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Ball groups destroying everything fun about pvp
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Vizir✭✭✭Elendir2am wrote: »
As DK, I focus on debuffing with my anti-ball setup. With proximity bomb and inner breath only, I cannot do classic bombing. But If I debuff them in meatball and oil AoE with mangle and defiler (+Snake in the Star), it can be critical for them.
Presuming they stand in meatbag and oils without either running out of them or killing you; sure, it's of middling help. You can't coordinate proxy or inner breath and so its not worth much.Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?
Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?
Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?
The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. And how much further can we go before we've effectively neutered teamwork and artificially decreased the most logical and elementary advantage anyone could have in anything-- a numbers advantage??
As has been said, there is a distinct difference that 1 unkillable 1vxer and an unkillable ball group have on the campaign and on PVP in general.
An unkillable solo player holding down a resource is largely irrelevant. And them taking on 5x their number is 5 players. Add a full group on them and they are likely going to die. But, say they don't. Well, that player can just be ignored. They aren't threatening keeps, certainly aren't taking keeps or preventing keeps from being taken. They are just 1 person holding a resource. They are irrelevant to the flow of combat in Cyrodil.
Whereas, the unkillable group, who eats an entire faction stack repeatedly, are a legitimate problem for keeps and for the flow of combat. If you leave them alone, they take your keep. If you leave them alone, they flag your back keeps and prevent you from transporting around them on the map. And they do it repeatedly, to the point where, you either lose keeps to them, or you repeatedly faction stack them, over and over again, as they respawn and continue to do this. Fighting a ball group like this is never a "just ignore them" scenario, because even if, after 40 minutes of chasing them around a keep you kill them, guess what, there they are again at the next keep. Or right back inside your keep 10 mins later after they respawn nearby. And here you are, faction stacking them again and again and again.
Trying to compare them to solo players is just insanely disingenuous.
I'm not trying to say solo players and ball-groups are the same. I'm trying to demonstrate how powerful one good player can be and draw, from there, a line to where ball-groups could be expected to be in a balanced game.
It may not currently be as far off the mark as some people think.
If people are tired of big groups then let's just suggest reducing the max group size. Isn't that much more simple and helpful and logical?
Telling people they can't heal their teammates in PvP (or calling it exploitative, lol,) is like telling tanks they shouldn't taunt in PvE. This isn't fixing anything it is breaking it.
Someone... And I forget who... Made the comment "every member of the group is a tank AND a dps AND and healer, it's madness." And again I can't help but see parallels between groups and talented solo players.
We're all tanky blobs of OP self healing that somehow manage to do way too much damage. It really is no wonder that if you get 12 of us together we can't die. You're all trying to treat the symptom not the disease.
And to be clear I'm only really talking about one thing. Limiting HoT stacks. A terrible idea.
Except that with the buffs over the years sets have gotten very good. Take olorime's. 100% uptime comes out to 568 wep/sp dmg per player, base + major and minor buffs. No class passives at play. 1 set 6800 group wep/spell damage. On an easy proc, 1 bar set.2 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?
Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?
Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?
The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. And how much further can we go before we've effectively neutered teamwork and artificially decreased the most logical and elementary advantage anyone could have in anything-- a numbers advantage??
As has been said, there is a distinct difference that 1 unkillable 1vxer and an unkillable ball group have on the campaign and on PVP in general.
An unkillable solo player holding down a resource is largely irrelevant. And them taking on 5x their number is 5 players. Add a full group on them and they are likely going to die. But, say they don't. Well, that player can just be ignored. They aren't threatening keeps, certainly aren't taking keeps or preventing keeps from being taken. They are just 1 person holding a resource. They are irrelevant to the flow of combat in Cyrodil.
Whereas, the unkillable group, who eats an entire faction stack repeatedly, are a legitimate problem for keeps and for the flow of combat. If you leave them alone, they take your keep. If you leave them alone, they flag your back keeps and prevent you from transporting around them on the map. And they do it repeatedly, to the point where, you either lose keeps to them, or you repeatedly faction stack them, over and over again, as they respawn and continue to do this. Fighting a ball group like this is never a "just ignore them" scenario, because even if, after 40 minutes of chasing them around a keep you kill them, guess what, there they are again at the next keep. Or right back inside your keep 10 mins later after they respawn nearby. And here you are, faction stacking them again and again and again.
Trying to compare them to solo players is just insanely disingenuous.
It is literally the most selfish style of play and should be nerfed. It ruins or lowers literally every other playstyle so that,noobs can be killed by the hundreds and egos enlarged0 -
Ender1310✭✭✭✭Ball groups are aesthetically unpleasant. They look horrible, and yes they slow game play. At some point it doesn’t resemble combat. It resembles idiocy. And read where players just want their abilities to work. Remove the ability to form larger raid groups in PVP, and get rid of hot stacking, and egregious buff stacking. If players want to work together on a larger scale, they can coordinate through discord, and their biggest advantage should be, the ability to communicate, and be at the same place when it is time to be so. The additional stacking mechanics are OP, and really no fun to play against.5 -
Elendir2am✭✭✭✭
Presuming they stand in meatbag and oils without either running out of them or killing you; sure, it's of middling help. You can't coordinate proxy or inner breath and so its not worth much.Elendir2am wrote: »As DK, I focus on debuffing with my anti-ball setup. With proximity bomb and inner breath only, I cannot do classic bombing. But If I debuff them in meatball and oil AoE with mangle and defiler (+Snake in the Star), it can be critical for them.
They don't stand in it of course, we all know that they don't. It demand precise timing, but I don't wand easy job. I want rewarding job.
Problem is, that with 4sec SitS I need time a lot of thing in small window in laggy situation and they can easily avoid impact by various counter-play. There is a lot of circumstances, when I don't see reason to try it at all, for example when ball PvDoor inside one of 3 gate keeps.
Disparity in skill demand is absurd. Balls got various OP sets wich helped them a lot, so counter sets should be as much powerful as them. If SitS was as good as them, this thread wouldn't exist.I'm not trying to say solo players and ball-groups are the same. I'm trying to demonstrate how powerful one good player can be and draw, from there, a line to where ball-groups could be expected to be in a balanced game.
You are comparing all ball group members to best 1vXers in this thread. This comparison is problematic itself, but main problem is, the ball composed from below mediocre players can stil farm zerg. They will get killed eventually, jet they can still hold hostage keep with half of your pop.
For example, this event I took 1 of my casual character to train AW skills (AD templar) in BR (EU-PC). I gave her SitS to inventory from my main PvP char just for cause.
Small part of training I spent on Sej when EP ball farm zerg outside. They run from outpost to outpost and every time went through oil field in front gate. So I took SitS and slotted "Razor Caltrops" and started to throw it in oil field.
Every Time they entered, first of them get debuff and died. Do you think, that they changed their pattern? No, they followed still same pattern. 1 died, they used necro-ulti again and again.
This wasn't unique situation, just one, I can easily describe.
So ball sets and style is so robust now, that some players can just easily copy others tactic and farm half of faction pop. Yes they will die eventually, because the cannot react/adapt on specific situations. However we don't speak about best ball groups being problem only now.
Although "best balls can be immortal, if they get inside inner gate keep" is problem either.PvP - Recruit.
PvE - Dragon food
RPG - A guy who thought, that he can defeat daedric prince, yet guards still chase him off when he accidentally touches some object during daily writs.2 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elendir2am wrote: »
Presuming they stand in meatbag and oils without either running out of them or killing you; sure, it's of middling help. You can't coordinate proxy or inner breath and so its not worth much.Elendir2am wrote: »As DK, I focus on debuffing with my anti-ball setup. With proximity bomb and inner breath only, I cannot do classic bombing. But If I debuff them in meatball and oil AoE with mangle and defiler (+Snake in the Star), it can be critical for them.
They don't stand in it of course, we all know that they don't. It demand precise timing, but I don't wand easy job. I want rewarding job.
Problem is, that with 4sec SitS I need time a lot of thing in small window in laggy situation and they can easily avoid impact by various counter-play. There is a lot of circumstances, when I don't see reason to try it at all, for example when ball PvDoor inside one of 3 gate keeps.
Disparity in skill demand is absurd. Balls got various OP sets wich helped them a lot, so counter sets should be as much powerful as them. If SitS was as good as them, this thread wouldn't exist.
