Really, really, getting SICK of fake tanks in dungeons

Thee_Cheshire_Cat

Please, can't there be something done to prevent this, OTHER THAN having to form your own groups.

i get ques can be long if you're not a tank or healer, but my goodness, it is getting real old, real fast, dying when you don't have an ACTUAL tank in your dungeon group coz some impatient person decided to que as one to get in faster.

LunaFlora

same

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

valenwood_vegan

I mean... unfortunately the solution *is* to form your own group. There's also the option of kicking the tank if they can't do their job.

It sucks to get grouped with people who don't play the game to one's expectations, but such are the perils of asking the game to group you with completely random strangers as quickly as possible. These random strangers will have completely different skills, motivations, goals, understanding of game mechanics, etc.

I do dungeons with friends and guildies and communicate a little bit beforehand about what the goals and expectations of the run are, and never once has this "role drama" as I like to call it... EVER come up.

It's certainly worth talking about ways the group finder could be improved, but this has come up quite often and I don't think I've ever really seen an idea that IMO is likely to solve the fake role problem while still allowing for quick, random groups to form...

More filters could be added... but the more one filters what kind of groupmates they're looking for, the slower the group finder will become... and the closer it gets to just forming a premade group.

CP checks could be added, but CP is a very poor indicator of how good someone actually is at difficult content / a particular role.

Role "checks" could be added, but people will find ways to bypass them. Like slotting a taunt, then unslotting it as soon as they enter the dungeon. And I think many people would just stop using the group finder if it made them jump through too many hoops.

So my TL;DR (and this is just my opinion of course) is that forming your own group IS always the best solution to this problem. Either one has to put in some effort to form the group that they want, or go with the fast random group and risk random results. Hard to have it both ways.

tincanman

Thee_Cheshire_Cat wrote: »

Please, can't there be something done to prevent this, OTHER THAN having to form your own groups.

i get ques can be long if you're not a tank or healer, but my goodness, it is getting real old, real fast, dying when you don't have an ACTUAL tank in your dungeon group coz some impatient person decided to que as one to get in faster.

Joy of pugs.

It's random and that's EXACTLY what you get: speed-runners, questers, role-players, loot-everything, beginners, bored veteran players, helpful players, unhelpful players, helpless players....and fakes.....

The only problem with the random group finder is the inability of players who use it to fully accept and acknowledge what the functional and actual reality of the word random truly is.

Your options, if you insist on using the tool solo, are to vote-kick the fake - but from my limited experience most random normal groups don't care - or quit group if the vote fails.

I can only assure you that if you realise that you're dropping group most of the time it'll be a real motivator to find some guilds or other people to group up with. And once you start doing this you'll wonder why it took you so long to do so.

Alternatively, use the veteran queue: a lot less incidence and tolerance for fake roles.

Stridig

I have never been unable to complete a random dungeon because of a fake whatever. I know some people get annoyed that their elite 400 cp toon can't stand in red and do damage while someone heals them and a tank keeps them safe, but whatever.

Braffin

The main reason for "fake" tanks in dungeon finder is the comparatively low amount of players willing to queue up for this role. This is especially true for normal dungeon runs out of various reasons:

1) Most of the time tanks are expected to know mechanics (positioning of boss, add spawn locations to pull them in etc.) of the dungeon, which requires some experience with said dungeon. Thing is, more experienced players tend to advance into veteran content and won't queue up for normal runs anymore in most cases. On the other side, newer players often are advised to start grouping up as dd and learn mechanics before trying out other roles.
2) A tank build is quite useless outside of group content, so a player has to maintain a second setup specifically for dungeons. That's not something everybody is willing to do.
3) A lot of groups don't even need a tank in most normal dungeons and speedrun through it, making the gaming experience of the tank quite unpleasant, to say the least.
4) It's by far easier in this game to compensate a missing tank than missing damage (at least outside of trials and some vet dlc dungs), so most tanks prefer running with dds they know.
5) Tanks (and also healers of course) are dedicated group players and therefore are usually member of at least one guild. That's another reason why they are quite rare in random runs.

Out of this reasons every action against "fake tanks" would only result in drastically longer waiting periods for everyone using the group finder.

