Velothi Ur-Mage’s Amulet Change

Tanis-Stormbinder

Reduced the amount of Offensive Penetration this set grants to 1650, down from 4968.
This set now grants Minor Force while worn, rather than increasing your Critical Damage done by a unique 15%.
Should have left it alone, it was fine as it was.

notyuu

Yeah, it's now gone from "ooh, intresting might be able to figure something out with this when I get it" to "....well that's the planned build made into trash...never gonna touch this piece of junk"

I was honestly looking fowards to this mythic and playing around its limitations, however with these changes if they stay it's going to be another dead on arrival dud, like the Belharza's band, Dov-Rah sabatons, pearsl of ehlonfey, shapeshifters chain and syraben's ward, which is a damn shame

Tanis-Stormbinder

Agree, word use to describe this Mythic is dull and unexciting.

Syiccal

Its not worth the time to get it now as won't be used at all by any one

Soarora

I think it’s great, honestly. It shouldn’t have so much power that people would want to use it when they weave perfectly. It shouldn’t look great to use. I’ll still be messing around with it and the change to minor force is actually a blessing for me as now the mythic deals with two of my problems: trap uptimes and in-content weaving.

Syiccal

Ppl that weave perfectly wouldn't use this any way as even before the hammer those that weave perfect would take a dps hit wearing it. All they have done is penalise those that don't want to light att weave or can't quiet manage it. It was fine as it was

Chufu

I'm also quite sad about the change for this Mythic.

It was a new and interesting combination before, especially providing that much penetration, because for a raidgroup in PvE it allows the DDs to cover their own needed Pen and for example get rid of Crimson Oath on the tank, etc. I quite liked it. In addition to that it favored people who are not that strong with Light or Heavy Attack weaving and allows them to do a good amount of damage too.

Now with the changes it's not something anymore any DD will consider, other Mythics/Sets are much better than this Mythic now. Sad.

jaws343

I mean, it is still rather strong. It effectively raises the floor for players who cannot weave well. Gives you a passive 100% uptime source of minor force, a little bit of pen, and a damage increase to everything that isn't light attacks.

I was planning on switching to it on my solo build, still plan to do so since the damage boost is great for AOE or kiting when you aren't really effectively light attacking anyways.

Soarora

Syiccal wrote: »

Ppl that weave perfectly wouldn't use this any way as even before the hammer those that weave perfect would take a dps hit wearing it. All they have done is penalise those that don't want to light att weave or can't quiet manage it. It was fine as it was

I highly doubt that. Look at all the comments coming out now about how it won’t be good for trial teams to build around anymore. It should never be something built around as a group. It’s a mythic to support a playstyle, it should not become another oakensoul (everyone use this mythic because we’re dropping support sets, do it or don’t come/don’t get your buffs). I’ve been parsing with the mythic and I don’t think this change will effect a thing. Just the loss of penetration for solo players.

Tanis-Stormbinder

The loss of the unique buff will lower the dps of those who don't perfect light weave. Isn't that what it was created for?

Dragonredux

Right now this mythic is following the Oakensoul pattern again

Stage 1) Mythic comes with unnamed buffs

Stage 2) Nerf the mythic with named buffs to make it unappealing (we are here)

Stage 3) Overbuff it before live

Stage 4) Wait a patch or two

Stage 5) Nerf Mythic

Soarora

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

The loss of the unique buff will lower the dps of those who don't perfect light weave. Isn't that what it was created for?

It’s critical damage, which is capped and affected by anything other than weaving. The important part of the mythic is the 15% bonus to monsters. Which is still there.

Edit: I went back and read the notes again, are people thinking they removed the 15% bonus to monsters and replaced it with minor force? I could see how people could read that but that’s not what’s being said.

Tanis-Stormbinder

I tested the Mythic extensively it wasn't over performing. Lowering the Penetration wasn't a bad call but removing the unique buff hurts those who could really use this item.

