Ball groups destroying everything fun about pvp

Cloudrest

All of these people who play in Ballgroups coming out of the woods to try and say that limiting same-morph heal-stacking isn't going to make them any less tankier.

Great! Why defend heal stacking so hard, then? Makes me wonder. If it isn't going to severely limit your survivability, you shouldn't have any problems with it being implemented then, right?

"We'll just adapt."

Cool-- means you'll be trading damage for survivability then, thusly nerfing ballgroups!

At the end of the day, I don't really care about the playstyle of Ballgroups. I do care about it making the game borderline unplayable whenever they're around, though. Inb4 someone says it's not the Ballgroup making the game lag, sorry but you are. Game's playable whenever there's two zergs fighting, but server latency jumps off a cliff whenever there's a ballgroup around. If there's two, I might as well just wait until midnight to even be able to try and play so my abilities will actually cast.

SimonThesis

Organization beats less organization, especially with how many group buffs and buff sets in the game.

12 players in meta sets with more raid buffs and buff sets than you get from a trial dummy will beat an unorganized mass in offmeta sets, hot stacking or not. Ballgroups have a ton of very clever theorycrafters they'll just adapt and be stronger for it, no hot stacking they'll have everyone run selfish hots and rely on damage shields more. When ballgroupers say they'll adapt they mean someone will just find something even more broken and they will all be harder to kill. PB was supposed to be the end to ballgroups and the ballgroups just ran it instead.

Ballgroups actually routinely fight each other, just watch Morgans streams. They even used to have ballgroup tournaments with 5+ ballgroups in one town back in the day. What makes ballgroup v. ballgroup fights long are the necrorezes.

Cloudrest

SimonThesis wrote: »

Organization beats less organization, especially with how many group buffs and buff sets in the game. 12 players in meta sets with more raid buffs and buff sets than you get from a trial dummy will beat an unorganized mass in offmeta sets, hot stacking or not.

Noone's saying it should be the other way around. Just that the pendulum has swung too far in one direction, and that it's ruining the game for a lot of players. The only "skill" involved in Ballgrouping is the calls of the crown/group lead; otherwise, you can practically turn your brain off as a DPS. Heal/support requires you to at least know what's going on.

Smallscaling (4 man) v Zerg is much more skill expressive and impressive than 12 v Zerg. There's much less room for error. How do these smallscale groups survive against the same #'s as Ballgroups with only one third of the players to rely on? Healstacking! Incredible, I know.

SimonThesis wrote: »

Ballgroups have a ton of very clever theorycrafters they'll just adapt and be stronger for it, no hot stacking they'll have everyone run selfish hots and rely on damage shields more. When ballgroupers say they'll adapt they mean someone will just find something even more broken and they will all be harder to kill.

Saying that they'll find something even more broken to abuse isn't an argument against addressing the longstanding issues with crosshealing and healstacking. Even if this was true, 20-30k+ healing per second from layered crosshealing is a lot harder to kill than 5-10k healing per second through selfish HoTs and shields. You can't burst the former, but you can certainly burst the latter. If they want to have the same survivability, they're going to have to make sacrifices to achieve it, which they don't currently have to do.

Irregardless, there's nothing in the game currently that's capable of emulating the strength of having 10-12 echoing vigors and god-knows-how-many radiating regeneration's ticking on you at the same time, along with healing orbs, bone shield synergies, polar winds, etc. It's why there's so many people who play in Ballgroups coming out of the woodwork to try and convince people otherwise, that it won't change anything, and that they'll simply find something more broken-- they don't want it to change. Noone's asking for Ballgroups to be effectively removed from the game, just to make them more reasonable to fight against for the average player. Limiting same-morph healing would go a long way to achieving that, and it might actually inject some skill into being able to 12 v Zerg and survive effectively.

SimonThesis wrote: »

Ballgroups actually routinely fight each other, just watch Morgans streams. They even used to have ballgroup tournaments with 5+ ballgroups in one town back in the day. What makes ballgroup v. ballgroup fights long are the necrorezes.

What makes them long is the amount of heals they've managed to stack ontop of one another. Necro rez is another problem that also deserves addressing IMHO-- it's a get out of jail free button whenever one of them does manage to die somehow.

TechMaybeHic

The ball groups being highest level of play part is hilarious to me. There's only maybea couple to be impressed by. I know so many good ball group players have left to where they consolidated and then there are ones that picked up a lot of weak links and now run 2 groups or more with the new tab marking and often also run for line of site if anything close to their numbers show up.

