Harrowstorms need to Scale to the Number of Players

spartaxoxo

fleetingyouth_ESO wrote: »

Scailing reverses the difficulty of the current system instead of it being challenging for those who enjoy doing it solo or in small groups it removes that challenge entirely. While larger groups who typically could finish storms relatively easily will not see it become more difficult it will still be just as easy if not easier. Therefore the only people who really benefit from scaling are those who want easier content with fewer players.

Scaling makes it harder for larger groups, objectively. It would not be easier to have more mini bosses than they had to fight before.

The entire point of scaling is to adjust the content in such a way as the difficult level remains at some consistent place. So a small group would have a proportional challenge to a moderate size group.

Without scaling, the challenge becomes easier the more people join. And harder the less.

With scaling, you can ensure it's always the same level of challenge without extreme numbers.

E.g.

Let's use an imaginary example...

No scale boss with 100k hp means that 1 player is response for 100k. 2 responsible for 50k. 4 responsible for 25k etc. Just getting more people continuously makes it easier and easier. At 100 people, each would only need to do 1k damage. They could cough on it and it would die.

Let's say meant for it to be duoed.

Scaled means 1 person fighting fights 50k boss, now responsible for 50k.

2 people fight a 100k boss. No change, each responsible for 50k.

4 fight a 200k HP boss, now each are response for 50k.

100 fight a 5 million HP boss, each are responsible for 50k.

Scaling for overland makes sense because there's always going to be a varying amount of people attempting any piece of content. It shouldn't be designed like a set number of people are supposed to be attempting it like a trial or group. Instead the content should change to meet whatever the needs of the zone are at the time.

That it doesn't scale leads to a bad experience at both ends of the spectrum of player population. Hardly anyone there? Too bad for most players, even if they know mechs. Tons of people around? Good luck even making it to the wayshrine.

That's not great.

AvalonRanger

Rkindaleft wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Harrowstorms need to Scale to the Number of Players Bookmark

SilverBride wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Once I did it with only 1 decent DPS by my tanking. Only 2 of us finished it within 10min.

That is not the way it is for most players. I have never seen one done that fast with less than a full group and I've done plenty of them on all my characters.

The fact is that these are very difficult for most players and there are few players participating in them any more. Geysers were scaled to the number of players for the same reasons these should be, too, and Geysers aren't nearly as difficult as Harrowstorms.

But, I tested it in today again. My DPS is Just CP 80 and 300 degree. But we finished it within 15 min.
Do you really think those players are too much strong?

The most of failure reason of Harrowstorms are...

1) Fake tank. Like the most of bad random normal run team.

2) Fake Healer.

3) Brain-dead DPS ignore to kill ghost, or deal damage against the totem.
And ignore situation control of tank player, and keep attacking wrong target.

4) Too much unbalanced glass build, or too much low damage DPS.

If you have decent 4 men dungeon combat technique, you can finish it in short time.

But again, taking 15 minutes to beat 1 storm is not fun, at least for most players. Why would I want to do something that takes 15 minutes for a reward that I can get in 90 seconds solo from a base game dolmen? This is the key problem with harrowstorms. Most players don’t want to do something hard/time consuming just for the sake of doing something hard/time consuming. There is no incentive to run the content unless you like the storms themselves, which the way they are now the amount of players who do is few and far between.

Very good point.

I also agree this. The most of heavy combat of this game reward is extremely terrible.
Dragon is good example for this. It spends boring huge time consuming, but reward is just jewelry
and "useless junk". At least, I need one gold material each of those advanced Dolman mission.

I totally disagree make the Harrowstorm more easy, because it's already easy enough for the "decent players".
(When I was CP300, I could do enough tanking at there.)
However, it's meaningless mission for the most of players including me. Because it's totally time wasting.
There is no reason to spend time for such a "JUNK hunting".

AvalonRanger

SilverBride wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

If you have decent 4 men dungeon combat technique, you can finish it in short time.

That is just another IF that is not the most encountered reality.

I kept yelling for the others to stay on the same pike but one player kept moving to a different one then yet another. This is what happens more often than not. They eventually did listen but it was still a long tedious struggle.