You are comparing all ball group members to best 1vXers in this thread. This comparison is problematic itself, but main problem is, the ball composed from below mediocre players can stil farm zerg. They will get killed eventually, jet they can still hold hostage keep with half of your pop.I'm not trying to say solo players and ball-groups are the same. I'm trying to demonstrate how powerful one good player can be and draw, from there, a line to where ball-groups could be expected to be in a balanced game.
That's a fair point honestly. I don't mean to say that every member of a talented ballgroup can change their skills and gear and stand toe to toe with the best Xers in the game.
But at the same time I'm tired of the general mentality that they're all trash cans who can't do anything outside their safety net.
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NotTaylorSwift✭✭✭✭If players want to work together on a larger scale, they can coordinate through discord, and their biggest advantage should be, the ability to communicate
You mean like every ballgroup ever or what?
Also y'all say "spamming one button" or what not but our logs say otherwise. No I won't show you. You say it's mindless gameplay but you obviously don't watch the videos/content that a lot of ballgroups or ball 'style' groups put out. And if you do and still think the same then you either watched about 10 seconds or just don't understand and probably never will sorry.
Our ball group uploads videos of gameplay and we have a thread in the Alliance war section. You can watch some of them
there is gameplay with music and some clips with commentary. Even some deaths!
Edited by NotTaylorSwift on May 25, 2023 10:33PM5 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?
Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?
Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?
The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. [snip] a numbers advantage??
[edited for baiting]
This has already been answered and disproven multiple times by multiple different commenters for multiple different reasons on this thread and despite saying you "were done with the thread", here you are AGAIN, back doing and commenting more of the same....Edited by ZOS_FalcoYamaoka on May 26, 2023 12:25AM1 -
MipMip✭✭✭✭You say it's mindless gameplay but you obviously don't watch the videos/content that a lot of ballgroups or ball 'style' groups put out.
Exactly.
And concerning the title of this thread: in fact playing as a ball group is one of the fun options that Cyrodiil PvP offers, among others - or it wouldn't be popular since many years.
PC EU ∙ PC NA
'My only complaint about ball groups is that there aren't enough of them. Moar Balls.'
- Vilestride1 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?
Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?
Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?
The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. And how much further can we go before we've effectively neutered teamwork and artificially decreased the most logical and elementary advantage anyone could have in anything-- a numbers advantage??
This has already been answered and disproven multiple times by multiple different commenters for multiple different reasons on this thread and despite saying you "were done with the thread", here you are AGAIN, back doing and commenting more of the same....
So someone disagreed with me... And you agreed with them... So I've been proven wrong? I haven't seen anyone PROVE anything. Just spout a bunch of opinions-- same as I'm doing.
The only thing you're right about is that I said I'm done but now I'm back. You got me.
Things I'm right about but have gotten 0 points for [snip]:
1) Every solo heal is stronger than every cross heal. In the case of Vigor and Regen significantly so.
2) There are lots of gear sets and skills designed specifically for attacking groups.
3) Solo players can kill 5x their number, so why can't a 12man kill 60 without being unbalanced?
Ways my points have been "proven" wrong:
1) Group play shouldn't be the only way to play!
- Right, because suggesting you may need a coordinated 12man to beat a coordinated 12man is clearly my subversive way of saying solo players are useless and deserve to die. You guys got me there! Saw right through me. As always.
2) But they don't even take the keep! They just troll us!
- Totally on topic, not emotional at all, and definitely a court-worthy rebuttle for why they deserve to be nerfed. After all, nobody else of smaller compliment would EVER do something like that.
3) Noob, you're just getting your jollies off by picking fights and offering no substance to the debate. By the way, you're a big dumbdumb.
- Thank goodness you folks are here to keep me straight. Man... If I ever do actually leave these forums then you all will be able to facilitate some real change!
4) You said in one post that 12 people can beat 60 but you also said that 4 people may beat 10 you contradicted yourself noob now nothing you ever say will matter.
- It's all about skill gap. The problem you people have is that these ball-groups are not bad players. You need to pretend they are so that you can blame the mechanics, get them nerfed, go back to Xing them, and talking about how skilled you are. [snip]
[Edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Phoenix on May 26, 2023 1:01AM2 -
Vizir✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?
Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?
Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?
The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. And how much further can we go before we've effectively neutered teamwork and artificially decreased the most logical and elementary advantage anyone could have in anything-- a numbers advantage??
This has already been answered and disproven multiple times by multiple different commenters for multiple different reasons on this thread and despite saying you "were done with the thread", here you are AGAIN, back doing and commenting more of the same....
So someone disagreed with me... And you agreed with them... So I've been proven wrong? I haven't seen anyone PROVE anything. Just spout a bunch of opinions-- same as I'm doing.
The only thing you're right about is that I said I'm done but now I'm back. You got me.
Things I'm right about but have gotten 0 points for [snip]:
1) Every solo heal is stronger than every cross heal. In the case of Vigor and Regen significantly so.
That is pretty misleading because you are talking about only 1 person's incoming healing. Yes to heal 1 person only, solo heals are a lot better, however cross healing rapidly outpaces solo heals when dealing with multiple people taking a similar damage profile. To use your own example going by eso hubs base skill costs/heals: Resolving Vigor (2984 stam) for 5388 health over 5 secs (ignoring minor resolve for now) vs Echoing Vigor (2984 stam) for 5220 health over 16 secs in a 15m radius. RVigor is 1078 hps, EVigor is 326 hps; RVigor has a 3.3x better hps, so long as you are dealing with 1 person. When you get to 4 or higher EVigor outpaces it.
*I'm not sure on how exactly aoe healing target capping works(If I use EVigor 2x will I hit everybody in the group?) so presuming a group of just 6*
With 6 people in radius it jumps to 1956 outgoing hps, that is for 1 person casting it once. With 6 people casting it you end up with 11,736 groupwide hps for 16 secs, for a groupwide 17,904 stam cost. Each individual has 1956 incoming hps for an individual stam cost of 187 per sec with 100% uptime, so using EVigor every 16 secs.
Now let's take resolving vigor. If everybody in the 6 man group ran it and was able to upkeep the stam cost of having 100% uptime on it, using RVigor every 5 secs, there would be 6468 groupwide hps for a groupwide cost of 17,904 stam. Each individual has 1078 incoming hps for an individual stam cost of 597 per sec.
RVigor has 55.1% the individual incoming hps for 319.3% the individual stam cost.2) There are lots of gear sets and skills designed specifically for attacking groups.
But again, how many work in multiple situations. See my prior response to you about it.3) Solo players can kill 5x their number, so why can't a 12man kill 60 without being unbalanced?
[Edited for baiting]
How often do solo players actually 1v5? 2v10? 3v15? 4v20? Not very often at all, and if so, like 1vxing in general, it depends more on the x than the 1.4 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For point 1, regarding HoT stacking, lets look at the numbers then shall we to back up my "opinions" to show just why heal stacking in it's current form, is an issue that needs addressing (weather it be limiting, removing or adjusting).Single cast of regen/vigor morphsRapid Regen:
1 target
3594 over 5 seconds
total healing done per cast, 3594 healing done every 5 seconds
or 718 healing done per second per cast.
Radiating regen:
3 targets
3594 over 10 seconds per target
total healing done per cast, 10782 healing done every 10 seconds
or 1078 healing done per second per cast.
accounting for the doubled duration of radiating, we multiply rapid by 2 to grant the same 10 seconds total healing, that is 7188 healing done over 10 seconds (2 casts).
accounting for the multiple casts required for rapid, we have 2700 * 2 magicka cost (it takes 2 casts to get that 10 seconds of healing from rapid) for a total of 5400 magicka over 10 seconds, whereas radiating only has a cost of 2700 magicka every 10 seconds.
Resolving Vigor:
self heal only (1 target only)
5388 over 5 seconds
total healing done per cast, 5388 healing done every 5 seconds
or 1077 healing done per second per cast
echoing vigor
6 targets
3480 over 16 seconds
total healing done per cast, 20880 healing done per cast every 16 seconds.
or 1305 healing done per second per cast.
accounting for echoings longer duration, we can multiply resolving vigors heal by 16/5 (or 3.2), giving us total healing done of 17241.6 over 16 seconds.
accounting for the multiple casts required for resolving, we have 2984 * 4 stamina cost (it takes 4 casts to get that 16 seconds of healing from resolving) for a total of 11936 stamina over 16 seconds, whereas echoing vigor having a cost of only 2984 stamina every 16 seconds.
