I want Arcanist to require a lot of LA weaving in order to be effective

Nyseto

Anyone else agree? I’m all for merit-based performance and as such, I think arcanist should require the use of LA weaving in order for it to be effective, much like a NB. Since it will use Crux, this tells me that it will be even more likely.

Thoughts?

Araneae6537

Don’t all classes? IMHO, best is if there are different ways to play that can be effective, even though LA weaving will likely always be meta.

The_Titan_Tim

I fear Crux will build up on casts of particular abilities in the kit, not from LAs, other abilities will scale with Crux up to 3x.

This system will allow average abilities to be completely overperforming when combo’d correctly, resetting your Crux back to zero.

The only other class I can think of that performs similar is Dragonknight with Molten Whip, although it’s reversed, where you have plenty of abilities that make stacks, there will more than likely only be a few on Arcanist, most will consume them.

Hapexamendios

Whose heavy attack build hurt you?

ghost_bg_ESO

myths, myths everywhere (insert toy story meme)

i'm happily running magblade only on skills and LA only on execute

(who da hell needs insane damage outside of trials and vet dlc )

Cazador

I disagree. LA weaving is already the stronger option and I'd rather it be effective in as many different ways as possible.

Supreme_Atromancer

I don't know if that would be a good idea.

Weaving/cancelling is already a highly divisive thing. Given that, making Arcanist performance overly dependent on it would probably lessen its appeal greatly.

Secondly, I question weaving/cancelling being proxy for "merit-based performance". I think there should be far more design space for challenge and skill.

Full disclosure: I can weave/cancel decently, and I consider myself a reasonably capable player. I personally strongly dislike the mechanic, so from a purely personal perspective, I'd dislike it.

I'm not against designing for performance to have some degree of value, though.

Supreme_Atromancer

Either way, I want to say that regardless, based on the trend set by first Warden, then Necro, that Arcanist is likely to be... a very.... uh competitive.... (ahem) choice for a good amount of time after it launches. Regardless of skill.

Nyseto

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Whose heavy attack build hurt you?

Many HA builds seem to be hurt by LA builds. I see threads hoping that HA builds won’t be nerfed. I really don’t understand this fear of LA weaving.

TybaltKaine

So, you essentially want a class to underperform for people who physically cannot LA weave because...why exactly?

HA builds are a viable alternative (finally) precisely because people who cannot, for whatever reason or another, use LA weaving want to still be able to enjoy the game, even in high level content.

Hapexamendios

Nyseto wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Whose heavy attack build hurt you?

Many HA builds seem to be hurt by LA builds. There’s a thread in PTS hoping that HA builds won’t be nerfed. I really don’t understand this fear of LA weaving.

For some people, myself included, there is no fear of light attack weaving. It's a physical inability to do them effectively. I'm over 50 and my reaction times are not what they used to be. Heavy attack builds are just more effective for me.

Nyseto

TybaltKaine wrote: »

So, you essentially want a class to underperform for people who physically cannot LA weave because...why exactly?

HA builds are a viable alternative (finally) precisely because people who cannot, for whatever reason or another, use LA weaving want to still be able to enjoy the game, even in high level content.

Framing it that way appears to be more of a bad faith argument. It’s not about making a class underperform for people who cannot physically weave, it is about merit.

Nyseto

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Whose heavy attack build hurt you?

Many HA builds seem to be hurt by LA builds. There’s a thread in PTS hoping that HA builds won’t be nerfed. I really don’t understand this fear of LA weaving.

For some people, myself included, there is no fear of light attack weaving. It's a physical inability to do them effectively. I'm over 50 and my reaction times are not what they used to be. Heavy attack builds are just more effective for me.

That’s why I’m all for also improving LA weaving to widen the gap. Those who can’t weave as well can do better dps, as a result. In fact with the scribes of fate DLC, that’s what’s going to happen

TybaltKaine

You assume that people who use LA builds are better players than players who use HA builds, and then equate merit to preference.

[snip]

LA weaving and HA builds are both viable and neither is more "meritorious" than the other. Don't conflate worth with numbers on a screen.

[Edited for baiting]

Nyseto

[snip]

People such as myself love challenges. One big aspect of a game is the satisfaction of putting in the proper work. If everything is handed on a silver platter, it sucks the competitiveness out, therefore the fun.

[Edited for quote]

Kisakee

Nyseto wrote: »

[snip]

People such as myself love challenges. One big aspect of a game is the satisfaction of putting in the proper work. If everything is handed on a silver platter, it sucks the competitiveness out, therefore the fun.

If you want competition go play some PvP, PvE is a team effort.

[Edited for quote]

Artim_X

Play how you want. That's my expectation. There will continue to be plenty of gear and skill options to ensure that different playstyles can be "effective" on this class. Yes, there will always be a meta related to light attacks. However, that is not the only way to play while still being able to get the job done.

Nyseto

Kisakee wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

[snip]

People such as myself love challenges. One big aspect of a game is the satisfaction of putting in the proper work. If everything is handed on a silver platter, it sucks the competitiveness out, therefore the fun.

