The Actual State of ESO

INM

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Interesting.... according the Steam Charts (the only reliable measure we have of such things) the average number of players over the last 30 days is up 36% from last September.....

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130#6m

You should compare to the same period of time, considering that holiday and patch cadenza influces online noticably.



Each month is lower than it was a year before, besides March and April. (and as far as I can recall, the last March had severe server issues)

mocap

thorwyn wrote: »

three of my regular progress groups imploded

Sorry to hear that. Yet there are still many players in weekly vet leaderboards as well as ESO logs (everyday logs for vet trials, including PUG vet trials).

Elsonso

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I'm tired of "streamers" and "content creators" and "influencers", and people thinking that they mean something.

People can say otherwise, but they actually do mean something. I treat them like knowledgeable players who have an opinion, which is not much different than some of the people I read in here that are not streamers. Ahem. I might not agree with everything someone says, but they do mean something. Other people may give them more or less weight, but still, they mean something.

Like dungeon carries, influencers have existed in MMOs for a long time and are a normal part of the community.

Nefas has a platform that reaches more people than, for example, influencers here on the forum. He is also more entertaining than reading what someone has to say. Both are just voicing opinions in whatever media they have decided to use, and neither is really more right than the other.

Sadly, the studios tend to favor the streamers, and other visual media content creators, because they attract more followers. That also means something.

freespirit wrote: »

On the subject of the video and streamer's, never watched a video or stream except for ZoS's content reveal events.

Watch pointless internet stuff?? Or Play game?? Sorry I play the game!!

Honestly, before 2019, I paid no attention to streamers. What attracted me to the streamers was not watching them play, but the enthusiasm that they had while they were playing. Post Update 35 when ZOS ... did things ... it was pretty clear that this was declining, and that is the focus of the video that is posted above.

It does not help that the Twitch platform has not been helping to retain viewers and I have stepped back from watching live Twitch streams because of the platform. Stream quality is not improved, but they added full screen commercial interruptions that often hit at the worst times, and I usually tune out when the commercials hit. Additionally, some of the streamers I used to watch are streaming other games, which are not of interest to me, so we part ways amicably.

VaranisArano

Sylosi wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

It's okay if they don't pay us, because there will be others who will pay. But none of us will help you achieve that skin. R.I.P

The people who want to charge to carry someone through a trial or whatever aren't really the problem. The problem are the people who have no real interest in the content / game play, but just want to be carried for some skin or "achievement" in a video game, it's pathetic.

Ad long as ZOS puts cosmetic items like mounts and furnishings behind achievements, you'll get people who can't do the content but want the reward, and there'll be people willing to pay for carries. The overlap between the average vet Kyne's Aegis trial runner and the average Housing fan who wants a Nord fishing boat is probably not that big...

I dunno that it's pathetic, so much as there's a lot of people who don't think they should be expected to do content they don't like in order to get stuff they want. See the complaints from PvEers about every Whitestrake's Mayhem ever.

Lumsdenml

INM wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Interesting.... according the Steam Charts (the only reliable measure we have of such things) the average number of players over the last 30 days is up 36% from last September.....

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130#6m

You should compare to the same period of time, considering that holiday and patch cadenza influces online noticably.



Each month is lower than it was a year before, besides March and April. (and as far as I can recall, the last March had severe server issues)

I don't think it is accurate to compare to last year. Numbers were still affected by COVID population bubble, artificially inflating numbers. I believe more accurate would be the same time period 2019-2020

INM

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I don't think it is accurate to compare to last year. Numbers were still affected by COVID population bubble, artificially inflating numbers. I believe more accurate would be the same time period 2019-2020

It wouldn't be more accurate because the game received a significant boost of new players due to covid. Numbers would be entirely different, not everyone was a passenger.

CE_Nex

This was a video about content creating post Update 35 and the then sheer pessimism in endgame raiding scene during the block bug of Update 36 and how it negatively affected PvE. Where does he even talk about carries here? Where are you infering any of this from based on this video?