This is all with only 1 user of this skill.
2 casters of each skill with the heal being stackednow we add 1 additional user of each of the skills.
Rapid:
2 targets
3594 per target over 5 seconds (or 7188 over 5 seconds if they both stack on the same single recipient)
total healing done = 7188 per cast every 5 seconds
Radiating:
6 targets
3594 per target over 10 seconds (or 7188 on all 3 targets if they all stack on the same 3 recipients)
total healing done = 21564 per cast every 10 seconds
Resolving:
self only does not stack
5388 healing done per cast to each recipient.
Echoing:
12 targets
3480 over 16 seconds per target (or 6960 over 16 seconds if they both stack on the same 6 targets)
total healing done 41760 over 16 seconds.
Lets take this to the full stack of 12 players and include healing done per second of each.Rapid:
12 targets
43128 healing done (only if all 12 casts stack on the same target) over 5 seconds.
This is roughly 8625 healing done per second by stacking this ability.
Radiating:
36 targets
129384 healing done or 43128 healing done per target if they all stack on the same 3 targets over 10 seconds.
This is roughly 12938 healing done per second by stacking this ability.
Resolving:
does not stack, still only 5388 healing done per target
This is roughly 1077 healing done per second.
This is so low because this ability cannot be stacked, no matter how many players use it.
Echoing
72 targets
250560 healing done or 41760 healing done per target if all casts stack on the same 6 recipients over 16 seconds.
This is roughly 15660 healing done per second by stacking this ability.
Total base healing value from stacking up those HoTsConsidering most ball groups run both radiating + echoing on everyone, that is a total healing value of 379944 healing done per cast, or 28598 healing done per second for the group from just those 2 skills only and that is only at base values, with no gear sets/weapons equipped, no buffs active, no CP.
With typical group buffs in PvP (sorcery/brutality, courage, mending, vitality, continuous, combat medic, which are all basic to organized groups) and 1 healing CP equipped, the base heal per target per ability is as follows:
echoing: 8862 (~2.5x)
resolving: 13716 (~2.5x)
rapid: 9150 (~2.3x)
radiating: 9150 (~2.3x)
Again, these are without weapons or sets equipped which increases those heal values exponentially and means that without weapons or gear equipped, the total healing done would be 934005 (nearly 1 million) total healing done or roughly 68907 (nearly 69k per second) healing per second from just those 2 abilities alone in cyrodiil after applying the 55% reduction in healing received from battle spirit.
What if solo/small scale had access to the level of healing that HoT stacking provides:The equivalent healing for a solo player would have rapids + resolving on that player and those 2 abilities would heal for a combined total base (no weapons/buffs/CP/etc) of 31662 over 16 seconds or roughly 2383 healing per second, just from those 2 abilities, not counting other burst heals, proc sets, other HoTs or anything else, all of which ball groups also have access to on-top of their current heal stacking capabilities. With no weapons/sets but buffs and 1 healing done CP, the equivalent healing for a solo player would be if vigor + regen healed for a total of 77833 from 1 cast or did 5742 healing per second from just those 2 abilities alone, not counting other burst heals, proc sets, other HoTs or anything else. FYI, intensive mender had a roughly 12-13k heal every 2 seconds (or roughly 6-6.5k heal per second) with a full build equipped (weapons and sets included) and it was nerfed into oblivion for being far too strong. Heal stacking is enabling OP intensive mender levels of healing without weapons or sets equipped, it is clearly not ok in its current form and needs adjusting.
The additional indirect benefits of what HoT stacking provides to ball groups that solo players and small scalers just won't ever have access to.This doesn't even take into account that ball groups now have free actions that aren't needed to be spent on actively healing the group thanks to HoTs constantly ticking for nearly 30k base healing per second. Those same free actions that are now able to be put towards other actions that diminish and remove counters to that playstyle such as negates, snares, status/debuffs/CCs or providing additional buffs/benefits that cannot be accessed by solo or small scale players, or just straight up simply dealing more damage via having access to more casts of damaging abilities.
Those additional actions are very important to include when discussing ball groups and HoT stacking because those available GCD actions are able to allow for reliable counterplay to actions/abilities that are supposed to counter ball groups and despite already having an advantage of numbers to facilitate more counter options thanks to free gear/skill slots that aren't available to solos/small scalers, this combined with additional free GCDs made available thanks to HoT stacking to the extent that ball groups currently do creates an extremely unhealthy level of counterplay availability to potential counters to that playstyle.
This issue of ball groups having the free GCDs combined with the free ability and gear slots to allow for the perfect counter to every single scenario while no other playstyle has this option available to them is one of the primary reasons why ball groups and HoT stacking in general is such a huge issue right now.
Well what about casting the solo heals on the same number of targetsTo counter the argument of "well what if those single target heals are cast on the same number of targets as the AoE HoTs, therefore they would have a higher healing value than those AoE heals", to that, there is the counter point, that doing so will cost significantly more resources to use and will scale with how many additional times those abilities need to be cast to match the number of targets of those AoE HoTs:
- rapid will cost 3 times the cost of radiating, to hit the same number of targets or 8100 magicka to heal 3 targets.
- resolving vigor actually cannot be cast onto other targets, but if it could be cast onto others, its cost would be 6x higher than echoing vigors cost to hit the same number of targets or 17904 stamina to heal 6 targets.
To make these AoE HoTs equivalent to their solo counterparts, the reduction in healing values to the AoE morphs would have to be so drastic that the skills wouldn't be worth using outside of stacking them.
- Echoing would have to have a healing value of 1/3 to 1/6 resolving vigors healing value.
- Radiating would have to have a healing value of 1/2 to 1/3 of rapids healing value.
Which is not what anyone wants to see.
Unintended consequences of ball groups having so much unchecked and exponential power.With ball groups running around completely unchecked, it has had a drastic effect on how tanky zergs and individuals have become recently.
While not being the only reason for this, the fact that the only way to potentially survive (not beat, but merely attempt to survive) a ball group is to have 40k health + defensive sets such as Mara's + insane mitigation values, hence all the groups of randoms have simply tanked up which has created a spiraling effect whereby other playstyles also suffer because now they are completely ineffective, while ball groups are still able to kill others because the current level of tankiness is not a guarantee that you will survive a ball group.
If left unchecked, this heavily hinders other playstyles in Cyrodiil which leads to even more ball groups forming to allow for players of other playstyles to actually kill other players which then tanks up even more people and keeps the process cycling as more players group up until it reaches its natural conclusion where only ball groups will play in cyrodiil, everyone else will simply not even bother entering there because there's simply no point in even bothering to enter there without a ball group as you will simply be unable to do anything without encountering whichever ball group is currently running at that time.
Why adjusting HoT stacking will be good for the health of cyrodiil and ball groups in generalThe good ball groups will adapt to any changes to HoT stacking such as limited/adjusted/removed and they will still be very strong (and much stronger than unorganized zergs and smaller or less optimized groups), but it will make ball groups in general (particularly the average ones able to be countered more frequently, especially if the numbers taking them on get to be large enough (which more than 60 should be considering that the pop cap is about 80 currently).
This facilitates more players wanting to stay in PvP because they won't be forced into choosing between
- being food or
- log off/do something else whenever a ball group is running.
It also allows ball groups to much more reliably counter each other making the whole argument of "form a ball group to beat a ball group" into a truly viable option if someone wishes to go that route.
This in turn creates a much healthier game overall that more people will want to play, the same way balancing the following
- snipe ganking
- HA ganking
- necro bombing
- convergance double pulling/rooftop pulling
- clench/javelin knock through walls/floors
- chains/leash pulling off bridges
- leap on-top of keep walls
- infinitely stacking mitigation
- NB teleport strike through closed doors etc
did so in the past as those playstyles too were completely ruining the flow of combat in PvP the same way ball groups and their infinite HoT stacking is doing so currently.
Notice how all of these methods of fighting that have been adjusted/balanced/removed were all small scale/solo playstyles (majority of them exclusively to solo/small scale), nothing here outside of convergence bombing and mitigation stacking was used by ball groups and ball groups have easily adapted to the nerfs to those playstyles to keep remain as strong as ever, the same way they will adjust to having HoT stacking adjusted.