I know some players find them easy and some players solo them and etc., but that doesn't change the reality that most players struggle with these. And more importantly there just aren't enough players in the zone now, and players that are experienced with Harrowstorms, and it's a situation that could be made more reasonable by scaling to the number of players.

Part of agree. I also encounter terrible team 1 per 8 rate in random normal run as tank role. (/._.\)

And in 1 per 5 as DPS, I also encounter disgusting fake tank who try to kill every team member.
(Instant leaving, when I found those cheater in the dungeon)

But, it needs more time consuming to search good people in guild member rather than random PUG.
Especially it annoys DPS main players.

fleetingyouth_ESO

I understand how scaling SHOULD work but nothing in this game that scales works that way. Because of the power creep and system of leveling we have nothing in this game is harder the more people are added.

If the entire game was to scale to harder content the more players involved I would support that. However, the current system only offers hard content the fewer players there are. Which I agree does not work for some players. But the content that does currently scale, scales in a reverse way. It is not harder with more players and does get easier with fewer.

Maybe that is not what you envision but that is exactly what the devs have shown would be the result result from scaling.

I stand by Geysers being a terrible example of what world events should be like, and fully support finding ways to incentivize players to do older content.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Scaling makes it harder for larger groups, objectively. It would not be easier to have more mini bosses than they had to fight before.

The entire point of scaling is to adjust the content in such a way as the difficult level remains at some consistent place. So a small group would have a proportional challenge to a moderate size group.

Without scaling, the challenge becomes easier the more people join. And harder the less.

With scaling, you can ensure it's always the same level of challenge without extreme numbers.

Exactly!

shadyjane62

I only do these during the event. They are too hard to get a group for and you need a large group.

f047ys3v3n

Agree with the OP. It takes 10+ min to solo one of these things. Not doing it again. Not even remotely worth the effort for a regular raider and almost certainly downright off the table for almost all players. Right now this is dead content unless there is an event forcing a bunch of folks there.

Liguar

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Scaling for overland makes sense because there's always going to be a varying amount of people attempting any piece of content. It shouldn't be designed like a set number of people are supposed to be attempting it like a trial or group. Instead the content should change to meet whatever the needs of the zone are at the time.

That it doesn't scale leads to a bad experience at both ends of the spectrum of player population. Hardly anyone there? Too bad for most players, even if they know mechs. Tons of people around? Good luck even making it to the wayshrine.

That's not great.

Thanks so much for sharing your video Sparta, that was in intense 10 minutes and shows the effort needed compared to other zone events. Impressive!

I agree with scaling, not necessarily scaling down as hard as dolmens. I think it's okay to say that if there are 3 pikes, it should be fairly straightforward for 3 players to do it if they know how (and then people can still solo with greater difficulty, if they wish).

Having tried to do a few of them over the weekend (not as many as I'd like due to not having much game time) there were quite a few people but also a lot of champs and all a bit of mess. They were still going down reasonably quickly but it was chaotic. I feel like the distance from the wayshrines is compounding the issue. Just like in N.E. where only one of the dragons is close to a wayshrine, the others are a pain in the bum to get to which is probably why S.E. dragons seem to have much more reliable attendance.

Edit: Just want to add that your video also inspired me for the simple costume style I wanted for my vamp. It's perfect!

spartaxoxo

Liguar wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Scaling for overland makes sense because there's always going to be a varying amount of people attempting any piece of content. It shouldn't be designed like a set number of people are supposed to be attempting it like a trial or group. Instead the content should change to meet whatever the needs of the zone are at the time.

That it doesn't scale leads to a bad experience at both ends of the spectrum of player population. Hardly anyone there? Too bad for most players, even if they know mechs. Tons of people around? Good luck even making it to the wayshrine.

That's not great.

Thanks so much for sharing your video Sparta, that was in intense 10 minutes and shows the effort needed compared to other zone events. Impressive!

