Ball groups destroying everything fun about pvp

Bushido2513

Ball groups are fine, people will always want to play in groups in an MMO which is to be expected.


Cross healing and proc effects are just not well balanced in this game. So when groups fight, the effects just start to take over to create a looping cycle of damage and healing.

This doesn't always end in stalemates and such but most likely will and especially will when groups coordinate builds and skill.

For so many reasons both legitimate and not, zos has been unable to maintain a steady balance and that's really where the issue is.

By the way I say this in regards to creating a game where players die. A big counter issue to balance is finding a spot where people die but not so fast that it feels unfair and that's just a really hard moving target to hit.

If you increase damage then people will just complain that ball groups nuke them and make pvp not fun in that aspect. If you increase defenses then people complain that now nobody is dying but new players feel better about getting into pvp.


No good answers that would please all sides unfortunately but I definitely feel that just grouping up and working as a team shouldn't be an issue to be targeted.

Turtle_Bot

Elendir2am wrote: »

I don't see problem of ballgroups as something to blame ball groups members. Seeing what max optimized group can do should be main goal of this. However, we should be able make theire life much harder, so they should actualy show their skills. It looks more like lobotomy now, when they can just repeat same pattern for long minutes. It is question, why ZOS is resisting to implement some counter play.

By the way, HoTs i so broken now, that clash of balls take long time to resolve either.

If it even resolves at all, most of them just walk away from each other when they see that their ulti dumps don't do anything to each other thanks to all the stacked passive healing.
It's gotten to a point now where most ball groups don't even bother fighting each other unless they know its a new group they want to see if they can kill or a significantly weaker group they know they can kill.

TechMaybeHic

I've seen ball groups fight each other, but let's be honest. You can clearly see when there are 2 ball groups at enemy tri keeps and they don't diverge from running around to go face each other with few exceptions.


But I think we mis the point on these discussions. Organized groups should be and are stronger than randoms. And always will be. We start identifying "ball groups" as what needs to be addressed but it really is uneven mechanics.

"Smart" heals, buffs, and cleanses go right where they are needed. Damage, debuffs, and coordinated combos have to be targeted and it's almost impossible to focus one target in a cluster. Then the later debuffs tend to have shorter duration even if not cleansed

Then DOTs are weaker than HOTs

There are more healing/defensive buff group sets than there are offensive. There are procs that have been shoehorned here but they actually wind up being more oppressive used by the groups getting the mass defense.

So yes, organized play should be progressively better than unorganized and will be. But the game tips the scale to where mechanics benefits tight stacked groups more so than the skill and coordination

Tiphis

They've been buffed for years now, it's been the best playstyle for awhile now. Get your friends together and play it or try another game. It's the direction the game was taken, either play the correct way or accept that you are playing incorrectly.

MISTFORMBZZZ

Organisated groups will always win to unorganisated zergs. Deal with it

xylena_lazarow

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Organisated groups will always win to unorganisated zergs. Deal with it

They aren't winning objectives. They're stalling fights to troll casuals. That is why we still have these threads.

Braffin

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Organisated groups will always win to unorganisated zergs. Deal with it

They aren't winning objectives. They're stalling fights to troll casuals. That is why we still have these threads.

Well, trolling always needs two parties. There is a side which is beckoning in a fight. And there is a party which falling in. Respawning at the next possibility and charging back in the exact same fight asap without thinking about what just happened is as much of a cause as the beckoning itself.

Don't see a problem in that tho, it's always been this way. That's how a zerg is working, that's why it got this name.

Tiphis

Braffin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Organisated groups will always win to unorganisated zergs. Deal with it

They aren't winning objectives. They're stalling fights to troll casuals. That is why we still have these threads.

Well, trolling always needs two parties. There is a side which is beckoning in a fight. And there is a party which falling in. Respawning at the next possibility and charging back in the exact same fight asap without thinking about what just happened is as much of a cause as the beckoning itself.

Don't see a problem in that tho, it's always been this way. That's how a zerg is working, that's why it got this name.

By that same argument it's everyone else's fault for playing cyro in the first place. I don't disagree, you are right ball groups is the correct playstyle and everyone else playing objectives are playing the game wrong. They should just continue and make cyro 12 man group only no solos or small groups and we are both completely in agreement with that.