The above numbers and maths on HoT stacking more than answers your point 1, solo heals are not significantly stronger than group heals, even when only cast a single time, especially when you take into account the actual total healing amount of the entire skill instead of selectively using just the per target healing value and it becomes obscenely apparent when these HoTs are stacked up infinitely like they are in ball groups which the opportunity cost doesn't allow for the same to be done on the solo morphs of these abilities or for solo/small scale players to do it to the same extent even with the AoE morphs.
For point 2Those same gear sets designed to counter ball groups have been incorporated into those same ball groups with even greater effect than if solos/small scales were to use those sets, because ZOS refuses to actually put rallying cry conditions on those sets to prevent them from being abused by the same groups they're meant to provide a counter to and because of the numbers advantage (which ball groups should have if they outnumber their enemies) those sets are just as effective outside of their intended targets as they are against their intended targets.
For point 3Solo players can barely kill 5x anymore, those that do have a significant combined skill and build advantage over the 5. No-one is saying the 12 shouldn't beat the 60 under those same conditions of much higher skill and build where their counters aren't being used, but as it stands even the mediocre ball groups are wiping the floor against much larger numbers than this which is the equivalent to a solo player of mediocre skill being able to consistently kill more than 5 players (see a solo DK going up against 5+ post harmony nerf necros or 5+ U36 magsorcs, which is another balance issue that is being talked about heavily on many other threads already).
There has also been countless anti-solo player threads that have popped up over the years and every time they have resulted in nerfing what were clearly overtuned solo/small scale playstyles. Why should organized group play be exempt from any of this when their playstyle becomes just as overtuned and overbearing as those solo/small scale playstyles?
More than just the numbersAs others have said, it's also not just about the numbers either. A solo player currently has very minimal impact on the flow of combat in cyrodiil outside of cutting a keep by taking resources by which point sending 1 group of 12 will more than likely route that solo player very quickly with minimal disruption to the map and combat overall and the time it takes to cut all 3 resources allows for plenty of reaction/response time, where as a ball group doing the same thing to a keep not only mandates an immediate response, it takes the vast majority of the faction to come and deal with the ball group which completely destroys the flow of combat in cyrodiil due to how low the pop caps have gotten over the years and often won't even beat the ball group away, but best case scenario, the faction simply slows them down for a minute or 2 while 1 of the ball groups NBs sneak out to place a camp for the rest of the ball group to res at (if they even wipe at all) and the group moves on to the next keep to draw the faction away all over again, repeating this process over and over until the ball group either gets bored or decides to they're done and log off for the day. You also cannot ignore ball groups because losing keeps is not an option in cyrodiil, especially scroll keeps, the home triangle, the last emp keep, etc. due to how important they are in facilitating the flow of players into the map where the other bigger fights are, meanwhile solo players/small scalers on resources can be completely ignored until the 3rd resource of a keep is taken, cutting the keep off, and this can often be dealt with by sending a small group to take back 2/3 resources while the solo/small scales defend the 3rd resource with minimal disruption to the map or combat in general.
Those 3 points you claim to be right about (your own opinion, which again by your own admission, an opinion doesn't prove you right either just because you agree with it), they can be and have been easily disputed, if not proven wrong.
As for your claims about your points being proven wrong;1. what you inferred from your statement of "make a ball group to beat a ball group" was that other playstyles should not be allowed to have a chance to play at all when a ball group is online or they should just accept that they are there to feed the ball group AP and as such, by taking it to its logical conclusion, the only way to play in cyrodiil whenever a ball group logs on, is to simply have a better ball group up and running (which is not a possibility thanks to HoT stacking providing the above average (not even top tier) ball groups with near immortality even to other ball groups resulting in ball groups actively avoiding each other because there's no AP to be made from that fight).
2. It's not the trolling itself and no-one said that solos/small scales don't ever troll, it's the level of trolling capable by ball groups, how it affects the map and the flow of combat and the demand of a response that ball groups require otherwise they simply take over the map entirely if they get ignored unlike those of smaller compliment who can easily be ignored for quite a long time and when required can be easily dealt with, without spending too many resources to deal with them.
3. maybe if you stopped reposting the same opinion in what can be easily considered a baiting or trolling way over and over trying to convert others to your way of thinking without backing up your opinion with verifiable facts and numbers, you might have drawn a more constructive response.
4. Nobody is saying all ball groups are skill-less players, many times it has been mentioned that skilled ball groups will always have an advantage over other ball groups, but as it currently stands with the current state of the game, it's not just the skilled ball groups that are completely overtuned in what they are capable of doing.
Since I know you're not a fan of reading long and indepth posts (you admitted to ignoring my posts in the past, I assume because they were long walls of text), I've put everything into easy to read and follow spoiler tabs that should help to make it easy to follow and understand all of the points being made.3 -
MISTFORMBZZZ✭✭✭✭✭you all can discuss forever, nothing will change - even if zos removes cross healing, hot stacking, buff siege, reduce grp limit. Groups will adapt till you make cyro a 1v1 arena. Deep inside, you know its true.3 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Ball groups existed from 2014-2019 without these problems. It wasn't until the change in combat devs in 2019 that the gap between gladiators and farmers started to widen dramatically, escalating these arguments.MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »you all can discuss forever, nothing will change
At the very least, delete Snow Treaders from PvP.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps11 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Not really. If for example there was a cap on how many same positive effects can be applied onto one player, this would be huge change and it would be mostly felt by Ball Groups. Imagine if for example you could have 3 Vigors max instead of 12. Solo & small scale would not feel that, but Ball groups (while still powerful & problematic to kill) would have to be more careful as their ability to outheal sieges would be significantly reduced.MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »you all can discuss forever, nothing will change - even if zos removes cross healing, hot stacking, buff siege, reduce grp limit. Groups will adapt till you make cyro a 1v1 arena. Deep inside, you know its true.
I agree with you on one thing - group that coordinates & has good communication will almost always beat non-grouped players. The issue is that currently one Ball Group can potentially fight the entire non-grouped locked faction population and not die. Even if we assume that for example Cyro will be "group only" - then you will have groups of 12 vs 12 vs 12 vs 12... and no one will die. That is how broken "Ball Group" playstyle has become. Ball Groups avoid eachother because Ball Group can not kill other Ball Group. This wasn't a thing in the past and Ball Groups used to fight against each other & wipe themselves. But today it is no longer a thing.
If the BiS thing in Cyrodiil can not be countered even by "itself" - then we have a core game play ballance issue. It did not happened overnight however as Ball Groups were less powerful in the past (and at the same time easier to deal with). But power creep did its job. VMA used to be very challenging, but with newer sets, skills, classes etc it had become easier. Ball Groups have the same issue and power creep made them unproportionally stronger to everything else.
Search forums and you would not find old threads where people legitimately complain about Ball Groups. It is a recent thing and started maybe 2 or 3 major updates ago.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on May 26, 2023 8:34AM4 -
MISTFORMBZZZ✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Ball Groups avoid eachother because Ball Group can not kill other Ball Group. This wasn't a thing in the past and Ball Groups used to fight against each other & wipe themselves. But today it is no longer a thing.MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »you all can discuss forever, nothing will change - even if zos removes cross healing, hot stacking, buff siege, reduce grp limit. Groups will adapt till you make cyro a 1v1 arena. Deep inside, you know its true.
/quote]
Idk whats going on on PC but on PS EU (where i lead ballgroup since 3 years) and PS NA, ballgroups kill each other when ever they see each other.
Just need to watch through the YT videos to prove my point.
And every ball group is killable, but if the random zergling isnt slotting any negates or droppes them without sense open field or in a ballgroups movement phase, who´s fault is that ?
Since purge (skill) has been made completly unuseable in pvp cuz plaguebreak, siege hits harder then before.
My group for example, removed most hots and is using burst heals instead. So we would care not to much about a hot nerf ngl.
Which brings me back to my point, as long cyro isnt a 1v1 arena the groups will always have a advantage. And also im active in forum since ages, first as quiet reader now as writer aswell. People have always been complaining and they will be always be complaining.0 -
Heals_With_Orbs✭✭✭I just don't understand these ball groups at all.
The people on these forums that defend them, are usually people who are in one themselves with the reply : -
"so you don't think other playstyles should be allowed?"
Yes I do, but not this stupid situation where players are invincible and unkillable, and some of these groups are sadly.
What kind of pvp game allows 12 people to run around immune to everything thats thrown at them? I've seen enough where when someone says "ball group at xyz keep" I no longer bother to go because the result is always the same, every day, every night. Ball group runs off with the scroll and trolls people for 30 minutes.
