Ball groups destroying everything fun about pvp

TechMaybeHic

OBJnoob wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Doesn't really do much now with friendly target Markers. As is; I see more than 12 balled up often.

SimonThesis wrote: »

All that did was buff ballgroups more because the pugs weren't as organized. Ballgroups have only ever run 12ish anyway and they're all in comms. I think bringing the group size back to 24 would help better organize the pugs. Your more likely to kill a ballgroup with 24 random people in offmeta sets than 12.

Fair enough gents. I find your responses a little confusing honestly but fair enough. For one thing @TechMaybeHic if target markers and standing nearby is all you need to do then it just kinda compounds my opinion that good ballgroups have skill and deserve to do what they do. The Zerg, faction stack, or whatever, has all the tools they need. They can even heal eachother, can they not? The fact that they choose not to kinda falls into the realm of "L2P," doesn't it? I think maybe actually grouping has some more benefits than you're considering. It is necessary for most group buff sets, for one thing. But I digress. I didn't like the idea either. And I'm not trying to drag you into a debate you weren't having.

@SimonThesis If this thread is about the exponential power advantage that ballGROUPS have then I would suspect cutting their number in half, for example, would have a much greater impact on them than splintering a bunch of already disorganized groups. You do realize that if you make the group size 24 again then there will be 24-man ballgroups, don't you?

Pugs even following crown, are not building to play that way. You keep essentially saying "play my way" and a players do not want to just build that way. Most want to play their own character.


On the flip side, nobody is saying ball groups should not be able to play the way they want. They are just saying some mechanics like HOT stacking are too potent in that layout.

It's sort of like saying I don't think people should not play DK, but maybe, just maybe; corrosive is giving too much to the DK strength. Or should we just say "well why doesn't everyone just play DK then?"

Edit: and FWIW; I wouldn't like zergs all spamming cross heals either

ShadowProc

Cloudrest wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Depending on which zone chat leaders are on, a ball group can kill in the high 100's (700+) if not close to 1000 in 1 session. It also doesn't help that the ball groups size allows it to actually threaten the map which demands a response from the zerg (which is something that solos and small scale cannot do at the same scale and especially in the same short timeframe).

I am yet to see a good counter argument for this factor to tone down ball groups power.

(The following is not directed at you cloud, but more in general)

Yes, solos and small scale can troll the map, but all they can reliably threaten are the resources or maybe the outposts, which can be dealt with much faster and for much less cost to the rest of the map due to there being 3 separate resources to ride between and flip to cut a keep (much slower) and the outer (AP) keeps acting as pseudo bypasses for the outposts and the outposts having short rides from their neighboring keeps for when you need to retake them. This is unlike a ball group that can flag a main keep and flip its flags within minutes if not responded to with enough numbers and with enough early warning.

Ball groups basically hold the map hostage to their whims or risk losing the map entirely (since they will flip keeps faster than the zerg can and you can bet that they will flip as many keeps as required then come wipe the zerg should the zerg choose to ignore the ball group).

It's a lose lose situation for the other factions when a ball group logs on, simply because not only do those factions need to deal with the ball group taking their keeps, but the ball groups faction still has their own zerg also pushing the map (which is basically empty if your zerg goes to deal with the ball group) at the same time.
This is why ball groups need toning down and why they are so frustrating to play against and why they are not comparable to solos or small scale. It has gotten to the stage where there's nothing you can do when they are on, you either simply log off or try to defend what you can against what is essentially the power equivalent to 2 factions attacking you at the same time (or 3 factions worth of power against 1 if the 3rd faction follows the ball groups faction to push your faction, which is often the case) because to simply ignore them is to have the same effect as logging off, you lose the entire map in less than an hour.

Oh, don't worry-- you and I both agree that Ballgroups need to be toned down. You and I both haven't seen a good counter argument to toning down their power because it simply doesn't exist. There's people trying to say it isn't broken (it is) or that they'll find something more broken because they have "good" theorycrafters-- they won't. There's simply nothing in ESO that compares to stacking that much healing ontop of one another atm.

Good point about Ballgroups being able to hold the entire map-- and the entire faction, hostage. Smallscales can certainly influence the map and hold up a zerg, but around 20 players is the upper limit for a good smallscale to tank with good healing and good line of sight. 30 is definitely pushing it. Ballgroups often require a faction stack to deal with them running around Faregyl or Arrius or Glademist for an hour, and even then, sometimes it still isn't enough, and people end up gated with no scrolls when the rest of the zerg comes to stack ontop of the Ballgroup and they end up logging off, frustrated. It's not comparable at all to 1vXers or Smallscales. Smallscales also have to be playing optimally when heavily outnumbered like that; one mistake will cause a wipe. Ballgroups can run around infinitely with their healing, and if someone does somehow die, they have a res ult-- no worries!

I don't even bother trying to fight Ballgroups 95% of the time. I learned that lesson years ago. However, I don't even have to be near them to have them ruining my gameplay; if there's one or more ballgroups online, I can simply feel the delay in the server's response to casting my abilities. They need nerfed, period. It'll be much healthier for the game if they're easier to take down for zergs. It'll also lessen the lag if it requires less people to respond to them, and if so much healing isn't being spammed.

The solution is limiting same-morph healing to two stacks of a unique heal on a player at the same time. You can have two echoing vigors, two radiating regenerations, two polar winds, two healing orbs healing you at the same time, so on and so forth- that'd be pretty balanced, I think.

Will it mean Ballgroups will run more dedicated healers and supports to be just as survivable? Sure, probably, but they'll sacrifice damage by doing so, which achieves the goal of tuning them down regardless.

Will it mean people will have to run more selfish heals and shields? Sure, probably, but that'll mean it'll require more of a brain to play in one of these groups, and it leaves a lot more room open for personal error when someone inevitably makes a mistake, causing wipes.

Will smallscale also take a hit? Yeah, probably. But the game will be in a much healthier state for 90% of the PvP population, which is what the game SHOULD be balanced around. Not us 1%ers. We'll adapt. So will the Ballgroups, sure, but things won't be as absurdly one-sided as it is right now.

Also disable crosshealing outside of group again, please. That was an amazing week in Cyrodiil.

There's nothing to be done. A lot of small scalers were in ball groups before and reached a state of enlightenment. One can only hope the same ones arguing now, with no real argument, can reach the same.

OBJnoob

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Pugs even following crown, are not building to play that way. You keep essentially saying "play my way" and a players do not want to just build that way. Most want to play their own character.

On the flip side, nobody is saying ball groups should not be able to play the way they want. They are just saying some mechanics like HOT stacking are too potent in that layout.

It's sort of like saying I don't think people should not play DK, but maybe, just maybe; corrosive is giving too much to the DK strength. Or should we just say "well why doesn't everyone just play DK then?"

Edit: and FWIW; I wouldn't like zergs all spamming cross heals either

Well. I'm not trying to tell people how to play. The game offers lots of ways to play and lots of variable group sizes and compositions. The choice is for every person to make. But that doesn't change the fact that there's a meta. You can't expect to choose how you want to play and be competitive all the time.

If I start a post talking about how I want to tank vet trials and I'm wearing hundings and shacklebreaker, cuz that's how I choose to play, what is the general advice going to be?