Braffin

Tiphis wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Organisated groups will always win to unorganisated zergs. Deal with it

They aren't winning objectives. They're stalling fights to troll casuals. That is why we still have these threads.

Well, trolling always needs two parties. There is a side which is beckoning in a fight. And there is a party which falling in. Respawning at the next possibility and charging back in the exact same fight asap without thinking about what just happened is as much of a cause as the beckoning itself.

Don't see a problem in that tho, it's always been this way. That's how a zerg is working, that's why it got this name.

By that same argument it's everyone else's fault for playing cyro in the first place. I don't disagree, you are right ball groups is the correct playstyle and everyone else playing objectives are playing the game wrong. They should just continue and make cyro 12 man group only no solos or small groups and we are both completely in agreement with that.

I wouldn't go as far as you because I think it's completely viable to do small scale or soloplay in cyro and I don't wanna see these playstyles, which also exist since the beginning, eliminated, although I have to admit that the reduction of population caps created a problem here.

But in the end, yes. Cyro is a warzone in the end and the primary way to do it is groups of 12 (I miss the groups of 24 tho^^). Players which want to do exactly this shouldn't never ever be at a disadvantage there.

And as far at it around organized group vs zerg in PvP, there are the same rules as it is with organized group vs pug in PvE. The latter will never be the better, and never should be. Not in eso nor in any other game I know.

Berenhir

Hey,

wanted to chime in on the discussion. Ballgroups are not unkillable, you just have to separate, negate and burst their group members. Ballgroups are of course usually not touchable by single players or duos, but that's not an issue as a 2 vs 10 is only winnable for the 2 when the 10 don't know what they're doing.

I have some footage from last Saturday showing a ballgroup both nearly wiping and working under heavy pressure. On the wipe against AD, we have members of another ballgroup in a ~4 man zergbombing us, they basically use CC against us to enable the damage of the zerg, which is a valid tactic but usually the zerglings won't even notice what happened as they lack situational awareness. This is also the sole reason we can kill players like spell scar zombies by the dozens.

In that video, in the second pressure phase against DC, there is also an organised group of about 8 players among the ~40-50 man zerg, but this time we hold our ground and they are unable to utilize their zerg for damage in an open field fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6dtFSU461c

YandereGirlfriend

The poster above makes a great point - there ARE many moments when ball groups are vulnerable IF you know what to look for. However, most random zone players have no idea how to read the battlefield and do not know much about basic game mechanics, so they miss those opportunities when they arise. Similarly, they can often negatively impact the ability of more experienced players to fight them by giving ball groups things that they want like free Hard-CC immunity via their random, uncoordinated Stuns, easy VD/PB procs, etc.

Tiphis

Braffin wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Organisated groups will always win to unorganisated zergs. Deal with it

They aren't winning objectives. They're stalling fights to troll casuals. That is why we still have these threads.

Well, trolling always needs two parties. There is a side which is beckoning in a fight. And there is a party which falling in. Respawning at the next possibility and charging back in the exact same fight asap without thinking about what just happened is as much of a cause as the beckoning itself.

Don't see a problem in that tho, it's always been this way. That's how a zerg is working, that's why it got this name.

By that same argument it's everyone else's fault for playing cyro in the first place. I don't disagree, you are right ball groups is the correct playstyle and everyone else playing objectives are playing the game wrong. They should just continue and make cyro 12 man group only no solos or small groups and we are both completely in agreement with that.

I wouldn't go as far as you because I think it's completely viable to do small scale or soloplay in cyro and I don't wanna see these playstyles, which also exist since the beginning, eliminated, although I have to admit that the reduction of population caps created a problem here.

But in the end, yes. Cyro is a warzone in the end and the primary way to do it is groups of 12 (I miss the groups of 24 tho^^). Players which want to do exactly this shouldn't never ever be at a disadvantage there.

And as far at it around organized group vs zerg in PvP, there are the same rules as it is with organized group vs pug in PvE. The latter will never be the better, and never should be. Not in eso nor in any other game I know.

The only issue is when ball groups zerg. Then it's kinda pointless fighting them, my favorite is when I get solo ult bombed by them, granted they don't actually need to ult to win the 40 v 8 but I guess they want to ult somebody.