There is of course a solution for everyone which is in group with a "fake tank" (besides kicking and waiting again): Slot a taunt, incorporate some defensive options into your build (shields, some selfheal, a skill to boost resistances maybe) and tank the dungeon for yourself. It's really easy to do so in all normal content and it's not necessary to switch equipment.

wilykcat

What is a fake tank?

disintegr8

I refuse to take a real tank into a pug because that's when I get stuck with bad DPS and the dungeon just takes forever. I'll happily take a healer in because getting a fake tank usually means more DPS, and I can manage to keep deaths to a minimum.

When leveling, or getting the skill point on a new character, my friend and I will queue on healer or tank and DPS, that way we know we can rely on each other, and the rest of the group doesn't matter. If we're just farming gear or getting keys, two manning with both on DPS is often quicker than a random group, even in DLC dungeons.

Ragnarok0130

It's been a scourge of fake tanks in dungeons all weekend - probably 95% of the dungeons I ran to get skillpoints for my arcanist. I grew so weary of kiting the boss as a healer that now when I see a 20K "tank" I just leave the dungeon if you doesn't put on a tank spec when I ask him too.

Ragnarok0130

wilykcat wrote: »

What is a fake tank?

A DPS that queues as a tank for the faster queue pop but is not a tank, has no taunt slotted, has little health, and has no intention of performing the tank role that he queued for. Basically a self centered player who doesn't care if he ruins the dungeon experience of 3 other players.

El_Borracho

Then be a tank

ixthUA

I haven't met a single fake tank after i started tanking dungeons. Not because it concerns me, but because i like instant queues.

wilykcat

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

What is a fake tank?

A DPS that queues as a tank for the faster queue pop but is not a tank, has no taunt slotted, has little health, and has no intention of performing the tank role that he queued for. Basically a self centered player who doesn't care if he ruins the dungeon experience of 3 other players.

That's what I do when the tank goes afk 😉.

Necrotech_Master

i usually find it easier to solo the dungeon in most cases, unless the dungeon has some mechanic that prevents doing so (or just drags the fight out)

like soloing red petal bastion is possible, but that first fight is VERY annoying when your being turned into a goat 90% of the fight (the only real way to stay alive is keep moving and wear something like leeching plate lol) while a companion dps the boss lol

usually when i queue for randoms i usually only queue as my tank because of the faster queues, my dps toons have sat in queue for upwards 40 min before getting pulled into a dungeon

AvalonRanger

Fake tank is terrible. But I hate useless fake tank( low DPS and instant death frequently)
rather than skillful real DD who pretend tank role for the rapid queue.

Gray_howling_parrot

I don’t think you should be able to queue as a support role without evidence on your bar that you have something specific to that role.

Tanks should have at least one taunt on their bar and healers should have at least one heal or group shield ability in their bar at a bare minimum. Never understood why this is difficult to implement.

Braffin

Jaustink wrote: »

I don’t think you should be able to queue as a support role without evidence on your bar that you have something specific to that role.

Tanks should have at least one taunt on their bar and healers should have at least one heal or group shield ability in their bar at a bare minimum. Never understood why this is difficult to implement.

I don't think that's difficult to implement, but won't help much. People still could change their skills after entering the dungeon or simply not use all of their abilities for example.

The problem is: Fighting "fake tanks" won't increase the amount of real tanks in group finder scenarios thus leading to longer queues.

Make tanking rewarding and you'll solve the original problem to some extent. Most tanks still will prefer premades tho.

svendf

easy to stop fake ques. Do as most other Mmo´s - role checks ( healer also). The plus side more tanks in que, same for healers.

Higher player quality. Les toxic community

Gray_howling_parrot

Braffin wrote: »

Jaustink wrote: »

I don’t think you should be able to queue as a support role without evidence on your bar that you have something specific to that role.

Tanks should have at least one taunt on their bar and healers should have at least one heal or group shield ability in their bar at a bare minimum. Never understood why this is difficult to implement.

I don't think that's difficult to implement, but won't help much. People still could change their skills after entering the dungeon or simply not use all of their abilities for example.

The problem is: Fighting "fake tanks" won't increase the amount of real tanks in group finder scenarios thus leading to longer queues.

Make tanking rewarding and you'll solve the original problem to some extent. Most tanks still will prefer premades tho.

We’re going to run into this problem no matter how you look at it in this game due to the fact that you can play every role competently with every class. I believe this would definitely be a step in the right direction though no? If it locked it to your bar and required the ability to use it in some way?

