Please remove either invisbility or change nightblades

Lumsdenml

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'm never understanding what the issue with using potions is. In terms of money, not sure what the difference is between refusing to spend money on potions vs refusing to spend money on improving gear vs refusing to spend currency on siege, etc. Like these are things that you need to invest in to be on equal footing with those that do.

I haven't had to spend money buying ingredients to make reveal potions myself in YEARS just from casually doing writs and harvesting mats.

Also (in the vanilla game at least) there's no indication on the stealther's side that they were revealed by a potion or that you have a potion reveal active. This might help you use them more effectively.

Agreed.... I hate detect pots....

Four_Fingers

Meanwhile sorcs can nuke players from across the map in relative safety.
Each class has it's strengths and weakness.

Vevvev

Jamie_Aubrey wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

someone doesnt know how to counter stealth

You can't, so many times I've used magelight when standing on top of NBs and they still vanish

Shadow Image

They're not where you are anymore as a nightblade will dodge roll into cloak, and then teleport to their shade while still cloaked. This combo allows Nightblades to get away, and those that don't use that combo get absolutely shut down by Magelight, Expert Hunter, Detection Potions, and Flare.

Bucky_13

It's a learn to play issue, you could start by blocking as a first step.

I might be biased since I play nightblade, but one of my favourite activities is also to hunt other nightblades sneaking around keeps. It's like a homicidal version of hide and seek and is a nice change of pace from zergs, ball groups and tower defenders...

Hapexamendios

Get rid of X that killed me!

Artim_X

Vamps get invisibility, invisibility pots give invisibility, and there are skills/sets/poisons/potions that reveal invisible players. 🫥

chessalavakia_ESO

I wouldn't hold out hope for it changing any time soon.

Invisibility can be fun to play as in multiplayer games but, it's rarely fun to play against or on a team with and that's hardly a new phenomenon yet games are still putting it in.

You'll hit the same thing with one shots and CC in multiplayer games as well. Sure, the person doing it can be having fun but, for the other parties involved it's frequently please make it stop.

My guess would be that we see games doing the same thing over and over even though it hits a negative reaction because many of the people that develop games don't enjoy their deaths at all. As a result, it doesn't really matter to them how they die because dying is universally bad.

If you look at the average player idea for gameplay changes/additions vs the average developer idea you'll frequently see that on average the developers are less retrained than the players when it comes to things that would produce annoyances.

NordSwordnBoard

Experience will teach a player how to defend vs nb, it's skills or pots you need to hunt them. Something about playing a nb taught me the modus operandi enough to only die to the best ones unless desynched.

wolfie1.0.

axi wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Remove invis is a bit much, however I think detect pot should be buffed

I really don't think that the best way to deal with a fact that certain ability have a tendency to overperform is to throw some semi counters into the game.

Strong abilities should have drawbacks built into them same as streak or dodge has or old mist had. People claim there is plenty of counters to cloak but the thing is each of these counters can be countered by nb without any additional investments just by using things naturally present in their kit. On the other hand to use cloak counters player needs to sacrifice something. Detect pot means player wont use more desired potion for 45 seconds meaning loss of alteast one usefull buff which may be crucial to the fight. Detection abilities means loss of skill slot for some other abilities more usefull in other scenarios plus cost vs duration ratio is not the best.

Some time ago there was atleast natural drawback for nb that was being more squishy in more open fights due to lack of strong burst healing but right now that only drawback is gone. Nb base survival without cloak is as strong or even stronger than on other classes, his dmg is one of the best currently so there is really no excuse to keep cloak the way it is.

Detection uses a skill slot, cloak also uses a skill slot.

Also, there are ways to keep a nb from going back into invisibility and to counter.

But ok, if we are going to remove invisibility then streak has to go because it has mobility. Vampire has to go as well. Templars healing ability needs to go.
Prox detonation needs to go as well because it kills clusters. All shields, ya those need to go too as they are too op for pvp. Oh and yeah forgot tank builds need to go as well as all healing abilities...because we all know there is no healing instantaneously IRL.

Lastly all weapons, armor and jewelry need to be banned as well as all skills, and cp.

Just turn pvp into a fist fight where everyone is equal

Amottica

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

someone doesnt know how to counter stealth

This.