If I start a post talking about how I want to make my ranged swallow soul magblade into a 1vXer what is the general advice going to be?

At a certain point, if you want to be competitive, you have to sacrifice what you want for what works. That's all I'm saying. I'm just telling you what the solution is not forcing you to take it.

But if advice goes untaken then I'll probably never tank vet trials. My swallow soulblade will probably never X, and two small-scale groups who can each normally kill groups of 20 will (working together but with no actual verbal cross communication,) probably not take down a ballgroup.

Because the solo meta only really works against people that don't know what they're doing. If you encounter a good small-scale you'll probably get taken out. And if you encounter another solo such as yourself you'll probably stalemate. Same for smallscalers. Same for ballgroups. And this is offensive for small-scalers to hear because they DO know what they're doing. They just happen to be outnumbered by people who also know what they're doing.

Theres nothing broken or multiplicative about HoT stacking. 12 is exactly 1 more than 11, and 5 is exactly 1 more than 4. The desire to limit HoT stacks to, let's say 5, is basically like saying "we think 5 is the ideal group and if you have more than that we demand you be punished by diminishing returns." Only the returns don't diminish. They vanish.

Isn't THAT more like forcing people how to play than my suggesting that people form larger groups if they want to beat large groups of meta players?

Meh. I've been talking about this too long I doubt any of that flowed very well or made sense. Sorry. It's hard to explain something when it seems so simple to you but nobody else gets it. And I know that's how some of you feel about me. -shrug-

TechMaybeHic

OBJnoob wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Pugs even following crown, are not building to play that way. You keep essentially saying "play my way" and a players do not want to just build that way. Most want to play their own character.

On the flip side, nobody is saying ball groups should not be able to play the way they want. They are just saying some mechanics like HOT stacking are too potent in that layout.

It's sort of like saying I don't think people should not play DK, but maybe, just maybe; corrosive is giving too much to the DK strength. Or should we just say "well why doesn't everyone just play DK then?"

Edit: and FWIW; I wouldn't like zergs all spamming cross heals either

Well. I'm not trying to tell people how to play. The game offers lots of ways to play and lots of variable group sizes and compositions. The choice is for every person to make. But that doesn't change the fact that there's a meta. You can't expect to choose how you want to play and be competitive all the time.

If I start a post talking about how I want to tank vet trials and I'm wearing hundings and shacklebreaker, cuz that's how I choose to play, what is the general advice going to be?

If I start a post talking about how I want to make my ranged swallow soul magblade into a 1vXer what is the general advice going to be?

At a certain point, if you want to be competitive, you have to sacrifice what you want for what works. That's all I'm saying. I'm just telling you what the solution is not forcing you to take it.

But if advice goes untaken then I'll probably never tank vet trials. My swallow soulblade will probably never X, and two small-scale groups who can each normally kill groups of 20 will (working together but with no actual verbal cross communication,) probably not take down a ballgroup.

Because the solo meta only really works against people that don't know what they're doing. If you encounter a good small-scale you'll probably get taken out. And if you encounter another solo such as yourself you'll probably stalemate. Same for smallscalers. Same for ballgroups. And this is offensive for small-scalers to hear because they DO know what they're doing. They just happen to be outnumbered by people who also know what they're doing.

Theres nothing broken or multiplicative about HoT stacking. 12 is exactly 1 more than 11, and 5 is exactly 1 more than 4. The desire to limit HoT stacks to, let's say 5, is basically like saying "we think 5 is the ideal group and if you have more than that we demand you be punished by diminishing returns." Only the returns don't diminish. They vanish.

Isn't THAT more like forcing people how to play than my suggesting that people form larger groups if they want to beat large groups of meta players?

Meh. I've been talking about this too long I doubt any of that flowed very well or made sense. Sorry. It's hard to explain something when it seems so simple to you but nobody else gets it. And I know that's how some of you feel about me. -shrug-

Made perfect sense. If you want to be effective, don't play necro, play DK. We got that

SimonThesis

SimonThesis wrote: »

You do realize that if you make the group size 24 again then there will be 24-man ballgroups, don't you?

When group size was 24, Drac and other prominent ballgroups only ran 10-12.

SimonThesis

Cloudrest wrote: »

The only "skill" involved in Ballgrouping is the calls of the crown/group lead; otherwise, you can practically turn your brain off as a DPS. Heal/support requires you to at least know what's going on.

Have to disagree with this one, hardcore ballgroupers dps & healers are required to weave in heavy cyro lag for an entire 3hr raid, their cpm will then be checked after raid. They are required to always be on orb cooldown and never miss an orb. Dps are expected to perfectly time proxy and curse/shalkes/delayed damage timers every time. Healers are expected to have the correct ratio of RR to Echoing casts. Everyone with a synergy is expected to be in position to cast synergies on every stack. After raid, everyone's block percentages are checked, supports buff uptimes are checked, etc. If anyone lets a buff run out for even a second it will be called out etc. Videos are taken of the raid to check everyone's performance. Its not something anyone from zone can easily do.

Stamicka

SimonThesis wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

The only "skill" involved in Ballgrouping is the calls of the crown/group lead; otherwise, you can practically turn your brain off as a DPS. Heal/support requires you to at least know what's going on.

Have to disagree with this one, hardcore ballgroupers dps & healers are required to weave in heavy cyro lag for an entire 3hr raid, their cpm will then be checked after raid. They are required to always be on orb cooldown and never miss an orb. Dps are expected to perfectly time proxy and curse/shalkes/delayed damage timers every time. Healers are expected to have the correct ratio of RR to Echoing casts. Everyone with a synergy is expected to be in position to cast synergies on every stack. After raid, everyone's block percentages are checked, supports buff uptimes are checked, etc. If anyone lets a buff run out for even a second it will be called out etc. Videos are taken of the raid to check everyone's performance. Its not something anyone from zone can easily do.

Lol. You really think all ball groups operate this way? Hardly any of this is necessary anyway.

The reality is, you stack max health and heals, you follow your group lead, and you ult when told.

You mess up? Don’t worry. Hardly anything will one shot you when you have 38k health. Ten different heal over time effects can instantly erase any damage you’ve taken.

At this point sets do all of the other work for you. You don’t need to wait for groups to hard stack cause Dark Convergence or Rush of Agony (probably both) stack them for you. You only really need to kill one person cause there’s like 4 different group explosions that will cause a chain reaction (like VD).

Be honest with yourself, you aren’t doing anything that intense. Also this is ESO we are talking about (I mean PvP is completely uncompetitive, neglected, and a total joke). Why are you acting like ball grouping takes some massive amount of skill?

Cloudrest

Stamicka wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

The only "skill" involved in Ballgrouping is the calls of the crown/group lead; otherwise, you can practically turn your brain off as a DPS. Heal/support requires you to at least know what's going on.

Have to disagree with this one, hardcore ballgroupers dps & healers are required to weave in heavy cyro lag for an entire 3hr raid, their cpm will then be checked after raid. They are required to always be on orb cooldown and never miss an orb. Dps are expected to perfectly time proxy and curse/shalkes/delayed damage timers every time. Healers are expected to have the correct ratio of RR to Echoing casts. Everyone with a synergy is expected to be in position to cast synergies on every stack. After raid, everyone's block percentages are checked, supports buff uptimes are checked, etc. If anyone lets a buff run out for even a second it will be called out etc. Videos are taken of the raid to check everyone's performance. Its not something anyone from zone can easily do.