The answer has been suggested many many MANY times, but ZOS refuse to act. Why is this? are they afraid they might lose a handful of customers because ball groups will become obsolete? well how many more players are put off pvp because of these ball groups which are causing performance issues, lag, desyncing, and skills not to work properly?
Its incredibly selfish game play, not healthy for pvp in general.
The sets offered to counteract them dont work, i've tried them all, DC, PB, Snake in the Stars, various anti regen builds, enervating aura, langour, akatosh, mad tinkerer etc. They dont work.
ZOS have already stated they are keen to discourage these groups, but don't offer the proper solution, which is to change the game mechanics, and not what they currently do, which is offer more and more sets that these groups use themselves, and also sets that should he binned. To be fair, DC, PB and VD are fun to use in pve, but not in pvp. Not only that but these sets are used to wipe small groups, again, what is this achieving?
So ball groups continue to wreck havoc, more and more of them are appearing, because its easy kills for little effort and brain usage, and smaller groups are being hit too
Snake in the stars, what is that all about? The set can be cleansed. I thought the whole purpose of oblivion damage was it is unblockable and cant be mitigated, but it is called "star venom" its not a poison, its oblivion damage, and the 4 second cool down? absolutely no use whatsoever.
i've killed 7 people with these set, solo players. It doesn't touch ball groups, and why would it? when players have 12 instances of vigor and rapid regen, you may as well hit a player with stick of celery....
You cant please everyone, but what's more important? keeping these ball groups happy, or alienating the majority, who hate these groups and also putting of newcomers?
9 -
NotTaylorSwift✭✭✭✭Heals_With_Orbs wrote: »I just don't understand these ball groups at all.
The people on these forums that defend them, are usually people who are in one themselves with the reply : -
"so you don't think other playstyles should be allowed?"
Yes I do, but not this stupid situation where players are invincible and unkillable, and some of these groups are sadly.
What kind of pvp game allows 12 people to run around immune to everything thats thrown at them? I've seen enough where when someone says "ball group at xyz keep" I no longer bother to go because the result is always the same, every day, every night. Ball group runs off with the scroll and trolls people for 30 minutes.
The answer has been suggested many many MANY times, but ZOS refuse to act. Why is this? are they afraid they might lose a handful of customers because ball groups will become obsolete? well how many more players are put off pvp because of these ball groups which are causing performance issues, lag, desyncing, and skills not to work properly?
Its incredibly selfish game play, not healthy for pvp in general.
The sets offered to counteract them dont work, i've tried them all, DC, PB, Snake in the Stars, various anti regen builds, enervating aura, langour, akatosh, mad tinkerer etc. They dont work.
ZOS have already stated they are keen to discourage these groups, but don't offer the proper solution, which is to change the game mechanics, and not what they currently do, which is offer more and more sets that these groups use themselves, and also sets that should he binned. To be fair, DC, PB and VD are fun to use in pve, but not in pvp. Not only that but these sets are used to wipe small groups, again, what is this achieving?
So ball groups continue to wreck havoc, more and more of them are appearing, because its easy kills for little effort and brain usage, and smaller groups are being hit too
Snake in the stars, what is that all about? The set can be cleansed. I thought the whole purpose of oblivion damage was it is unblockable and cant be mitigated, but it is called "star venom" its not a poison, its oblivion damage, and the 4 second cool down? absolutely no use whatsoever.
i've killed 7 people with these set, solo players. It doesn't touch ball groups, and why would it? when players have 12 instances of vigor and rapid regen, you may as well hit a player with stick of celery....
You cant please everyone, but what's more important? keeping these ball groups happy, or alienating the majority, who hate these groups and also putting of newcomers?
https://m.youtube.com/@projectnova7056/videos
🤗
Edited by NotTaylorSwift on May 26, 2023 2:54PM1 -
Loooree✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Not really. If for example there was a cap on how many same positive effects can be applied onto one player, this would be huge change and it would be mostly felt by Ball Groups. Imagine if for example you could have 3 Vigors max instead of 12. Solo & small scale would not feel that, but Ball groups (while still powerful & problematic to kill) would have to be more careful as their ability to outheal sieges would be significantly reduced.MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »you all can discuss forever, nothing will change - even if zos removes cross healing, hot stacking, buff siege, reduce grp limit. Groups will adapt till you make cyro a 1v1 arena. Deep inside, you know its true.
I agree with you on one thing - group that coordinates & has good communication will almost always beat non-grouped players. The issue is that currently one Ball Group can potentially fight the entire non-grouped locked faction population and not die. Even if we assume that for example Cyro will be "group only" - then you will have groups of 12 vs 12 vs 12 vs 12... and no one will die. That is how broken "Ball Group" playstyle has become. Ball Groups avoid eachother because Ball Group can not kill other Ball Group. This wasn't a thing in the past and Ball Groups used to fight against each other & wipe themselves. But today it is no longer a thing.
If the BiS thing in Cyrodiil can not be countered even by "itself" - then we have a core game play ballance issue. It did not happened overnight however as Ball Groups were less powerful in the past (and at the same time easier to deal with). But power creep did its job. VMA used to be very challenging, but with newer sets, skills, classes etc it had become easier. Ball Groups have the same issue and power creep made them unproportionally stronger to everything else.
Search forums and you would not find old threads where people legitimately complain about Ball Groups. It is a recent thing and started maybe 2 or 3 major updates ago.
Is there some new server I don't know about? Where do you see those ballgroups avoiding each other? Is that a thing on PC-NA? Do you guys also build your ballgroups differently stacking 50k resistances with 60k hp and vamp stage 3 so nobody can't kill any ball member? Ballgroups I played with(PC-EU) always fight another ballgroups whenever they see one and kill/are killed by them. We never have endless stalemates. Some group is gonna wipe sooner or later.
Regarding hots it will change nothing. Ballgroups will have slightly lowered performance for 2-3 days after the update and that's it.1 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭HoT stacking is for GvG. For GvZ, LOS+speed is way to go, not heals (same as small scale groups).
Possible HoT nerf wiil only affect how ballgroup can survive under 4 oils + 2 cold fires without purge. Anything else they will adapt.Edited by mocap on May 26, 2023 3:56PM1 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?
Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?
Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?
The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. And how much further can we go before we've effectively neutered teamwork and artificially decreased the most logical and elementary advantage anyone could have in anything-- a numbers advantage??
This has already been answered and disproven multiple times by multiple different commenters for multiple different reasons on this thread and despite saying you "were done with the thread", here you are AGAIN, back doing and commenting more of the same....
So someone disagreed with me... And you agreed with them... So I've been proven wrong? I haven't seen anyone PROVE anything. Just spout a bunch of opinions-- same as I'm doing.
The only thing you're right about is that I said I'm done but now I'm back. You got me.
Things I'm right about but have gotten 0 points for [snip]:
1) Every solo heal is stronger than every cross heal. In the case of Vigor and Regen significantly so.
That is pretty misleading because you are talking about only 1 person's incoming healing. Yes to heal 1 person only, solo heals are a lot better, however cross healing rapidly outpaces solo heals when dealing with multiple people taking a similar damage profile. To use your own example going by eso hubs base skill costs/heals: Resolving Vigor (2984 stam) for 5388 health over 5 secs (ignoring minor resolve for now) vs Echoing Vigor (2984 stam) for 5220 health over 16 secs in a 15m radius. RVigor is 1078 hps, EVigor is 326 hps; RVigor has a 3.3x better hps, so long as you are dealing with 1 person. When you get to 4 or higher EVigor outpaces it.
*I'm not sure on how exactly aoe healing target capping works(If I use EVigor 2x will I hit everybody in the group?) so presuming a group of just 6*
With 6 people in radius it jumps to 1956 outgoing hps, that is for 1 person casting it once. With 6 people casting it you end up with 11,736 groupwide hps for 16 secs, for a groupwide 17,904 stam cost. Each individual has 1956 incoming hps for an individual stam cost of 187 per sec with 100% uptime, so using EVigor every 16 secs.
Now let's take resolving vigor. If everybody in the 6 man group ran it and was able to upkeep the stam cost of having 100% uptime on it, using RVigor every 5 secs, there would be 6468 groupwide hps for a groupwide cost of 17,904 stam. Each individual has 1078 incoming hps for an individual stam cost of 597 per sec.
