm not ready to do any actual questing yet-- I've still got High Isle and Firesong to play through (yeah, I'm slow)-- so I'm just running around and exploring the map.

I'm not sure how many world bosses are in the Telvanni Peninsula versus Apocrypha, but I fought two of them and managed to not die. However, I wasn't soloing them-- I started to solo them but other players showed up to join the fight-- and I'm not sure whether I could have soloed them. The Waking Nightmare was the worst, but as I said, I did manage to stay alive.

Those Herald's Seekers, on the other hand, seemed to be tougher than either of the world bosses I fought; I died numerous times while helping other players fight those.

All in all, it seemed fun in an intensely challenging way, but I can understand why a lot of players might not be thrilled with the increased intensity.

Tia413

Jammy420 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I just hope they look at the data and see how few players are running these World Bosses and do something to make them viable. The reason I am hearing time and again as to why others players aren't wanting to join is the difficulty and the length of the encounters.

Data will show that people want harder overland, and that they have had a drop off of people doing those quests, because they find everything forgettable with how easy it has been.

@Jammy420 Your response is An Assumption. Not Facts.

TweFoju wrote: »

today i randomly travel to Necrom ( since i am still doing older zone quest before i want to move on to Necrom )

But today i did out of the curiousity, and i stumble upon 2 WB along the way and i decided to gave it a try, and i am not sure why people here are saying that there aren't enough players to kill the WB?

Because when i join in, there were at least a dozen players engaged in the WB ( could be more ) but basically i got the kill as well and that's about it, i barely do anything, but it was complete for me. so i don't think it's that hard, unless you do it as a challenge for yourself and tried to solo it ( which i feel it's impossible )

This is my experience on PC EU too, all throughout the ENTIRE day there are swarms of people on the world bosses, hell there are so many people doing it, you might not even get a drop because of the amount of people doing it!

@Jammy420 That's PCEU not PCNA. 2 totally different servers. Just because there are swarms of people doing the WBs on PCEU doesn't mean it's the same case for PCNA.

Sylosi wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Just did a Necrom WB (Runemaster Xiomara) with about 10 people, it died in roughly 15 seconds, it's ridiculously easy.

Anything is "ridiculously easy" with 10 people.

Quite, which is the problem, this is an MMORPG not a single player game. That a "world boss" is just 15 seconds of faceroll for just 10 people in an MMO is absolutely laughable.

Couldnt agree more. This is why overland and quests are dying.

@Jammy420 Referring to the part I made BOLD in your response.....

It may be that way on PCEU but it definitely isn't that way on PCNA.
I am a solo PvEr and I do all quests (not just Main quests) in all zones and DLCs. On all my alts as well as my main. I have characters in every faction and every alt is in a different zone working on the Main and Side Quests.
And I never come across a Overland zone where no one is doing the quests (main or side quests) on PCNA.
The only zones I see very few people questing in, is in the older DLC zones. (Ex: My Main is currently doing all quests in Northern Elsweyr and I have only came across a few there that are out questing).

Kendaric wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Practice makes perfect is apparently a bad thing now adays

Ever thought about people who can't get better for whatever reasons, e.g. disabilities, age, etc? Those people play as well.

TY @Kendaric for sticking up for people like me
I fall into that description under both age and disability.

@Jammy420 And even though we may not be young any more, or as fast of thinkers or as fast of movers as you younger lot, we are still people who deserve to be and choose to be entertained by enjoying playing a game such as ESO. TYVM!

So, just because you want the game to be harder doesn't necessarily mean everyone else wants it to be also.

RMW

Kendaric wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

It depends on how it works.

If Necrom does indeed become a dead zone, an option for group zone events doesn't help. If Necrom is still a busy zone, then sure. If it utilized by the larger playerbase, that is.

Yeah a dead zone will be a problem indeed, espacially with no incentives to do them later on.

BlueRaven wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

IF it comes out,
IF it works how we currently perceive it will work,
And IF it actually works for the content we want it for,
It will work for a PORTION of the player base.