Lol. You really think all ball groups operate this way? Hardly any of this is necessary anyway.

The reality is, you stack max health and heals, you follow your group lead, and you ult when told.

You mess up? Don’t worry. Hardly anything will one shot you when you have 38k health. Ten different heal over time effects can instantly erase any damage you’ve taken.

At this point sets do all of the other work for you. You don’t need to wait for groups to hard stack cause Dark Convergence or Rush of Agony (probably both) stack them for you. You only really need to kill one person cause there’s like 4 different group explosions that will cause a chain reaction (like VD).

Be honest with yourself, you aren’t doing anything that intense. Also this is ESO we are talking about (I mean PvP is completely uncompetitive, neglected, and a total joke). Why are you acting like ball grouping takes some massive amount of skill?

@Stamicka said it better than I can. It's made out to sound so difficult when it really isn't. You could make endgame vHM Trial Trifecta runs sound that complicated-- they do log review and VOD review, too. We did VOD review in Smallscale all the time. It's really nothing special lol.

OBJnoob

I would personally agree that playing in a ballgroup probably isn't all that complicated. I just don't really think small-scaling or solo play is that complicated either. I think, if we're not careful, it's easy to give ourselves too much credit and others not enough.

The game is the game. You have to keep your buffs up, heal, do damage, and try to have good positioning. You heal when you're taking damage. You do damage when you're not. You buff when they run out.

One solo player showing off his skills jumping from 3rd to 2nd level of a rss tower over and over again, or hopping on and off some rocks, or LoSing sejanus pillars... I mean, it's basically a perfect microcosm for ballgroups turning laps on the third floor ulti-dumping noobs everytime they pass the stairs. Both in technique and, proportionately, in result.

Kordai

OBJnoob wrote: »

I would personally agree that playing in a ballgroup probably isn't all that complicated. I just don't really think small-scaling or solo play is that complicated either. I think, if we're not careful, it's easy to give ourselves too much credit and others not enough.

The game is the game. You have to keep your buffs up, heal, do damage, and try to have good positioning. You heal when you're taking damage. You do damage when you're not. You buff when they run out.

One solo player showing off his skills jumping from 3rd to 2nd level of a rss tower over and over again, or hopping on and off some rocks, or LoSing sejanus pillars... I mean, it's basically a perfect microcosm for ballgroups turning laps on the third floor ulti-dumping noobs everytime they pass the stairs. Both in technique and, proportionately, in result.

Except that there is only 1 person who is making the choice of what to do and where to go. Yes the shotcaller has the closest comparable skill and decision making as a solo, but the rest of the group doesn't. You don't choose when to do damage, you don't choose where to position yourself.

OBJnoob wrote: »

One solo player showing off his skills jumping from 3rd to 2nd level of a rss tower over and over again, or hopping on and off some rocks, or LoSing sejanus pillars... I mean, it's basically a perfect microcosm for ballgroups turning laps on the third floor ulti-dumping noobs everytime they pass the stairs. Both in technique and, proportionately, in result.

Sure I agree with you, ball groups have to think about positioning 1/12th of what a solo does.

Turtle_Bot

Cloudrest wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

The only "skill" involved in Ballgrouping is the calls of the crown/group lead; otherwise, you can practically turn your brain off as a DPS. Heal/support requires you to at least know what's going on.

Have to disagree with this one, hardcore ballgroupers dps & healers are required to weave in heavy cyro lag for an entire 3hr raid, their cpm will then be checked after raid. They are required to always be on orb cooldown and never miss an orb. Dps are expected to perfectly time proxy and curse/shalkes/delayed damage timers every time. Healers are expected to have the correct ratio of RR to Echoing casts. Everyone with a synergy is expected to be in position to cast synergies on every stack. After raid, everyone's block percentages are checked, supports buff uptimes are checked, etc. If anyone lets a buff run out for even a second it will be called out etc. Videos are taken of the raid to check everyone's performance. Its not something anyone from zone can easily do.

Lol. You really think all ball groups operate this way? Hardly any of this is necessary anyway.

The reality is, you stack max health and heals, you follow your group lead, and you ult when told.

You mess up? Don’t worry. Hardly anything will one shot you when you have 38k health. Ten different heal over time effects can instantly erase any damage you’ve taken.

At this point sets do all of the other work for you. You don’t need to wait for groups to hard stack cause Dark Convergence or Rush of Agony (probably both) stack them for you. You only really need to kill one person cause there’s like 4 different group explosions that will cause a chain reaction (like VD).

Be honest with yourself, you aren’t doing anything that intense. Also this is ESO we are talking about (I mean PvP is completely uncompetitive, neglected, and a total joke). Why are you acting like ball grouping takes some massive amount of skill?

@Stamicka said it better than I can. It's made out to sound so difficult when it really isn't. You could make endgame vHM Trial Trifecta runs sound that complicated-- they do log review and VOD review, too. We did VOD review in Smallscale all the time. It's really nothing special lol.

Solo players do this too, same as small scalers and ball groups, the amount of times my friends go over their replays, share and discuss them among ourselves to find out what we did wrong, where we could have improved, is crazy.
Often we do it in real time too while playing (myself especially since I can't really record), because we need to do so or we get continuously wiped because we miss an important mistake that having our max health worth of healing coming in every second thanks to the stacked up HoTs doesn't cover up and allow us to get away with making from time to time.

The only players I don't see doing this type of analysis of their sessions are pugs and unorganized groups, it's nothing special or uncommon to anyone who plays above a completely casual level or who wants to get better at the game.

Turtle_Bot

The best argument I can think of for not adjusting ball groups in some way (be it adjusting same morph HoT stacking, removing snow treaders from PvP or whatever would be the best option to tone them down) would be if the population caps of cyrodiil were to be increased back to their original caps of 200+ players per faction. The current population cap of 80 (or 100?) players per faction is just far too low to allow ball groups to continue on as they currently are.

With that many players on the map back then, there were actually enough numbers in a faction to counteract what ball groups could do on a map while not giving up the entire map to do so, because there was still another zerg that would be large enough to defend against the ball group factions zerg while the first zerg deals with the ball group. This allowed for a lot of battles with ball groups v zergs where it had the potential to go either way and if the ball group was still too strong for the first zerg, you could send the remainder of the faction to clear them out the same way sending a group of 20 will clear out solos if a group of 5 or 10 is not enough, or a group of 40+ will clear out small scales if a group of 10-20 is not enough.

This is why the scaling of ball groups to solos/small scales is so disproportionate despite them technically scaling in a linear way. Yes both playstyles can technically fight an equivalent number of players, the issue is that when those numbers are scaled up to the size of a ball group, this scaled number of players that the group can go up against, exceeds the numbers cap placed on the zergs and unorganized groups via the population cap which creates this imbalance we are currently seeing.

