I want Arcanist to require a lot of LA weaving in order to be effective

aaisoaho

Arcanist just might be already designed to be performing better with light attacks than with heavy attacks. Why? Skill casting tempo. If the skills themselves generate crux when casted, the light attack builds will build crux faster than heavy attack builds. Light attack builds can cast skills on cooldown, where as heavy attack builds channels the heavy attacks and casts skills maybe once every 2 seconds or so. That means they cast the skills half as fast, and if the crux generation is tied to skill casting, they generate crux twice as low compared to light attack builds.

Meiox

And I just wanna have fun with him :-)

Snamyap

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't know if Crux will build off of LA.

What REALLY worries me about the Crux system is since it can make damage and probably even heals and tank abilities stronger that it will mean that the "uncruxed" version of the ability will be trash so that it won't be OP.

That will mean that for an ability to be even worth casting you might have to have a certain amount of crux built up otherwise it'll hit like a noodle. If the system works that way I don't see me having an Arcanist.

Agreed, I can understand (trail) sets having a build before they get their full potential in a fight. Having that as a base principe for a class would be very annoying in questing content.

The_Titan_Tim

aaisoaho wrote: »

Arcanist just might be already designed to be performing better with light attacks than with heavy attacks. Why? Skill casting tempo. If the skills themselves generate crux when casted, the light attack builds will build crux faster than heavy attack builds. Light attack builds can cast skills on cooldown, where as heavy attack builds channels the heavy attacks and casts skills maybe once every 2 seconds or so. That means they cast the skills half as fast, and if the crux generation is tied to skill casting, they generate crux twice as low compared to light attack builds.

Pretty much this…

My main concern with this Crux building system is that it will force certain abilities on EVERY Arcanist as a form of Crux creation.

There is no scenario where a heavy attack Arcanist will outperform a Light Attack one with the Crux system as an ability generated stack, or a basic attack one, as you will get more Light Attacks than Heavy Attacks, and you will cast abilities faster using Light Attack weaving.

If Crux generation lands as a passive built on basic attacks instead of abilities, the class would be much more dynamic.

SilverBride

Absolutely not. One of the reasons I don't participate in end game is because I don't want to have to do a lot of "do this skill then this skill, then keep track of the cool downs, then twirl around clockwise twice" etc.

If players choose to do these things then that is their choice but no class should be dependent on it to be effective.

ZOS_Phoenix

Greetings, as we've removed or edited a few non-constructive and baiting comments, please remember that while it’s all right to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

Feljax

As I despise the whole weaving concept, it's a hard NO from me.

colossalvoids

Looked like assassin from D2 with it's spender and charger skills, so la would most probably more effective than ha just because you'll be able to spam chargers more in the time period.

Hyperdeathstalker

Somesones been insta killed by heavy attack build lol

Zos heavy attack this discussion outta here ...

I_killed_Vivec

ZoS have said they want to narrow the gap between elite weavers and normal players... imagine if they used the arcanist crux mechanism to reduce the effectiveness of LA weaving

When you have built up crux each LA depletes your crux stack without boosting your damage.

Using skills also depletes your crux stack, but each skill is boosted by more than the LAs you choose to miss out on.

So building up and using crux will always do more damage than LA weaving, which effectively takes you out of the crux mechanism.

HA is neutral - neither gains from crux nor depletes your reserve.

Clicky-fingered muscle-memory would have to be re-learnt!

SeaGtGruff

If LA weaving using the "right" rotations is always going to deliver higher DPS for a particular class than not using LA weaving or using it with the "wrong" rotations, then why should ZOS even need to purposely design any class to "require" LA weaving in order to be "effective"?

And what does "effective" even mean in this discussion? If the request is for ZOS to deliberately design Arcanist or any other class to perform like utter garbage unless the player uses LA weaving, then I strongly disagree.

No one should be forced to use LA weaving or any other given technique just to get their class to be "effective"-- not "most effective" (which is already the case, anyway), but "effective" with absolutely no qualifiers. What the actual bleep?

axi

To be honest seeing how popular heavy attack rotations have gotten I wouldn't be suprised if arcanist would have some buffs to heavy attacks to encourage people even more to buy new chapter.

RaptorRodeoGod

Nyseto wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Whose heavy attack build hurt you?

Many HA builds seem to be hurt by LA builds. I see threads hoping that HA builds won’t be nerfed. I really don’t understand this fear of LA weaving.

It's not a fear of LA weaving, it's objectively not fun for a certain subset of people. If I wanted to play Dance Dance Revolution with my fingers, I'd play Guitar Hero.

peacenote

I think it should... be in line with other classes? Best performance with perfect LA weaving, more than acceptable performance for most scenarios with imperfect LA weaving, acceptable performance in many cases with little/no LA weaving, viable in many scenarios with HA weaving option.

I'm all for class identity but the class would be much less accessible/appealing to a broad variety of play styles if it didn't incorporate these things like all the others.

OBJnoob

So if the game isn't fun for you then play Guitar Hero, lol.

The thing is it isn't that LAs do more damage than HAs it's just that abilities do more damage than both so the more abilities you use the more damage you do. And I hope we can all agree that this is fair.

I for one am fine with how well HA builds perform in PvE I'm glad that some of you, for whatever reasons you may have, have a way to be competitive with something you find more fun, less stressful, etc etc as the case may be.

And I find the original purpose of this thread to be... Eh, wrong.

So I'm on your side. BUT. The game is what it is. If you don't enjoy it, for whatever reason, then yes you should play something else. Because it's just a game and there are countless games. It wouldn't be right for a game that has paying customers to change from DDR to Guitar Hero. The user should just buy the game they like.

tincanman

I think the lightning heavy attack animations will look really pretty with the emerald green Arcanist stuff.