Lumsdenml

INM wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I don't think it is accurate to compare to last year. Numbers were still affected by COVID population bubble, artificially inflating numbers. I believe more accurate would be the same time period 2019-2020

It wouldn't be more accurate because the game received a significant boost of new players due to covid. Numbers would be entirely different, not everyone was a passenger.

That's my point. The boost of new players was artificial and wasn't going to stick around anyway.

isadoraisacat

Sylosi wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

It's okay if they don't pay us, because there will be others who will pay. But none of us will help you achieve that skin. R.I.P

The people who want to charge to carry someone through a trial or whatever aren't really the problem. The problem are the people who have no real interest in the content / game play, but just want to be carried for some skin or "achievement" in a video game, it's pathetic.

That’s ok but someone doing it themselves with a heavy attack build doing all the playing and mechanics themselves is “lazy” but it’s perfectly fine for people to pay for a carry.

That is some serious bizarre logic I will never understand.

It’s like saying a runner with metal legs is worse than a guy who was picked up and carried to the finish line.

Destai

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

This is about the state of the game from the perspective of ‘content creators’ or streamers, and the issue of declining viewership etc, not the *actual* state of the game, as experienced by the average player.

I play on PSEU, and we have had a resurgence of old players returning & a revitalisation of trial groups (gotta love HA oakensoul builds).

But of the many guilds I am in, very few people watch streamers. They may use the guides for builds & vet stuff, but rarely do they actually watch live streamers. It may be that it is because most of us are older aged players, and as such we have busy lives plus streaming is not a big part of the gaming - if we have the time, we would rather play ourselves than watch someone else play.

But this is just my opinion & observation. And to be honest streaming (I can’t call them content creators as its such a misnomer) is something I find baffling, rather pointless and not something against which the game should be measured.

The big streamers have a more direct influence on ZOS than us average folks. Nefas is definitely one of them. For example, he discouraged the U35 Q&A when Gina reached out to the stream team for advice. The community waited months for updates and dialogue on that topic, so it was a bit discouraging that not only did we not get the Q&A, but she also didn't engage us here. Instead, we got some letter, which itself saw no engagement on the community's questions. I'm not surprised, but it is a little frustrating to see one person's opinion seemingly outweigh the numerous requests from the larger community.

It's not all bad though. Him and other streamers provide the community with a lot of knowledge. They also give ZOS really good, technical feedback, that helps improve gameplay. I think that the recent patch and upcoming PTS show that they're listening, at least partially.

So, I do think streamers play a noticeable role in the state of them. I like some of his guides and commentary, but certainly don't hinge my gameplay off of it. FWIW, I tried joining his discord as a wallflower, didn't like the culture, and left.

Castagere

LarsS wrote: »

That video is 4 months old! Nefas is more positive presently.

He changed a little and only did so because people are starting to get sick of these so-called content creators and their elitist crap. These guys have done nothing but make gamers lazy. They listen to everything they say. I have never liked this guy and never will. I never played mmos to make characters that elites tell me to make or they will kick me from a team. And now these jerks are talking about being paid.

isadoraisacat

Castagere wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

That video is 4 months old! Nefas is more positive presently.

He changed a little and only did so because people are starting to get sick of these so-called content creators and their elitist crap. These guys have done nothing but make gamers lazy. They listen to everything they say. I have never liked this guy and never will. I never played mmos to make characters that elites tell me to make or they will kick me from a team. And now these jerks are talking about being paid.

He has a video called “toxic casuals” the video seems like gaslighting to me. I do not care for this guy.

I prefer people who display how to make a build and offer info without their own personal opinions that divide players.

INM

Lumsdenml wrote: »

That's my point. The boost of new players was artificial and wasn't going to stick around anyway.

My point isn't wrong either. I don't think the game is dying, but I should point out that taking 2 random points wouldn't give correct stats anyway and I just remembered that they're often running f2p events in April to take this online boost as granted.
We'll see soon how the trend goes forward.

Lumsdenml

INM wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

That's my point. The boost of new players was artificial and wasn't going to stick around anyway.