Soarora

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

I tested the Mythic extensively it wasn't over performing. Lowering the Penetration wasn't a bad call but removing the unique buff hurts those who could really use this item.

But how does it hurt anyone that the crit was changed to minor force? If anything I think this helps because 100% uptime instead of relying on trap. Any other gain of crit is through things like medium armor, race, cp, other player support, weapon trait…

MashmalloMan

Dead on arrival.. I don't understand, do they forget that you're not just trading light attacks.. you're trading 1/12 of your equipment slots and the chance to use any other, better mythic. Guess it still works for pve somewhat with the monster DMG.

It's a little better than a 1 piece monster pen shoulder at this point lol

Soarora

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dead on arrival.. I don't understand, do they forget that you're not just trading light attacks.. you're trading 1/12 of your equipment slots and the chance to use any other, better mythic.

It's a little better than a 1 piece monster pen shoulder at this point lol

That’s the point. It’s still very much usable but it should NOT be BiS. Lots of things are actually viable but aren’t widely/popularly used by endgamers, this should be one of them.

f047ys3v3n

On the changes:

decrease in pen - This effects PVP a lot, PVE solo a little, and PVE in a group not at all. Realistically all trials groups all have max pen even if in medium armor. This is an unfortunate change for HM vSS downstairs and vCR+3 crystals, where dps can still be a concern but matters not anywhere else in raids. It probably makes sense from a PVP sense as this item was looking like a pretty powerful way to try to generate one shots with things like a charged up crit snipe. Really, this change only matters in PVE on in two HM situations in the whole game though.

Minor force change - There are a lot of ways to get to crit multiplier cap in PVE. This was going to provide even more ways. Realistically, decreasing this and changing it to a named buff just decreases the number of choices in viable builds. There would be more viable builds by adding this new way to get to max cap but It wouldn't really increase the max damage of the top builds as there is a cap and all the top builds will be at that cap one way or another. This change might decrease problems in PVP some but in PVE it really just decreases the number of viable builds, not the power of the top ones and therefore isn't a great change from a PVE standpoint. We are not at a time when there are a lot of viable builds running about right now. Really, there are only a couple and that's a shame.

What I think of the ring now:
My thoughts before was that it was going to be a nice boost to the non Oaken HA build and by adding a different option to get to crit multiplier cap would make a lot more of those builds viable. It would be a genuinely powerful mythic 2-bars could use. Oaken adds a lot to HA builds whereas 2-bar builds really don't get much from any available mythic. Kilt is great on a dummy but often Meh in actual fights and Mora's is reliable but basically just a 5 piece strength buff with an epic grid to both get it and level it up. All these options really pale compared to the Oaken ring and are part of why those builds have become so dominate.

As it sits now, I really don't see the new amulet adding much choice as far as builds go. From a pure power standpoint, It doesn't offer any crit chance itself wheres the other two options add a good bit. That is a big downside will strip 4% or so out of your damage output compared to the existing mythic options because of it. Since the ring also still strips out your LA damage that takes another 8% out of your dps. +15% dps still makes up for this -8% and -4% dps but it's nothing to get excited about whereas the added build diversity with the original version was more interesting. I guess that if you want to totally forgo a build that involves weaving and just pound the next skill cast button and your not wearing a set like whirl that needs LA's to proc this gives you an option. Not sure that is a win though. I guess it's more complex than holding down one button for what that is worth. Given the minimal max dps increase I'll prolly wear the necklace, but I'm not excited about it.

tsaescishoeshiner

I could see it overperforming in some setups before, but the current numbers seem a bit useless. I was hoping to use it for pvp or non-weaving DPS builds.

The Minor Force change is fine, I just wish something made up for the loss of penetration.

acastanza_ESO

"This item let you reasonably compete with Lightning Staff heavy attacks, and we didn't like that so we made it useless, you want accessibility, use the one allowed weapon option" - ZOS.