People who are too anxious to group up with other players, people who are in a rush and do not want to be bothered, players who are not living up to the requirements requested by other players, etc.
Those players will be excluded from that.

Look at modern WoW, where (I believe) there is no group finder for mythic dungeons. All of the issues of gatekeeping there, all of the pain points of that system, could become present here.

Now for overland content that may not be so bad, “If I wait next to this boss long enough, maybe a ‘content finder’ group will show up.”
But as a long term solution I have my doubts.

Even in WoW where group content dungeons and raids is the only end game content, only a minority of players do raids in player made groups “LFR” a purely automated feature, is far more popular, and even then a large portion of accounts never do even that.

TLDR: Will the group finder help? Maybe if our idealized version that exists in our heads becomes real, but it won’t be a solution for everyone, and it may cause additional problems.

Edit:
And it will only work for the portion of the player base still playing of course.

Side note: Canceled my eso plus sub this morning. Been playing since beta so it feels weird. It really does not matter though, I have over 230+ days until my sub actually runs out.

If I came across like dismissing the problem I'm sorry. That was not the intention behing my words. English is not my first language. Atm I was just thinking about a solution that would help both sides - people who had problems finding groups as stated by OP and the people who like a challenge. Ergo the talks about a new group finder came to mind. One of my guildies mentioned NPCs that could help out if not many or even only one person doing the world boss (like companions) that only spawn if not many players are there.

The 'dead zone' argument is definetly problematic, I didn't think about this before. Adding incentives would maybe party solve this so people keep doing the zones - but I can see this becoming a problem too with more zones coming.

Personally I like harder content but I can see your points too - hopefully ZOS finds a way to find the sweet spot for both groups of people.

Wolfkeks

RMW wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

It depends on how it works.

If Necrom does indeed become a dead zone, an option for group zone events doesn't help. If Necrom is still a busy zone, then sure. If it utilized by the larger playerbase, that is.

Yeah a dead zone will be a problem indeed, espacially with no incentives to do them later on.

BlueRaven wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

IF it comes out,
IF it works how we currently perceive it will work,
And IF it actually works for the content we want it for,
It will work for a PORTION of the player base.

People who are too anxious to group up with other players, people who are in a rush and do not want to be bothered, players who are not living up to the requirements requested by other players, etc.
Those players will be excluded from that.

Look at modern WoW, where (I believe) there is no group finder for mythic dungeons. All of the issues of gatekeeping there, all of the pain points of that system, could become present here.

Now for overland content that may not be so bad, “If I wait next to this boss long enough, maybe a ‘content finder’ group will show up.”
But as a long term solution I have my doubts.

Even in WoW where group content dungeons and raids is the only end game content, only a minority of players do raids in player made groups “LFR” a purely automated feature, is far more popular, and even then a large portion of accounts never do even that.

TLDR: Will the group finder help? Maybe if our idealized version that exists in our heads becomes real, but it won’t be a solution for everyone, and it may cause additional problems.

Edit:
And it will only work for the portion of the player base still playing of course.

Side note: Canceled my eso plus sub this morning. Been playing since beta so it feels weird. It really does not matter though, I have over 230+ days until my sub actually runs out.

If I came across like dismissing the problem I'm sorry. That was not the intention behing my words. English is not my first language. Atm I was just thinking about a solution that would help both sides - people who had problems finding groups as stated by OP and the people who like a challenge. Ergo the talks about a new group finder came to mind. One of my guildies mentioned NPCs that could help out if not many or even only one person doing the world boss (like companions) that only spawn if not many players are there.

The 'dead zone' argument is definetly problematic, I didn't think about this before. Adding incentives would maybe party solve this so people keep doing the zones - but I can see this becoming a problem too with more zones coming.

Personally I like harder content but I can see your points too - hopefully ZOS finds a way to find the sweet spot for both groups of people.

"Adding incentives" - reminds me why the Deadlands Portals are not dead yet. They added something cool to farm/to work for so people come back and therefore you have enough people doing them.