/s

Nyseto

I think that instead of nerfing HA builds, that LA should be buffed even more and newer content just being harder. The gap can still be widened without nerfing HA directly. That way LA players will be less inclined to call for HA nerfs and HA players will be less inclined to complain about “elitism” and “gatekeeping”.

MidniteOwl1913

A skilled LA will always beat most HA, so why the need to ruin a new class for HA users?

rpa

Arcanist should be totally cheesy OP to sell chapter to those who chase OP. To be nerfed later of course. Making it to PIA to play for average player would be a financial mistake.

RaptorRodeoGod

Nyseto wrote: »

I think that instead of nerfing HA builds, that LA should be buffed even more and newer content just being harder. The gap can still be widened without nerfing HA directly. That way LA players will be less inclined to call for HA nerfs and HA players will be less inclined to complain about “elitism” and “gatekeeping”.

Newer content is already harder. When interviewed about making vDSR and Hard Mode, they said every year they pull out all the stops, and make it as hard as possible for endgamers.

kind_hero

Nyseto wrote: »

Anyone else agree? I’m all for merit-based performance and as such, I think arcanist should require the use of LA weaving in order for it to be effective, much like a NB. Since it will use Crux, this tells me that it will be even more likely.

Thoughts?

I dislike "weaving". It's a glitch that became a feature. ESO is the only game I have played where I need to do "pew-pew" with my staff in order to use spells effectively. It feels worse with other weapons, like two-handed or bows. Maybe you got used with it, but I know lots of players, especially new ones, who don't understand this mechanic and also don't find it fun. That's why I hope the arcanist will be different, and bring some new mechanics.

Hurbster

I have carpal tunnel in both wrists, this gameplay will be the end of me.

Soarora

Nyseto wrote: »

I think that instead of nerfing HA builds, that LA should be buffed even more and newer content just being harder. The gap can still be widened without nerfing HA directly. That way LA players will be less inclined to call for HA nerfs and HA players will be less inclined to complain about “elitism” and “gatekeeping”.

Widening the gap is gatekeeping, is it not? LA shouldn’t be buffed either unless old content’s gonna get buffed too. There’s nothing wrong with HA builds in totality, I actually have a lot of respect for 2-bar HA builds. Also, making new content too much harder means less and less people can even do it. I’ve seen about like… 1-2 vDSR HM training runs. Same for RG.

Deter1UK

For me:

This game is about what is happenning on the screen not what is happening in my chair.

I've been playing since MUD's and this is the best and most inclusive I have experienced. (I'm 70 this year)

I'm not competing with anyone to go anywhere or join anything. HA allows me to properly play mechanics and deal decent damage in groups with my guild and experience DLC content without worryiing I'm going to let the group down.

I'm happy, the guild is happy and my friends are happy.

Plus I can stand at the back in PVP seiges and push out enough damage to help stop people coming through the door.

SO. Leave it alone please.

KlauthWarthog

LA weaving is not even the cause for the damage difference caused by the skill gap in the first place. Managing resources, buffs, dots and cooldowns are the cause, coupled with proper use of the global cooldown.
You could remove LA weaving entirely, and there would still be a massive difference in damage output between people who manage the stuff I mentioned masterfully, and those who don't.
So just stop obsessing with LA weaving already. It is just the cherry on top, not the actual cake.

Blackbird_V

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

LA weaving is not even the cause for the damage difference caused by the skill gap in the first place. Managing resources, buffs, dots and cooldowns are the cause, coupled with proper use of the global cooldown.
You could remove LA weaving entirely, and there would still be a massive difference in damage output between people who manage the stuff I mentioned masterfully, and those who don't.
So just stop obsessing with LA weaving already. It is just the cherry on top, not the actual cake.

I had a guy in a dungeon yesterday that was doing 4.8k dps average throughout the whole dungeon. Managing dots etc. is a HUGE one.

This is the person's ESO Damage Done Log on Valkyn Skoria, Veteran City of Ash II:

Grizzbeorn

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

LA weaving is not even the cause for the damage difference caused by the skill gap in the first place. Managing resources, buffs, dots and cooldowns are the cause, coupled with proper use of the global cooldown.
You could remove LA weaving entirely, and there would still be a massive difference in damage output between people who manage the stuff I mentioned masterfully, and those who don't.
So just stop obsessing with LA weaving already. It is just the cherry on top, not the actual cake.

As though there likely isn't a huge correlation between those people who LA weave and are masterful at managing their resources.
The two go hand-in-hand; at both ends of the spectrum.
People who aren't good at managing their resources probably don't LA weave, either.

Jaimeh

I think OP means more in the sense of the whether the skill will involve a condition or proc based on building LA stacks, much like Relentless Focus or Bound Armaments. If that's the case, then you could either not slot the skill or slot it and forego the condition if you want to play a HA build. Overall, it seems like a clanky class for smooth weaving, though I hope that's not the case, because I really like weaving. It makes combat more involved and fast paced for me. Good news is you don't need it for the majority of the content, so it doesn't matter so much in that sense.

JJMaxx1980

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

LA weaving is not even the cause for the damage difference caused by the skill gap in the first place. Managing resources, buffs, dots and cooldowns are the cause, coupled with proper use of the global cooldown.
You could remove LA weaving entirely, and there would still be a massive difference in damage output between people who manage the stuff I mentioned masterfully, and those who don't.
So just stop obsessing with LA weaving already. It is just the cherry on top, not the actual cake.

While the damage from LA’s themselves is usually less than 10% of overall damage, you have to take into consideration that your LA’s are proccing your sets such as Relequen or Whorl, as well as proccing the enchants on the weapons.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Combat & Character Mechanics section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.