There are very strong and effective counters to stealth. Many to choose from. Something many groups and solo players have figured out how to counter very well.

Punitio

Imagine crying about Nightblades when there's DK's that can be played by a braind3ad dog and still kill everybody. DK has big damage, big regen, and super tanky, literally no flaws. NB's can be easily countered with detection potions.

Turtle_Bot

Remove? No.

Nerf? Yes.

Give invisibility a ramping cost just like they did with streak and mist form so that NBs learn to not crutch on it or just spam it endlessly.

Or

make magelight/hunter/flare have much larger AoE on the reveals and keep them revealed for much longer as well (I have yet to test those with the new servers, but with the old servers, those abilities were useless due to small radius and being buggy in general due to the horrendous positional desyncs that allowed NBs to instantly re-cloak while under its effect).


The main issue with NB currently is actually how strong its burst heal is. No class that can just disappear and completely reset the fight with on demand LoS should also have access to one of the strongest burst heals in the game alongside some of the best HoTs in the game, that's completely over the top.

Reduce the healing of offering or give it a cast time, like they did with sorcs heals (the other mobile class that can easily reset the fight) alongside 1 of the other fixes for invis above and NB will be in a good spot.

fred4

With all this hybridisation and homogenisation, there is precious little left to make classes unique. Thus it's a "no" from me on nerfing Cloak. As everyone has already said, the skill has counters. Everything does. Rock, paper, scissors is part of the experience. Learn to go after nightblades or, if that's not your cup of tea, learn how defend or escape or play in a group. For example a tanky brawler spec going into defensive mode can't really be killed by a single nightblade. If your health is, say, 35K, you have decent block sustain, and you behave passively, nightblades will try, but most run off again when they do no damage to you.

Cazador

You could just use one of the three abilities that detect hidden enemies, or the potion, or use dots that stick to a target. There are plenty of counters.

fred4

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Remove? No.

Nerf? Yes.

Give invisibility a ramping cost just like they did with streak and mist form so that NBs learn to not crutch on it or just spam it endlessly.

Or

make magelight/hunter/flare have much larger AoE on the reveals and keep them revealed for much longer as well (I have yet to test those with the new servers, but with the old servers, those abilities were useless due to small radius and being buggy in general due to the horrendous positional desyncs that allowed NBs to instantly re-cloak while under its effect).


The main issue with NB currently is actually how strong its burst heal is. No class that can just disappear and completely reset the fight with on demand LoS should also have access to one of the strongest burst heals in the game alongside some of the best HoTs in the game, that's completely over the top.

Reduce the healing of offering or give it a cast time, like they did with sorcs heals (the other mobile class that can easily reset the fight) alongside 1 of the other fixes for invis above and NB will be in a good spot.

Your class - Streak - is still one of the best counters to perma-cloaking nightblades, so I don't get it. Magelight / Hunter were buffed and made more consistent relatively recently. I agree that, if you're alone, detection potions + Streak are probably the better bet. As soon as you're in a duo, though, Magelight / Hunter used systematically is devastating against nightblades. I play a perma-cloaking nightblade, as you know. I also play in IC more than in Cyro, e.g. without lag. From my POV there is a marked difference between people who learn and choose to hunt nightblades and those who don't bother. Certainly on a sorc you have the mobility to do it.

Magelight / Hunter are not searching skills. You must cast them while the nightblade is near or in your face. If you keep that up and you synchronise your movement with the nightblade, it's very difficult for the nightblade to escape. Yes, there is Shadow Image, but you were talking about Cloak. With the amount of speed in the game, I feel Shadow Image has lost much of it's relevance these days. It used to be a staple for every other nightblade. These days I don't think it is.

In regards to the burst heal, yes it's strong. Remember how for years magblade had nothing like it? This was a major weakness. Maybe it could be a touch weaker, I'm not sure. It DOES uncloak you. There is still the age old problem that only Rally heals you in Cloak, and these days DOTs are no longer suppressed and will melt you. Having to gamble on cloaking away without healing in the next GCD (because that would uncloak you) when someone is, in fact, detecting you is quite a weakness of healing with Offering.

ArchMikem

This

Bucky_13 wrote: »

It's a learn to play issue, you could start by blocking as a first step.