My point isn't wrong either. I don't think the game is dying, but I should point out that taking 2 random points wouldn't give correct stats anyway and I just remembered that they're often running f2p events in April to take this online boost as granted.
We'll see soon how the trend goes forward.

Yeah, true enough. I believe that we hit a dip with u35, but is now recovering. Time will tell.

Soarora

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Castagere wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

That video is 4 months old! Nefas is more positive presently.

He changed a little and only did so because people are starting to get sick of these so-called content creators and their elitist crap. These guys have done nothing but make gamers lazy. They listen to everything they say. I have never liked this guy and never will. I never played mmos to make characters that elites tell me to make or they will kick me from a team. And now these jerks are talking about being paid.

He has a video called “toxic casuals” the video seems like gaslighting to me. I do not care for this guy.

I prefer people who display how to make a build and offer info without their own personal opinions that divide players.

Toxic casuals do exist however I agree he isn’t very likeable. His discord server has a channel dedicated to making fun of people…
He also sells carries and content creation may be his job that should be kept in mind as well.

Aorys

I don't mind harvesting stuff in Craglorn to pay for carries. I'm just making my time more productive. But people can farm stuff if they enjoy waiting 20 minutes to enter a dungeon with random players and still not be sure if they gonna complete it or have the good will to share their spare pieces.

SilverBride

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

This is about the state of the game from the perspective of ‘content creators’ or streamers, and the issue of declining viewership etc, not the *actual* state of the game, as experienced by the average player...

...streaming (I can’t call them content creators as its such a misnomer) is something I find baffling, rather pointless and not something against which the game should be measured.

This and this.

BaalMelqartu

I tried to watch the vid, I really did. I did not make it a minute. Every time this fellow starts speaking, my brain automatically disengages and wants to enter sleep mode.

NO insult meant to him, he's fine... I assume? Could never watch his stuff long enough to find out. If there were an option to add him to a white noise app, he could help millions with sleep concerns.

Ragnarok0130

Eldartar wrote: »

Just

The Game boasts the mantra "Play the way you want" has done since day 1 but in actual fact it should (in the opinion of some) say "Play the way you want as long as it's with 2 bars and you have a complex rotation and wear meta gear"

And the game delivers very well on play how you want. However when it comes the end game group content it is no longer about YOU it is about the GROUP and its experience so baseline levels of class and role competency and performance are required so you are not wasting the time of 11 other people repeatedly wiping the group because you wanted to role play a vampire sword and board heavy armor wearing battlemage in the healer role in a trial.

Lets not be coy here, the number of HA sorcs in the dungeons and trials right now is through the roof - so much so that during Prime Time Craglorn looks like an aviary from the number of winged twilights flapping about around the shrine. HA builds are doing just fine and will after the patch. META has an actual definition, it’s an acronym for most effect tactic available. If your doing harder content it behooves you to adhere to or close to the meta, however at the end of the day it’s up to the raid lead to set requirements and standards for his group. If you don’t like their standards start your own trial group, prog, or guild since there’s nobody stopping you from mandating that only one bar or HA builds join.

ProudMary

The casual questing players in ESO are doing fine. The competitive PvP and end game PvE players are looking for something else to play, and as soon as that thing comes along they will be gone...if they've not already given up after U35.

Ragnarok0130

Soarora wrote: »

Not going to watch the video but to comment on “no open runs, only carries”. That did happen. I saw it in several big guilds, open run dungeons and trials died. But it’s not “heavy attack builds revitalize trial culture and without it everyone would have to pay for carries”. Endgamers got tired of how zos is treating us and left, leaving just people in cores (closed runs) and carry services. Things are still not as active as they used to be but people have come back for one reason or another. It’s got less to do with more new people in endgame and more to do with people just coming back who had left.

Yep U35 did exactly what Nefas predicted, groups turtled up and started poaching again.

To the OP if your a fan of Nefas you surely remember him requesting viewers not to repost his vids in the forum to stir controversy.

Varana

Should've looked at who created the thread before reading.

Ragnarok0130

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Castagere wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

That video is 4 months old! Nefas is more positive presently.