RVigor has 55.1% the individual incoming hps for 319.3% the individual stam cost.2) There are lots of gear sets and skills designed specifically for attacking groups.
But again, how many work in multiple situations. See my prior response to you about it.3) Solo players can kill 5x their number, so why can't a 12man kill 60 without being unbalanced?
[Edited for baiting]
How often do solo players actually 1v5? 2v10? 3v15? 4v20? Not very often at all, and if so, like 1vxing in general, it depends more on the x than the 1.
An excellent numbers breakdown. I fear we're still going to disagree though. You seem to be demonstrating how Echoing Vigor can achieve higher numbers than Resolving Vigor. I think what you, and others, aren't realizing about my argument is that I'm considering PROPORTION. Yes, I know that at a certain number of people Echoing will surpass Resolving.
But at 6 people, as you demonstrated, each person will have 1956 incoming heals per second all casting Echoing on themselves. 6 people standing around pretending they aren't in a group using Resolving Vigor instead will have 1078.
6 people healing 1 will effectively DOUBLE 1 person healing 1. And you find this PROPORTIONATELY stronger?
I find this to be skewed in favor of the Resolving Vigor morph. And I find the difference between 6 people and 1 person to be much closer than they honestly should be. And therefore the limit on HoT stacks I would propose, if any, would be closer to 8 or 10 or yes even 12 than to what Ive seen commonly proposed which is 3 or 4. 4... A number only granted with respect to PvE, but for PvP would make it completely interchangable with the solo morph, and therefore useless.
2) How many uses do Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, Dark Convergence, etc have? I mean... Lots? Basically everything except duels. How many uses do the "ballgroup" sets have? Less, am I right?
3) How often do solo players 1v5? I mean... Fairly often? I admit I'm not good enough to do it reliably, but I probably do it once or twice a week? Some people in my guild, better than me, absolutely do it once or twice a night. Some content creators do is over and over and over again, I suppose, just like the ball-groups.1 -
Vizir✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?
Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?
Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?
The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. And how much further can we go before we've effectively neutered teamwork and artificially decreased the most logical and elementary advantage anyone could have in anything-- a numbers advantage??
This has already been answered and disproven multiple times by multiple different commenters for multiple different reasons on this thread and despite saying you "were done with the thread", here you are AGAIN, back doing and commenting more of the same....
So someone disagreed with me... And you agreed with them... So I've been proven wrong? I haven't seen anyone PROVE anything. Just spout a bunch of opinions-- same as I'm doing.
The only thing you're right about is that I said I'm done but now I'm back. You got me.
Things I'm right about but have gotten 0 points for [snip]:
1) Every solo heal is stronger than every cross heal. In the case of Vigor and Regen significantly so.
That is pretty misleading because you are talking about only 1 person's incoming healing. Yes to heal 1 person only, solo heals are a lot better, however cross healing rapidly outpaces solo heals when dealing with multiple people taking a similar damage profile. To use your own example going by eso hubs base skill costs/heals: Resolving Vigor (2984 stam) for 5388 health over 5 secs (ignoring minor resolve for now) vs Echoing Vigor (2984 stam) for 5220 health over 16 secs in a 15m radius. RVigor is 1078 hps, EVigor is 326 hps; RVigor has a 3.3x better hps, so long as you are dealing with 1 person. When you get to 4 or higher EVigor outpaces it.
*I'm not sure on how exactly aoe healing target capping works(If I use EVigor 2x will I hit everybody in the group?) so presuming a group of just 6*
With 6 people in radius it jumps to 1956 outgoing hps, that is for 1 person casting it once. With 6 people casting it you end up with 11,736 groupwide hps for 16 secs, for a groupwide 17,904 stam cost. Each individual has 1956 incoming hps for an individual stam cost of 187 per sec with 100% uptime, so using EVigor every 16 secs.
Now let's take resolving vigor. If everybody in the 6 man group ran it and was able to upkeep the stam cost of having 100% uptime on it, using RVigor every 5 secs, there would be 6468 groupwide hps for a groupwide cost of 17,904 stam. Each individual has 1078 incoming hps for an individual stam cost of 597 per sec.
RVigor has 55.1% the individual incoming hps for 319.3% the individual stam cost.2) There are lots of gear sets and skills designed specifically for attacking groups.
But again, how many work in multiple situations. See my prior response to you about it.3) Solo players can kill 5x their number, so why can't a 12man kill 60 without being unbalanced?
[Edited for baiting]
How often do solo players actually 1v5? 2v10? 3v15? 4v20? Not very often at all, and if so, like 1vxing in general, it depends more on the x than the 1.
An excellent numbers breakdown. I fear we're still going to disagree though. You seem to be demonstrating how Echoing Vigor can achieve higher numbers than Resolving Vigor. I think what you, and others, aren't realizing about my argument is that I'm considering PROPORTION. Yes, I know that at a certain number of people Echoing will surpass Resolving.
But at 6 people, as you demonstrated, each person will have 1956 incoming heals per second all casting Echoing on themselves. 6 people standing around pretending they aren't in a group using Resolving Vigor instead will have 1078.
6 people healing 1 will effectively DOUBLE 1 person healing 1. And you find this PROPORTIONATELY stronger?
I find this to be skewed in favor of the Resolving Vigor morph. And I find the difference between 6 people and 1 person to be much closer than they honestly should be. And therefore the limit on HoT stacks I would propose, if any, would be closer to 8 or 10 or yes even 12 than to what Ive seen commonly proposed which is 3 or 4. 4... A number only granted with respect to PvE, but for PvP would make it completely interchangable with the solo morph, and therefore useless.
Yes 6 people healing 6 people is twice as effective as 1 person healing 1 person when talking about 1 person's incoming hps. And that's disregarding the fairly significant stam cost difference. But you are still looking at it at an individual basis. If hypothetically a 6 person group was fighting 6 people and all 6 enemies only ever attacked 1 person, then yes it would be more effective to use single target heals because EVigor or other aoes would have alot of overhealing on friendlies who aren't taking any damage at all. However because people fighting ball groups can't coordinate to single target focus 1 person it becomes borderline irrelevant. As an aside that is why ball groups still have plenty of single target heals. Most solo/duo/tri builds can't have that much variety because you are alot more susceptible to being split up/focused.2) How many uses do Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, Dark Convergence, etc have? I mean... Lots? Basically everything except duels. How many uses do the "ballgroup" sets have? Less, am I right?
From prior response: But at the same time how many people actually run those very poorly optimized builds for literally everything else besides countering ball groups. I love finding bombers in the wild, easiest solo kills I ever get. For most situations people aren't geared to counter ball groups. Should I run my nb as a bomber for 1v1? what about 1v2? 2v2? 2v3? 3v3? 1v3? No ofc not it's bad. And there is a reason people don't run them.
If I spec my nb bomb build and run into a dude running around who happened to pop a detect pot I die as most do. So I dont run my bomb build unless I know for sure a ball group is there and not that many solo pugs. But the ball group has to also be engaged with others so that they arent looking around for the unstealthed proxy cast. But then I also need to be able to get out of combat to change the build. But I also need the skill points to be able to complete 2 separate builds. But I also need to either have enough cp for 2 separate builds or have the time to change cp. But I also have to have the skill to pull it off being as absolutely squishy as it is. But I also need to be a nb. If I'm a magdk what exactly is a good counter ball group build? Talons? Won't do anything against snow treaders or RAT or shuffle or phantasmal escape or bird of prey and won't do much damage because the pug that hits it needs to be wearing harmony. Is whip good against ball groups? FOO spam? No and yet that's what most dks run.
Genuinely, what's a good counter ball group solo/duo/triple build that isn't a liability in a 1v1 or small scale? The best bomber I've personally seen is Humiliation. And he's even pulled off some nice bombs in small scale. I've also rezzed him plenty of times because he gets focused because of how squishy he is. And in a 3v3, it's pretty easy to probe for weaknesses and get focused.3) How often do solo players 1v5? I mean... Fairly often? I admit I'm not good enough to do it reliably, but I probably do it once or twice a week? Some people in my guild, better than me, absolutely do it once or twice a night. Some content creators do is over and over and over again, I suppose, just like the ball-groups.