It's why we never saw ball groups being such a huge issue in the past despite ball groups and organized groups (that weren't ball groups) being up to 24 players in size (twice as large), because there used to be enough players to form a large enough zerg to drive them out of an area without giving up the entire map to do so, the same way it can still be done to solos and small scales currently. But it's no longer possible to do this to ball groups anymore, hence why they have taken over and become the uncontested apex predator in cyrodiil and why this discussion is even happening at all.

OBJnoob

Kordai wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I would personally agree that playing in a ballgroup probably isn't all that complicated. I just don't really think small-scaling or solo play is that complicated either. I think, if we're not careful, it's easy to give ourselves too much credit and others not enough.

The game is the game. You have to keep your buffs up, heal, do damage, and try to have good positioning. You heal when you're taking damage. You do damage when you're not. You buff when they run out.

One solo player showing off his skills jumping from 3rd to 2nd level of a rss tower over and over again, or hopping on and off some rocks, or LoSing sejanus pillars... I mean, it's basically a perfect microcosm for ballgroups turning laps on the third floor ulti-dumping noobs everytime they pass the stairs. Both in technique and, proportionately, in result.

Except that there is only 1 person who is making the choice of what to do and where to go. Yes the shotcaller has the closest comparable skill and decision making as a solo, but the rest of the group doesn't. You don't choose when to do damage, you don't choose where to position yourself.

OBJnoob wrote: »

One solo player showing off his skills jumping from 3rd to 2nd level of a rss tower over and over again, or hopping on and off some rocks, or LoSing sejanus pillars... I mean, it's basically a perfect microcosm for ballgroups turning laps on the third floor ulti-dumping noobs everytime they pass the stairs. Both in technique and, proportionately, in result.

Sure I agree with you, ball groups have to think about positioning 1/12th of what a solo does.

It is actually difficult sometimes to target who crown calls out to target... Or even find them. It is even difficult to stay with crown sometimes, when they are moving fast and you are part of one big ball and they demand close proximity. Crown isn't always in front, leading the way. It's just a big ball of people. Sometimes crown is slightly behind you and you can't see.

Furthermore... Try an experiment, if you have any real life friends that are good at the game. Play a session solo, with the goal in mind of Xing. But instead of thinking for yourself don't do anything important without your buddy standing behind you telling you first. Tell me... Was it better or worse? Was your reaction time better or worse? You'll find, I think, that unless you already know what to do anyway your moves are a little late when taking orders. Most of the ballgroupers already know what to do some of them small-scale and solo too you know.

I would agree to a certain extent that soloing is harder than ballgrouping but ballgrouping has its own things as well. And saying it only requires 1/12 of the skill is just insulting. I see where you got the number from but that doesn't make it accurate.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This is why the scaling of ball groups to solos/small scales is so disproportionate despite them technically scaling in a linear way. Yes both playstyles can technically fight an equivalent number of players, the issue is that when those numbers are scaled up to the size of a ball group, this scaled number of players that the group can go up against, exceeds the numbers cap placed on the zergs and unorganized groups via the population cap which creates this imbalance we are currently seeing.

I agree with this 100%. I appreciate you saying it honestly-- it feels like maybe we can understand eachother a little now. It is only because lag may be an issue (may in fact be part of THIS issue,) that I mentioned shrinking max group size instead of increasing overall pop cap.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This is why the scaling of ball groups to solos/small scales is so disproportionate despite them technically scaling in a linear way. Yes both playstyles can technically fight an equivalent number of players, the issue is that when those numbers are scaled up to the size of a ball group, this scaled number of players that the group can go up against, exceeds the numbers cap placed on the zergs and unorganized groups via the population cap which creates this imbalance we are currently seeing.

I agree with this 100%. I appreciate you saying it honestly-- it feels like maybe we can understand eachother a little now. It is only because lag may be an issue (may in fact be part of THIS issue,) that I mentioned shrinking max group size instead of increasing overall pop cap.

I still think that the scaling is not completely linear, but to give a best case scenario to explain the scaling factors behind why ball groups have become such an issue, it was important to try and explain it as best I could from your point of view.
I just don't think we will agree on how ball groups scale at the moment, probably because we are looking at it from different angles. From how I'm looking at it, it's not just the numbers of players in the group that is being accounted for when comparing ball groups to small scale or solo, since if we only take the group sizes versus how many they are able to kill into account and ignore everything else, then they are equivalent, it's just that there are way too many other factors at play with how complex the game (and this issue) is to reduce such a complex issue like this down to a simple 1vX ratio with linear scaling of the 1 and the X.

Hope this clears up what I am trying to explain here and why it likely seemed like I was all over the place, there are just that many different factors to take into account when discussing this issue and to be honest, one could probably write a full length thesis on all the different factors that affect how a ball group scales in power compared to solo/small scale.

Anyway, moving on from that, lag is definitely a factor as well in this, shrinking group size further may help in the short term or it may not, I don't know (others have pointed out the tab target markers allowing for what is essentially out of group grouping, so it likely won't help?), but I digress, the main issue I see with reducing group size even further (outside of how unpopular it would be) is that this risks making the issue even worse, driving even more of the random players that make up the zergs, out of PvP.

The organized groups will simply adapt to the smaller group sizes and likely use things such as the target markers (or an addon) alongside discord to coordinate 2-3 small scale size groups to essentially keep their current size and power level, meanwhile the zergs of randoms will have their current power cut in half again due to how they are now limited to a group size the equivalent of a small scale group but they're either not skilled enough, not built right, or simply not organized enough to make that group size work so they will very likely just give up in frustration completely and just leave PvP, leaving everyone (ball groups, small scales and solos alike) with even less people to fight/farm than there currently is.

The best thing ZOS can do is ensure the re-write (assuming it will actually fix the issues), is done in a timely manner to allow an increase to the pop cap size, outside of this, the main alternative that won't exacerbate the issue further and force more players out of PvP is to tone down the power level of ball groups such that they don't exceed the power cap of the zerg anymore (however ZOS decides to go about doing this).
This way ball groups can still run around farming the zergs, but they will be at a more acceptable power level that doesn't exceed the power cap of the zerg allowing the zerg of a large enough size to consistently drive the ball group out, just like a large enough group will always drive out a solo player or a small scale group.

jaws343

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This is why the scaling of ball groups to solos/small scales is so disproportionate despite them technically scaling in a linear way. Yes both playstyles can technically fight an equivalent number of players, the issue is that when those numbers are scaled up to the size of a ball group, this scaled number of players that the group can go up against, exceeds the numbers cap placed on the zergs and unorganized groups via the population cap which creates this imbalance we are currently seeing.

I agree with this 100%. I appreciate you saying it honestly-- it feels like maybe we can understand eachother a little now. It is only because lag may be an issue (may in fact be part of THIS issue,) that I mentioned shrinking max group size instead of increasing overall pop cap.

The organized groups will simply adapt to the smaller group sizes and likely use things such as the target markers (or an addon) alongside discord to coordinate 2-3 small scale size groups to essentially keep their current size and power level, meanwhile the zergs of randoms will have their current power cut in half again due to how they are now limited to a group size the equivalent of a small scale group but they're either not skilled enough, not built right, or simply not organized enough to make that group size work so they will very likely just give up in frustration completely and just leave PvP, leaving everyone (ball groups, small scales and solos alike) with even less people to fight/farm than there currently is.