He changed a little and only did so because people are starting to get sick of these so-called content creators and their elitist crap. These guys have done nothing but make gamers lazy. They listen to everything they say. I have never liked this guy and never will. I never played mmos to make characters that elites tell me to make or they will kick me from a team. And now these jerks are talking about being paid.

He has a video called “toxic casuals” the video seems like gaslighting to me. I do not care for this guy.

I prefer people who display how to make a build and offer info without their own personal opinions that divide players.

Nefas created an entire program to bring in and train people who never raided before called “Project Vitality” and get them the baseline veteran and veteran hard mode clears in vAA HM, vSO HM, vHRC HM, and vMOL HM so they could join raid groups and guilds and begin raiding. He was doing what ZoS never bothered to do, train people and explain the game. He is not anti-casual and even states in other vids he’d rather accessibility come from designing trials to not be as punishing as say Rockgrove,

Regarding toxic casuals they are real, in fact there also on this very forum but that term only applies to a minute number of casual players. Even Brahwegotthis who is an overly nice individual in his content made an entire video a year ago talking about toxic casuals and their negative impact on the game

Elsonso

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Nefas created an entire program to bring in and train people who never raided before called “Project Vitality” and get them the baseline veteran and veteran hard mode clears in vAA HM, vSO HM, vHRC HM, and vMOL HM so they could join raid groups and guilds and begin raiding. He was doing what ZoS never bothered to do, train people and explain the game.

Adding to this... per his own statement, Update 35 ended these plans. His ... negativity ... at the time of the video about the future of the game is certainly understandable.

Ragnarok0130

mocap wrote: »

All that talk after last year update (LA nerfs etc) turned out to be nothing: vet players didn't vanished, there are still tons of players in Craglorn searching for trials. There are queues in Cyrodiil without any events (except non-cp campaign).

Sorry but all this analytics about "ESO die" is not worth a guar excrement.

Most of my raiding guild became Ghost towns and the raiding population reshuffled to new groups as the population shrank drastically with U35. We could fill DPS roles for trials with spares in guild or Crag in seconds in U34 but DPS became the difficult to fill role to this day after U35 for the groups I run with. The raiding community took its biggest hit since Morrowind with U35; it certainly was not a non-event like you portray.

NettleCarrier

This video is months old, so in terms of the game it's minorly irrelevant at the moment. He's also using his own video views to determine overall viewership? This is a bad metric... There are many reasons I don't watch his videos anymore, but I can't be so blunt here.

freespirit

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

All that talk after last year update (LA nerfs etc) turned out to be nothing: vet players didn't vanished, there are still tons of players in Craglorn searching for trials. There are queues in Cyrodiil without any events (except non-cp campaign).

Sorry but all this analytics about "ESO die" is not worth a guar excrement.

Most of my raiding guild became Ghost towns and the raiding population reshuffled to new groups as the population shrank drastically with U35. We could fill DPS roles for trials with spares in guild or Crag in seconds in U34 but DPS became the difficult to fill role to this day after U35 for the groups I run with. The raiding community took its biggest hit since Morrowind with U35; it certainly was not a non-event like you portray.

This shows how different experiences within a game can be.

Whilst I know some Trials guilds have definitely suffered I belong to two guilds which are run by basically the same team(I am one of the team). We used to run one normal trial "fun run" per week, we now run two. We used to just run a veteran trial on a Sunday, most weeks we now run two and we also now run a Veteran Trial beginners group once per week. Most of the time we have people on the bench as the sign up is full very quickly....

During events with double drops we run the related trial EVERY night some normal, some vet, depending on the trial involved.

Oh btw, these guilds are TRADE guilds, the appetite for trials is still there, it's just shifted slightly!

SilverBride

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Regarding toxic casuals they are real, in fact there also on this very forum but that term only applies to a minute number of casual players. Even Brahwegotthis who is an overly nice individual in his content made an entire video a year ago talking about toxic casuals and their negative impact on the game

How exactly are casuals toxic? I'd like to hear some specific examples.

