Velothi Ur-Mage’s Amulet Change

jaws343

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

ESO can still fix this next Patch update. They could just be tinkering with it. They can Increase Pen to 3,000 Decrease Crit Damage to 8-10% and leave the 15% Damage to monsters alone. Problem solved. No need to change it to Minor Force. Also, players who Hate on LA Weaving are mostly folks who just do not understand how easy it really is or what weaving even is. It's an Enigma that End Game Players have some magical Weaving ability which is just not the case. It is a simple as clicking your mouse to light attack in between the 1 second cool down of casting your abilities that is it. Using this Mythic you will still Light attack to build your Ultimate and proc your Enchantments.

I mean, I know how to weave, and I do it ok enough. But weaving on a controller on xbox is not smooth at all. Paired with lag, it can be sporadic at best.

So, this mythic bridges some of that gap. Of course, absolutely still need to weave for ult and procs. But not being punished for missing a few on a rotation by a game or controller issue is absolutely a positive of the mythic. On top of that, idk about you, but my light attacks can only hit one target at a time. A 15% damage increase to all targets I am hitting is far better than light attack damage on one target in an AOE fight.

jaws343

To add to my previous comment, I am looking at this from a solo and PUG four man content perspective. I run the same build in both since having the solo build self reliance is incredibly useful in four man content.

Currently, I either run death dealer or mora. But, my solo build has zero room for minor force. So, gaining minor force, and the little bit of pen, and 15% damage done, is a fine trade off for losing light attack damage. I am fairly certain that build will likely see a 5-10K DPS increase, which is a solid boost for losing light attack damage.

Now, would I run this on my trials setup, no. Would still run Kilt.

But that is good though. A mythic should never be a one size fits all solution to all content. Too many of them started that way. This mythic has a nice spot in the middle/bottom, and there isn't anything wrong with that. It certainly doesn't make it useless.

StarOfElyon

Soarora wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

It's useless. There are about 2000 ways to get minor force. The 15% isn't really gonna do much. And let's just be real here. The pen was fine. It'll go over cap in pve. But pvp.... The mass population for cyrodiil seems to have a max HP creep seems like everyone is at 35k HP. Plus cross healing and maras balm. Takes any fun out of pvp the first iteration was just fine

No there isn’t? In terms of skill choice (not sacrificing armor spots), I only know of two. Channeled acceleration and trap beast. The pen was not fine if people were going to be building support set choice around the pen. If you insist it’s useless, that suits me fine. I hope everyone continues to think it’s useless. It should not ever be BiS. It should not be buffed.

You're still giving up and armor slot....

Yes. One. Rather than 2 or 5. And the crit isn’t even important whatsoever, the 15% damage done is. It’s not supposed to be better than 2 5pc, monster set, arena set or 2 5pc, 1pc monster, kilt/moras/etc, arena set. It’s supposed to support a playstyle that feels unrecognized. Like how Oakensoul was supposed to support 1-bar builds and Belharza was supposed to support LA builds. It SHOULD look dead on arrival for most people. It’s not for them. It’s not even really for me either, I like weaving. I’m only so interested in it so I can have a backup (worse but still viable) build I can swap to when my wrist/hand hurts so I don’t have to quit mid content and because there’s SO many talks about hating weaving.

Why not as good as the Kilt or Moras for those in need, it serves the same purpose.

Key words: “for those in need”. If the mythic is too good, it’ll be oakenHA 2. Though this isn’t nearly as bad I would much rather velothi meta than oakensoul meta. But I don’t think it’s strong enough to overtake oakensoul where it’s currently in use so it’d just make the whole problem worse AND… important thing here… would you rather it be nerfed now or have it come out super strong, everyone uses it, oops too much use, nerf?

As a person who light attack weaves very imperfectly, I don't see it as a necessity to completing any content. I can see not being able to bar swap as a problem, definitely.

I don't even see a need for this mythic. That gap between light attack weaving and non-weaving doesn't need to be closed.