ZOS could add something along the lines of the rotating dungeon style pages that come from killing the last bosses there. Maybe add the chance for Style Pages (or Pets, Mounts, whatever) for a certain period of time for certain zones so people have something to come back for. While I like the difficulty I can see the problem of doing the dailies/bosses after everyone has the achievement or outside zone events.

ShalidorsHeir

SilverBride wrote: »

This thread is specifically about the Necrom World Bosses and why players aren't doing them nearly was much as they have in other new chapters. The only answer I've been given is because they are too difficult and take too long, and it's difficult to get a group for them because of this.

I think thats not even close. Diablo 4 was released and it is summer - right after PvP event where people usualy take a short break from the game as experienced the recent years (subjective). When i look around in necrom then the reason on why people do not group up for bosses then because they are not online - its not about difficulty its only about the fact the players do not play necrom yet
besides that:
1. world bosses are "group" content where as "group" means that you play together with others, no speicific numbers or the grouping function or whatever
2. where i can kill them all solo without a group
3. higher difficulty increases the motivation to do group up
-> dragons in nothern elyweyr are harder than the world bosses in necrom and are much more visited than then necrom content

Tia413

Elsonso wrote: »

If people are not repeating content, I do think that is an issue. Is it in the best interests of the game to leave it essentially abandoned for stretches of time? Is this just time spent by the development team that is largely wasted effort?

I am sure that ZOS keeps statistics about how long world bosses stand around before getting taken down, how long dolmens sit idle before someone comes along, and all that. Would be cool, and probably very disappointing, to see those numbers.

I agree. And maybe that is what is needed to solve this war between "I want harder content and I want the level of difficulty of the content we have/had before Necrom".

Nerfing content is easy for them. Drop the numbers and the engagement rates will go up as the difficulty matches what a larger number of players are looking for.

Adding incentive to learn mechanics is something that seems reserved for dungeons and trials, not world bosses. Certainly, they could do that. It is much more work, and impacts a larger part of the game than just world bosses.

I 100% agree

Easy mode for ZOS is to just nerf and move on.

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

They simply ignore this facts and try to frame it according to their personal liking, while pretending to lean on data which they refuse to publish.

The only ones with with the REAL FACTS/TRUTHS/DATA...is ZOS. And I don't believe they will share it with us.

Some people are apparently not interested in a positive solution for anyone except themselves.

Luckily zos is starting to listen to the real playerbase and is acting accordingly. We already see first steps in the right direction with Necrom and I'm quite sure more will follow.

We'll see, won't we?

If ESO becomes too difficult for me in activities I enjoy like questing/story, I'll simply leave the game. Simple as that.

I 100% agree with @Kendaric on this.

Jammy420 wrote: »

If zos keeps the game at increased difficulty, my wife and I are more likely to pay and play more, some with most mmo players.

Look, this game is an MMO, and it should be balanced as that. They can see that numbers have consistantly gone down, and they can see that the majority of people think its too easy. The venn diagram of people leaving and the game being too easy is clear.

Care to share the link to that info ? I haven't seen it yet and would like to before I spend any more money on this game.

Elsonso wrote: »

I am one of those who think that "I want easy" so outnumbers "I want hard" that if everyone who wanted it easy left the game, this place would be shuttered before the end of the year.

I agree about the numbers.

Of course, ZOS is the only one who really knows, and that is not something they are willing to share, I am sure.

Agree, Zos is the only one who has the REAL answer. And Yeah, I don't see ZOS releasing that info either.

I will agree that rewards [snip]. ZOS is very stingy in this respect. We risk our lives daily, figuratively speaking, for a few gold coins and some crusty armor we don't care about.

Braffin wrote: »

The problem I see with the dichotomy easy/hard is the lack of underlying definition of this terms.

What's easy content? When does content get hard?

This questions can only be answered out of personal experience and therefore the validity of the resulting answers are limited to a subjective opinion. It's simply not possible to deduce a general truth out of this data.

What's possible is to collect as many personal opinions about this topic as possible and draw a conclusion out of this data.