Using LOS when you are outnumber is annoying delay tactic, but kind of expected. Using LOS when you got close to numbers is declaration of inferiority. LOS with equal numbers as a ball group is pathetic

OBJnoob

I wouldn't say ballgrouping is the highest level of skill but I would say it's the highest level of play. What I mean by that I guess is that, Vet Maelstrom Arena for instance, it's very hard and if you can do it solo you're a good player. There's nobody to help you and no one to blame but yourself. If you get very good at VMA then you're VERY good. VDSA on the other hand is for a 4man. So if you aren't the best DPS or tank well that's okay because maybe the other DPS or healer can carry some of your weight and as long as you don't stand in stupid it's all good. Then you get into some vet trials and now there's so many people that honestly you can afford to have one or two total duds that perhaps literally paid for the carry. The Vet Maelstrom player perhaps has the most individual talent of them all, but the trial group is who are playing this MMO to its highest potential. In my opinion.

Now obviously this is all a metaphor for PvP. Solo -v- small-scale -v- ballgroup. The very good solo player probably has the most individual talent. But the ballgroup is doing what the game expected people to do. Allowed them to do. Encouraged them to do (by having group buff sets, cross heals, and allowing 12man groups in PvP.) Groups used to be bigger, as a matter of fact.

So people are upset that stacking 12 Vigors and 12 Regens gives everyone in the group 24k+ heals per second, even the less talented people, and even a very good group of small-scalers can't get through that. And so they choose to see the number as insurmountable. But if the ballgroup were faced with another ballgroup... And say 4 soul tethers, 4 D-Leaps, and 4 Dawnbreaker all went off at the same time on a chunk of 6 of them... Well, guess what? The needed number has been met.

The problem with ballgroups is the same problem with solo players and small scalers, as seen by those who complain about them. This is too strong, that is too strong, can't stun them can't slow them, how do they have so much damage but be so tanky blah blah. On the solo level most of us just hear these complaints and say "L2P," regardless of what skills are in fact probably OP. Or just don't chase, right? That's what we say when these things come up.

Well the solution here is "Learn 2 Group," and/or don't chase. But people don't like hearing that because they (going back to the metaphor now,) are a Flawless Conqueror and they value flexing personal skill more than they value teaming up and making an actual dent in the map.

Which is a totally legit viewpoint and style and leads to some of the best players the game has ever seen. But their comfort should not be prioritized over the grouping aspects of an MMO when the solution, if they really cared, is already so simple.

We have immortal permaCorrosive DKs "ruining PvP." We have 50k HP Polar Wind wardens "ruining BGs." And apparently we have ballgroups "ruining Cyrodiil." The problem is the same on all three levels. Survivability is too high.

Pretending it's only about ballgroups or cross healing is a terrible over-simplification. But you can see by the amount of agreement which viewpoint most people here have. And it's therefore easy to infer which kind of player they are.

StarOfElyon

Quackery wrote: »

For the love of God, can you PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE ZOS, do something about this plague that is ruining the enjoyment of pvp on PC NA-server!? AD has 4-5 ball groups and EP 2 of their own running around all the time! IT'S UNPLAYABLE, especially with how bad the servers are with skills not going off. We're back to the state of pvp before the servers were "replaced"! If you want to know what degrades it this quickly: BALL GROUPS!! Completely and utterly unplayable! How haven't you been able to do something about these groups after all these years?!?

God, I'm waiting anxiously for an mmorpg that doesn't frustrate me to the point of wanting to destroy the controller! ZOS, you do NOT deserve our money!!

My main issue with ball groups in IC is that they will thirst me across the map as a solo player. If I manage to kite them long enough I'm guaranteed to get a tea bag 😂. Was it worth the 50 telvar total y'all probably got off little ol me?

Cloudrest

OBJnoob wrote: »

I wouldn't say ballgrouping is the highest level of skill but I would say it's the highest level of play.

It's neither. It's a super-optimized raid composition providing every single buff set in the game with multiple dedicated supports and healers, pull sets, and plaguebreak/VD to blow up stacks of people. As a DPS, you can literally turn your brain off whilst pressing synergies and waiting for the group lead to call your ultimate. It's boring. It's why I play in smallscale compositions instead. It's more fun to 4v30 than 12v30.

OBJnoob wrote: »

But if the ballgroup were faced with another ballgroup... And say 4 soul tethers, 4 D-Leaps, and 4 Dawnbreaker all went off at the same time on a chunk of 6 of them... Well, guess what? The needed number has been met.

And they still take forever to kill one another.

OBJnoob wrote: »

Which is a totally legit viewpoint and style and leads to some of the best players the game has ever seen. But their comfort should not be prioritized over the grouping aspects of an MMO when the solution, if they really cared, is already so simple.