Braffin

Tiphis wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Organisated groups will always win to unorganisated zergs. Deal with it

They aren't winning objectives. They're stalling fights to troll casuals. That is why we still have these threads.

Well, trolling always needs two parties. There is a side which is beckoning in a fight. And there is a party which falling in. Respawning at the next possibility and charging back in the exact same fight asap without thinking about what just happened is as much of a cause as the beckoning itself.

Don't see a problem in that tho, it's always been this way. That's how a zerg is working, that's why it got this name.

By that same argument it's everyone else's fault for playing cyro in the first place. I don't disagree, you are right ball groups is the correct playstyle and everyone else playing objectives are playing the game wrong. They should just continue and make cyro 12 man group only no solos or small groups and we are both completely in agreement with that.

I wouldn't go as far as you because I think it's completely viable to do small scale or soloplay in cyro and I don't wanna see these playstyles, which also exist since the beginning, eliminated, although I have to admit that the reduction of population caps created a problem here.

But in the end, yes. Cyro is a warzone in the end and the primary way to do it is groups of 12 (I miss the groups of 24 tho^^). Players which want to do exactly this shouldn't never ever be at a disadvantage there.

And as far at it around organized group vs zerg in PvP, there are the same rules as it is with organized group vs pug in PvE. The latter will never be the better, and never should be. Not in eso nor in any other game I know.

The only issue is when ball groups zerg. Then it's kinda pointless fighting them, my favorite is when I get solo ult bombed by them, granted they don't actually need to ult to win the 40 v 8 but I guess they want to ult somebody.

Well, sometimes [snip] just happens

Kordai

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The poster above makes a great point - there ARE many moments when ball groups are vulnerable IF you know what to look for. However, most random zone players have no idea how to read the battlefield and do not know much about basic game mechanics, so they miss those opportunities when they arise. Similarly, they can often negatively impact the ability of more experienced players to fight them by giving ball groups things that they want like free Hard-CC immunity via their random, uncoordinated Stuns, easy VD/PB procs, etc.

Precisely, and if you have a group of 12 good players then they should play the best way which is to ball group and zerg surf.

Nobody ever said ball groups are unkillable but to pugs they are borderline. The other day there was an ad ball group that grabbed the ep scroll from dc and ran around with it for 20 mins or so, nobody could kill them and they got bored so they simply dropped the scroll at an ad keep and went on not dying. As they get buffed the ability for an average pug to do anything to them diminishes drastically. As the average person in cyro is an average pug it works out in the ball group continuing favor with better and better odds every patch. And the average person in cyro will literally always be an AVERAGE pug.

sunshineflame

There is nothing wrong about building so that it takes you and 11 other players to kill someone. People like different things and these people like pressing one button and staying on crown. It's simple and effective and that makes people happy.

AndreNoir

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The poster above makes a great point - there ARE many moments when ball groups are vulnerable IF you know what to look for. However, most random zone players have no idea how to read the battlefield and do not know much about basic game mechanics, so they miss those opportunities when they arise. Similarly, they can often negatively impact the ability of more experienced players to fight them by giving ball groups things that they want like free Hard-CC immunity via their random, uncoordinated Stuns, easy VD/PB procs, etc.

Oh please. You guys can post cherry picked videos as much as you want but irl your "coordinated teams" just ignores each other so all of yours fairytales about how easy it to break them are pointless

wotevah

Keeping in mind, that a well organised group with optimised composition and a skilled lead should be the apex predators on a mmo pvp server and the game is not busted if they prove hard to kill. That said, even from the perspective of keeping the game interesting to most ball group players, HOTs could do with being tuned down. 11 echoing vigours and perhaps as many rad regenerations, is giving these players circa 20k hps, even when standing in a negate (echoing vigour being a stamina skill can even be cast in a negate). Perhaps the solution is a diminishing return on HOTs; the more you have on you the less effective each one is (sort of like Rallying Cry)... or perhaps a cap to a max of say six sources on each player. Capping a 12 player ball group's healing to the same as a coordinated 6 player group, but still leaving it hitting like an atom bomb if they coordinate their damage like they should do.

If you look at Berenhir's video, please note the kill counter:

randomly pulled out of the video...