I'm sure zos is already doing this, and we got increased difficulty with Necrom as well as the promise of an "endless dungeon" in Q4 to adress this topic. That's a clear indicator, that a significant amount of the playerbase isn't happy with actual difficulty and demanding more engaging encounters.

This matches also my observations in this forums, as every poll results in a majority voting for more (optional) difficulty, as well as the amount of posters which are fine with higher difficulty is exeedingly higher than posters which are calling for content nerfs.

Lots of people have left the forums due to the toxicity on here or won't speak up on here because they would rather not deal with the toxicity that will get spewed at them. There is no way to simply discuss anything on here any more nor to agree to disagree. People just want to pick a fight.
So the polls that are taken on this forum no longer mean anything to me because it's biased.

BlueRaven

RMW wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

It depends on how it works.

If Necrom does indeed become a dead zone, an option for group zone events doesn't help. If Necrom is still a busy zone, then sure. If it utilized by the larger playerbase, that is.

Yeah a dead zone will be a problem indeed, espacially with no incentives to do them later on.

BlueRaven wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

IF it comes out,
IF it works how we currently perceive it will work,
And IF it actually works for the content we want it for,
It will work for a PORTION of the player base.

People who are too anxious to group up with other players, people who are in a rush and do not want to be bothered, players who are not living up to the requirements requested by other players, etc.
Those players will be excluded from that.

Look at modern WoW, where (I believe) there is no group finder for mythic dungeons. All of the issues of gatekeeping there, all of the pain points of that system, could become present here.

Now for overland content that may not be so bad, “If I wait next to this boss long enough, maybe a ‘content finder’ group will show up.”
But as a long term solution I have my doubts.

Even in WoW where group content dungeons and raids is the only end game content, only a minority of players do raids in player made groups “LFR” a purely automated feature, is far more popular, and even then a large portion of accounts never do even that.

TLDR: Will the group finder help? Maybe if our idealized version that exists in our heads becomes real, but it won’t be a solution for everyone, and it may cause additional problems.

Edit:
And it will only work for the portion of the player base still playing of course.

Side note: Canceled my eso plus sub this morning. Been playing since beta so it feels weird. It really does not matter though, I have over 230+ days until my sub actually runs out.

If I came across like dismissing the problem I'm sorry. That was not the intention behing my words. English is not my first language. Atm I was just thinking about a solution that would help both sides - people who had problems finding groups as stated by OP and the people who like a challenge. Ergo the talks about a new group finder came to mind. One of my guildies mentioned NPCs that could help out if not many or even only one person doing the world boss (like companions) that only spawn if not many players are there.

The 'dead zone' argument is definetly problematic, I didn't think about this before. Adding incentives would maybe party solve this so people keep doing the zones - but I can see this becoming a problem too with more zones coming.

Personally I like harder content but I can see your points too - hopefully ZOS finds a way to find the sweet spot for both groups of people.

I was not in any way thinking you were dismissing the problem. In fact I had no issue with your suggestion at all.

I am sorry if my post sounded aggressive towards you.

SilverBride

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

No they aren't. Please dont nerf them!

I really like many things that ZOS did in Necrom, for me they are going into right direction, making World Bosses more challenging is one of those things. Mechanics are fun, and implementing them in the zone content can teach players to deal with them later in dungeons.
This is a multiplayer game, World Bosses are supposed to be a group content. There is nothing wrong in asking for help in zone chat or guild chat. You can also simply wait at the boss and have some other players carry you through the fight. If your zone is empty try changing the instance by porting to other players from your guild.

I agree that World Bosses are supposed to be group content, but that requires being able to find a group. When others are declining to join groups this early in a new chapter, something is wrong.

I have repeatedly asked for help in zone chat and offered to share the daily quest and very few show up, if any. This is very different from other new chapters. With other new chapters all you had to do was show up and there would be multiple others already there waiting for the boss to spawn.

Because others have given their reason for not joining as the bosses being too hard and the fights too long this should be looked at.

They can either tune down the difficulty or what I think is a better solution they can have the fights scale to the number of players engaging them. It could be something like the fewer players there are fewer adds spawn, and the more players there are the more adds spawn.