I do agree that weaving isn't actually a necessity but lots of people seem to be under the impression that it is. I was hoping that this mythic would highlight not weaving as a viable playstyle.

Yeah but I think that mythic reinforces the idea that weaving is the norm, not the exception. It's a challenging way that hardcore players squeeze out more damage; a line between casual and hardcore players that no item can cross. What everyone should do is just move on because no good can come from a mythic with this intent, in my opinion.

StarOfElyon

XSTRONG wrote: »

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

Reduced the amount of Offensive Penetration this set grants to 1650, down from 4968.
This set now grants Minor Force while worn, rather than increasing your Critical Damage done by a unique 15%.
Should have left it alone, it was fine as it was.

Wow that sucks! When did they start nerfing mythics to death before they go live in a new chapter?

Not soon enough.

Chufu

Catagami wrote: »

So I don't fully understand why everyone is saying this is dead, at least from a PvE perspective.
If you lose up to 10% damage from LA, but gain 15% damage, you'de be at 103.5% damage, and get minor force and a pen line on top of that. That should make it decently competitive with other mythics wouldn't it?
On avarage, how much dps increase do mora's or kilt add?

Well Minor Force you can also get from other sources, the easiest one beast-trap (skill). Of course it would require you to use it in an optimal way so you have a good uptime, but most players are able to do that, so the mythic doesn't provide anything unique anymore. And the pen it gives now... well if you would really need it, you could simply get the Lover Mundus which provides even more Pen than this Mythic.

The mythic was such a nice idea in order to give raid-DDs a nice amount of pen while tanks in raids could finally wear something else than the same pen-gear over and over. So I'm hoping the mythic gets a buff again, because in it's current state I will not even bother farming the lead.

Grimseth

Nuke nerf No reason to farm this mythic now. It's complete garbage.

Icy_Waffles

Went from “interesting” to “immediately no” for me!

AScarlato

Actions speak louder than words. They state goals to help mid-core players and players seeking accessibility options. So they create this Amulet and Oakensoul to lots of hype and excitement.

And then they slowly take it away leaving the ceiling untouched.

lostineternity

zos: we need more diversity

also zos: [snip] the diversity, nerf to the ground

but there is one good thing you don't have to spend your precious time to get this useless item
i've read a lot of bla bla bla bla in this topic about how good this changes, now you don't have to use barber trap
it says a lot about how people understand combat system of eso, minor force is only second reason to use trap, first one - it's one of the strongest if not strongest dot in the game, minor force is just a nice bonus.

[edited for avoiding curse filter]

BlueRaven

AScarlato wrote: »

Actions speak louder than words. They state goals to help mid-core players and players seeking accessibility options. So they create this Amulet and Oakensoul to lots of hype and excitement.

And then they slowly take it away leaving the ceiling untouched.

…So I was not alone in noticing that…

notsojuicy

i'm just not sure what the intention of the mythic was from ZOS End to begin with...

However i think the mythic was fine for the most part in week 3 and could be toned down a bit if needed
(it wasn't even overperforming in single target vs. other mythics like mora or kilt...)

4968 penetration = Good for Pugs / unorganized groups, good for accessibility where you don't have alkosh for penetration
15% crit dmg = Good for Pugs / unorganized groups, good for accessibility, because in most cases you won't have Elemental Catalyst
15% dmg done = Debatable if this is a bit overtuned and should be toned down a bit

So like it was was in week 3, it looked like an interesting mythic for unorganized groups and ofc for trash...
I mean, everyone is running kilt or mora in pve, so there would have been a new option... why not?

Not sure where the item was overtuned, but as stated, then they could still tone down the dmg done a bit
but not nerf it to the ground like it was done in week 4....