Again, no-one is asking for a Ballgroup to be 1vXable. That's an absurd assumption to make. Also, the solution isn't to create more ballgroups to deal with the ballgroups that already exist. It'd create more problems; IE unplayable lag, more players getting frustrated. Why are people so against simply toning down their nigh-unkillable power?

OBJnoob wrote: »

We have immortal permaCorrosive DKs "ruining PvP." We have 50k HP Polar Wind wardens "ruining BGs." And apparently we have ballgroups "ruining Cyrodiil." The problem is the same on all three levels. Survivability is too high.

Pretending it's only about ballgroups or cross healing is a terrible over-simplification. But you can see by the amount of agreement which viewpoint most people here have. And it's therefore easy to infer which kind of player they are.

Correct, Polar Wind and Corrosive Armor also issues, and they need nerfed as well. It's still not an argument about dealing with the issues presented by Ballgroups.

Ballgroups certainly aren't the only problems with PvP, but this thread is specifically about Ballgroups, hence why people are talking about Ballgroups in a thread designed to talk about Ballgroups.

Also-- what kind of player am I supposed to be, exactly?

OBJnoob

Cloudrest wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I wouldn't say ballgrouping is the highest level of skill but I would say it's the highest level of play.

It's neither. It's a super-optimized raid composition providing every single buff set in the game with multiple dedicated supports and healers, pull sets, and plaguebreak/VD to blow up stacks of people. As a DPS, you can literally turn your brain off whilst pressing synergies and waiting for the group lead to call your ultimate. It's boring. It's why I play in smallscale compositions instead. It's more fun to 4v30 than 12v30.

OBJnoob wrote: »

But if the ballgroup were faced with another ballgroup... And say 4 soul tethers, 4 D-Leaps, and 4 Dawnbreaker all went off at the same time on a chunk of 6 of them... Well, guess what? The needed number has been met.

And they still take forever to kill one another.

OBJnoob wrote: »

Which is a totally legit viewpoint and style and leads to some of the best players the game has ever seen. But their comfort should not be prioritized over the grouping aspects of an MMO when the solution, if they really cared, is already so simple.

Again, no-one is asking for a Ballgroup to be 1vXable. That's an absurd assumption to make. Also, the solution isn't to create more ballgroups to deal with the ballgroups that already exist. It'd create more problems; IE unplayable lag, more players getting frustrated. Why are people so against simply toning down their nigh-unkillable power?

OBJnoob wrote: »

We have immortal permaCorrosive DKs "ruining PvP." We have 50k HP Polar Wind wardens "ruining BGs." And apparently we have ballgroups "ruining Cyrodiil." The problem is the same on all three levels. Survivability is too high.

Pretending it's only about ballgroups or cross healing is a terrible over-simplification. But you can see by the amount of agreement which viewpoint most people here have. And it's therefore easy to infer which kind of player they are.

Correct, Polar Wind and Corrosive Armor also issues, and they need nerfed as well. It's still not an argument about dealing with the issues presented by Ballgroups.

Ballgroups certainly aren't the only problems with PvP, but this thread is specifically about Ballgroups, hence why people are talking about Ballgroups in a thread designed to talk about Ballgroups.

Also-- what kind of player am I supposed to be, exactly?

1) Thats what I meant by highest level of play. Pooling everything from all aspects of the game and forming it into the largest allowable group size to pwn your enemies. Im pretty sure that's the goal... Not that it is or should be everyone's goal. But if you'd never played this game before and someone said to you "this game has a huge open world zone with castles and siege weapons, group sizes up to 12, three factions, and 350 people at a time," I think you'd expect a certain amount of it.
2) Yes they take forever to kill eachother. And good BG Deathmatch teams do not? Two good duelers do not?
3) I don't think I accused anyone of wanting to X a ballgroup. But since you say it's more fun to 3v30 than 12v30 I think we should take note that 3v30 = 1v10. And a ballgroup is only 12. So I think you're closer to the assumption you assumed than you assume. Also, in that same sentence, it becomes clear that your small-scale group can kill 30. So not only should we expect a full 12man to be able to kill 120 (if the game is balanced,) but we should also stop downplaying the skill it takes to be in one. You can kill these 30 but not those 12? HMMM. It's almost like there's some skill involved with the 12.
4) You can be whatever kind of player you want to be. I was just saying that a lot of the people here are Xers and small-scalers and so some may have a bias against large groups. They may not find it fun, as you said. I wasn't trying to insult anyone. And your post shows how well you fit into the category so... What's the problem?

In the end, and I've said it before, but as long as Corrosive DKs are out there Xing, and Polar Windens are out there destroying BGs, and Xers are posting videos of 65 kills, and your group of 3 is killing 30... Then I find the current state of ballgroups to be proportionate balanced and fair. This is the only reason I bring it up of course. Because yes this is a thread about ballgroups.