Regardless, this should be addressed.

Braffin

Tia413 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Some are here for a constant challenge, and some are more here for a relaxing elder scrolls experience... and there *are* ways to have the game cater to both...

What bothers me personally is that on the one hand they claim that you can play the way you want and that the game should be there for everyone, but then certain content is only linked to a single way of playing. Concrete example: I hate it when certain leads are tied to group content and there is no chance (or almost no chance) that this group content can also be completed solo - like in the case of the Shipbuilder's Woodworking Station and Wayrest Sewers II.

I agree on this. A solution for all players with their different playstyles should of course include solo instances for all dungeons without tuning down the rewards. Nobody gets harmed by doing so.

Where I see the problem that ZOS has created in what you said above is > Soloist vs those who want everyone to play this as an MMORPG.

I on the most part play solo. Why?

Because I have numerous amounts of times tried to play this game as an MMORPG, in a group with 1 or more people, only to be confronted with things not being doable while in a group.

Case in point: I was overland questing with a friend and both of our quests were advancing just fine then boom we hit a brick wall where 1 of our quests didn't advance at the same time.

Only option you have when you run into this is to break group and the one whose quest didn't advance, then goes and completes the objective, so the quest will advance.

Then you re-group, only to have to drop group again somewhere along the quests' chain line because you ran into another brick wall.

This is very annoying and becomes very frustrating for all parties involved.

And people wonder why people like to play the game in solo mode. (At least this is the reason why I do)

Now you know.


**** In parting I will say that Necrom will be the last DLC I ever buy! ****
Necrom is turning out to be nothing but a very big disappointment for me.
The biggest disappointments for me are....
1) a Companion that forces you to have to traverse through the Gorne Public Dungeon (that was purposely made even harder to get through) in order to get said Companion. We didn't have to do content like that to get any of the other 4.
2) the Difficulty level of WB's

Yes, questing in overland is odd sometimes. One of my toons is explicitely made for enjoying the game with my friend and we also encountered the quests you described. This only happens in base game quests to be fair (AD has quite a few of them), while zos managed to solve these issues in DLC zones.

Besides that: I have no problem with people, which want to play this game solo. I even support ideas like solo instances for dungeons. But not at the cost of all the people which want to play this mmo as mmo.

The best solution is still splitting instances which are catering to different needs regarding difficulty. If this isn't possible out of whatever reasons, then it's a shared world, where all interests have to be reflected.

RMW

BlueRaven wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

It depends on how it works.

If Necrom does indeed become a dead zone, an option for group zone events doesn't help. If Necrom is still a busy zone, then sure. If it utilized by the larger playerbase, that is.

Yeah a dead zone will be a problem indeed, espacially with no incentives to do them later on.

BlueRaven wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

IF it comes out,
IF it works how we currently perceive it will work,
And IF it actually works for the content we want it for,
It will work for a PORTION of the player base.

People who are too anxious to group up with other players, people who are in a rush and do not want to be bothered, players who are not living up to the requirements requested by other players, etc.
Those players will be excluded from that.

Look at modern WoW, where (I believe) there is no group finder for mythic dungeons. All of the issues of gatekeeping there, all of the pain points of that system, could become present here.

Now for overland content that may not be so bad, “If I wait next to this boss long enough, maybe a ‘content finder’ group will show up.”
But as a long term solution I have my doubts.

Even in WoW where group content dungeons and raids is the only end game content, only a minority of players do raids in player made groups “LFR” a purely automated feature, is far more popular, and even then a large portion of accounts never do even that.

TLDR: Will the group finder help? Maybe if our idealized version that exists in our heads becomes real, but it won’t be a solution for everyone, and it may cause additional problems.

Edit:
And it will only work for the portion of the player base still playing of course.

Side note: Canceled my eso plus sub this morning. Been playing since beta so it feels weird. It really does not matter though, I have over 230+ days until my sub actually runs out.

