Harrowstorms need to Scale to the Number of Players

Vevvev

As spartaxoxo has said they can be soloed and more scale to the amount of negligence on the part of the players.

Don't kill the ghosts? Well, you're going to have a REALLY tough time. It is possible to do a Harrowstorm with 2-3 players quite comfortably if they make a priority to kill the ghosts around their pikes instead of tunnel vision on the pikes alone.

If you tunnel vision in a Harrowstorm event, and don't prioritize the ghosts, you deserve every single boss that spawns and causes problems.

SilverBride

Vevvev wrote: »

As spartaxoxo has said they can be soloed and more scale to the amount of negligence on the part of the players.

I know SOME players can solo them, but it is not a fair comparison between what SOME players can do and what MOST can't.

It is the reality that Harrowstorms are difficult, there are less players in Western Skyrim now doing them, and many of those who are there are not experienced or geared and skilled like those few who solo them are.

I am looking at the reality of what is going on with these, and most of the time it's not an optimal group makeup with skilled and geared players.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

If the players do great DPS and can take down the Pikes fast. Otherwise the Champions keep spawning because the Pikes are staying up too long.

The champions don't spawn based off pike health. They spawn based off the number of ghosts. Back when they moved slower, I used to be able to slow them even further and not get champions at all even though I was by myself. The more ghosts get sacrificed to the pike, the more champions spawn.

I am just saying this as advice to the person who asked the best way to do things if they are in a duo. A lot of players don't realize that the ghosts are what spawns the champions. They think it's based on how fast the pikes go down. I am very certain it is the ghosts because I got my achievement for not having a champion spawn back when the ghosts moved slower. I focused on that and let other people handle the pikes and got the achievement for no champions spawning.

This is also why I suggested the ghosts moving slower based on the number of people around as the best solution for implementing your suggestion. If only a couple were there, you wouldn't get champions at all if ghosts were focused on and very few of them if they are not because the ghosts were moving so slow.

SilverBride

The more Pikes that are up the more Ghosts that are spawning, which is why most successful groups I have been in all focused on the same Pike and took them down as fast as possible.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

The more Pikes that are up the more Ghosts that are spawning, which is why most successful groups I have been all focus on the same Pike and take them down as fast as possible.

I believe that's been your experience because the majority of players don't know about the ghosts. Even when they used to glitch and stop summoning after a single stun until they despawned, making it literally impossible for them to summon a champion, I saw most people ignore the ghosts. If the player you're helping with a pike doesn't know this information, even if you do, you're better off just helping them kill the pike. But in a preformed duo, they can relay that information to each other and make sure they are both ready for it.

If the group is actually dealing with the ghosts, it's better to split up so that less ghosts reach the pike.

If the group is largely ignoring the ghosts and aren't using cc and aoes on them, they are better off focusing on the same pike so less ghosts spawn out of that pike.

Which is the better choice will depend on the player knowledge about the ghosts and their ability to succeed at taking ghost and pikes down at the same time.

AOE CC like caltrops or time stop work wonders at ensuring the ghosts die before they reach the pike, but many players either don't have aoe cc or don't know to use it on the ghosts. Such players are better off focusing down 1 pike.

umagon

Scaling would be good but what helps the most for harrowstorms currently is someone using plague break. If there is at least one person using that set the horrowstorm can be completed by two people in about 7mins. You have to turn the ghosts and the other npcs into bombs, it wipes the pikes quickly.

SilverBride

umagon wrote: »

Scaling would be good but what helps the most for harrowstorms currently is someone using plague break. If there is at least one person using that set the horrowstorm can be completed by two people in about 7mins. You have to turn the ghosts and the other npcs into bombs, it wipes the pikes quickly.

What are the odds of that happening in a random group forming in Western Skyrim?

LalMirchi

I agree with scaling and would like to see variations of scaling.

The present idea, scaling Harrowstorms is excellent.

Hopefully all World Events will scale to be more difficult as the number of players increase.

Scaling upp and down would be great for the long suffering World/Group Bosses and the magnificent Dragons, why are these epic monsters dying in seconds when swarmed by puny players?

And, most hopefully, that these would be optional choices for the player.

spartaxoxo

LalMirchi wrote: »

I agree with scaling and would like to see variations of scaling.

The present idea, scaling Harrowstorms is excellent.

Hopefully all World Events will scale to be more difficult as the number of players increase.

Scaling upp and down would be great for the long suffering World/Group Bosses and the magnificent Dragons, why are these epic monsters dying in seconds when swarmed by puny players?

And, most hopefully, that these would be optional choices for the player.

This is a really good point. I also want to see scaling not just because if it scaled then more people would be able to solo the Harrowstorms, since the majority can't do that, but also because these things die too easily during events. They die within seconds. Often you can't even make it to the next one unless the wayshrines are super close. It makes the events really unpleasant. If these things scaled too address such large amounts of players, they'd last a little longer during events. Which would help to make the wayshrine situation a lot less frustrating.