But it really depends on who you are fighting. As a mediocre pvper myself I won a 1v12 during MYM on a subpar stamdk build. And after I felt bad and it did not feel rewarding at all. Meanwhile I've barely won duels or have almost won against good players and felt great. Because it comes down more to the x than the 1. And while your guildies may do it once or twice a night it rarely would be against even average pvpers.3 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Do solo players not sometimes successfully fight 5x their numbers and win? Do they not use their power to troll more often than to actually take objectives? Same two questions for small-scalers?
Do sets not exist that are specifically designed to target large stacked groups? CP stars? Skills?
Is every solo morph of a buff or heal not significantly more powerful than it's teamwork counterpart?
The question isn't why doesn't the game introduce mechanics to help smaller teams. The question is why don't people acknowledge that there already is. And how much further can we go before we've effectively neutered teamwork and artificially decreased the most logical and elementary advantage anyone could have in anything-- a numbers advantage??
This has already been answered and disproven multiple times by multiple different commenters for multiple different reasons on this thread and despite saying you "were done with the thread", here you are AGAIN, back doing and commenting more of the same....
So someone disagreed with me... And you agreed with them... So I've been proven wrong? I haven't seen anyone PROVE anything. Just spout a bunch of opinions-- same as I'm doing.
The only thing you're right about is that I said I'm done but now I'm back. You got me.
Things I'm right about but have gotten 0 points for [snip]:
1) Every solo heal is stronger than every cross heal. In the case of Vigor and Regen significantly so.
That is pretty misleading because you are talking about only 1 person's incoming healing. Yes to heal 1 person only, solo heals are a lot better, however cross healing rapidly outpaces solo heals when dealing with multiple people taking a similar damage profile. To use your own example going by eso hubs base skill costs/heals: Resolving Vigor (2984 stam) for 5388 health over 5 secs (ignoring minor resolve for now) vs Echoing Vigor (2984 stam) for 5220 health over 16 secs in a 15m radius. RVigor is 1078 hps, EVigor is 326 hps; RVigor has a 3.3x better hps, so long as you are dealing with 1 person. When you get to 4 or higher EVigor outpaces it.
*I'm not sure on how exactly aoe healing target capping works(If I use EVigor 2x will I hit everybody in the group?) so presuming a group of just 6*
With 6 people in radius it jumps to 1956 outgoing hps, that is for 1 person casting it once. With 6 people casting it you end up with 11,736 groupwide hps for 16 secs, for a groupwide 17,904 stam cost. Each individual has 1956 incoming hps for an individual stam cost of 187 per sec with 100% uptime, so using EVigor every 16 secs.
Now let's take resolving vigor. If everybody in the 6 man group ran it and was able to upkeep the stam cost of having 100% uptime on it, using RVigor every 5 secs, there would be 6468 groupwide hps for a groupwide cost of 17,904 stam. Each individual has 1078 incoming hps for an individual stam cost of 597 per sec.
RVigor has 55.1% the individual incoming hps for 319.3% the individual stam cost.2) There are lots of gear sets and skills designed specifically for attacking groups.
But again, how many work in multiple situations. See my prior response to you about it.3) Solo players can kill 5x their number, so why can't a 12man kill 60 without being unbalanced?
[Edited for baiting]
How often do solo players actually 1v5? 2v10? 3v15? 4v20? Not very often at all, and if so, like 1vxing in general, it depends more on the x than the 1.
An excellent numbers breakdown. I fear we're still going to disagree though. You seem to be demonstrating how Echoing Vigor can achieve higher numbers than Resolving Vigor. I think what you, and others, aren't realizing about my argument is that I'm considering PROPORTION. Yes, I know that at a certain number of people Echoing will surpass Resolving.
But at 6 people, as you demonstrated, each person will have 1956 incoming heals per second all casting Echoing on themselves. 6 people standing around pretending they aren't in a group using Resolving Vigor instead will have 1078.
6 people healing 1 will effectively DOUBLE 1 person healing 1. And you find this PROPORTIONATELY stronger?
I find this to be skewed in favor of the Resolving Vigor morph. And I find the difference between 6 people and 1 person to be much closer than they honestly should be. And therefore the limit on HoT stacks I would propose, if any, would be closer to 8 or 10 or yes even 12 than to what Ive seen commonly proposed which is 3 or 4. 4... A number only granted with respect to PvE, but for PvP would make it completely interchangable with the solo morph, and therefore useless.
Yes 6 people healing 6 people is twice as effective as 1 person healing 1 person when talking about 1 person's incoming hps. And that's disregarding the fairly significant stam cost difference. But you are still looking at it at an individual basis. If hypothetically a 6 person group was fighting 6 people and all 6 enemies only ever attacked 1 person, then yes it would be more effective to use single target heals because EVigor or other aoes would have alot of overhealing on friendlies who aren't taking any damage at all. However because people fighting ball groups can't coordinate to single target focus 1 person it becomes borderline irrelevant. As an aside that is why ball groups still have plenty of single target heals. Most solo/duo/tri builds can't have that much variety because you are alot more susceptible to being split up/focused.2) How many uses do Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, Dark Convergence, etc have? I mean... Lots? Basically everything except duels. How many uses do the "ballgroup" sets have? Less, am I right?
From prior response: But at the same time how many people actually run those very poorly optimized builds for literally everything else besides countering ball groups. I love finding bombers in the wild, easiest solo kills I ever get. For most situations people aren't geared to counter ball groups. Should I run my nb as a bomber for 1v1? what about 1v2? 2v2? 2v3? 3v3? 1v3? No ofc not it's bad. And there is a reason people don't run them.
If I spec my nb bomb build and run into a dude running around who happened to pop a detect pot I die as most do. So I dont run my bomb build unless I know for sure a ball group is there and not that many solo pugs. But the ball group has to also be engaged with others so that they arent looking around for the unstealthed proxy cast. But then I also need to be able to get out of combat to change the build. But I also need the skill points to be able to complete 2 separate builds. But I also need to either have enough cp for 2 separate builds or have the time to change cp. But I also have to have the skill to pull it off being as absolutely squishy as it is. But I also need to be a nb. If I'm a magdk what exactly is a good counter ball group build? Talons? Won't do anything against snow treaders or RAT or shuffle or phantasmal escape or bird of prey and won't do much damage because the pug that hits it needs to be wearing harmony. Is whip good against ball groups? FOO spam? No and yet that's what most dks run.
Genuinely, what's a good counter ball group solo/duo/triple build that isn't a liability in a 1v1 or small scale? The best bomber I've personally seen is Humiliation. And he's even pulled off some nice bombs in small scale. I've also rezzed him plenty of times because he gets focused because of how squishy he is. And in a 3v3, it's pretty easy to probe for weaknesses and get focused.3) How often do solo players 1v5? I mean... Fairly often? I admit I'm not good enough to do it reliably, but I probably do it once or twice a week? Some people in my guild, better than me, absolutely do it once or twice a night. Some content creators do is over and over and over again, I suppose, just like the ball-groups.
But it really depends on who you are fighting. As a mediocre pvper myself I won a 1v12 during MYM on a subpar stamdk build. And after I felt bad and it did not feel rewarding at all. Meanwhile I've barely won duels or have almost won against good players and felt great. Because it comes down more to the x than the 1. And while your guildies may do it once or twice a night it rarely would be against even average pvpers.
I'm not looking at it individually... At least not on purpose... I'm just using the information you provided. In my mind, and I thought in yours as well, ALL 6 were casting Resolving on themselves. And we were comparing that to ALL 6 using Echoing on eachother. Each of the 6, in the case of Echoing, has 2x the healing of the 6 basically doing it themselves. And I'm just saying I don't see how it can be OP when it takes 6 people to do twice as much. They aren't saving a skill slot because they all have to do it. They are saving stam as you say... A lot of stam... And I appreciate you allowing me to glance over that little fact. It is important, and so is minor resolve, but not as important as what we're discussing which I think is raw healing power.
Also... Not as important, but to respond, I think it is a weird way to look at it that "you can't single out a single person in a ballgroup." I mean... If you want to fight a ballgroup you really shouldn't be using single target skills anyway. So. I'm not gonna stay on this point long because obviously you know that and just kinda brought it up tangentially... But, oe last thing, tied to something you say later about DKs: FOO is a fine ability to use against ball-groups. Sure it only hits 3 people but you can time an inhale and FOO to go off at the same time your D-Leap lands and this will chunk a decent few. Have a Warden coming in at the same time with some beetles and dawnbreaker... And maybe a NB soul tethering... And THIS is the tactic. Again... You know that. The only reason I'm bringing it up is because you later mention how you Xed 12 people but you felt bad because they weren't very good. And you say it's more about the X than the 1. Agreed. So why can't we just accept that some ball-groups are good and can't be Xed. You want to know what build an individual should use to try and kill a GOOD ballgroup? Solo?? My entire side in this discussion is based on the fact that that really shouldn't be possible. So. Not sure what to say. None? And who cares?