Soarora

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

"This item let you reasonably compete with Lightning Staff heavy attacks, and we didn't like that so we made it useless, you want accessibility, use the one allowed weapon option" - ZOS.

Lightning oakenHA is the thing that needs adjusting. Slapping another “you HAVE to use this” mythic into endgame just makes the problem even worse. It’d become that in cases where oakenHA isn’t best for least effort, you have to use velothi.

Shepoffire

It's useless. There are about 2000 ways to get minor force. The 15% isn't really gonna do much. And let's just be real here. The pen was fine. It'll go over cap in pve. But pvp.... The mass population for cyrodiil seems to have a max HP creep seems like everyone is at 35k HP. Plus cross healing and maras balm. Takes any fun out of pvp the first iteration was just fine

Soarora

Shepoffire wrote: »

It's useless. There are about 2000 ways to get minor force. The 15% isn't really gonna do much. And let's just be real here. The pen was fine. It'll go over cap in pve. But pvp.... The mass population for cyrodiil seems to have a max HP creep seems like everyone is at 35k HP. Plus cross healing and maras balm. Takes any fun out of pvp the first iteration was just fine

No there isn’t? In terms of skill choice (not sacrificing armor spots), I only know of two. Channeled acceleration and trap beast. The pen was not fine if people were going to be building support set choice around the pen. If you insist it’s useless, that suits me fine. I hope everyone continues to think it’s useless. It should not ever be BiS. It should not be buffed.

ssewallb14_ESO

If the problem was AoE setups, how about making the set apply a debuff instead? Something like:

"When you deal direct single target damage, you deal X% more damage, Y% more critical damage, and 99% less heavy and light attack damage to the target for 20 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds."

Minor force is an extremely easy buff to get just by casting a skill. It's a shame to see this set get nuked when it would've been a nice option for people wanting accessibility but don't want to play an Oakensoul/HA setup.

Shepoffire

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

It's useless. There are about 2000 ways to get minor force. The 15% isn't really gonna do much. And let's just be real here. The pen was fine. It'll go over cap in pve. But pvp.... The mass population for cyrodiil seems to have a max HP creep seems like everyone is at 35k HP. Plus cross healing and maras balm. Takes any fun out of pvp the first iteration was just fine

No there isn’t? In terms of skill choice (not sacrificing armor spots), I only know of two. Channeled acceleration and trap beast. The pen was not fine if people were going to be building support set choice around the pen. If you insist it’s useless, that suits me fine. I hope everyone continues to think it’s useless. It should not ever be BiS. It should not be buffed.

You're still giving up and armor slot....

Tanis-Stormbinder

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

It's useless. There are about 2000 ways to get minor force. The 15% isn't really gonna do much. And let's just be real here. The pen was fine. It'll go over cap in pve. But pvp.... The mass population for cyrodiil seems to have a max HP creep seems like everyone is at 35k HP. Plus cross healing and maras balm. Takes any fun out of pvp the first iteration was just fine

No there isn’t? In terms of skill choice (not sacrificing armor spots), I only know of two. Channeled acceleration and trap beast. The pen was not fine if people were going to be building support set choice around the pen. If you insist it’s useless, that suits me fine. I hope everyone continues to think it’s useless. It should not ever be BiS. It should not be buffed.

You're still giving up and armor slot....

Agree the lost of a armor slot makes it a loss in dps, it need something more to make the loss worthwhile.

Soarora

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

It's useless. There are about 2000 ways to get minor force. The 15% isn't really gonna do much. And let's just be real here. The pen was fine. It'll go over cap in pve. But pvp.... The mass population for cyrodiil seems to have a max HP creep seems like everyone is at 35k HP. Plus cross healing and maras balm. Takes any fun out of pvp the first iteration was just fine

No there isn’t? In terms of skill choice (not sacrificing armor spots), I only know of two. Channeled acceleration and trap beast. The pen was not fine if people were going to be building support set choice around the pen. If you insist it’s useless, that suits me fine. I hope everyone continues to think it’s useless. It should not ever be BiS. It should not be buffed.