1650 penetration is a tiny bit more then 1 piece kragh/valkyn, pretty meh
minor force? you still run trap as its one of the best single target dots in the game and prebuff acceleration on trash, seems useless to me
15% dmg done stayed...

in the current form i would say not worth a minute to farm the leads for if it releases in the week 4 form,
i really hope we see a revert to week 3 and maybe touch on the dmg done portion....

esotheric greaves is also in a weird spot, looked interesting at first but the latest changes where its only against direct damage is strange.... you can have 90% block mitigation and direct dmg is not a concern,
insane dot dmg in some of the newer trials is rough, so it would make more sense that its against dot dmg...

but well, i guess will see if there will be adjustments made... fingers crossed, the game became pretty stale to me over the last 2 Years, hybridization pretty much killed build variety in pve, formerly i had stam / mag toons... nowadays its just hybrid and feels pretty much the same (that's a whole different story though and is primarily also a problem of balancing weapon skill lines and stuff, not digging in deeper into that....)

But to see a breath of fresh air with new viable gear options would be welcome for sure...

bachpain

Catagami wrote: »

So I don't fully understand why everyone is saying this is dead, at least from a PvE perspective.
If you lose up to 10% damage from LA, but gain 15% damage, you'de be at 103.5% damage, and get minor force and a pen line on top of that. That should make it decently competitive with other mythics wouldn't it?
On avarage, how much dps increase do mora's or kilt add?

You can get the minor force, a strong bleed, the hemorrhaging status effect, and 3% bonus passive weapon and spell damage from one skill on your bar. The pen is negligible, and the 3.5% damage difference you noted would be way outpaced by building any different. A different mythic like the kilt, or even death dealers fete would smoke this new mythic even with horrendous weaving. Or even no mythic at all and running a monster set and 2 5 piece sets. It isn't worth taking a slot for this mythic for what it is.

This mythic is literally like placing a wheelchair in the game and telling people who can't weave they should be happy "doing something". Instead of actually making it a viable option of play for those who struggle or prefer not to weave for whatever reason.

For that people have Oakensoul already with HA builds. This adds nothing to the game thus why people are saying it is dead.

StarOfElyon

bachpain wrote: »

Catagami wrote: »

So I don't fully understand why everyone is saying this is dead, at least from a PvE perspective.
If you lose up to 10% damage from LA, but gain 15% damage, you'de be at 103.5% damage, and get minor force and a pen line on top of that. That should make it decently competitive with other mythics wouldn't it?
On avarage, how much dps increase do mora's or kilt add?

You can get the minor force, a strong bleed, the hemorrhaging status effect, and 3% bonus passive weapon and spell damage from one skill on your bar. The pen is negligible, and the 3.5% damage difference you noted would be way outpaced by building any different. A different mythic like the kilt, or even death dealers fete would smoke this new mythic even with horrendous weaving. Or even no mythic at all and running a monster set and 2 5 piece sets. It isn't worth taking a slot for this mythic for what it is.

This mythic is literally like placing a wheelchair in the game and telling people who can't weave they should be happy "doing something". Instead of actually making it a viable option of play for those who struggle or prefer not to weave for whatever reason.

For that people have Oakensoul already with HA builds. This adds nothing to the game thus why people are saying it is dead.

It already is viable. You don't have to weave to complete content. This mythic just encourages people who aren't good at weaving to give up trying. It would become mandated for anyone who couldn't weave well, instead of allowing them to be content with weaving imperfectly but getting better over time.

notsojuicy

To think only because heavy/light attack won't do dmg you don't have to weave is a missconception in itself as you still want to proc your weapon enchants AND build ultimate... But the Mythic due to the fact la/ha don't really do damage anymore won't punish the player that hard in damage..

But as stated from bachpain, in its current form this mythic is useless you better off still running mora/kilt/monster set then this.... While it was fine for the most part in week 3 imho and it still could have been fine tuned a bit from there (e.g. lowering the dmg done modifier a bit for example).

This mythic seemed a perfect match for unorganized groups where you don't have support sets like alkosh / crimson+tremor / catalyst in place....therefor leading to accessibility while not touching the ceiling, as the ceiling is primarily driven by group composition and perfect buff uptimes... nothing would have changed on that end imho.... that's why i don't understand these changes at all.... if its to strong in certain circumstances they could still tone down the dmg done / crit dmg modifier a tad bit to fine tune the mythic...