MasterSpatula

I mean, they kinda do.

Just in the precise, absolute opposite direction of how it should scale. The fewer people, the more enemies spawn, and particularly more of the minibosses firing off one-shots with inadequate, incorrect, of nonexistent telegraphs.

Liguar

Thank you both, SilverBride and Spartaxoxo!

Seems like you've given me some testing to do. This is fine, the harrowstorms are still novel enough for me that I enjoy the difficulty.

I personally think it's fun to have some bigger events that require cooperation with others, especially when it's part of a story but when I was hanging around N.E. trying to do my dragon daily I was reminded that being dependent on others to get stuff done isn't always fun when it involves uncertain wait times. But it doesn't make sense to me to nerf a dragon to be more soloable, there should just be better incentives to do them so they happen more frequently. (I mostly don't do them now either).

The point about harrowstorms scaling so that they would last longer during events is very good.

Aardappelboom

I totally get the request, but if they apply it, I would prefer them to look at overland difficulty first.

I like to solo them, it's very different content from a dungeon or even a world boss and I enjoy it.

Also there's a thread right now about making dolmens and geysers more difficult. Which goes to show how important and tricky this difficulty thing actually is.

SilverBride

It's not the difficulty alone that's the issue. It's the fact that there aren't many players in Western Skyrim doing these now, and it's hard to find a group at all let alone a group that is experienced with them.

Harrowstorms are a challenge even with a full group. With a group of 3 or 4 it's sometimes not possible and I've seen groups give up from the frustration.

I know there are SOME players that solo them but that is far from the norm, and is not the reality of what I see when trying to complete these today.

I'm not even suggesting that the mobs have their difficulty lowered. Just scale how many ghosts and mini bosses spawn to the number of players fighting them so players today can complete this content.

Aardappelboom

SilverBride wrote: »

It's not the difficulty alone that's the issue. It's the fact that there aren't many players in Western Skyrim doing these now, and it's hard to find a group at all let alone a group that is experienced with them.

Harrowstorms are a challenge even with a full group. With a group of 3 or 4 it's sometimes not possible and I've seen groups give up from the frustration.

I know there are SOME players that solo them but that is far from the norm, and is not the reality of what I see when trying to complete these today.

I'm not even suggesting that the mobs have their difficulty lowered. Just scale how many ghosts and mini bosses spawn to the number of players fighting them so players today can complete this content.

Everyone should be allowed to enjoy the story, I see your arguments but, it is very much about difficulty and the real problem is the large gap between low and high skill and the very segmented content to (try and) cater to both sides.

While I don't disagree with the change it's very much a change related to a bigger problem, scaling it by numbers would benefit you, and others in this particular situation. But the fact remains that while you're asking for A, someone else is asking for B.

ZOS just needs to fix the root, not just tweak here and there, starting with the overland content thread and tying in the dungeon storymode request, which all comes down to the same thing: difficulty.

SilverBride

Aardappelboom wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It's not the difficulty alone that's the issue. It's the fact that there aren't many players in Western Skyrim doing these now, and it's hard to find a group at all let alone a group that is experienced with them.

Harrowstorms are a challenge even with a full group. With a group of 3 or 4 it's sometimes not possible and I've seen groups give up from the frustration.

I know there are SOME players that solo them but that is far from the norm, and is not the reality of what I see when trying to complete these today.

I'm not even suggesting that the mobs have their difficulty lowered. Just scale how many ghosts and mini bosses spawn to the number of players fighting them so players today can complete this content.

Everyone should be allowed to enjoy the story, I see your arguments but, it is very much about difficulty...

No, it's not. It's about less populated zones and not being able to find groups for this content because of it. So any groups that do form are small and the Harrowstorm should account for that, unless they find a way to get a lot of players to come back to the zone and run these.

fleetingyouth_ESO

Scaling is not the answer and you shouldn't jump to making content easier because of low population/interest. Elsywer is an older zone yet there are always people doing dragons. Why is that? You should be asking the devs to create new incentives for players to do harrowstorms just like the dragons. The problem isnt old content its that its not worth doing for a lot of people. It would be a lot easier and better for the community to increase the reason to do harrowstorms than add scaling and essentially make them boring like geysers. Geysers are never hard. if you solo them its essentially a dolmen if there are any more than 2 people it's over in 2 mins. what is the point of that? How is that fun for anyone?

Make them more like Dragons, not like geysers. That way players who want a challenge still get one and there are more players during busy hours for the rest to get them done. Plus everyone gets better rewards for their effort.