I think another important thing to be said around reducing group size is that the number of players willing to lead groups have not only dwindled, it become incredibly difficult to form any semblance of a capable PUG in Cyrodil since the 24 - 12 group size reduction.

When there were 24 man groups, the number of group leaders necessary to organize the faction was relatively small, which meant more players were coordinated (somewhat at least).

The reduction to 12 man limits effectively doubled the number of groups that could be run, but didn't also double the number of players willing to lead. To make matters worse, a semi-organized, well led 24 man PUG group could get things done in Cyrodil. Take keeps, defend keeps, take scrolls, etc. They'd wipe against organized groups, but their impact in combat was still effective. And even when they were not, a 24 man group could accomodate for lesser skilled players. When you have 24 people, if 4 of them are lesser skilled, those 4 can man siege or heal and not be too much of a burden on the group. With 12 people, that burden becomes far more exacerbated. Where lesser skilled players can make a PUG 12 man group effectively useless the moment they take any pressure.

With all of that, the number of people willing to actually run PUG groups in cyrodil has decreased because it is far harder to predict a favorable outcome with a bunch of players you know little about, skill wise.

Reduction to 6 man cap would effectively kill any kind of grouping outside of highly organized ball groups. No one is going to want to run PUG small scale groups with players who barely function together as a group.

Marcus684

jaws343 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This is why the scaling of ball groups to solos/small scales is so disproportionate despite them technically scaling in a linear way. Yes both playstyles can technically fight an equivalent number of players, the issue is that when those numbers are scaled up to the size of a ball group, this scaled number of players that the group can go up against, exceeds the numbers cap placed on the zergs and unorganized groups via the population cap which creates this imbalance we are currently seeing.

I agree with this 100%. I appreciate you saying it honestly-- it feels like maybe we can understand eachother a little now. It is only because lag may be an issue (may in fact be part of THIS issue,) that I mentioned shrinking max group size instead of increasing overall pop cap.

The organized groups will simply adapt to the smaller group sizes and likely use things such as the target markers (or an addon) alongside discord to coordinate 2-3 small scale size groups to essentially keep their current size and power level, meanwhile the zergs of randoms will have their current power cut in half again due to how they are now limited to a group size the equivalent of a small scale group but they're either not skilled enough, not built right, or simply not organized enough to make that group size work so they will very likely just give up in frustration completely and just leave PvP, leaving everyone (ball groups, small scales and solos alike) with even less people to fight/farm than there currently is.

I think another important thing to be said around reducing group size is that the number of players willing to lead groups have not only dwindled, it become incredibly difficult to form any semblance of a capable PUG in Cyrodil since the 24 - 12 group size reduction.

When there were 24 man groups, the number of group leaders necessary to organize the faction was relatively small, which meant more players were coordinated (somewhat at least).

The reduction to 12 man limits effectively doubled the number of groups that could be run, but didn't also double the number of players willing to lead. To make matters worse, a semi-organized, well led 24 man PUG group could get things done in Cyrodil. Take keeps, defend keeps, take scrolls, etc. They'd wipe against organized groups, but their impact in combat was still effective. And even when they were not, a 24 man group could accomodate for lesser skilled players. When you have 24 people, if 4 of them are lesser skilled, those 4 can man siege or heal and not be too much of a burden on the group. With 12 people, that burden becomes far more exacerbated. Where lesser skilled players can make a PUG 12 man group effectively useless the moment they take any pressure.

With all of that, the number of people willing to actually run PUG groups in cyrodil has decreased because it is far harder to predict a favorable outcome with a bunch of players you know little about, skill wise.

Reduction to 6 man cap would effectively kill any kind of grouping outside of highly organized ball groups. No one is going to want to run PUG small scale groups with players who barely function together as a group.

You do have good points about the effectiveness of a 24-person pug vs. a 12-person, but I think what drove away the pug herders more than the reduced group size is the introduction of sets like Vicious Death and Plaguebreak, along with mechanics like Occult Overload. When the stranger next to you is a potential bomb it really puts a damper on grouping. Tbf the ungrouped zergling next to you is just as much of a danger, but grouped players need to be close together to share heals and buffs, making the 17k health player in full DD PvE gear that's in your group a liability that can cause an instant group wipe, rather than an ally.

In the glory days of Cyrodiil there used to be 3 or more pug herders competing for solos to join their group or multiple groups, now we're lucky if there's even 1 and they often have trouble filling one 12-person group.

jaws343

Marcus684 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This is why the scaling of ball groups to solos/small scales is so disproportionate despite them technically scaling in a linear way. Yes both playstyles can technically fight an equivalent number of players, the issue is that when those numbers are scaled up to the size of a ball group, this scaled number of players that the group can go up against, exceeds the numbers cap placed on the zergs and unorganized groups via the population cap which creates this imbalance we are currently seeing.

I agree with this 100%. I appreciate you saying it honestly-- it feels like maybe we can understand eachother a little now. It is only because lag may be an issue (may in fact be part of THIS issue,) that I mentioned shrinking max group size instead of increasing overall pop cap.

The organized groups will simply adapt to the smaller group sizes and likely use things such as the target markers (or an addon) alongside discord to coordinate 2-3 small scale size groups to essentially keep their current size and power level, meanwhile the zergs of randoms will have their current power cut in half again due to how they are now limited to a group size the equivalent of a small scale group but they're either not skilled enough, not built right, or simply not organized enough to make that group size work so they will very likely just give up in frustration completely and just leave PvP, leaving everyone (ball groups, small scales and solos alike) with even less people to fight/farm than there currently is.

I think another important thing to be said around reducing group size is that the number of players willing to lead groups have not only dwindled, it become incredibly difficult to form any semblance of a capable PUG in Cyrodil since the 24 - 12 group size reduction.

When there were 24 man groups, the number of group leaders necessary to organize the faction was relatively small, which meant more players were coordinated (somewhat at least).

The reduction to 12 man limits effectively doubled the number of groups that could be run, but didn't also double the number of players willing to lead. To make matters worse, a semi-organized, well led 24 man PUG group could get things done in Cyrodil. Take keeps, defend keeps, take scrolls, etc. They'd wipe against organized groups, but their impact in combat was still effective. And even when they were not, a 24 man group could accomodate for lesser skilled players. When you have 24 people, if 4 of them are lesser skilled, those 4 can man siege or heal and not be too much of a burden on the group. With 12 people, that burden becomes far more exacerbated. Where lesser skilled players can make a PUG 12 man group effectively useless the moment they take any pressure.

With all of that, the number of people willing to actually run PUG groups in cyrodil has decreased because it is far harder to predict a favorable outcome with a bunch of players you know little about, skill wise.

Reduction to 6 man cap would effectively kill any kind of grouping outside of highly organized ball groups. No one is going to want to run PUG small scale groups with players who barely function together as a group.

You do have good points about the effectiveness of a 24-person pug vs. a 12-person, but I think what drove away the pug herders more than the reduced group size is the introduction of sets like Vicious Death and Plaguebreak, along with mechanics like Occult Overload. When the stranger next to you is a potential bomb it really puts a damper on grouping. Tbf the ungrouped zergling next to you is just as much of a danger, but grouped players need to be close together to share heals and buffs, making the 17k health player in full DD PvE gear that's in your group a liability that can cause an instant group wipe, rather than an ally.