604 kills for 3 deaths is not a healthy balance for a PVP game. The gap between the best and the mediocre needs to be closer.

Even better than nerfing mechanics...

Ball groups are not cheating or playing unfair, they are just much better optimised and better organised. The best way to combat the "scourge" of ball groups is to group up, coordinate builds, be on voice, and learn to compete. You cannot beat them so join them... you could even hunt them down, but first evolve past just being a zerg.

Loooree

AndreNoir wrote: »

Oh please. You guys can post cherry picked videos as much as you want but irl your "coordinated teams" just ignores each other so all of yours fairytales about how easy it to break them are pointless

Then make your own "coordinated team" and don't ignore ballgroups. Hope I helped.

wotevah wrote: »

randomly pulled out of the video...



604 kills for 3 deaths is not a healthy balance for a PVP game. The gap between the best and the mediocre needs to be closer.

Why?

Tommy_The_Gun

wotevah wrote: »

Ball groups are not cheating or playing unfair, they are just much better optimised and better organised. The best way to combat the "scourge" of ball groups is to group up, coordinate builds, be on voice, and learn to compete. You cannot beat them so join them... you could even hunt them down, but first evolve past just being a zerg.

The problem with that is that for the most part a "Ball Group" is unable to kill other "Ball Group". That is why very often you see them actively avoiding each other. If there is for example "last emp keep" and almost every player in Cyro is there, it is very likely to also see Ball Groups from different alliance there. But the thing is that Ball Groups avoid each other because they know they can not kill each other and they will only waste time and not get any AP (while killing randoms is easy AP for them).

My point is: If you have a play style that is BIS and is strongest and best thing available for PvP, to the point that even same other BIS play style can not counter itself - then it means that the game has a core balance issue. It is especially odd if you consider that other types of playstyles that were OP and BiS at same point were nerfed - because they were OP (like for example Snipe ganking in the past with low risk & high reward). If you think of this that way, then Ball Group also technically falls into that category of "low risk & high reward" problem.

wotevah

Loooree wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Oh please. You guys can post cherry picked videos as much as you want but irl your "coordinated teams" just ignores each other so all of yours fairytales about how easy it to break them are pointless

Then make your own "coordinated team" and don't ignore ballgroups. Hope I helped.

wotevah wrote: »

randomly pulled out of the video...



604 kills for 3 deaths is not a healthy balance for a PVP game. The gap between the best and the mediocre needs to be closer.

Why?

Why...

Think of Cyrodil as an ecosystem. If you eat too much too quickly you destroy your food chain then you will eventually starve. Give them a fighting chance and they may stick around more, giving everyone more fights and more fun.

Dojohoda

Organized groups make use of the mechanics in the game. It seems clear to me that the groups keep up with changes in the game and use the best combination of sets, classes, and skills which allows them to plow through just about anything.

Those in charge of these mechanics, the sets and skills, seem unable or unwilling to address the issues brought up by players. For instance, we have yet to see a response to feedback regarding the stacked HOTs.

To be clear, I am not giving organized groups a pass. Some seem only interested in farming AP at the expense of everything. AP is fairly worthless while making your opponents disgusted at "PVP in ESO" and further reducing interest in the game, is bad. Just because the combat designers enable this particular playstyle doesn't make it okay. When the group drops off the side of the keep after circling for a long while doing their rinse and repeat AOE bombing, we know without a doubt that there's a huge problem with combat design.

OBJnoob

Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?

Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?

Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?

The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. [snip] a numbers advantage??

[edited for baiting]

AndreNoir

Loooree wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Oh please. You guys can post cherry picked videos as much as you want but irl your "coordinated teams" just ignores each other so all of yours fairytales about how easy it to break them are pointless

Then make your own "coordinated team" and don't ignore ballgroups. Hope I helped.

The entire game mode is about objectives and not about instagibing players one by one 1 vs 12. So go help yourself.
Thanks to folks like you the PvP in this game is deserve to die

jaws343

OBJnoob wrote: »

Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?

Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?

Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?

The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. [snip] a numbers advantage??

[edited for baiting]

As has been said, there is a distinct difference that 1 unkillable 1vxer and an unkillable ball group have on the campaign and on PVP in general.