I agree with scaling, not necessarily scaling down as hard as dolmens. I think it's okay to say that if there are 3 pikes, it should be fairly straightforward for 3 players to do it if they know how (and then people can still solo with greater difficulty, if they wish).

Having tried to do a few of them over the weekend (not as many as I'd like due to not having much game time) there were quite a few people but also a lot of champs and all a bit of mess. They were still going down reasonably quickly but it was chaotic. I feel like the distance from the wayshrines is compounding the issue. Just like in N.E. where only one of the dragons is close to a wayshrine, the others are a pain in the bum to get to which is probably why S.E. dragons seem to have much more reliable attendance.

Edit: Just want to add that your video also inspired me for the simple costume style I wanted for my vamp. It's perfect!

I'm glad you found it helpful in more ways than one! 🙂 Yeah, the wayshrines are definitely part of the problem. The ones in the Reach are much more active than the ones in Western Skyrim. The worst ones are the ones in Greymoor, those basically never get done.

SilverBride

I checked to see if anyone was doing Harrowstorms today because I know it's going to be a long process to clear all of them, and not one person was engaging these.

So I went down to Blackreach: Greymoor Caverns and no one was doing these either, but then they rarely are. You can run around down there for hours and never run into another player.

This is why something needs to be done. This content is not doable for most players without a decent group and there just aren't enough players doing them any more.

fleetingyouth_ESO

What sever are you on SilverBride?

I did harrow-storms for about 2 hours last night and there was a good group between 15-10 the entire time. I even went down into caverns and there was a smaller group doing them there.

This was on PCNA and I did about 40+ storms. Overall I got a couple of high value Vampiric furnishing plans, a couple of motifs, and a bunch of vile coagulants. Thats not a lot for grinding that many storms and the rewards otherwise are just junk, if you are only able to do 1 or 2 storms whether because of time, population, or skill then there is just no reason to do them.

SilverBride

I'm on PCNA and this was around 1 pm Pacific time today. I haven't seen groups like you describe since the zone was current, or during events that call for them.

Androrix

Blackreach is more sparse. 'Tis true. But Harrowstorms are a quest in W.Skyrim, and honestly I am not just trying to be a contrarian here, but I can almost always get someone. There would be fewer people during the day working hours, of course. But wouldn't you expect that?

SilverBride

It was never an issue before the zone became older.

And not everyone works Monday through Friday 9 to 5. Many people work weekends and have some weekdays off, and evening and night shifts.

Rkindaleft

If they don't want to alter the difficulty of the storms themselves then they should at least make them more futureproof, be it drop more antiquity leads for mythics and furnishings, as far as I know only a single piece from a single mythic (Shapeshifter's Chain) out of the 23 mythic pieces we have now comes as a drop for the storms. Or, you know, just buff the rewards in general.

In a couple of years, outside of events finding consistent groups for these will be near impossible. We already see that now, with 90% more players electing to do something like Dragons for Rheum or even dolmens for the same level of reward. There is no excuse for the harrowstorm rewards to be SO bad when you need multiple players to make them tolerable.

SilverBride

Rkindaleft wrote: »

In a couple of years, outside of events finding consistent groups for these will be near impossible. We already see that now, with 90% more players electing to do something like Dragons for Rheum or even dolmens for the same level of reward. There is no excuse for the harrowstorm rewards to be SO bad when you need multiple players to make them tolerable.

We don't need to wait a couple of years... it's like this now.

Necrotech_Master

Rkindaleft wrote: »

If they don't want to alter the difficulty of the storms themselves then they should at least make them more futureproof, be it drop more antiquity leads for mythics and furnishings, as far as I know only a single piece from a single mythic (Shapeshifter's Chain) out of the 23 mythic pieces we have now comes as a drop for the storms. Or, you know, just buff the rewards in general.

In a couple of years, outside of events finding consistent groups for these will be near impossible. We already see that now, with 90% more players electing to do something like Dragons for Rheum or even dolmens for the same level of reward. There is no excuse for the harrowstorm rewards to be SO bad when you need multiple players to make them tolerable.

the harrows in the reach drop the antiquity lead for the vampiric stained glass window furnishing

but nowadays you only need to do 3 of those before you could just buy more instead of farming the harrows

fleetingyouth_ESO

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm on PCNA and this was around 1 pm Pacific time today. I haven't seen groups like you describe since the zone was current, or during events that call for them.