Androrix

fleetingyouth_ESO wrote: »

Scaling is not the answer and you shouldn't jump to making content easier because of low population/interest. Elsywer is an older zone yet there are always people doing dragons. Why is that? You should be asking the devs to create new incentives for players to do harrowstorms just like the dragons. The problem isnt old content its that its not worth doing for a lot of people. It would be a lot easier and better for the community to increase the reason to do harrowstorms than add scaling and essentially make them boring like geysers. Geysers are never hard. if you solo them its essentially a dolmen if there are any more than 2 people it's over in 2 mins. what is the point of that? How is that fun for anyone?

Make them more like Dragons, not like geysers. That way players who want a challenge still get one and there are more players during busy hours for the rest to get them done. Plus everyone gets better rewards for their effort.

Good points. I think people have different interests in this game. Some people enjoy housing most, for example. Some people don't want a challenge, others do. Like you, I am in the want a challenge group. My experience is similar to yours. I do not have difficulty getting players in zone to come to a Harrowstorm if I ask. They take longer than dolmens and geysers but are very doable when you know the mechanics with even a few players of any level. and I am not in a guild. That is just my experience, but I respect that others like OP have a different view and experience.

p.s. OP's post has raised a fair point about certain zones being less populated. Players who want help trying to do WBs in VVardenfell, for example, may have a wait. I have not found Western Skyrim to be at that level yet. Starter zones are well populated becasue of new players. I have no idea how devs could repopulate older DLC zones.

Veinblood1965

I have to agree.

SilverBride

Androrix wrote: »

...I do not have difficulty getting players in zone to come to a Harrowstorm if I ask. They take longer than dolmens and geysers but are very doable when you know the mechanics...

I do have trouble getting groups, especially down in Greymoor Caverns. There just aren't that many players around who will take the time to come help.

How many new players coming to the zone are going to be experienced with Harrowstorms and know the mechanics?

"They are very doable when you know the mechanics" should read "They are very doable by all size groups and all experience and skill levels" because that is the mix of players that is in the zone and that make up the groups.

I'm not even suggesting that the mobs have their difficulty reduced. Just scale the amount of ghosts and minibosses to the number of players.

ADarklore

I agree, they should scale just like dolmens.

Androrix

SilverBride wrote: »

"They are very doable when you know the mechanics" should read "They are very doable by all size groups and all experience and skill levels" because that is the mix of players that is in the zone and that make up the groups.

I'm not even suggesting that the mobs have their difficulty reduced. Just scale the amount of ghosts and minibosses to the number of players.

Fair enough. I respect your viewpoint and I think you have stated it very eloquently. I do, however, think Harowstorms are doable with a mix of low ranked players who know the mechanics.

I would like the harder DLC dungeons and trials to be scaled so I can solo them because I prefer to play solo. That will never happen of course (why not though?), so there are whole rafts of things in the game I cannot do. At least with Harrowstorms people will appear, it just requires patience.

That said, I understand and respect the point you have made. Respectfully, I disagree. But it is just my opinion and worth everything you paid for it.

SilverBride

I don't want them made soloable so I don't think they should scale to one player, but there are ways they could prevent this from happening.

They could start with a minimum number of ghosts and minibosses for a group size of 3 or 4, then if the group is larger the number of these would increase. But the way it is now there are the same amount of ghosts and minibosses for these small groups as there is for full groups, even though being a less populated zone now we never see full groups any more.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't want them made soloable so I don't think they should scale to one player, but there are ways they could prevent this from happening.

They could start with a minimum number of ghosts and minibosses for a group size of 3 or 4, then if the group is larger the number of these would increase. But the way it is now there are the same amount of ghosts and minibosses for these small groups as there is for full groups, even though being a less populated zone now we never see full groups any more.

Could you clarify what is meant by "minimum number of mini bosses?" Do you mean you want the mini bosses to have less health in small groups?

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't want them made soloable so I don't think they should scale to one player, but there are ways they could prevent this from happening.

They could start with a minimum number of ghosts and minibosses for a group size of 3 or 4, then if the group is larger the number of these would increase. But the way it is now there are the same amount of ghosts and minibosses for these small groups as there is for full groups, even though being a less populated zone now we never see full groups any more.

Do you mean you want the mini bosses to have less health in small groups?

No. I mean I want less minibosses spawning in smaller groups.

I'm not wanting to make the mobs pushovers, but a group of 3 or 4 can become overwhelmed by the number of minibosses rather quickly, especially if the group members are not experienced with Harrowstorms which is often the case.

If ZoS agrees that scaling would be reasonable it would of course be up to them how to do it.