In the glory days of Cyrodiil there used to be 3 or more pug herders competing for solos to join their group or multiple groups, now we're lucky if there's even 1 and they often have trouble filling one 12-person group.

Vicious death was around long before group size reduction. Bombing happened all the time, and still, group leaders ran 24 man PUGs in Cyrodil. The other two, Plague and Occult, happened after the reduction to 12 and by the time those two things were introduced, the reduction to 12 had already mostly killed PUG groups.

Kordai

OBJnoob wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I would personally agree that playing in a ballgroup probably isn't all that complicated. I just don't really think small-scaling or solo play is that complicated either. I think, if we're not careful, it's easy to give ourselves too much credit and others not enough.

The game is the game. You have to keep your buffs up, heal, do damage, and try to have good positioning. You heal when you're taking damage. You do damage when you're not. You buff when they run out.

One solo player showing off his skills jumping from 3rd to 2nd level of a rss tower over and over again, or hopping on and off some rocks, or LoSing sejanus pillars... I mean, it's basically a perfect microcosm for ballgroups turning laps on the third floor ulti-dumping noobs everytime they pass the stairs. Both in technique and, proportionately, in result.

Except that there is only 1 person who is making the choice of what to do and where to go. Yes the shotcaller has the closest comparable skill and decision making as a solo, but the rest of the group doesn't. You don't choose when to do damage, you don't choose where to position yourself.

OBJnoob wrote: »

One solo player showing off his skills jumping from 3rd to 2nd level of a rss tower over and over again, or hopping on and off some rocks, or LoSing sejanus pillars... I mean, it's basically a perfect microcosm for ballgroups turning laps on the third floor ulti-dumping noobs everytime they pass the stairs. Both in technique and, proportionately, in result.

Sure I agree with you, ball groups have to think about positioning 1/12th of what a solo does.

It is actually difficult sometimes to target who crown calls out to target... Or even find them. It is even difficult to stay with crown sometimes, when they are moving fast and you are part of one big ball and they demand close proximity. Crown isn't always in front, leading the way. It's just a big ball of people. Sometimes crown is slightly behind you and you can't see.

... well of course you don't just blindly follow crown, you follow his/her verbal instructions. Only pugs who don't use discord have to blindly follow crown because typed instructions is nearly impossible in fights.

Below is one of many videos by drac, who imho was the best ball group. Listen for the call outs, he tells them exactly where to go, when to proxy with a nice little 3 sec countdown to make sure everybody will pop in sync. The other players only speak when calling their ults so as to not over use and have multiple negates or healing ults unnecessarily, or for calling out enemy negates. And those are again imo the very best ball group players and so have a bit more freedom for ult usage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5EyRT523xI

OBJnoob wrote: »

Furthermore... Try an experiment, if you have any real life friends that are good at the game. Play a session solo, with the goal in mind of Xing. But instead of thinking for yourself don't do anything important without your buddy standing behind you telling you first. Tell me... Was it better or worse? Was your reaction time better or worse? You'll find, I think, that unless you already know what to do anyway your moves are a little late when taking orders. Most of the ballgroupers already know what to do some of them small-scale and solo too you know.

I would agree to a certain extent that soloing is harder than ballgrouping but ballgrouping has its own things as well. And saying it only requires 1/12 of the skill is just insulting. I see where you got the number from but that doesn't make it accurate.

I said it required 1/12th have to think about POSITIONING, which it does. Are you saying your ball group has every member have input on which direction you go? What do you have a 13th person in discord to tally up everybody's opinion? "Joe wants to go left, Frank right, Lauren right, James right, Matt left, Justin right, Maria left, Connor right, Heather right, Jamie left, Chris left. Hmm... Greg never got what you want? Oh left, okay give me a sec. 6 left, 6 right. Okay I'll be tie breaker, go left." If you guys do that I will give you all the credit in the world, because boy that amount of patience is godly. You guys are just standing there at the back side of the upper level of a keep waiting to go left or right. Sounds like DnD tbh.

EDIT: removed 1/12th the skill in reference to the quoted text, but I never said that so didn't have to refute.

OBJnoob

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This is why the scaling of ball groups to solos/small scales is so disproportionate despite them technically scaling in a linear way. Yes both playstyles can technically fight an equivalent number of players, the issue is that when those numbers are scaled up to the size of a ball group, this scaled number of players that the group can go up against, exceeds the numbers cap placed on the zergs and unorganized groups via the population cap which creates this imbalance we are currently seeing.

I agree with this 100%. I appreciate you saying it honestly-- it feels like maybe we can understand eachother a little now. It is only because lag may be an issue (may in fact be part of THIS issue,) that I mentioned shrinking max group size instead of increasing overall pop cap.

I still think that the scaling is not completely linear, but to give a best case scenario to explain the scaling factors behind why ball groups have become such an issue, it was important to try and explain it as best I could from your point of view.
I just don't think we will agree on how ball groups scale at the moment, probably because we are looking at it from different angles. From how I'm looking at it, it's not just the numbers of players in the group that is being accounted for when comparing ball groups to small scale or solo, since if we only take the group sizes versus how many they are able to kill into account and ignore everything else, then they are equivalent, it's just that there are way too many other factors at play with how complex the game (and this issue) is to reduce such a complex issue like this down to a simple 1vX ratio with linear scaling of the 1 and the X.

Hope this clears up what I am trying to explain here and why it likely seemed like I was all over the place, there are just that many different factors to take into account when discussing this issue and to be honest, one could probably write a full length thesis on all the different factors that affect how a ball group scales in power compared to solo/small scale.

Anyway, moving on from that, lag is definitely a factor as well in this, shrinking group size further may help in the short term or it may not, I don't know (others have pointed out the tab target markers allowing for what is essentially out of group grouping, so it likely won't help?), but I digress, the main issue I see with reducing group size even further (outside of how unpopular it would be) is that this risks making the issue even worse, driving even more of the random players that make up the zergs, out of PvP.

The organized groups will simply adapt to the smaller group sizes and likely use things such as the target markers (or an addon) alongside discord to coordinate 2-3 small scale size groups to essentially keep their current size and power level, meanwhile the zergs of randoms will have their current power cut in half again due to how they are now limited to a group size the equivalent of a small scale group but they're either not skilled enough, not built right, or simply not organized enough to make that group size work so they will very likely just give up in frustration completely and just leave PvP, leaving everyone (ball groups, small scales and solos alike) with even less people to fight/farm than there currently is.

The best thing ZOS can do is ensure the re-write (assuming it will actually fix the issues), is done in a timely manner to allow an increase to the pop cap size, outside of this, the main alternative that won't exacerbate the issue further and force more players out of PvP is to tone down the power level of ball groups such that they don't exceed the power cap of the zerg anymore (however ZOS decides to go about doing this).
This way ball groups can still run around farming the zergs, but they will be at a more acceptable power level that doesn't exceed the power cap of the zerg allowing the zerg of a large enough size to consistently drive the ball group out, just like a large enough group will always drive out a solo player or a small scale group.

You know what? You weren't ever really "all over the place," and if we got nasty with eachother earlier I accept 65% of the blame for that. I'm not a nice guy and, even when I'm trying to be nice, sometimes I accidentally use harsh language.