If I came across like dismissing the problem I'm sorry. That was not the intention behing my words. English is not my first language. Atm I was just thinking about a solution that would help both sides - people who had problems finding groups as stated by OP and the people who like a challenge. Ergo the talks about a new group finder came to mind. One of my guildies mentioned NPCs that could help out if not many or even only one person doing the world boss (like companions) that only spawn if not many players are there.

The 'dead zone' argument is definetly problematic, I didn't think about this before. Adding incentives would maybe party solve this so people keep doing the zones - but I can see this becoming a problem too with more zones coming.

Personally I like harder content but I can see your points too - hopefully ZOS finds a way to find the sweet spot for both groups of people.

I was not in any way thinking you were dismissing the problem. In fact I had no issue with your suggestion at all.

I am sorry if my post sounded aggressive towards you.

Gotcha, the problem of the written word - I thought my thought came out wrong.
Again, I hope we can find a solution so the game will stay fun for everyone!

RMW

Wolfkeks wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

It depends on how it works.

If Necrom does indeed become a dead zone, an option for group zone events doesn't help. If Necrom is still a busy zone, then sure. If it utilized by the larger playerbase, that is.

Yeah a dead zone will be a problem indeed, espacially with no incentives to do them later on.

BlueRaven wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

If I remember correctly Rich talked about a pre-made group finder coming to ESO with Q3.
Would that be a solution for grouping if it ends up having an option for group zone events instead of nerfing the bosses?

IF it comes out,
IF it works how we currently perceive it will work,
And IF it actually works for the content we want it for,
It will work for a PORTION of the player base.

People who are too anxious to group up with other players, people who are in a rush and do not want to be bothered, players who are not living up to the requirements requested by other players, etc.
Those players will be excluded from that.

Look at modern WoW, where (I believe) there is no group finder for mythic dungeons. All of the issues of gatekeeping there, all of the pain points of that system, could become present here.

Now for overland content that may not be so bad, “If I wait next to this boss long enough, maybe a ‘content finder’ group will show up.”
But as a long term solution I have my doubts.

Even in WoW where group content dungeons and raids is the only end game content, only a minority of players do raids in player made groups “LFR” a purely automated feature, is far more popular, and even then a large portion of accounts never do even that.

TLDR: Will the group finder help? Maybe if our idealized version that exists in our heads becomes real, but it won’t be a solution for everyone, and it may cause additional problems.

Edit:
And it will only work for the portion of the player base still playing of course.

Side note: Canceled my eso plus sub this morning. Been playing since beta so it feels weird. It really does not matter though, I have over 230+ days until my sub actually runs out.

If I came across like dismissing the problem I'm sorry. That was not the intention behing my words. English is not my first language. Atm I was just thinking about a solution that would help both sides - people who had problems finding groups as stated by OP and the people who like a challenge. Ergo the talks about a new group finder came to mind. One of my guildies mentioned NPCs that could help out if not many or even only one person doing the world boss (like companions) that only spawn if not many players are there.

The 'dead zone' argument is definetly problematic, I didn't think about this before. Adding incentives would maybe party solve this so people keep doing the zones - but I can see this becoming a problem too with more zones coming.

Personally I like harder content but I can see your points too - hopefully ZOS finds a way to find the sweet spot for both groups of people.

"Adding incentives" - reminds me why the Deadlands Portals are not dead yet. They added something cool to farm/to work for so people come back and therefore you have enough people doing them.

ZOS could add something along the lines of the rotating dungeon style pages that come from killing the last bosses there. Maybe add the chance for Style Pages (or Pets, Mounts, whatever) for a certain period of time for certain zones so people have something to come back for. While I like the difficulty I can see the problem of doing the dailies/bosses after everyone has the achievement or outside zone events.

I like this idea. Other old zones would get some love and players would have the chance to get the items later on even if they missed the time period.

dcam86b14_ESO

I personally think the WB in necrom /TP are just what we needed. Even the seekers are fun to solo.

StormBlade512

I thought we wanted a more difficult overland

SilverBride

StormBlade512 wrote: »

I thought we wanted a more difficult overland

I never wanted that.

