Really, really, getting SICK of fake tanks in dungeons

alay_NB

Fake tanks are a plague. Especially in DCL dungeons.

I don't care about fake tanks in FG1.

Elrond87

i tank, what im sick of is low damage dealers i sooner take the time penalty and relog to another and try again for it to happen again, the time it takes in queue to find a tank as a dd is as long as it takes me to tank through a dungeon from most dds i find in pug groups

peacenote

I believe at least three things can be done. I will put them in every thread that pops up about this.

One, years ago we were allowed to queue as multiple roles. This has been removed (I do not recall the original reason) but now we have the Armory and, if you consider the easiest dungeon in normal to the hardest dungeon in vet DLC, an extremely broad range of difficulty across dungeons, such that sometimes you can be a "fake" role and the group is successful, and sometimes it isn't. So I say, bring back the ability to queue for multiple roles. This would allow people to select when they are willing and able to switch to a tank or healing for a difficult dungeon. I think there are enough people out there willing to do this that it would help the queue time overall while enabling the dungeon finder to be more likely to select players for the roles who might actually do them. Perhaps a 30 second "hold in place" beam when you are ported into the dungeon so the player who has to switch roles can say "I need to swap to tank build" and can do so.

Two, I think ZOS should have a cycle where they roll the DLC dungeons into the random queue after they have been out for a while, even for un-subscribers. This would lengthen the "average" dungeon time and increase the amount of times you land in a dungeon and fail with a fake role, slowing changing the culture and normalizing expectations for length of time in queue and that supports are needed when doing a random dungeon. The problem now is the easy ones are SO easy and un-subscribers, on average, can claim the same rewards much faster than subscribers because the chances of getting a "quick" dungeon are much higher. I'm thinking in general there are many more un-subscribers than subscribers, so there is an inherent conflict and gap in experience with queuing. That needs to be addressed. In most cases, a person's most valuable thing is their time, and players will always choose the path that gets them rewards faster and on to the next thing. The expectation that a dungeon queue should be superlightningomgfast encourages bad behavior and unless the average length to queue for a random gets longer for the majority of the population, you'll always get people trying to take these shortcuts.

Three, ZOS could implement a rewards system to encourage people to do the right thing. Perhaps you earn transmutes, extra gold, a chance to drop a monster motif, etc. if you taunt three times during the dungeon as a tank, heal to a certain amount as a healer, do a minimum amount of damage as DPS. The rewards should be nice enough that it feels like a reward when you get them, but not so nice that it ruins the fun of experimental and nonstandard group comps if you don't.

The one thing I am against is any kind of gatekeeping system which could be easily avoided and will just punish people with unique builds and experienced players who know enough about the game to be efficient. For example, I might know as a tank or a healer that the first boss or initial trash pulls in a dungeon don't need me taunting or healing, but I am set up to quickly swap to a more serious setup as we move further in. Usually I actually do the opposite (start cautious but then switch to a damage or hybrid setup if the group clearly doesn't need it) but either way we don't need abilities locked on bars or ability checks. At MOST, maybe a private one so newer players who might not know better get a message from the game saying "ALERT: you're a tank and you're missing a taunt!" Because of course the other issue is it can be difficult to tell the difference between a new person and a fake role, and we don't want to be too unfriendly or strict to newer players who are still learning.

Daoin

i have seen a couple of mentions about an improved group finder next update, does anyone know if the new approach will help solve the unenjoyabilty of group finder and of fake roles ? i cant seem to find much official information about it

Daoin

well a person is basically tricking thier way into a random group dressed as a tank when they are a dd, im not sure how many tanks and dd's have the same opinion about fake healers but in my opinion 'chase those crazy fake healers and fake tanks outta town' (for random groups) for fixed groups who cares ?

pelle412

Whatever "systems" you all are concocting to solve this problem is not going to work. Choosing a role for a dungeon is a choice and fulfilling that role is also a choice. If I queue as tank in heavy armor, using sword/shield, have taunts on my bar but I choose to never taunt, am I a tank or a fake tank? What if I'm a 18k health DPS using staves but I slot a taunt and I use it, then am I a tank or a fake tank? The same question also applies to healers. I can have a bar with heals but never use them.

These discussions have been going on since before I first started this game when Morrowind expansion was released. Nothing has changed. The root problem here is the massive rewards provided for doing a random normal dungeon. Move those rewards to more challenging game modes. That would leave normal dungeons for players who want to do their normal pledge, dungeon quest etc.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

preevious

Fake tanks and heals are a scourge,
and they should be reported every time because that's an exploit, by the very définition of the term.

It's as dire an exploit as cheaters in Cyrodiil, as both behaviours aims to get an undue advantage at the expense of others.

I don't know what happens afterward, but I take pride in reporting them.

ZOS_Volpe wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

While I understand the need for modération, maybe Zenimax should finally take a stand about that issue instead of censoring threads where everyone kept civil.
Because it IS a very big issue that routinely wrecks the expérience of your playerbase.
It would go a long way in curtailing those endless debates in the future.

IndyMike26

Try being an “actual” tank during this event, and you will have your answer. You are literally useless in normal dungeons running around in heavy armor about 20 steps behind the group speeding through everything.

Also, there is a kick button if the entire group feels there is a need for an “actual” tank.

AvalonRanger

"Fake tank, fake tank never changes."

ZOS can't solve it, or won't solve these type of problem.
There're only 2 option to avoid terrible fake role.

1, You must become real tank. And, queue as real tank.

2, Do it with guild member or decent role friend. (say "LF real tank for the pledge.")
And, quit to use random queue.

Or, vote to kick bad fake role cheater, or leave from group.

Well, people should give up to solve fake tank problem.

tmbrinks

Vet Darkshade 2 - This is Grobull to the end.