I might be biased since I play nightblade, but one of my favourite activities is also to hunt other nightblades sneaking around keeps. It's like a homicidal version of hide and seek and is a nice change of pace from zergs, ball groups and tower defenders...

Nightblades really are the best Anti-Nightblade class. It used to be so much better when Piercing Mark's reveal was longer.

Blood_again

Heals_With_Orbs wrote: »

This is PVP isn't it? or is it PVI? - Player vs Invisible? We aren't playing aliens vs predator are we?

Get some invis potions, find some pvpers in cyro and try to kill them from invis. Recording video would be a plus.

Then look how they massacred you, learn well how they did it and try to do the same.

Be carefull while teabagging your first nightblade killed. Don't get banned. Have a good hunt.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Nightblades are not the only ones who can stealth, Vampires can also stealth and they can be Dragonknights.

Turtle_Bot

fred4 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Remove? No.

Nerf? Yes.

Give invisibility a ramping cost just like they did with streak and mist form so that NBs learn to not crutch on it or just spam it endlessly.

Or

make magelight/hunter/flare have much larger AoE on the reveals and keep them revealed for much longer as well (I have yet to test those with the new servers, but with the old servers, those abilities were useless due to small radius and being buggy in general due to the horrendous positional desyncs that allowed NBs to instantly re-cloak while under its effect).


The main issue with NB currently is actually how strong its burst heal is. No class that can just disappear and completely reset the fight with on demand LoS should also have access to one of the strongest burst heals in the game alongside some of the best HoTs in the game, that's completely over the top.

Reduce the healing of offering or give it a cast time, like they did with sorcs heals (the other mobile class that can easily reset the fight) alongside 1 of the other fixes for invis above and NB will be in a good spot.

Your class - Streak - is still one of the best counters to perma-cloaking nightblades, so I don't get it. Magelight / Hunter were buffed and made more consistent relatively recently. I agree that, if you're alone, detection potions + Streak are probably the better bet. As soon as you're in a duo, though, Magelight / Hunter used systematically is devastating against nightblades. I play a perma-cloaking nightblade, as you know. I also play in IC more than in Cyro, e.g. without lag. From my POV there is a marked difference between people who learn and choose to hunt nightblades and those who don't bother. Certainly on a sorc you have the mobility to do it.

Magelight / Hunter are not searching skills. You must cast them while the nightblade is near or in your face. If you keep that up and you synchronise your movement with the nightblade, it's very difficult for the nightblade to escape. Yes, there is Shadow Image, but you were talking about Cloak. With the amount of speed in the game, I feel Shadow Image has lost much of it's relevance these days. It used to be a staple for every other nightblade. These days I don't think it is.

In regards to the burst heal, yes it's strong. Remember how for years magblade had nothing like it? This was a major weakness. Maybe it could be a touch weaker, I'm not sure. It DOES uncloak you. There is still the age old problem that only Rally heals you in Cloak, and these days DOTs are no longer suppressed and will melt you. Having to gamble on cloaking away without healing in the next GCD (because that would uncloak you) when someone is, in fact, detecting you is quite a weakness of healing with Offering.

I mostly leave NBs alone unless they really try-hard me, in which case I will go after them too.

I did say I have yet to test those skills out under the new server conditions, so if they are indeed more reliable now then that will help a lot for OPs issues. The main issue as I stated with those skills was that due to positional desyncs because of poor server performance, they were essentially non-functional because you cast them ontop of the NB, but the NB is actually 20m away according to the servers and therefore isn't revealed or just simply cloaks back up immediately.

Shadow image is another issue altogether imo. It's still very strong but most players playing the class don't know how to properly use it (I've only seen a couple that can use it effectively). What makes shadow image so strong is the verticality it allows for, gap closers had their ranges nerfed or flat out made to not work vertically due to how strong that direction of movement is. Shadow image is only really bad in open field combat that has no LoS, which is where streak is better (as is the new mist form), in close quarters with LoS and multi-levelled combat, shadow image is so much stronger.

Offering doesn't have to be massively reduced down to dark deals pitiful level of healing, but a slight nerf to its heal or a short (0.3-0.5s) cast time bring it into line with what such a mobile class should have access to for a burst heal would go along way to balancing the combined mobility + healing capabilities of NB.