An unkillable solo player holding down a resource is largely irrelevant. And them taking on 5x their number is 5 players. Add a full group on them and they are likely going to die. But, say they don't. Well, that player can just be ignored. They aren't threatening keeps, certainly aren't taking keeps or preventing keeps from being taken. They are just 1 person holding a resource. They are irrelevant to the flow of combat in Cyrodil.

Whereas, the unkillable group, who eats an entire faction stack repeatedly, are a legitimate problem for keeps and for the flow of combat. If you leave them alone, they take your keep. If you leave them alone, they flag your back keeps and prevent you from transporting around them on the map. And they do it repeatedly, to the point where, you either lose keeps to them, or you repeatedly faction stack them, over and over again, as they respawn and continue to do this. Fighting a ball group like this is never a "just ignore them" scenario, because even if, after 40 minutes of chasing them around a keep you kill them, guess what, there they are again at the next keep. Or right back inside your keep 10 mins later after they respawn nearby. And here you are, faction stacking them again and again and again.

Trying to compare them to solo players is just insanely disingenuous.

Vizir

OBJnoob wrote: »

Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?

Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?

Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?

The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. [snip] a numbers advantage??

[edited for baiting]

But at the same time how many people actually run those very poorly optimized builds for literally everything else besides countering ball groups. I love finding bombers in the wild easiest solo kills I ever get. For most situations people aren't geared to counter ball groups. Should I run my nb as a bomber for 1v1? what about 1v2? 2v2? 2v3? 3v3? 1v3? No ofc not it's bad. And there is a reason people don't run them.

If I spec my nb bomb build and run into a dude running around who happened to pop a detect pot I die as most do. So I dont run my bomb build unless I know for sure a ball group is there and not that many solo pugs. But the ball group has to also be engaged with others so that they arent looking around for the unstealthed proxy cast. But then I also need to be able to get out of combat to change the build. But I also need the skill points to be able to complete 2 separate builds. But I also need to either have enough cp for 2 separate builds or have the time to change cp. But I also have to have the skill to pull it off being as absolutely squishy as it is. But I also need to be a nb. If I'm a magdk what exactly is a good counter ball group build? Talons? Won't do anything against snow treaders or RAT or shuffle or phantasmal escape or bir of prey and won't do much damage because the pug that hits it needs to be wearing harmony. Is whip good against ball groups? FOO spam? No and yet that's what most dks run.

Genuinely what's a good counter ball group solo/duo/triple build that isn't a liability in a 1v1 or small scale.

bachpain

Everyone can argue around in circles all day, but when everyone in a group can be the tank, healer and DPS it is just plain broke. That is the current situation with ESO and the ability to synergize groups for PVP with heal stacking, ability scaling, and set bonuses. It isn't about group vs nongrouped. It is a broken game that has led to PVP being toxic for everyone that isn't in ball groups. All the while we watch the entire combat system being shifted by rolls of the dice from update to update.

ShadowProc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

a ballgroup is perfectly balanced and within their rights to kill 120

They generally don't win the objective, nor do they actually wipe the whole zerg. They stall the fight and hold the objective hostage by running in circles so they can kill the same handful of disorganized casuals over and over. The solo equivalent would be running around an enemy resource tower for 20 mintues and your only kills are this one same 20k hp guy.

This is so true. They be like "We so strong. We killed 120 easily." Reality is it was 120/same 20 people=6

ShadowProc

OBJnoob wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

a ballgroup is perfectly balanced and within their rights to kill 120

They generally don't win the objective, nor do they actually wipe the whole zerg. They stall the fight and hold the objective hostage by running in circles so they can kill the same handful of disorganized casuals over and over. The solo equivalent would be running around an enemy resource tower for 20 mintues and your only kills are this one same 20k hp guy.

I'm not defending their right to troll I'm just saying the power imbalance between a ballgroup and a 12man casual Zerg isn't that different than the imbalance between a solo Xer and a casual midyear mayhemer.

And honestly isn't the solo guy running around a tower for 20 minutes only killing the casuals who worry more about chasing than managing their resources and accidently get there first over and over again... Isn't that EXACTLY the way it's done?

So I'm afraid I don't see your last point either. Seems more like a point for me. Exact same playstyle, exact same victims, exact same complaint.