Necrotech_Master

the strategy i used when soloing (or duoing them with my girlfriend) was straight burn one of the pikes so the minis spawn slower, but usually this will always result in at least 1 mini spawning

the mini has roughly the same strength as a world boss (the shrikes dmg is still a bit overtuned), but if at least 1 pike is down then they do spawn in significantly slower (because then your killing a 2nd pike and only 1 is absorbing ghosts)

if there are 2 pikes absorbing ghosts, yeah the minis spawn really fast from that

i think an acceptable scaling method would just scale how many ghosts are required for a mini to actually spawn, since right now it is some fixed number that is way too low for large groups but way too high for smaller/lower dmg and coordination groups

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't want them made soloable so I don't think they should scale to one player, but there are ways they could prevent this from happening.

They could start with a minimum number of ghosts and minibosses for a group size of 3 or 4, then if the group is larger the number of these would increase. But the way it is now there are the same amount of ghosts and minibosses for these small groups as there is for full groups, even though being a less populated zone now we never see full groups any more.

Do you mean you want the mini bosses to have less health in small groups?

No. I mean I want less minibosses spawning in smaller groups.

Oh, in that case the minimum number is already zero. Even with a small group it's possible to have zero champions ever spawn.

I made a video because I initially wanted to share it with @Liguar but I can share it here because I think it helps to show how the devs could make things simpler.

https://youtu.be/YhGcTjRPInU

In the video, on the 3rd pike you can see that once I clear out the minis that had spawned on the first and second pike, I didn't get any new minis at all. This is because I made sure the ghosts died to AOE. In fact, it takes a while for her to even begin the ritual again because she needs the ghosts to do it.

If the ghosts slowed down significantly, you'd automatically have less minis. There would be less minis if they moved slow enough for a very small group to have time to clear 1 pike's ghosts and then the next's ghosts. There used to be and then they changed it.

SilverBride

I've not been in one with zero champions yet.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

I've not been in one with zero champions yet.

Ever since they buffed ghost speed a long time ago (around same time they disallowed stuns to totally disable ghosts), I don't think that I have seen have seen a zero champions either.

You'd have to have a large group, all focusing different pikes, and they have to be there instantly when it spawns because if players aren't there she spawns a champ extremely quickly.

I don't know if anyone is able to still get that achievement during non-event times anymore. I bet the ghost speed buff broke the achievement.

I wonder if players can even still get the achievement without an event.

But that's a question for @ZOS_Kevin.

Necrotech_Master

theres actually 2 different achievements related to the storms

• one as sparta noted is for never letting a champion spawn (very difficult to do outside of event)
• the other one is for killing at least 5+ champions during a single harrowstorm (very difficult to do DURING an event, and even sometimes when there is about 12 players at a harrow)

honestly both of these have problems with the quantity of ghosts it takes to spawn a mini

you can kind of get the no champion one now, but you would have to get to the harrow alone die so it resets and then try again (if there is only 1 player at the harrow and they die, it resets the mobs like in a failed dungeon boss encounter)

fleetingyouth_ESO

I think Sparta's video is a perfect example of how avoiding the mechanics/HA makes Harrowstorms significantly easier. I solo them in almost the same manner. Sparta isn't running some insane dps build or a heavy tank build. They simply avoid the big hits and maintain damage on the pikes.

Silver I understand your point and I agree in the sense that I wish more players were around in that zone to do harrowstorms. There does need to be more reasons to populate some older zones. I enjoy soloing storms but I don't do a bunch in a row. Sometimes I do like to farm them for an hour with a group. While I dont have a hard time finding people to do them at the times I play I realize that may not be the case for everyone.

However, you keep using scaling like it doesn't mean making content easier for most players and that's where I disagree. Scaling is nerfing content plain and simple. Scaling doesn't improve your original issue of low population it just makes content easier to do for those few who want the rewards with less effort. It's not going to all of a sudden draw lots of players to Skyrim.

Scailing reverses the difficulty of the current system instead of it being challenging for those who enjoy doing it solo or in small groups it removes that challenge entirely. While larger groups who typically could finish storms relatively easily will not see it become more difficult it will still be just as easy if not easier. Therefore the only people who really benefit from scaling are those who want easier content with fewer players.

There needs to be a reason for players to want to do that content. Otherwise, you're just making it easier for the few who currently want the rewards and ruining it for the few who like the challenge.

If you had a choice between easier harrowstorms with smaller groups or more players populating Skyrim doing storms which would you choose?

Because while they seem to solve the same problem one leads to easier rewards for the few and the other keeps the enjoyment of the content while providing reasons for more players to do that content.

Again Dragons are a good example. There are always groups doing dragons because there are valuable rewards worth farming and its older content. I almost never see anyone doing geysers and they are essentially a chore like dolmens that get solo'd by most or maybe a couple people show up during it.

Wandering bosses are another example that needs help. They are very difficult for most players and most need a group. But very few people do them. They need more incentive to do not scaling. Scaling would just make them obsolete like most world bosses.