The arcanist is a dps.

The DK was the tank... in real gear, taunting, pulling w/ chains.

Elearium is me... the healer, in real gear, healing. That damage is my wall, shards, vamp bane, and beam in execute.

The bottom templar was the 2nd "DPS". 1300+ CP, 43k health and did half the damage of a real tank and healer.

The "good" dps was doing damage similar to the tank and healer using normal skills, while doing their role. The other... not so much.

Thank goodness it's an easy dungeon, if this had been a DLC pledge, would have wasted my time.

Braffin

tmbrinks wrote: »

Vet Darkshade 2 - This is Grobull to the end.

The arcanist is a dps.

The DK was the tank... in real gear, taunting, pulling w/ chains.

Elearium is me... the healer, in real gear, healing. That damage is my wall, shards, vamp bane, and beam in execute.

The bottom templar was the 2nd "DPS". 1300+ CP, 43k health and did half the damage of a real tank and healer.

The "good" dps was doing damage similar to the tank and healer using normal skills, while doing their role. The other... not so much.

Thank goodness it's an easy dungeon, if this had been a DLC pledge, would have wasted my time.

Yeah, that's exactly the problem right at the point.

While I'm fine with newer players doing low dps because they're still learning, that's the unfortunate reality:

Pugs are filled with veteran fake dds, which don't lack dps out of missing experience but because they play as they want, while expecting tanks and healers to run solid builds to "push" their nonexistent dps.

That's why most of real tanks and healers refuse to pug and fake roles fill the gap to lessen queue times.

And instead of acknowledging the original problem, the fake dds come to the forums and demand punitive actions against fake-role-players as well as harmful changes to the way how dungeons work (for example some ask for unskippable optional sidebosses to ensure we others enjoy every hour of this run while watching awesome 7k dps 😆😆😆).

ForzaRammer

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

What is a fake tank?

A DPS that queues as a tank for the faster queue pop but is not a tank, has no taunt slotted, has little health, and has no intention of performing the tank role that he queued for. Basically a self centered player who doesn't care if he ruins the dungeon experience of 3 other players.

This is false, being a dd is not a prerequisite for being a fake tank

ForzaRammer

AvalonRanger wrote: »

"Fake tank, fake tank never changes."

ZOS can't solve it, or won't solve these type of problem.
There're only 2 option to avoid terrible fake role.

1, You must become real tank. And, queue as real tank.

2, Do it with guild member or decent role friend. (say "LF real tank for the pledge.")
And, quit to use random queue.

Or, vote to kick bad fake role cheater, or leave from group.

Well, people should give up to solve fake tank problem.

As a real tank, i get fake dd often (about 1 in 10 from queue), and i see these people on forums with their prejudice and xenophobia towards us support mains, downplaying our suffering everyday.

boi_anachronism_

ForzaRammer wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

"Fake tank, fake tank never changes."

ZOS can't solve it, or won't solve these type of problem.
There're only 2 option to avoid terrible fake role.

1, You must become real tank. And, queue as real tank.

2, Do it with guild member or decent role friend. (say "LF real tank for the pledge.")
And, quit to use random queue.

Or, vote to kick bad fake role cheater, or leave from group.

Well, people should give up to solve fake tank problem.

As a real tank, i get fake dd often (about 1 in 10 from queue), and i see these people on forums with their prejudice and xenophobia towards us support mains, downplaying our suffering everyday.

You only understand this if you got good homies who are support mains are one yourself..

matrix268

preevious wrote: »

Fake tanks and heals are a scourge,
and they should be reported every time because that's an exploit, by the very définition of the term.

It's as dire an exploit as cheaters in Cyrodiil, as both behaviours aims to get an undue advantage at the expense of others.

I don't know what happens afterward, but I take pride in reporting them.

ZOS_Volpe wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

While I understand the need for modération, maybe Zenimax should finally take a stand about that issue instead of censoring threads where everyone kept civil.
Because it IS a very big issue that routinely wrecks the expérience of your playerbase.
It would go a long way in curtailing those endless debates in the future.

I believe ZOS should give an incentive for players to use a support role, as those are clearly in high demand. There should also definitely be an option to report Edit: fake tanks directly from the group menu, as it ruins harder dungeons for everyone. Somewhere after the 3rd or 4th wipe, I tend to lose my patience. There's the old saying, "if you burn em down quick enough you dont have to worry about mechanics," yet some of these abusers can't even deal good damage, even though they have less health then everyone else in the group.

ForzaRammer

matrix268 wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Fake tanks and heals are a scourge,
and they should be reported every time because that's an exploit, by the very définition of the term.

It's as dire an exploit as cheaters in Cyrodiil, as both behaviours aims to get an undue advantage at the expense of others.

I don't know what happens afterward, but I take pride in reporting them.

ZOS_Volpe wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

While I understand the need for modération, maybe Zenimax should finally take a stand about that issue instead of censoring threads where everyone kept civil.
Because it IS a very big issue that routinely wrecks the expérience of your playerbase.
It would go a long way in curtailing those endless debates in the future.

I believe ZOS should give an incentive for players to use a support role, as those are clearly in high demand. There should also definitely be an option to report them directly from the group menu, as it ruins harder dungeons for everyone. Somewhere after the 3rd or 4th wipe, I tend to lose my patience. There's the old saying, "if you burn em down quick enough you dont have to worry about mechanics," yet some of these abusers can't even deal good damage, even though they have less health then everyone else in the group.

Yes, as a support main i’d love more incentives and better treatment, start with “2 support can kick fake dd even if the 3rd person refuse”

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We've removed several bashing, naming and shaming comments, content that is against the Forum Rules. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.