You're still giving up and armor slot....

Yes. One. Rather than 2 or 5. And the crit isn’t even important whatsoever, the 15% damage done is. It’s not supposed to be better than 2 5pc, monster set, arena set or 2 5pc, 1pc monster, kilt/moras/etc, arena set. It’s supposed to support a playstyle that feels unrecognized. Like how Oakensoul was supposed to support 1-bar builds and Belharza was supposed to support LA builds. It SHOULD look dead on arrival for most people. It’s not for them. It’s not even really for me either, I like weaving. I’m only so interested in it so I can have a backup (worse but still viable) build I can swap to when my wrist/hand hurts so I don’t have to quit mid content and because there’s SO many talks about hating weaving.

BasP

I only tested the Amulet on a simple Khajiit Stamina Arcanist build intended for soloing and I definitely looked forward to using it for the times I wouldn't need the Ring of the Pale Order. My enthusiasm has been tempered though.

In non-trial gear (Pillar's and Deadly Strike) I could consistently do 57K DPS on a 6M Dummy with the Amulet and a sloppy rotation before these changes. It has dropped to 51K though and replacing Barbed Trap with another skill only lead to a small DPS loss from the limited tests I've done thus far. Oh well, it still beats using something like Stormfist.

That said, I wouldn't mind if the penetration was increased a bit and Minor Force was changed into a unique 10% Crit Damage buff or something.

Tanis-Stormbinder

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

It's useless. There are about 2000 ways to get minor force. The 15% isn't really gonna do much. And let's just be real here. The pen was fine. It'll go over cap in pve. But pvp.... The mass population for cyrodiil seems to have a max HP creep seems like everyone is at 35k HP. Plus cross healing and maras balm. Takes any fun out of pvp the first iteration was just fine

No there isn’t? In terms of skill choice (not sacrificing armor spots), I only know of two. Channeled acceleration and trap beast. The pen was not fine if people were going to be building support set choice around the pen. If you insist it’s useless, that suits me fine. I hope everyone continues to think it’s useless. It should not ever be BiS. It should not be buffed.

You're still giving up and armor slot....

Yes. One. Rather than 2 or 5. And the crit isn’t even important whatsoever, the 15% damage done is. It’s not supposed to be better than 2 5pc, monster set, arena set or 2 5pc, 1pc monster, kilt/moras/etc, arena set. It’s supposed to support a playstyle that feels unrecognized. Like how Oakensoul was supposed to support 1-bar builds and Belharza was supposed to support LA builds. It SHOULD look dead on arrival for most people. It’s not for them. It’s not even really for me either, I like weaving. I’m only so interested in it so I can have a backup (worse but still viable) build I can swap to when my wrist/hand hurts so I don’t have to quit mid content and because there’s SO many talks about hating weaving.

Why not as good as the Kilt or Moras for those in need, it serves the same purpose.

Razorruk

According to ZOS, set was too strong in Trash fights... so they changed it to where its bad for most boss fights, and would only ever be considered for Trash in competent groups? Okay

Dark_Lord_Kuro

It look like a waste of time now...i was so exited for this since i dislike light attack but now im not even sure i want to farm its lead.

Greystag

Soarora wrote: »

the change to minor force is actually a blessing for me as now the mythic deals with two of my problems: trap uptimes and in-content weaving.

Even if you weren't using trap with it, it's still 5% less crit damage with the change... And we already have item sets that provide that buff if you need the extra skill slot or don't want to use it.

On a side note, with the main issue this mythic has being AoE damage, why not make its buffs apply only when attacking a single target? Make it a debuff tied to your LAs, similar to how Frostbite increases your damage done to an enemy you've chilled.