If it were a thread about time to kill, this meta we're in, or overall game balance... Then I would say nerf healing. ALL healing.

If it were a thread about trolling or lag I would say reduce group size.

What I would not do is nerf teamwork in an MMO that already provides ample opportunity for everyone to fight outnumbered and win.

(I just saw your group is 4 not 3... Please assume the corrections for me.)

Cloudrest

OBJnoob wrote: »

In the end, and I've said it before, but as long as Corrosive DKs are out there Xing, and Polar Windens are out there destroying BGs, and Xers are posting videos of 65 kills, and your group of 3 is killing 30... Then I find the current state of ballgroups to be proportionate balanced and fair. This is the only reason I bring it up of course. Because yes this is a thread about ballgroups.

Could you post a single video where a 1vXer is fighting 65 players at the same time? 30? 15, even? You're talking about the total kills over the duration of an entire fight. A good smallscale can get 200+ in a good keep fight. A ballgroup 300-400 probably. It's not comparable.

OBJnoob

No I can not. I'm referencing React's video. And yes I concede the point that he wasn't literally fighting 65 people all at once.

Is this a stone that when turned will topple my stance? Or is this just you detracting from the overall scope of my point by bringing focus to a tiny detail?

I may have exaggerated. The point still stands.

OBJnoob

Cloudrest wrote: »

Could you post a single video where a 1vXer is fighting 65 players at the same time? 30? 15, even? You're talking about the total kills over the duration of an entire fight. A good smallscale can get 200+ in a good keep fight. A ballgroup 300-400 probably. It's not comparable.

And just to show how my point still stands... your own words again. A "good small-scale," shall we say your 4 then? Can kill 200+? And a ballgroup (3x as many people,) only 3 or 4 hundred?

Once again... Balanced. I would say, if anything, your 4man needs nerfing. But that would be petty.

Cloudrest

OBJnoob wrote: »

No I can not. I'm referencing React's video. And yes I concede the point that he wasn't literally fighting 65 people all at once.

Is this a stone that when turned will topple my stance? Or is this just you detracting from the overall scope of my point by bringing focus to a tiny detail?

I may have exaggerated. The point still stands.

I don't think your other points merited a response due to them having been addressed. But since you're insistent,

OBJnoob wrote: »

You can kill these 30 but not those 12? HMMM. It's almost like there's some skill involved with the 12.

Or maybe, simply, perhaps, that 20-30k crosshealing per second can't be overcome by anything except a ballgroup with equal damage or a faction stack of players + siege.

OBJnoob wrote: »

And just to show how my point still stands... your own words again. A "good small-scale," shall we say your 4 then? Can kill 200+? And a ballgroup (3x as many people,) only 3 or 4 hundred?

Once again... Balanced. I would say, if anything, your 4man needs nerfing. But that would be petty.

Nerfing crosshealing and healstacking would also nerf smallscales and force us to adapt. Don't know how your point still stands.

Amottica

Elendir2am wrote: »

I don't see problem of ballgroups as something to blame ball groups members. Seeing what max optimized group can do should be main goal of this. However, we should be able make theire life much harder, so they should actualy show their skills. It looks more like lobotomy now, when they can just repeat same pattern for long minutes. It is question, why ZOS is resisting to implement some counter play.

By the way, HoTs i so broken now, that clash of balls take long time to resolve either.

Organizing our own groups will make life much harder for well-organized groups. I live it here and in previous games with similar PvP.

After all, that is what this is all about. Making changes to the game and trying to make life harder for organized groups does more harm to everyone else as the well-organized groups adjust to the change better. They often use the changes to their advantage. History in ESO proves this.

OBJnoob

Cloudrest wrote: »

I don't think your other points merited a response due to them having been addressed. But since you're insistent,

OBJnoob wrote: »

You can kill these 30 but not those 12? HMMM. It's almost like there's some skill involved with the 12.

Or maybe, simply, perhaps, that 20-30k crosshealing per second can't be overcome by anything except a ballgroup with equal damage or a faction stack of players + siege.

And maybe there's nothing broken or hard to understand about that. Since small scalers and solo players do the same thing, with proportion to how big they are.

Cloudrest wrote: »

Nerfing crosshealing and healstacking would also nerf smallscales and force us to adapt. Don't know how your point still stands.

I mean not really though right? Cuz if you make the HoT weaker then your 4-man just uses the other morphs instead-- it was basically a mathematical wash anyway with only 4 and now the decision is just made for you. And if you limit stacks... Well, what number were you shooting for if you had to pick?