I'm doing a bad job of keeping track of what you said and responding in order. Sorry. I appreciate you speaking civil with me and I am trying to communicate clearly. You did a lot of talking about bombers in reference to my remark about "AoE burst sets." I wasn't really talking about bombers at all. Plenty of people run Vicious Death or Plaguebreak just as an open world setup. They have very good stats not even including the 5-piece and I see them being effective in battlegrounds as well as by small-scale Cyrodiil and 1vXers. And while I'm not super well versed in what sets ball-groups might wear I think we can skip this step and just agree that at least half of them are totally useless in every other application. Total trash if you're not in a big group. Just like Echoing Vigor
so while AoE burst sets do have limited use I hope I have demonstrated how the group-buff sets are even more limited.
Okay so I browsed through your post again to make sure I responded to everything important. I hope I did. But I want to rehash one more thing. Why do you keep asking me to provide solo builds or 3-man comps to tackle a ballgroup? I fail to see how this is important to the discussion or in any way a detriment to my argument. Why should 3 people be able to kill a ballgroup with any mentionable rate of success? Why does this problem need a solution? The solution is to get more people, lose, or be lucky enough to find those bad 12 you found.
12 people are on a seesaw. They outweigh the 3 people on the other side and hold them helplessly in the air. You see this and you say "this seesaw isn't balanced." You decide to move the seats of the 12 more towards the middle until the seesaw is perfectly horizontal with all 15 on it... 12 on this side and 3 on that. And you say "there, now the seesaw has been fixed." But can't you see that this is artificial? And in fact the seesaw, that had actually been fine, is NOW broken because it weighs things improperly.0 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭Edited to delete. It was a lame comment.
Basically I just feel like that recent back-n-fourth was pretty good on both sides and I hope some people can see me as a little more credible.
Edited by OBJnoob on May 27, 2023 12:02PM0 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭What are we arguing about. The ball groups said they will adapt. It's settled then.
Zos we all agree to nerf HoT stacking.
Thank you for agreeing with us ball groups.9 -
Quackery✭✭✭✭✭The most demoralizing part is that nothing I do helps. Negate, Streak, Daedric mines - nothing slows them down. Streak doesn't cc them, mines doesn't cc them, Negate is pointless because they're already been filled with a gazillion hots before I drop it. The MAIN problem is the immunity to cc, THAT is what makes them invincible.
I used to be able to do some damage to them before ZOS nerfed and removed sorc abilities. It's as if ZOS WANTS to kill off pvp by making ball groups as cancerous as possible.4 -
Vizir✭✭✭[snip]
So just to take a step back, I'm not speaking from my personal position. I don't have all that much of a problem with ball groups personally because I can simply avoid fighting them and can survive running around them picking off solos and pugs. Most of my builds are fast/tanky enough to avoid getting killed by a ball group when they come after me burning their siege. I can read the flow of combat to start to prep for the ult dump.
I am speaking more for the average player who can't do any of that. Of which there are plenty and ultimately there are alot more of them than us.
Disregarding this specific topic, pvp is not in a good state right now. The population has been declining for years now and really doesn't seem to be turning around any time soon. We have no pvp content coming in 2023 partially because there are just so few of us (yes speculation but it is a sound business decision so very plausible). Will there be pvp content in 2024? After the population is going to be lower than it was when they made the decision to have no new pvp content this year? I don't know, and that worries me. How long have we had lag problems? If it impacted 5,000 players instead of the actual 600ish, then maybe we would have seen more attention on it. If an apple seller is 10 different types of apples and only a few people like one of the types, it makes sense for them to stop selling it and focus more on the popular types.
We need new players, we need people to play MYM and love pvp and continue playing it. Not get the tickets and hate every second of it. I think it was the 2nd week of the endeavor system and the weeklies were either kill 30 wbs or do some amount of siege damage, I was in Blackwood crafting HConq and people were complaining in zone about killing 30 wbs. I said that the siege damage was alot faster and I could just go to an out of the way keep and drop a ram and they could just dump oils on repeat. Then chat became an absolute dumpster fire of how they all hated even stepping foot in cyro. They'd genuinely rather spend all that time farming 30 wbs than dump oils on a ram for a minute, wouldn't even have to fight another player.
I do think that the 1vxing and ball groups contribute to that. The pvp rewards aren't enough to force people to pvp, you have to want to. And when a group of new players join together and get x'd, think they'll stay? What about the 2nd time? 3rd? 10th? Remember when Summit1g played eso and got x'd and ranted about how 1 person was able to kill his group of like 4? Guess he isn't coming back. Now imagine how many people join, hate it and leave that don't make it known on the forums or in vids. And unfortunately we need those people. I want more pvp content and therefore I want more people to pvp so that we get more attention. And imho addressing ball groups and 1vxing would increase new player retention.11 -
NotTaylorSwift✭✭✭✭The most demoralizing part is that nothing I do helps. Negate, Streak, Daedric mines - nothing slows them down. Streak doesn't cc them, mines doesn't cc them, Negate is pointless because they're already been filled with a gazillion hots before I drop it. The MAIN problem is the immunity to cc, THAT is what makes them invincible.
I used to be able to do some damage to them before ZOS nerfed and removed sorc abilities. It's as if ZOS WANTS to kill off pvp by making ball groups as cancerous as possible.
Mindlessly streaking and spamming soft ccs (that dont work cos of snow treaders) only puts on cc cooldown. You literally help ballgroupers by constantly uncoordinatingly ccing them.2 -
Quackery✭✭✭✭✭NotTaylorSwift wrote: »The most demoralizing part is that nothing I do helps. Negate, Streak, Daedric mines - nothing slows them down. Streak doesn't cc them, mines doesn't cc them, Negate is pointless because they're already been filled with a gazillion hots before I drop it. The MAIN problem is the immunity to cc, THAT is what makes them invincible.
I used to be able to do some damage to them before ZOS nerfed and removed sorc abilities. It's as if ZOS WANTS to kill off pvp by making ball groups as cancerous as possible.
Mindlessly streaking and spamming soft ccs (that dont work cos of snow treaders) only puts on cc cooldown. You literally help ballgroupers by constantly uncoordinatingly ccing them.
Streak is VERY effective with this break-free bug we have right now. They won't be able to use skills for 1 second and will get pummeled during it. The problem is that they already HAVE cc immunity which is why nothing works against them.
I also use Flame Clench in the hopes of managing to flip one of the stragglers off of the keep but, guess what, IT DOESN'T WORK because of the cc immunity!! I've tried everything I possibly can but it's pointless.2 -
Berenhir✭✭✭✭✭
✭NotTaylorSwift wrote: »The most demoralizing part is that nothing I do helps. Negate, Streak, Daedric mines - nothing slows them down. Streak doesn't cc them, mines doesn't cc them, Negate is pointless because they're already been filled with a gazillion hots before I drop it. The MAIN problem is the immunity to cc, THAT is what makes them invincible.
I used to be able to do some damage to them before ZOS nerfed and removed sorc abilities. It's as if ZOS WANTS to kill off pvp by making ball groups as cancerous as possible.
Mindlessly streaking and spamming soft ccs (that dont work cos of snow treaders) only puts on cc cooldown. You literally help ballgroupers by constantly uncoordinatingly ccing them.
Streak is VERY effective with this break-free bug we have right now. They won't be able to use skills for 1 second and will get pummeled during it. The problem is that they already HAVE cc immunity which is why nothing works against them.
I also use Flame Clench in the hopes of managing to flip one of the stragglers off of the keep but, guess what, IT DOESN'T WORK because of the cc immunity!! I've tried everything I possibly can but it's pointless.
So you say they have CC immunity because you spam them with flame clench from 20m away or because you try to streak them when they go offensive (aka drink their immovable potion)?PC EU - Ebonheart Pact - Gray Host - Death Recap -#zergfarming -2 -
Quackery✭✭✭✭✭What you're saying is that every skill possible that is supposed to be of use against them is only causing cc immunity... Sounds like warped game mechanics to me but what do I know.1