The solo guy does not have sets doing the killing/snare immunity/etc , other players healing him, other players giving free buffs and utility, etc for him. That's the difference. Oh and thinking for him.

Elendir2am

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The poster above makes a great point - there ARE many moments when ball groups are vulnerable IF you know what to look for. However, most random zone players have no idea how to read the battlefield and do not know much about basic game mechanics, so they miss those opportunities when they arise. Similarly, they can often negatively impact the ability of more experienced players to fight them by giving ball groups things that they want like free Hard-CC immunity via their random, uncoordinated Stuns, easy VD/PB procs, etc.

That is difference between good and bad ball. Both can harvest zerg very effectively, but bad ball will eventually enter place, where the get bom-wiped. Observing good balls and waiting for them enter such place is long if not infinete.

Vizir wrote: »

If I spec my nb bomb build and run into a dude running around who happened to pop a detect pot I die as most do. So I dont run my bomb build unless I know for sure a ball group is there and not that many solo pugs. But the ball group has to also be engaged with others so that they arent looking around for the unstealthed proxy cast. But then I also need to be able to get out of combat to change the build. But I also need the skill points to be able to complete 2 separate builds. But I also need to either have enough cp for 2 separate builds or have the time to change cp. But I also have to have the skill to pull it off being as absolutely squishy as it is. But I also need to be a nb. If I'm a magdk what exactly is a good counter ball group build? Talons? Won't do anything against snow treaders or RAT or shuffle or phantasmal escape or bir of prey and won't do much damage because the pug that hits it needs to be wearing harmony. Is whip good against ball groups? FOO spam? No and yet that's what most dks run.

As DK, I focus on debuffing with my anti-ball setup. With proximity bomb and inner breath only, I cannot do classic bombing. But If I debuff them in meatball and oil AoE with mangle and defiler (+Snake in the Star), it can be critical for them.

OBJnoob

jaws343 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?

Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?

Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?

The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. And how much further can we go before we've effectively neutered teamwork and artificially decreased the most logical and elementary advantage anyone could have in anything-- a numbers advantage??

As has been said, there is a distinct difference that 1 unkillable 1vxer and an unkillable ball group have on the campaign and on PVP in general.

An unkillable solo player holding down a resource is largely irrelevant. And them taking on 5x their number is 5 players. Add a full group on them and they are likely going to die. But, say they don't. Well, that player can just be ignored. They aren't threatening keeps, certainly aren't taking keeps or preventing keeps from being taken. They are just 1 person holding a resource. They are irrelevant to the flow of combat in Cyrodil.

Whereas, the unkillable group, who eats an entire faction stack repeatedly, are a legitimate problem for keeps and for the flow of combat. If you leave them alone, they take your keep. If you leave them alone, they flag your back keeps and prevent you from transporting around them on the map. And they do it repeatedly, to the point where, you either lose keeps to them, or you repeatedly faction stack them, over and over again, as they respawn and continue to do this. Fighting a ball group like this is never a "just ignore them" scenario, because even if, after 40 minutes of chasing them around a keep you kill them, guess what, there they are again at the next keep. Or right back inside your keep 10 mins later after they respawn nearby. And here you are, faction stacking them again and again and again.

Trying to compare them to solo players is just insanely disingenuous.

I'm not trying to say solo players and ball-groups are the same. I'm trying to demonstrate how powerful one good player can be and draw, from there, a line to where ball-groups could be expected to be in a balanced game.

It may not currently be as far off the mark as some people think.

If people are tired of big groups then let's just suggest reducing the max group size. Isn't that much more simple and helpful and logical?

Telling people they can't heal their teammates in PvP (or calling it exploitative, lol,) is like telling tanks they shouldn't taunt in PvE. This isn't fixing anything it is breaking it.

Someone... And I forget who... Made the comment "every member of the group is a tank AND a dps AND and healer, it's madness." And again I can't help but see parallels between groups and talented solo players.

We're all tanky blobs of OP self healing that somehow manage to do way too much damage. It really is no wonder that if you get 12 of us together we can't die. You're all trying to treat the symptom not the disease.

And to be clear I'm only really talking about one thing. Limiting HoT stacks. A terrible idea.