Tia413

me_ming wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Ever thought about people who can't get better for whatever reasons, e.g. disabilities, age, etc? Those people play as well.

I'm really tired of statements like this one. Are you telling me that people with disabilities cannot do anything in this game other than run around and quest? Are you saying that just because they are disabled they are not capable of learning mechanics or improving? Seriously, I'm curious if that is what you think of people with disabilities. Because I, for one, know a lot of people with disabilities who can do things a lot better than people who do not. Please let's stop this assumption that just because some people have disabilities that they cannot get better, because the only reason ANYONE cannot get better is because you didn't try.

I so wanna curse right now.
Post like these really get my blood boiling.

I have Memory Issues (amongst other issues) thanks to taking hits in the head because the man I was married to decided beating me was much more convenient to him than going to anger management classes.
I ended up having a severe stroke at the age of 30 due to the abuse. Had to learn how to feed myself, walk again, talk again, etc.
I just had to use a calculator to even be able to remember what age I was when I had my stroke. I've also had to use spell check several times while writing the above. Am I proud of that? No I am not!
I graduated High School with a 4.0 gpa. And I was reduced down to a vegetative state in moments. I almost died. Do I want to be in a better state than I am now? Yes, I would!
I am lucky to be walking and talking today. But some things are not as repairable as broken bones are.
So how dare you judge my disability against the people you claim you know whom are disabled.
Not everyones disability is the same or affects them the same.

So Boss mechanics.....yeah there is absolutely, positively no way I could ever be able to memorize them. I can't even remember to do simple rotations. I just choose skills that I see help me kill things the quickest and that's what I run with.
No rotation to it. I just keep pressing keys ( I use the Keypad on a Keyboard for my skills. It's easier for me that way because I still don't have full use of my left side). I may press 1243 on one kill and it may end it being 4132 on the next kill. I do click my LMB during it all though. But stuff dies. And that's all that matters to me.

So don't sit there and say "the only reason ANYONE cannot get better is because you didn't try." because that is hogwash. I wouldn't even be here writing this if I didn't try. But What I have left of the old me is all I will ever have. And I am grateful for that. And noone will ever take that away from me!

I can solo most World Bosses in the game but the Necrom WB's are a whole different story thanks to the added mechanics.

Katahdin

Some of them are a bit difficult for less than 4-5 people to kill.

Seems like pretty much all Necrom bosses (World bosses and Bastion Nymic) use the same mechanic where 4 or 5 things spawn around them that make them immune to damage until you kill those things. Kinda uninspired lack of fight variety IMO.

The most interesting fight to me is the final boss in the Dreaming sector of Bastion Nymic.

Kendaric

StormBlade512 wrote: »

I thought we wanted a more difficult overland

I certainly don't want it.
The game is difficult enough for me in most places. Do I think some enemies could use a buff? Sure. Some enemies like giants, mammoths or trolls/ogres could use a slight buff.
But world bosses are already difficult enough and making the fights longer and more tedious certainly isn't enticing me to do them even once when I finally buy Necrom.

Yes, certain people on the forums want it, whether it's the majority or just some extremely vocal minority remains to be seen.
But even those who want it are divided between those who want to force it anyone and those who want it as optional.

Marcus684

Katahdin wrote: »

Some of them are a bit difficult for less than 4-5 people to kill.

Seems like pretty much all Necrom bosses (World bosses and Bastion Nymic) use the same mechanic where 4 or 5 things spawn around them that make them immune to damage until you kill those things. Kinda uninspired lack of fight variety IMO.

The most interesting fight to me is the final boss in the Dreaming sector of Bastion Nymic.

Thinking about it further, I think ZOS putting in adds that must be dealt with to WB fights is a good thing. Way too many dungeon boss fights are a simple burn, so much so that newer players really struggle with boss fights with adds. Adding this mechanic in an open world setting gives them a chance to learn it in a more forgiving venue. Any of the other players in the fight can yell "kill the tentacles" or whatever adds there are to clue them in.