Ultimately... I just feel like the only problem with ballgroups is that they're the biggest intelligent fish in the sea so when you encounter it you can't always do anything. It doesn't do anything mathematically disproportionate to solo or small scale. It's just bigger.

And if you would like to fix this by making "things in general" die faster then I'm all for it. This would fix the problem mirrored on all three levels of PvP, and thereby make ballgroups more likely to succumb to big sieging blobs.

But people don't want that. Because then 4 can't kill 30. And 1 can't kill 8. They want to disproportionately adjust healing to fix a proportional problem. They want to be awesome... But not let them be awesome... Cuz if they were really awesome they'd play small-scale. Cuz it's more fun.

Elendir2am

OBJnoob wrote: »

3) I don't think I accused anyone of wanting to X a ballgroup. But since you say it's more fun to 3v30 than 12v30 I think we should take note that 3v30 = 1v10. And a ballgroup is only 12. So I think you're closer to the assumption you assumed than you assume. Also, in that same sentence, it becomes clear that your small-scale group can kill 30. So not only should we expect a full 12man to be able to kill 120 (if the game is balanced,) but we should also stop downplaying the skill it takes to be in one. You can kill these 30 but not those 12? HMMM. It's almost like there's some skill involved with the 12.

This here is showing, how narrow is your approach to assessing situation.

Yea, small-scale can wipe 30 headed zerg, but they need to be skilled, time there attack perfectly and often lure that zerg in some trap. Any mistake = death, not enough skill = death, skilled zergs who dont let you bait in trap = death. It is playstyle, which reward your skills highly and punish your mistake hard. (If it isn't some small-scale hid in resources tower far from any relevant forces.)

Amottica wrote: »

Organizing our own groups will make life much harder for well-organized groups. I live it here and in previous games with similar PvP.

After all, that is what this is all about. Making changes to the game and trying to make life harder for organized groups does more harm to everyone else as the well-organized groups adjust to the change better. They often use the changes to their advantage. History in ESO proves this.

And that is why harmony-dumping had to went off? It was most effective way for small-scale group to protect their faction from ball-groups.

OBJnoob

@Elendir2am

So when a small-scale "times their attack perfectly" it is skill, but when a ballgroup does it the dps were "walking around with their eyes shut until their leader called for an ultimate," right?

And when a small-scale lures someone into a trap (like say up to the 3rd floor stairs,)they are being strategic but when a ballgroup does it they are trolling right?

When a small-scale fights 5x their numbers it is skill but when a ballgroup does it the same thing it's broken mechanics right?

LOL. I'm not the one with the narrow view.

Amottica

Elendir2am wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Organizing our own groups will make life much harder for well-organized groups. I live it here and in previous games with similar PvP.

After all, that is what this is all about. Making changes to the game and trying to make life harder for organized groups does more harm to everyone else as the well-organized groups adjust to the change better. They often use the changes to their advantage. History in ESO proves this.

And that is why harmony-dumping had to went off? It was most effective way for small-scale group to protect their faction from ball-groups.

I fail to get your point. It seems the comment suggests that one change harmed small-scale groups and that such a change negates my comment and that is incorrect.

Regardless, a small-scale group with a good leader and player that play well and follows the group can clean the clock of a zerg/ball group.

Turtle_Bot

Cloudrest wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

In the end, and I've said it before, but as long as Corrosive DKs are out there Xing, and Polar Windens are out there destroying BGs, and Xers are posting videos of 65 kills, and your group of 3 is killing 30... Then I find the current state of ballgroups to be proportionate balanced and fair. This is the only reason I bring it up of course. Because yes this is a thread about ballgroups.

Could you post a single video where a 1vXer is fighting 65 players at the same time? 30? 15, even? You're talking about the total kills over the duration of an entire fight. A good smallscale can get 200+ in a good keep fight. A ballgroup 300-400 probably. It's not comparable.

Depending on which zone chat leaders are on, a ball group can kill in the high 100's (700+) if not close to 1000 in 1 session. It also doesn't help that the ball groups size allows it to actually threaten the map which demands a response from the zerg (which is something that solos and small scale cannot do at the same scale and especially in the same short timeframe).

I am yet to see a good counter argument for this factor to tone down ball groups power.

(The following is not directed at you cloud, but more in general)

Yes, solos and small scale can troll the map, but all they can reliably threaten are the resources or maybe the outposts, which can be dealt with much faster and for much less cost to the rest of the map due to there being 3 separate resources to ride between and flip to cut a keep (much slower) and the outer (AP) keeps acting as pseudo bypasses for the outposts and the outposts having short rides from their neighboring keeps for when you need to retake them. This is unlike a ball group that can flag a main keep and flip its flags within minutes if not responded to with enough numbers and with enough early warning.