On the otherhand, when oakensoul released it was super OP and was adjusted later.... i really hope for a revert to week 3 otherwise in terms of gear overall (trial sets and mythics) necrom seems pretty boring to me...

bachpain

notsojuicy wrote: »

i really hope for a revert to week 3 otherwise in terms of gear overall (trial sets and mythics) necrom seems pretty boring to me...

This has been my feeling as well watching the PTS cycle. New class, meh, no thanks. New gear doesn't look worth grinding for, new mythics both now nerfed to useless, what's the point? In ESO there is no "level" past CP160 our gear stays with us. These new mythics, sets, etc are in a way the "new levels" that we look to for progression with each chapter and DLC. But for the first patch in my memory, I don't see a single thing coming that actually will look like something worth progressing for.

Ecgberht_confused

Here's my thought process regarding the current state the velothi mythic, and I'll admit upfront that it's a very difficult thing to balance as it easily flips from obsolete to OP within a very small margin:

I don't think anyone would waste a mythic slot for minor force and a bit of pen. They can be the cherry on top, but the main selling point will be whether (and by how much) the 15% damage outweigh LA damage for a particular build ( which makes it irrelevant for pvp since this bonus is only against monsters, but fair enough)The most obvious build that can benefit from this is a fatecarver-centric arcanist since 60% to 70% of your time your locked in a channel with no LA. This will get the most out of the ring and on a first thought it sounds it's a good trade off and might be really worth it.

Now things get a bit more complicated when you realise that to get the most out of fatecarver it really makes sense to have only a 1 bar rotation ( with backbar perhaps only for utility). This then forces you to compare Velothi with Oaken if you'll limit yourself to 1 bar anyway. As it stands, the way I see it the comparison is that (considering only damage stats not sustain and survivability):

Velothi pros: 15% damage done + 1650 pen
Oaken pros: minor slayer (5%) + minor courage (215 W/S damage times modifiers, so about 5% damage) + free slot instead of camo hunter, which one can slot colorless pool for minor vulnerability and minor brittle as well as having 100% uptime on minor berserker without needing to flank (which is difficult when solo)+ whatever damage you get from LA, which won't be a lot if you're using fatecarver

This makes the comparison close but Oaken wins in terms of pure damage. Considering that Oaken also gives you a ton of survivability (minor aegis + minor protection + major resolve) and a lot of sustain, it makes it really really hard to find a reason to pick Velothi. It really needs something more to sweeten the deal to make it relevant for even the nichest of builds

Edit: perhaps proccing weapon damage enchant on infused backbar (about the same as major courage + whatever damage your wall of elements does) can swing the comparison in favour of Velothi. You can also slot colorless pool there. You do lose 3 seconds every 20 seconds for buffing, but I think Velothi should put out more damage in this case, though not by a lot, and Oaken still gives survivability and sustain

merpins

Increase the pen by ~1,000 and remove minor force entirely, buffing the unique damage done to 20-25% would make it fine, probably.

BlueRaven

bachpain wrote: »

notsojuicy wrote: »

i really hope for a revert to week 3 otherwise in terms of gear overall (trial sets and mythics) necrom seems pretty boring to me...

This has been my feeling as well watching the PTS cycle. New class, meh, no thanks. New gear doesn't look worth grinding for, new mythics both now nerfed to useless, what's the point? In ESO there is no "level" past CP160 our gear stays with us. These new mythics, sets, etc are in a way the "new levels" that we look to for progression with each chapter and DLC. But for the first patch in my memory, I don't see a single thing coming that actually will look like something worth progressing for.

Agreed. Necrom looks nice and may have a good narrative.
But game mechanics wise it’s a step backwards in many aspects. There seems to be a lot of “what we’re they thinking” problems with the chapter.

bachpain

I think they were thinking that everyone would be so blown away they made a new class that nothing else would matter. But, there is so much more to the game than starting over a new grind with a new toon with all of the drawbacks associated with it. I mean for some it is enough, for the rest of us, well I have no intentions of buying the chapter at this point because there is nothing that I have seen to talk me into it at all. They have geared everything toward this new mantra channeled attacks and standing still for buffs as opposed to moving etc. To me it is a confusing mess that doesn't add to the game for me at all. Time will tell like always.