With a game like ESO that is SO solo friendly and casual, not many people play together, so finding premade is more difficult than you think. I think the premade group finder is going to be huge though. People will form story dungeon groups, “premade” vet dungeon groups, pledge groups, etc. Then at that point the only people that will be in the dungeon finder will be there for the random daily where you are truly inviting randomness into your group.

Braffin

Jaustink wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Jaustink wrote: »

I don’t think you should be able to queue as a support role without evidence on your bar that you have something specific to that role.

Tanks should have at least one taunt on their bar and healers should have at least one heal or group shield ability in their bar at a bare minimum. Never understood why this is difficult to implement.

I don't think that's difficult to implement, but won't help much. People still could change their skills after entering the dungeon or simply not use all of their abilities for example.

The problem is: Fighting "fake tanks" won't increase the amount of real tanks in group finder scenarios thus leading to longer queues.

Make tanking rewarding and you'll solve the original problem to some extent. Most tanks still will prefer premades tho.

We’re going to run into this problem no matter how you look at it in this game due to the fact that you can play every role competently with every class. I believe this would definitely be a step in the right direction though no? If it locked it to your bar and required the ability to use it in some way?

With a game like ESO that is SO solo friendly and casual, not many people play together, so finding premade is more difficult than you think. I think the premade group finder is going to be huge though. People will form story dungeon groups, “premade” vet dungeon groups, pledge groups, etc. Then at that point the only people that will be in the dungeon finder will be there for the random daily where you are truly inviting randomness into your group.

Being locked to the skills I have on my bar while doing content would drastically worsen my playing experience, as I prefer eso to other mmos among other things especially because of the freedom of choice regarding character builds as well as the flexible group mechanics without need for rigid roles.

I also run in premades exclusively since I gave up on group finder years ago due to bad experiences, especially as (real) tank. Don't have any problems since then.

Don't get me wrong tho: I don't appreciate "fake tanking", but I don't want to see any solution, which also affects us others. Trying to correct human error and bad manners in pugs by implementing rigid rules for everyone will fail.

ixthUA

And without fake roles, queue times for DDs will be 30+ minutes for random dungeon, instead of 5 minutes. This is a really smart thing to do, and everybody will be happy.

AvalonRanger

Just say "LF decent tank for today's pledge" in the zone chat mode.

Don't worry. Bad fake role cheater will not reply against
those type of comment.

pelle412

svendf wrote: »

easy to stop fake ques. Do as most other Mmo´s - role checks ( healer also). The plus side more tanks in que, same for healers.

This is unfortunately impossible in ESO because a character has no role other than what they say they are in the group finder. In other games, WoW as an example, you choose a specialization that is either tank, healer, or dps. Such a thing does not exist in ESO.

svendf

ixthUA wrote: »

And without fake roles, queue times for DDs will be 30+ minutes for random dungeon, instead of 5 minutes. This is a really smart thing to do, and everybody will be happy.

Role out a healer and/tank. The coin have to be fliped around, so tanks and healers que again. The que time for DD is ofc many DD´s around.

40 DD´s in que and ten groups looking will bring problems (not enough groups looking).

svendf

pelle412 wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

easy to stop fake ques. Do as most other Mmo´s - role checks ( healer also). The plus side more tanks in que, same for healers.

This is unfortunately impossible in ESO because a character has no role other than what they say they are in the group finder. In other games, WoW as an example, you choose a specialization that is either tank, healer, or dps. Such a thing does not exist in ESO.

Those roles are in Eso. Problem is some like to skip and ZOS need to look at a solution. Where there is a problem, there is a solution.

This is not normal and way out of line, in a Mmo. People can´t get their skillpoint, can´t get their loot, their gear.

This is not a player problem eventhough it´s player created. ZOS will never get rid of healers or tanks - they are here to stay - so make it work.

You will "never" make player´s take responsibility for someting they feel ain´t their responsibility - that part is on ZOS`s table.

As it is now. I can jump in as whatever "fake". Get myself killed - run as a ghost - and continue untill Im at the main boss. I can do whatever I want without looking back at the three other group members. I can ask a like minded friend to join to stay safe from a vote kick.

Oh dear. There are so many stories out there - more crazy than the last one. People can´t take that responsibility on their shoulder or won´t.

Jierdanit

The only way to actually get people to stop fake tanking/heal is to make them want to actually play real tanks or healers in PuGs.
Currently (at least from my experience) playing in PuGs as heal or tank is often a very bad experience, because you are playing with incompetent DDs who make a dungeon you could do with decent DDs in about 15 minutes take over an hour.