Ball groups basically hold the map hostage to their whims or risk losing the map entirely (since they will flip keeps faster than the zerg can and you can bet that they will flip as many keeps as required then come wipe the zerg should the zerg choose to ignore the ball group).

It's a lose lose situation for the other factions when a ball group logs on, simply because not only do those factions need to deal with the ball group taking their keeps, but the ball groups faction still has their own zerg also pushing the map (which is basically empty if your zerg goes to deal with the ball group) at the same time.
This is why ball groups need toning down and why they are so frustrating to play against and why they are not comparable to solos or small scale. It has gotten to the stage where there's nothing you can do when they are on, you either simply log off or try to defend what you can against what is essentially the power equivalent to 2 factions attacking you at the same time (or 3 factions worth of power against 1 if the 3rd faction follows the ball groups faction to push your faction, which is often the case) because to simply ignore them is to have the same effect as logging off, you lose the entire map in less than an hour.

Turtle_Bot

Amottica wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Organizing our own groups will make life much harder for well-organized groups. I live it here and in previous games with similar PvP.

After all, that is what this is all about. Making changes to the game and trying to make life harder for organized groups does more harm to everyone else as the well-organized groups adjust to the change better. They often use the changes to their advantage. History in ESO proves this.

And that is why harmony-dumping had to went off? It was most effective way for small-scale group to protect their faction from ball-groups.

I fail to get your point. It seems the comment suggests that one change harmed small-scale groups and that such a change negates my comment and that is incorrect.

Regardless, a small-scale group with a good leader and player that play well and follows the group can clean the clock of a zerg/ball group.

clean the clock of a zerg, yes, a ball group, not unless that ball group is bad or gets caught out (see bad)

LarsS

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Yes, solos and small scale can troll the map, but all they can reliably threaten are the resources or maybe the outposts, which can be dealt with much faster and for much less cost to the rest of the map due to there being 3 separate resources to ride between and flip to cut a keep (much slower) and the outer (AP) keeps acting as pseudo bypasses for the outposts and the outposts having short rides from their neighboring keeps for when you need to retake them. This is unlike a ball group that can flag a main keep and flip its flags within minutes if not responded to with enough numbers and with enough early warning.

This is not correct, its true that smallscales have difficulties taking a keep, but they do influence the map and troll the zerg in their own ways. Two examples; If nobody go the resource they occupy they sieg the keep from the the resources cutting the transfer line forcing many in the zerg to go there some groups do this for hours. Another approach is go to keep sieges and disturbed and sometimes kill the noobs sieging. So smallscalers do have an substantial inpact on the map.

Both ways of playing is legal and require substantial skill and both playing styles can make pvp unatractive to people new to pvp. I agree with the suggestion to reduce all types of healing, this would probably help.

Zabulus

The gameplay against theses 2 or 3 ballgroups per server is just awfull.
It ruins the experience for all the other players.
Fun fact : devs do nothing. Obviously they dont care.

Elendir2am

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Elendir2am

So when a small-scale "times their attack perfectly" it is skill, but when a ballgroup does it the dps were "walking around with their eyes shut until their leader called for an ultimate," right?

And when a small-scale lures someone into a trap (like say up to the 3rd floor stairs,)they are being strategic but when a ballgroup does it they are trolling right?

When a small-scale fights 5x their numbers it is skill but when a ballgroup does it the same thing it's broken mechanics right?

LOL. I'm not the one with the narrow view.

You still ignore that small scale can be killed easily. You look just at their offensive power, but problem with balls isn't about their offensive power. You are still working with half of equation, ignoring other and call it math.

OBJnoob

What does everyone think about lowering the max group size?

I know that this answer is kinda distasteful and a sign of a declining game... But it does seem to fix the problem doesn't it?

Honestly the game is old and the servers suck. There may be nothing we can do about that.

I would rather just reduce group size than disallow teammates from healing eachother. As Im constantly saying... 1 good player can X 5. One good small-scale of 4 can X 20. The problem really isn't that one good ballgroup can X 60 because this is proportionate to what we see on other levels. This is what we love and expect from this game, isn't it? The problem is the group size is so big that amassing enough force to overcome it is hard. And the lag.

So reduce max group size, right?

TechMaybeHic

OBJnoob wrote: »

What does everyone think about lowering the max group size?

I know that this answer is kinda distasteful and a sign of a declining game... But it does seem to fix the problem doesn't it?

Honestly the game is old and the servers suck. There may be nothing we can do about that.

I would rather just reduce group size than disallow teammates from healing eachother. As Im constantly saying... 1 good player can X 5. One good small-scale of 4 can X 20. The problem really isn't that one good ballgroup can X 60 because this is proportionate to what we see on other levels. This is what we love and expect from this game, isn't it? The problem is the group size is so big that amassing enough force to overcome it is hard. And the lag.