I agree that scaling up from solo to ballgroup isn't exactly linear. But, in my opinion, this has little to do with HoT stacking and more to do with group-buff sets that grant the other 11 people major courage, major berserk, ulti gen, this that and the other. Which is why I've said once or twice I'd rather see max group size reduced or max effect on some of these sets altered before I'd want to see HoT stacks be limited.

In other words it isn't their fault that they have 12 HoTs on them. Of course they do-- there's 12 people. What may be problematic is that they ALL have major courage and each of their HoTs is more than 1 of yours.

I have actually tried to provide alternative solutions here. I have not come here to deny the problem or just tell people their ideas suck.

But of all the solutions my least favorite is definitely restricting what abilities players can use. Not only does it not seem fair to me but it also raises problems in the vein of: Okay well is it a smart heal or not, now that it doesn't hit everybody? Will it hit the 4 lowest health or the 4 closest to me? And some people will say "it needs to be a smart heal because in a ballgroup you can't really pick who is closest." And some will say "but over healing a target is how I get my proc." So it becomes a can of worms and, as you said, we could write a 5-page thesis on it.

Anyway... I've had some good discussions with you, mostly in the sorc threads, and I've come to respect your view. I don't think I've ever aggressively debated you before so if our little feud is behind us I'd like to be friends.

However I do have one more thing to say that is contrarian to your view. You, and some other people as well, have commented on target markers and other ways of communication/organization that you don't necessarily have to be grouped to use. You have said it in the context of "so this wouldn't necessarily curtail ballgroups." Fair enough. But by the same token I would like you all to ponder all these tools available to pugs/zergs/small-scale/solos loosely united against a ballgroup. Ponder them and, in so doing, perhaps understand better that what a ballgroup can do does take skill and uniting against them could be easier than it is if people would make the effort.

Theignson

Cloudrest wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Depending on which zone chat leaders are on, a ball group can kill in the high 100's (700+) if not close to 1000 in 1 session. It also doesn't help that the ball groups size allows it to actually threaten the map which demands a response from the zerg (which is something that solos and small scale cannot do at the same scale and especially in the same short timeframe).

I am yet to see a good counter argument for this factor to tone down ball groups power.

(The following is not directed at you cloud, but more in general)

Yes, solos and small scale can troll the map, but all they can reliably threaten are the resources or maybe the outposts, which can be dealt with much faster and for much less cost to the rest of the map due to there being 3 separate resources to ride between and flip to cut a keep (much slower) and the outer (AP) keeps acting as pseudo bypasses for the outposts and the outposts having short rides from their neighboring keeps for when you need to retake them. This is unlike a ball group that can flag a main keep and flip its flags within minutes if not responded to with enough numbers and with enough early warning.

Ball groups basically hold the map hostage to their whims or risk losing the map entirely (since they will flip keeps faster than the zerg can and you can bet that they will flip as many keeps as required then come wipe the zerg should the zerg choose to ignore the ball group).

It's a lose lose situation for the other factions when a ball group logs on, simply because not only do those factions need to deal with the ball group taking their keeps, but the ball groups faction still has their own zerg also pushing the map (which is basically empty if your zerg goes to deal with the ball group) at the same time.
This is why ball groups need toning down and why they are so frustrating to play against and why they are not comparable to solos or small scale. It has gotten to the stage where there's nothing you can do when they are on, you either simply log off or try to defend what you can against what is essentially the power equivalent to 2 factions attacking you at the same time (or 3 factions worth of power against 1 if the 3rd faction follows the ball groups faction to push your faction, which is often the case) because to simply ignore them is to have the same effect as logging off, you lose the entire map in less than an hour.

Oh, don't worry-- you and I both agree that Ballgroups need to be toned down. You and I both haven't seen a good counter argument to toning down their power because it simply doesn't exist. There's people trying to say it isn't broken (it is) or that they'll find something more broken because they have "good" theorycrafters-- they won't. There's simply nothing in ESO that compares to stacking that much healing ontop of one another atm.

Good point about Ballgroups being able to hold the entire map-- and the entire faction, hostage. Smallscales can certainly influence the map and hold up a zerg, but around 20 players is the upper limit for a good smallscale to tank with good healing and good line of sight. 30 is definitely pushing it. Ballgroups often require a faction stack to deal with them running around Faregyl or Arrius or Glademist for an hour, and even then, sometimes it still isn't enough, and people end up gated with no scrolls when the rest of the zerg comes to stack ontop of the Ballgroup and they end up logging off, frustrated. It's not comparable at all to 1vXers or Smallscales. Smallscales also have to be playing optimally when heavily outnumbered like that; one mistake will cause a wipe. Ballgroups can run around infinitely with their healing, and if someone does somehow die, they have a res ult-- no worries!

I don't even bother trying to fight Ballgroups 95% of the time. I learned that lesson years ago. However, I don't even have to be near them to have them ruining my gameplay; if there's one or more ballgroups online, I can simply feel the delay in the server's response to casting my abilities. They need nerfed, period. It'll be much healthier for the game if they're easier to take down for zergs. It'll also lessen the lag if it requires less people to respond to them, and if so much healing isn't being spammed.

The solution is limiting same-morph healing to two stacks of a unique heal on a player at the same time. You can have two echoing vigors, two radiating regenerations, two polar winds, two healing orbs healing you at the same time, so on and so forth- that'd be pretty balanced, I think.

Will it mean Ballgroups will run more dedicated healers and supports to be just as survivable? Sure, probably, but they'll sacrifice damage by doing so, which achieves the goal of tuning them down regardless.

Will it mean people will have to run more selfish heals and shields? Sure, probably, but that'll mean it'll require more of a brain to play in one of these groups, and it leaves a lot more room open for personal error when someone inevitably makes a mistake, causing wipes.

Will smallscale also take a hit? Yeah, probably. But the game will be in a much healthier state for 90% of the PvP population, which is what the game SHOULD be balanced around. Not us 1%ers. We'll adapt. So will the Ballgroups, sure, but things won't be as absurdly one-sided as it is right now.

Also disable crosshealing outside of group again, please. That was an amazing week in Cyrodiil.

I agree with all this. Ball groups are boring, boring , boring but their boring runs around arrius 3rd floor hold the whole faction hostage, and if you ignore them their zergling counterparts come and take the keep.

My solution is even more radical: no group/cross spells/effects of any kind in cyrodil.

You can still have your ball groups and benefit from your superior coordination and maneuvering-- but every man for themself!!

All buffs/heals you have to apply yourself. A Free for all.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

Anyway... I've had some good discussions with you, mostly in the sorc threads, and I've come to respect your view. I don't think I've ever aggressively debated you before so if our little feud is behind us I'd like to be friends.

However I do have one more thing to say that is contrarian to your view. You, and some other people as well, have commented on target markers and other ways of communication/organization that you don't necessarily have to be grouped to use. You have said it in the context of "so this wouldn't necessarily curtail ballgroups." Fair enough. But by the same token I would like you all to ponder all these tools available to pugs/zergs/small-scale/solos loosely united against a ballgroup. Ponder them and, in so doing, perhaps understand better that what a ballgroup can do does take skill and uniting against them could be easier than it is if people would make the effort.