Valve

ArchMikem wrote: »

This

Bucky_13 wrote: »

It's a learn to play issue, you could start by blocking as a first step.

I might be biased since I play nightblade, but one of my favourite activities is also to hunt other nightblades sneaking around keeps. It's like a homicidal version of hide and seek and is a nice change of pace from zergs, ball groups and tower defenders...

Nightblades really are the best Anti-Nightblade class. It used to be so much better when Piercing Mark's reveal was longer.

There was nothing fun about getting piercing marked by an enemy NB in a zerg when you're solo and the only counterplay was to purge it to try get back into stealth.

Caribou77

3 Broken Skills are working heavily to NBs advantage:

1. Revealing Flare does NOT prevent NBs from immediately recloaking, as the skill tooltip states
2. Inner Light does NOt prevent NB from immediately recloaking, as the skill tooltip states
3. Incapaciting Strike, after Update 37, stuns you for a solid 5 or more seconds, in which you stand there swaying in a daze, unable to break free regardless of having a nearly full stamina bar

Add these 3 important, broken skills to NB having the highest speed, highest damage, and 2nd best healing, and it is blatantly apparent why there is a growing tide of NBs in BGs and Cyro.

A decently skilled player on an NB is overpowered against anyone but a decently skilled player on DK, consequently, they avoid fighting DKs.

So yeah, you can spend 50% of your time popping detect potions and chasing down NBs, if you’re tired of the gankfest. Or you can play a tanky DK and just out heal and out sustain them.

Neither option appeals.

At a minimum: Inner Light & Revealing Flare need to be fixed to do what the tooltips state: prevent revealed opponents from returning to stealth or invisibility for 5 seconds. With these skills not functioning properly, NBs in the know can literally spam cloak to avoid 90% of incoming damage.

fred4

Caribou77 wrote: »

3 Broken Skills are working heavily to NBs advantage:
1. Revealing Flare does NOT prevent NBs from immediately recloaking, as the skill tooltip states
2. Inner Light does NOt prevent NB from immediately recloaking, as the skill tooltip states
3. Incapaciting Strike, after Update 37, stuns you for a solid 5 or more seconds, in which you stand there swaying in a daze, unable to break free regardless of having a nearly full stamina bar

That is certainly not my experience. You must be talking about the effects of lag.

katanagirl1

Nightblade cloak skill is about 2 seconds long. Is this what you are talking about, or a nightblade using invisibility potions?

I have seen all classes in PvP use invisibility potions.

Nyseto

There’s only one solution to your problem: become a nightblade.

Luth7

This crafting potion could help with the problem:

langewapper

i like NB's they are so easy to kill

Bucky_13

ArchMikem wrote: »

This

Bucky_13 wrote: »

It's a learn to play issue, you could start by blocking as a first step.

I might be biased since I play nightblade, but one of my favourite activities is also to hunt other nightblades sneaking around keeps. It's like a homicidal version of hide and seek and is a nice change of pace from zergs, ball groups and tower defenders...

Nightblades really are the best Anti-Nightblade class. It used to be so much better when Piercing Mark's reveal was longer.

Agreed, with sorc being 2nd due to movement speed and streak. Wardens can also be good with Arctic Blast and speed. Movement speed just good in PvP, and then there's bombard for any stam class.

robpr

Vevvev wrote: »

Shadow Image

They're not where you are anymore as a nightblade will dodge roll into cloak, and then teleport to their shade while still cloaked. This combo allows Nightblades to get away, and those that don't use that combo get absolutely shut down by Magelight, Expert Hunter, Detection Potions, and Flare.

It is not Shadow Image, you can clearly see them "crouch" into cloak animation, casting magelight will reveal them again. Reveal skills other than Radiant Magelight often do not apply 3s stealth prevention.

Pots of course works best due to sheer range.

N3CR01

[snip]

Exactly. All this thread is is 'I don't like this thing so it should be removed'
[snip]

[edited quote and baiting]

axi

Luth7 wrote: »

This crafting potion could help with the problem:

Oh yeah that 15 seconds is so hard to survive on a class with one of the best evasivness, mobility and burst healing.