DDs need to actually do reliable damage for a dungeon to be any kind of enjoyable for most tanks/healers, especially if they know it would be considerably quicker if they changed to DD setups and just didnt play as actual tanks.
DDs can carry an entire group through a (normal) dungeon a lot easier and faster than a tank or healer if they are decent and as long as that is the case people are always going to mainly play DD.

AvalonRanger

Jierdanit wrote: »

The only way to actually get people to stop fake tanking/heal is to make them want to actually play real tanks or healers in PuGs.
Currently (at least from my experience) playing in PuGs as heal or tank is often a very bad experience, because you are playing with incompetent DDs who make a dungeon you could do with decent DDs in about 15 minutes take over an hour.

DDs need to actually do reliable damage for a dungeon to be any kind of enjoyable for most tanks/healers, especially if they know it would be considerably quicker if they changed to DD setups and just didnt play as actual tanks.
DDs can carry an entire group through a (normal) dungeon a lot easier and faster than a tank or healer if they are decent and as long as that is the case people are always going to mainly play DD.

DDs need to actually do reliable damage for a dungeon to be any kind of enjoyable for most tanks/healers,...

It is rare case to meet "GOOD non brain dead real DD" in PUG dungeon though...
They regard real tank or real healer as something transporter machine to convey them until end of dungeon.

Too much helpless. This is biggest reason, why people avoid to become tank or healer role.
And why fake tank cheater never disappear from ESO.

svendf

Some are forgetting the most important "rule" and that is - you are learning as long you are new, and untill you get experience.

Doesn´t matter if you are a DD, tank or healer. Im not saying all are in content, where they belong as Eso is non linear. Linear Mmo´s should have tought everyone - eventhough you have the level for it, you still need to learn it and some do it slow - others do it a bit faster.

Everyone have been new to content and roles - some have forgotten that and being rather nasty and impatient. If those people got the same treatment, the same way, they throw at people - the chances them playing eso - would be slim.

Sometime one can get the feeling, the faster some can run a dungeon, the more important they feel. Many stick to DD, because that´s, where they feel more confident. Some move on to the other two roles to learn something new, because they are curious, tired of being a DD - shouldn´t they have a chance ? What some don´t understand - it backfires.

Casul

As long as you have a taunt and keep still i don’t care.

Gray_howling_parrot

Braffin wrote: »

Jaustink wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Jaustink wrote: »

I don’t think you should be able to queue as a support role without evidence on your bar that you have something specific to that role.

Tanks should have at least one taunt on their bar and healers should have at least one heal or group shield ability in their bar at a bare minimum. Never understood why this is difficult to implement.

I don't think that's difficult to implement, but won't help much. People still could change their skills after entering the dungeon or simply not use all of their abilities for example.

The problem is: Fighting "fake tanks" won't increase the amount of real tanks in group finder scenarios thus leading to longer queues.

Make tanking rewarding and you'll solve the original problem to some extent. Most tanks still will prefer premades tho.

We’re going to run into this problem no matter how you look at it in this game due to the fact that you can play every role competently with every class. I believe this would definitely be a step in the right direction though no? If it locked it to your bar and required the ability to use it in some way?

With a game like ESO that is SO solo friendly and casual, not many people play together, so finding premade is more difficult than you think. I think the premade group finder is going to be huge though. People will form story dungeon groups, “premade” vet dungeon groups, pledge groups, etc. Then at that point the only people that will be in the dungeon finder will be there for the random daily where you are truly inviting randomness into your group.

Being locked to the skills I have on my bar while doing content would drastically worsen my playing experience, as I prefer eso to other mmos among other things especially because of the freedom of choice regarding character builds as well as the flexible group mechanics without need for rigid roles.

I also run in premades exclusively since I gave up on group finder years ago due to bad experiences, especially as (real) tank. Don't have any problems since then.

Don't get me wrong tho: I don't appreciate "fake tanking", but I don't want to see any solution, which also affects us others. Trying to correct human error and bad manners in pugs by implementing rigid rules for everyone will fail.

I didn’t say lock your skills to your bar. I said if you queue as a tank, your taunt is locked, not the whole thing. Same with healing. Just so it’s guaranteed that they have at least 1 skill at a bare minimum