All good, yeah our sorc discussions have been interesting for sure.

I agree that being a good ball group definitely takes a certain level of skill to accomplish (this was never being debated, at least from me), it's just become very apparent that even the mediocre ball groups are currently overperforming (and while it's not only from stacked HoTs, it's from being able to stack things in general and HoTs and healing is just very strong currently so its the most obvious/noticeable point).

The main counterpoint to getting pugs to use those tools as well is that it's naturally extremely difficult to do. Most of them probably don't even know they exist, let alone what they can be used for or even bother to try using them.
All the pug trials I've joined in the past and the unorganized groups I used to join back when I was a casual in PvP taught me the reasons for this and they are:
- lack of quick communication methods (no discord)
- lack of explanation/knowledge
- not everyone being on the same page
- the group all having different goals
- most of these players are casual and not trying to be the best
- not willing to put in the effort

Some may use those tools, but the vast majority won't even know about them let alone try using them.

It's been the same result with sets in the past that were designed to combat ball groups. Back when dark convergence, plaguebreak and hrothgars were really OP, the pugs were barely using those sets and the ones that did use them, were using them in a very inefficient way. This imbalance of skill will always exist, hence the need to look at pop caps or some other method of toning down ball groups.
It's also why HoT stacking is a popular point for toning down ball groups, only the skilled/organized players are able to utilize HoT stacking (and stacking of things in general) to such effectiveness so hitting the ability to stack HoTs or group sets is a way to tone down organized groups and skilled players without directly affecting unorganized groups (at least until we hopefully get an increase to the pop cap to allow for a more balanced battlefield that allows ball groups to run around with the same linearly scaled power that solo and small scale can without causing the issues we are currently seeing).

Udrath

Trying to stop ball groups is like trying to stop people from decorating houses. It’s a PvP community event like raiding unfortunately.

xylena_lazarow

Udrath wrote: »

Trying to stop ball groups is like trying to stop people from decorating houses.

It's more like trying to stop this one house in the neighborhood from putting up so many Christmas lights that it creates a fire hazard and knocks out power to the whole block. In June.

OBJnoob

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

Trying to stop ball groups is like trying to stop people from decorating houses.

It's more like trying to stop this one house in the neighborhood from putting up so many Christmas lights that it creates a fire hazard and knocks out power to the whole block. In June.

It's more like December. And there's nothing wrong with the lights, cuz it's their house not yours, and the real problem is that the electric company has improper infrastructure to support the services they try to provide.

I'd like to know why HoT stacking is carrying all the burden of blame for this anyway. Not whatever other buttons are being pressed, not the buffs, not the animations of skills, not the enemy faction stack or anything they're doing.

Limiting HoT stacks isn't gonna do much if your main goal is to reduce lag. Making the max group size smaller would go a lot further.

But why add circuit breakers when you can just blame Christmas lights, right?

Stamicka

Udrath wrote: »

Trying to stop ball groups is like trying to stop people from decorating houses. It’s a PvP community event like raiding unfortunately.

Organized grouping is fine. You can't stop people from being organized, that's fine. The biggest issue is the HOT stacking. It is ridiculously effective and completely effortless.

The server decides who the heal will go to in the case of Radiating Regen, then for echoing vigor you can just cast it and heal people around you. These heals also stick to you while you move and the heals stack. You don't have to aim these skills, you don't have to stand in a certain place to get the heal, and they last a long time so they can be kept up easily. Group members just need to press a button or 2 every few seconds and the group gets to be nearly immortal. It is ridiculous. It should not be so easy to get such results. There needs to be a skill element and trade-offs when it comes to healing.

Even adding an element of aim to these types of skills would help tremendously. For example, the Warden's "Nature's Grasp" ability requires you to aim at a target in order for them to receive the heal. If radiating regen got the same treatment, it would probably take some strain off of the server and make coordinated grouping a bit more thoughtful. Of course, they could also just make these types of skills unable to stack completely. Another possibility is to put more emphasis on ground based AOE heals like Healing Springs. Ground Based AOE heals are already better designed and more thoughtful than radiating regen because they encourage stacking in the AOE. (This makes the group more susceptible to bombing and stuff, so you have to be careful of this). You also don't have total freedom of movement when you have to stand in one of these AOE heals. A lot of a ball groups power comes from their freedom of movement. Making a trade-off between movement or getting healing is a great way to increase the skill required to be survivable as a group while not discouraging organization.

SimonThesis

So what happens if hot stacking goes away and ballgroups can still tank the entire faction and just as easily blow up a stack of 20 players? What will we blame then?

ShadowProc

SimonThesis wrote: »

So what happens if hot stacking goes away and ballgroups can still tank the entire faction and just as easily blow up a stack of 20 players? What will we blame then?

Not sure. But let's find out.

Honestly other things must change to. The major thing not talked about I believe KS Snow Treaders. Disable it in pvp.

SimonThesis

ShadowProc wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

So what happens if hot stacking goes away and ballgroups can still tank the entire faction and just as easily blow up a stack of 20 players? What will we blame then?

Not sure. But let's find out.

Honestly other things must change to. The major thing not talked about I believe KS Snow Treaders. Disable it in pvp.

Snow treaders only affects soft CCs like roots or snares not hard CCs like fears and stuns. Ballgroups and most pvpers use immovability pots for hard CCs and then shuffle/rat/ or snow treaders for soft ccs. Mostly healers and supports are in treaders not their lead or dps who need to sprint to a damage stack.

All taking away snow treaders would do is have ballgroups swap their healers from treaders to the Pearls mythic and their healers would just run shuffle or race against time.

Marcus684

SimonThesis wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

So what happens if hot stacking goes away and ballgroups can still tank the entire faction and just as easily blow up a stack of 20 players? What will we blame then?

Not sure. But let's find out.

Honestly other things must change to. The major thing not talked about I believe KS Snow Treaders. Disable it in pvp.

Snow treaders only affects soft CCs like roots or snares not hard CCs like fears and stuns. Ballgroups and most pvpers use immovability pots for hard CCs and then shuffle/rat/ or snow treaders for soft ccs. Mostly healers and supports are in treaders not their lead or dps who need to sprint to a damage stack.

All taking away snow treaders would do is have ballgroups swap their healers from treaders to the Pearls mythic and their healers would just run shuffle or race against time.

Good! We need less gear carries in this game.

ShadowProc

SimonThesis wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

So what happens if hot stacking goes away and ballgroups can still tank the entire faction and just as easily blow up a stack of 20 players? What will we blame then?

Not sure. But let's find out.

Honestly other things must change to. The major thing not talked about I believe KS Snow Treaders. Disable it in pvp.

Snow treaders only affects soft CCs like roots or snares not hard CCs like fears and stuns. Ballgroups and most pvpers use immovability pots for hard CCs and then shuffle/rat/ or snow treaders for soft ccs. Mostly healers and supports are in treaders not their lead or dps who need to sprint to a damage stack.

All taking away snow treaders would do is have ballgroups swap their healers from treaders to the Pearls mythic and their healers would just run shuffle or race against time.

Race against time means one less slot and actively doing an action to play. I am all for it.

My point is get rid of these sets doing all the work for you.