So reduce max group size, right?

Doesn't really do much now with friendly target Markers. As is; I see more than 12 balled up often.

SimonThesis

OBJnoob wrote: »

What does everyone think about lowering the max group size?

I know that this answer is kinda distasteful and a sign of a declining game... But it does seem to fix the problem doesn't it?

Honestly the game is old and the servers suck. There may be nothing we can do about that.

I would rather just reduce group size than disallow teammates from healing eachother. As Im constantly saying... 1 good player can X 5. One good small-scale of 4 can X 20. The problem really isn't that one good ballgroup can X 60 because this is proportionate to what we see on other levels. This is what we love and expect from this game, isn't it? The problem is the group size is so big that amassing enough force to overcome it is hard. And the lag.

So reduce max group size, right?

All that did was buff ballgroups more because the pugs weren't as organized. Ballgroups have only ever run 12ish anyway and they're all in comms. I think bringing the group size back to 24 would help better organize the pugs. Your more likely to kill a ballgroup with 24 random people in offmeta sets than 12.

Amottica

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Organizing our own groups will make life much harder for well-organized groups. I live it here and in previous games with similar PvP.

After all, that is what this is all about. Making changes to the game and trying to make life harder for organized groups does more harm to everyone else as the well-organized groups adjust to the change better. They often use the changes to their advantage. History in ESO proves this.

And that is why harmony-dumping had to went off? It was most effective way for small-scale group to protect their faction from ball-groups.

I fail to get your point. It seems the comment suggests that one change harmed small-scale groups and that such a change negates my comment and that is incorrect.

Regardless, a small-scale group with a good leader and player that play well and follows the group can clean the clock of a zerg/ball group.

clean the clock of a zerg, yes, a ball group, not unless that ball group is bad or gets caught out (see bad)

And yes, a ball group. Shut them down and they are like paper. Skill and know-how wins.

xylena_lazarow

Quackery wrote: »

The most demoralizing part is that nothing I do helps.

For me it was quickly realizing that, as Zergling #78465357, it didn't matter whether I attempted to do anything requiring skill, or was just mashing enough buttons to approximate 1/60th of the zerg's total DPS and hard stun count. 60 bots could probably do as well as 60 random solos are doing against the balls right now, and the balls wouldn't know the difference.

OBJnoob

Elendir2am wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Elendir2am

So when a small-scale "times their attack perfectly" it is skill, but when a ballgroup does it the dps were "walking around with their eyes shut until their leader called for an ultimate," right?

And when a small-scale lures someone into a trap (like say up to the 3rd floor stairs,)they are being strategic but when a ballgroup does it they are trolling right?

When a small-scale fights 5x their numbers it is skill but when a ballgroup does it the same thing it's broken mechanics right?

LOL. I'm not the one with the narrow view.

You still ignore that small scale can be killed easily. You look just at their offensive power, but problem with balls isn't about their offensive power. You are still working with half of equation, ignoring other and call it math.

I'm not ignoring anything. When someone says "my small scale team of 4 can X 20 people," it means they are both able to survive and kill. Winning any ESO fight is simultaneously about surviving and killing. This really should've gone without saying.

Small scalers do NOT die easily. Give me a break.

I haven't introduced much math into this discussion myself. I just keeping pointing out the capabilities of solo players against less skilled small groups. And small scale capability against less skilled medium groups. And relating it to ballgroup capability against less skilled large groups. The exact numbers aren't important, they are just examples. But if 1 can beat 5 then 5 should be able to beat 25 and 12 should be able to beat 60. That's the only math I care about.

You can't try to balance something without asking "compared to what?"

Cloudrest

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Depending on which zone chat leaders are on, a ball group can kill in the high 100's (700+) if not close to 1000 in 1 session. It also doesn't help that the ball groups size allows it to actually threaten the map which demands a response from the zerg (which is something that solos and small scale cannot do at the same scale and especially in the same short timeframe).

I am yet to see a good counter argument for this factor to tone down ball groups power.

(The following is not directed at you cloud, but more in general)

Yes, solos and small scale can troll the map, but all they can reliably threaten are the resources or maybe the outposts, which can be dealt with much faster and for much less cost to the rest of the map due to there being 3 separate resources to ride between and flip to cut a keep (much slower) and the outer (AP) keeps acting as pseudo bypasses for the outposts and the outposts having short rides from their neighboring keeps for when you need to retake them. This is unlike a ball group that can flag a main keep and flip its flags within minutes if not responded to with enough numbers and with enough early warning.