It may not be helpful but this was about 9-10 pm eastern and I would say in the evening on the east coast I never have an issue finding people to do storms in zone. Occasionally I have to announce in chat but usually, people will show up while I'm doing them.

Jusey1

Harrowstorms has always been the absolutely worst Overland content they have created in this content... I just avoid them entirely now since their completion is now shared.

SilverBride

I still like to clear them on all my characters individually.

Rkindaleft

If they're not going to touch the storms themselves balancing wise (and there's definitely issues there, no scaling, OP shrikes, tough to do with small groups) they could give people a reason to run them at all.

Right now in 90% of the storms you do, you barely get enough in overland set items that aren't worth anything and some vendor junk to even repair your gear after a harrowstorm, why would I do them if I don't get anything from them? You essentially play a lottery to get a purple furnishing piece that is -very rare- to make them worthwhile to do outside of enjoyment. Vile coagulants aren't worth much either because they don't make great potions, and they're not even guaranteed to drop from every storm.

There are a number of reasons that 99% of players totally ignore these outside of events.

Androrix

Am I really the only one who enjoys Harrowstorms? I am beginning to get a complex reading this thread, so I think instead I will think of it as more of a Robert Frost road less traveled sort of thing

SilverBride

I don't dislike Harrowstorms. That's what is so frustrating about it. It's hard to enjoy the content if we can't find a decent group to run them with.

There are just not enough players doing them now and something needs to be done.

rpa

Harrowstorms would be fine if W.Skyrim and Blackreach were not so inconvenient and rewards so meagre. Not everything needs to be casually soloable. People still do harrowstorms at The Reach, not all the time but often enough.(pceu)

FeedbackOnly

They are fine. People should gather people if they want to do them

Or

We need a group finder for them

SilverBride

It's not easy to gather people when there aren't very many in the zone to gather from. And most of those just don't want to be bothered with them.

Androrix

SilverBride wrote: »

It's not easy to gather people when there aren't very many in the zone to gather from. And most of those just don't want to be bothered with them.

So I have a lot of luck getting help, but I think it is in the asking. "Northern Watch is up" or "need more at Northern Watch" just aren't inviting enough. I usually go with something more like: "Oh no! There is a Harrowstorm at Northern Watch. All of Skyrim is in danger--if only there were another hero to help!" or "Can someone please help me and my bear at Northern Watch--it looks pretty scary!"

I have found that there are loads of nice people who play the game and are willing to help.

SilverBride

That may work for some but it's not how I talk. I do ask politely though, saying things like "Need help at this Harrowstorm please." If no one will comes I may add "I'm working on clearing the Harrowstorms in the zone and this is one of the last ones I need. Any help would be appreciated." Sometimes players come, sometimes they don't, but it's never a very big group.

The truth is there just isn't much interest any more and it makes it hard for those who want to play this content.

Androrix

SilverBride wrote: »

That may work for some but it's not how I talk. I do ask politely though, saying things like "Need help at this Harrowstorm please." If no one will comes I may add "I'm working on clearing the Harrowstorms in the zone and this is one of the last ones I need. Any help would be appreciated." Sometimes players come, sometimes they don't, but it's never a very big group.

The truth is there just isn't much interest any more and it makes it hard for those who want to play this content.

That's a bigger problem than just Harrowstorms. Vvardenfell, for example, is very quiet. The crafting area is active but, as beautiful as it is, the zone is not, and it is not easy for people to get help for bosses.

Devs do need to do something to encourage interest in existing zones like VVardenfell, beyond a short term event fix. Looking through your posts that seems to be the root of the problem you identify. But I honestly don't think the best answer is to dumb down the WBs in those zones.

Anyway, I hope it works out for you either way.

SilverBride

World Bosses aren't as big a problem because they don't keep spawning more minibosses the longer the Boss is up like Harrowstorms do.