IrishOphidia

Syiccal wrote: »

Ppl that weave perfectly wouldn't use this any way as even before the hammer those that weave perfect would take a dps hit wearing it. All they have done is penalise those that don't want to light att weave or can't quiet manage it. It was fine as it was

It was actually being used by everyone from endgame trial groups to mid tier players.

IrishOphidia

Soarora wrote: »

But how does it hurt anyone that the crit was changed to minor force? If anything I think this helps because 100% uptime instead of relying on trap. Any other gain of crit is through things like medium armor, race, cp, other player support, weapon trait…

What do you mean “relying on trap” Barbed Trap is one of the top 5 hardest hitting single target DoTs in the game. If you’re dropping trap then you are literally choosing to gimp your own DPS. Bro, I read your replies on these threads and I’m convinced that you enjoy performing at a subpar level.

lostineternity

bachpain wrote: »

I think they were thinking that everyone would be so blown away they made a new class that nothing else would matter. But, there is so much more to the game than starting over a new grind with a new toon with all of the drawbacks associated with it. I mean for some it is enough, for the rest of us, well I have no intentions of buying the chapter at this point because there is nothing that I have seen to talk me into it at all. They have geared everything toward this new mantra channeled attacks and standing still for buffs as opposed to moving etc. To me it is a confusing mess that doesn't add to the game for me at all. Time will tell like always.

I've made a mistake and preordered Necrom chapter, critical failure from my side. Never will do this again. Thanks ZOS for the lesson.

bachpain

I learned that lesson with U33 launch fiasco. I preordered it and at launch the game was so broken I couldn't play for 2 weeks so I got my Chapter purchase refunded and canceled my sub until they got their act together.

BaalMelqartu

Responded about this in another post and said I MIGHT still try playing with it but did not read the second change carefully enough.
This was one of the top three things I was most excited for in the expansion. Now I have zero interest in it.
In general, I am for anything that creates new approaches to combat style and choices. This opened some doors. Now it's just a painting of a door on a wall, for me.

notsojuicy

BaalMelqartu wrote: »

Responded about this in another post and said I MIGHT still try playing with it but did not read the second change carefully enough.
This was one of the top three things I was most excited for in the expansion. Now I have zero interest in it.
In general, I am for anything that creates new approaches to combat style and choices. This opened some doors. Now it's just a painting of a door on a wall, for me.

True, to get back to the topic, while this mythic was interesting in week 3 they completely gutted it in week4 with their changes.... it really could have been a mythic pointed toward unorganized groups with the buff it provided.... in its actual state from week4 you don't even need to consider it as an option...

LioraValkyrie

The Velothi amulet is essentially made for Arcanists with a book-beam build. As an Arcanist dps, you will spend at least half your time channeling the beam, thus being unable to light attack. As things are tuned currently, the Arcanist needs this mythic to remain competitive with other classes' dps ceiling.

It also provides a middle ground between Oakensoul and meta dps builds, so it's win/win. I never liked the fact that almost everyone I know doing under 100k on the dummy has changed to lazy-attack sorcs to IMPROVE their dps in content. They put some time and effort into learning their classes and producing 90-100k parses, and overnight it was superseded by holding LMB.

Now there's the Arcanist - with the Velothi amulet you can achieve over 105k on the dummy, almost all AoE, with 1 bar using melee weapons and actual skills in a meaningful rotation. It will offer people who have outgrown Oakensoul, but still can't master a top-tier parse, a place to go.

I'm pretty sure that's the whole idea behind this new class and mythic. Neither were intended to raise the ceiling, but they will let some of the better Oakensoulers get off the floor. It's not meant to remove the need for support sets in dungeons and trials... a single support can get medium armor dps to pen cap in any group content (it seems like people don't realise this, so I'll need to make a video on it soon).