Ball groups basically hold the map hostage to their whims or risk losing the map entirely (since they will flip keeps faster than the zerg can and you can bet that they will flip as many keeps as required then come wipe the zerg should the zerg choose to ignore the ball group).

It's a lose lose situation for the other factions when a ball group logs on, simply because not only do those factions need to deal with the ball group taking their keeps, but the ball groups faction still has their own zerg also pushing the map (which is basically empty if your zerg goes to deal with the ball group) at the same time.
This is why ball groups need toning down and why they are so frustrating to play against and why they are not comparable to solos or small scale. It has gotten to the stage where there's nothing you can do when they are on, you either simply log off or try to defend what you can against what is essentially the power equivalent to 2 factions attacking you at the same time (or 3 factions worth of power against 1 if the 3rd faction follows the ball groups faction to push your faction, which is often the case) because to simply ignore them is to have the same effect as logging off, you lose the entire map in less than an hour.

Oh, don't worry-- you and I both agree that Ballgroups need to be toned down. You and I both haven't seen a good counter argument to toning down their power because it simply doesn't exist. There's people trying to say it isn't broken (it is) or that they'll find something more broken because they have "good" theorycrafters-- they won't. There's simply nothing in ESO that compares to stacking that much healing ontop of one another atm.

Good point about Ballgroups being able to hold the entire map-- and the entire faction, hostage. Smallscales can certainly influence the map and hold up a zerg, but around 20 players is the upper limit for a good smallscale to tank with good healing and good line of sight. 30 is definitely pushing it. Ballgroups often require a faction stack to deal with them running around Faregyl or Arrius or Glademist for an hour, and even then, sometimes it still isn't enough, and people end up gated with no scrolls when the rest of the zerg comes to stack ontop of the Ballgroup and they end up logging off, frustrated. It's not comparable at all to 1vXers or Smallscales. Smallscales also have to be playing optimally when heavily outnumbered like that; one mistake will cause a wipe. Ballgroups can run around infinitely with their healing, and if someone does somehow die, they have a res ult-- no worries!

I don't even bother trying to fight Ballgroups 95% of the time. I learned that lesson years ago. However, I don't even have to be near them to have them ruining my gameplay; if there's one or more ballgroups online, I can simply feel the delay in the server's response to casting my abilities. They need nerfed, period. It'll be much healthier for the game if they're easier to take down for zergs. It'll also lessen the lag if it requires less people to respond to them, and if so much healing isn't being spammed.

The solution is limiting same-morph healing to two stacks of a unique heal on a player at the same time. You can have two echoing vigors, two radiating regenerations, two polar winds, two healing orbs healing you at the same time, so on and so forth- that'd be pretty balanced, I think.

Will it mean Ballgroups will run more dedicated healers and supports to be just as survivable? Sure, probably, but they'll sacrifice damage by doing so, which achieves the goal of tuning them down regardless.

Will it mean people will have to run more selfish heals and shields? Sure, probably, but that'll mean it'll require more of a brain to play in one of these groups, and it leaves a lot more room open for personal error when someone inevitably makes a mistake, causing wipes.

Will smallscale also take a hit? Yeah, probably. But the game will be in a much healthier state for 90% of the PvP population, which is what the game SHOULD be balanced around. Not us 1%ers. We'll adapt. So will the Ballgroups, sure, but things won't be as absurdly one-sided as it is right now.

Also disable crosshealing outside of group again, please. That was an amazing week in Cyrodiil.

OBJnoob

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Doesn't really do much now with friendly target Markers. As is; I see more than 12 balled up often.

SimonThesis wrote: »

All that did was buff ballgroups more because the pugs weren't as organized. Ballgroups have only ever run 12ish anyway and they're all in comms. I think bringing the group size back to 24 would help better organize the pugs. Your more likely to kill a ballgroup with 24 random people in offmeta sets than 12.

Fair enough gents. I find your responses a little confusing honestly but fair enough. For one thing @TechMaybeHic if target markers and standing nearby is all you need to do then it just kinda compounds my opinion that good ballgroups have skill and deserve to do what they do. The Zerg, faction stack, or whatever, has all the tools they need. They can even heal eachother, can they not? The fact that they choose not to kinda falls into the realm of "L2P," doesn't it? I think maybe actually grouping has some more benefits than you're considering. It is necessary for most group buff sets, for one thing. But I digress. I didn't like the idea either. And I'm not trying to drag you into a debate you weren't having.

@SimonThesis If this thread is about the exponential power advantage that ballGROUPS have then I would suspect cutting their number in half, for example, would have a much greater impact on them than splintering a bunch of already disorganized groups. You do realize that if you make the group size 24 again then there will be 24-man ballgroups, don't you?