I've never seen one myself but I've run into toxic elitists, one in my guild just yesterday.

I was running Vet Wayrest Sewers I for the pledge and we lost our heals. We were fine up to the final boss but were struggling with it. I asked in guild if anyone had a healer they would be willing to fill in with and one toxic individual started berating me that I didn't need help because it's "EZ" and it's only a base game dungeon and he always runs it with three. When others stood up for me and said our guild is about teamwork he said "**** teamwork". He is no longer in the guild.

How often do casuals act like that? I've never seen it.

CE_Nex

SilverBride wrote: »

How exactly are casuals toxic? I'd like to hear some specific examples.

I've never seen one myself but I've run into toxic elitists, one in my guild just yesterday.

I was running Vet Wayrest Sewers I for the pledge and we lost our heals. We were fine up to the final boss but were struggling with it. I asked in guild if anyone had a healer they would be willing to fill in with and one toxic individual started berating me that I didn't need help because it's "EZ" and it's only a base game dungeon and he always runs it with three. When others stood up for me and said our guild is about teamwork he said "**** teamwork". He is no longer in the guild.

How often do casuals act like that? I've never seen it.

I would like to preface this by saying that not every casual is toxic, just like not every endgamer is toxic. And I have met hundreds of players in my years in this game and the vast, vast majority of them are decent, honest folk who just want to have fun and enjoy a video game. That being said, like any community, there's going to be bad apples within the bunch. And it's not limited to any one demographic within a community.

In regards to how a casual can be toxic, well, let's take this thread as an example.

I couldn't agree more. But in my opinion, to put it simply:
What I understand in the first 16 minutes is: Bla bla bla "... we are tired because we don't have anything more to do..." , and "... you don't have the money to pay us for that really nice GH achievement...", "...Players don't pay us, and they are too inexperienced to play with us, so we just leave...."

First sentence, what are they agreeing with? It's not the video, because the rest of the post goes on to critisize the video. So, we can infer that they are agreeing with the title of the video. Third sentence, they equate the first 16 minutes of the video as 'Bla bla bla'. Immediately implying a dismissive and mocking tone. Now, do they have to agree with someone elses opinion on the internet? Of course not. It's normal to disagree. But the 'bla bla bla' strongly implies that this has less to do with disagreeing and more to do with discrediting and attacking the video, by making it seem like nonsensical blabber.

Now let's move on to the qoutations provided. In fairness, the OP states that this is their own interpretations. But take note how they phrase the words through their diction choice.

"... you don't have the money to pay us for that really nice GH achievement..." , "...Players don't pay us, and they are too inexperienced to play with us, so we just leave...."

Note the consistent use of "We" and "Us" in contrast with "You" and "Players". They set up a clear distinction with players and streamers. As if one is exclusive to the other. And also take note of the consistent use of monitary motivation from the streamers and non-experienced players, painting them in greedy and entitled connotations.

Now here's the really interesting thing. This video is about the shrinking space of Twitch Streaming and YouTube video making within the context of the Elder Scrolls Online and the prevalent sentiments of external media publishers on aformentioned websites, post Update 35 and the Upate 36 Block Bug. From four months ago at that too. And yet, somehow, the OP has managed to fabricate a link from all of this to carries and paid achievement runs. I would very much appreciate it if someone who watched the video could point out to me where Nefas equates his sentiments and conclusions to the lack of gold in-expereinced players have in regards to purchasing a GH achievement run.

This entire post is nothing more than an attempt to villify and attack Nefas and streamers as being greedy. Because if the argument is about carries and the exchange of gold for achievements and gear, then posting this video was not needed at all and it legitimately serves no purpose to the arguments being made by the OP.

Honestly, it's borderline libel. And I believe that is a non elitist way of being toxic.

kargen27

"In regards to how a casual can be toxic, well, let's take this thread as an example."

You are assuming casual here. Reading other threads this person has posted in it seems he is more frustrated that his particular style of play is being left out of elite groups. He mentions finishing hard mode trials but can't find a group to finish the ones he still has left.