So that's my take on it: the Velothi amulet was made for the Arcanist, and specifically to create a dps tier above Oakensoul but below the game-wide ceiling. Before the nerf, it allowed for lazy group composition - 'casual' group composition is not a skill issue, it's a knowledge and mindset issue. Pre-nerf, the amulet rewarded lazy composition and as such is not good for the longevity of the game. Now, it allows people to progress from Oakensouler to Book-Beamer.

I think it's perfect as it is.

Zezin

Catagami wrote: »

So I don't fully understand why everyone is saying this is dead, at least from a PvE perspective.
If you lose up to 10% damage from LA, but gain 15% damage, you'de be at 103.5% damage, and get minor force and a pen line on top of that. That should make it decently competitive with other mythics wouldn't it?
On avarage, how much dps increase do mora's or kilt add?

Very simple really, you can only have one mythic, and as you can only have one then it suddenly becomes very weak compared to the other choices we already have available. From a PvE perspective it will be weaker than most others and for pvp it will be useless as the damage done is only to monsters.

bachpain

LioraValkyrie wrote: »

The Velothi amulet is essentially made for Arcanists with a book-beam build. As an Arcanist dps, you will spend at least half your time channeling the beam, thus being unable to light attack. As things are tuned currently, the Arcanist needs this mythic to remain competitive with other classes' dps ceiling.

It also provides a middle ground between Oakensoul and meta dps builds, so it's win/win. I never liked the fact that almost everyone I know doing under 100k on the dummy has changed to lazy-attack sorcs to IMPROVE their dps in content. They put some time and effort into learning their classes and producing 90-100k parses, and overnight it was superseded by holding LMB.

Now there's the Arcanist - with the Velothi amulet you can achieve over 105k on the dummy, almost all AoE, with 1 bar using melee weapons and actual skills in a meaningful rotation. It will offer people who have outgrown Oakensoul, but still can't master a top-tier parse, a place to go.

I'm pretty sure that's the whole idea behind this new class and mythic. Neither were intended to raise the ceiling, but they will let some of the better Oakensoulers get off the floor. It's not meant to remove the need for support sets in dungeons and trials... a single support can get medium armor dps to pen cap in any group content (it seems like people don't realise this, so I'll need to make a video on it soon).

So that's my take on it: the Velothi amulet was made for the Arcanist, and specifically to create a dps tier above Oakensoul but below the game-wide ceiling. Before the nerf, it allowed for lazy group composition - 'casual' group composition is not a skill issue, it's a knowledge and mindset issue. Pre-nerf, the amulet rewarded lazy composition and as such is not good for the longevity of the game. Now, it allows people to progress from Oakensouler to Book-Beamer.

I think it's perfect as it is.

So here again is my point. An entire chapter centered around one thing--a new class. The mythics, the content, everything. Don't you think they are missing the mark with the broader market of the rest of the game who, I don't know, just want to advance their own characters? Making a mythic for one class doing one role is the pinnacle of insulting your customer base in an MMO that is built on creativity of combining items and sets. So if that is their intended result for this mythic, making it a MUST HAVE for their new character to be viable, then they really need a new look into how to make the game work because that is far from perfect. It is certainly not good for the longevity of the game if that is an indication of their mindset of how classes should be.

Dr_Con

Soarora wrote: »

I think it’s great, honestly. It shouldn’t have so much power that people would want to use it when they weave perfectly. It shouldn’t look great to use. I’ll still be messing around with it and the change to minor force is actually a blessing for me as now the mythic deals with two of my problems: trap uptimes and in-content weaving.

the problem with this mythic is that you don't get anything in addition to the crutch passive, other mythics (like Kilt) enable you to push past limits. A player who does better with this mythic may just as well do better with Kilt, but the main problem is they won't have the opportunity to learn the core combat mechanics due to the mythic's limitations. It may be useful for PVP, but in content it's going to be lackluster.

bachpain

The only one that gets any actual usefulness is the Arcanist. That is just wrong on all levels. It is like the arcanist is the new answer to the stand there and channel stuff combat.