If you want competition go play some PvP, PvE is a team effort.

I do play pvp, I prefer it over pve.

You’re still competing with other players for top dps in order to get into a good guild. If competition didn’t exist in pve then no one would be asking for parses.

[Edited for quote]

Mik195

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Either way, I want to say that regardless, based on the trend set by first Warden, then Necro, that Arcanist is likely to be... a very.... uh competitive.... (ahem) choice for a good amount of time after it launches. Regardless of skill.

And then it join them at the permanent bottom (warden in pvp during random patches a possible exception).

Kisakee

Nyseto wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

[snip]

People such as myself love challenges. One big aspect of a game is the satisfaction of putting in the proper work. If everything is handed on a silver platter, it sucks the competitiveness out, therefore the fun.

If you want competition go play some PvP, PvE is a team effort.

I do play pvp, I prefer it over pve.

You’re still competing with other players for top dps in order to get into a good guild. If competition didn’t exist in pve then no one would be asking for parses.

Asking for high damage isn't about competition on it's own but about getting things done as a team. [snip]

And no, i don't want the so called Light Attack Weaving (it's just animation cancelling in reality) to be that crucial. In fact i want to see it getting burried once and forever as it's nothing but a remnant exploit they never fixed but sell as a "feature" nowadays.

[Edited for quote and light baiting]

Nyseto

Kisakee wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

[snip ]

People such as myself love challenges. One big aspect of a game is the satisfaction of putting in the proper work. If everything is handed on a silver platter, it sucks the competitiveness out, therefore the fun.

If you want competition go play some PvP, PvE is a team effort.

I do play pvp, I prefer it over pve.

You’re still competing with other players for top dps in order to get into a good guild. If competition didn’t exist in pve then no one would be asking for parses.

Asking for high damage isn't about competition on it's own but about getting things done as a team. You instead want to stand above everyone else even if they're on the same team, now that's elitism.

And no, i don't want the so called Light Attack Weaving (it's just animation cancelling in reality) to be that crucial. In fact i want to see it getting burried once and forever as it's nothing but a remnant exploit they never fixed but sell as a "feature" nowadays.

[snip] I would want other dps to compete with me in a trial, it would only lead to raising the bar higher, and higher. It’s motivating to be better, which in turn helps out the team to do better. There’s an add-on which breaks down dps contributions throughout. It’s a lot of fun and I think it makes a team better

[Edited for quote and light baiting]

Kisakee

Nyseto wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

[snip]

People such as myself love challenges. One big aspect of a game is the satisfaction of putting in the proper work. If everything is handed on a silver platter, it sucks the competitiveness out, therefore the fun.

If you want competition go play some PvP, PvE is a team effort.

I do play pvp, I prefer it over pve.

You’re still competing with other players for top dps in order to get into a good guild. If competition didn’t exist in pve then no one would be asking for parses.

Asking for high damage isn't about competition on it's own but about getting things done as a team. [snip]

And no, i don't want the so called Light Attack Weaving (it's just animation cancelling in reality) to be that crucial. In fact i want to see it getting burried once and forever as it's nothing but a remnant exploit they never fixed but sell as a "feature" nowadays.

[snip] I would want other dps to compete with me in a trial, it would only lead to raising the bar higher, and higher. It’s motivating to be better, which in turn helps out the team to do better. There’s an add-on which breaks down dps contributions throughout. It’s a lot of fun and I think it makes a team better

If there are others who want to compete with you that's fine but don't push those who don't want to or who are simply unable to do so into that direction. You asked for my opinion, there you have it.

[Edited for quote]

Nyseto

Kisakee wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

[snip]

People such as myself love challenges. One big aspect of a game is the satisfaction of putting in the proper work. If everything is handed on a silver platter, it sucks the competitiveness out, therefore the fun.

If you want competition go play some PvP, PvE is a team effort.

I do play pvp, I prefer it over pve.

You’re still competing with other players for top dps in order to get into a good guild. If competition didn’t exist in pve then no one would be asking for parses.

Asking for high damage isn't about competition on it's own but about getting things done as a team. [snip]

And no, i don't want the so called Light Attack Weaving (it's just animation cancelling in reality) to be that crucial. In fact i want to see it getting burried once and forever as it's nothing but a remnant exploit they never fixed but sell as a "feature" nowadays.

[snip] I would want other dps to compete with me in a trial, it would only lead to raising the bar higher, and higher. It’s motivating to be better, which in turn helps out the team to do better. There’s an add-on which breaks down dps contributions throughout. It’s a lot of fun and I think it makes a team better

If there are others who want to compete with you that's fine but don't push those who don't want to or who are simply unable to do so into that direction. You asked for my opinion, there you have it.

They’re already making weaving more effective for those who can’t weave as well come next update. Even less reason for people to run away from weaving. Those who are physically unable to weave are edge cases. I’m talking about those who think weaving is simply too much work.

[Edited for quote]

chessalavakia_ESO

Nyseto wrote: »

Anyone else agree? I’m all for merit-based performance and as such, I think arcanist should require the use of LA weaving in order for it to be effective, much like a NB. Since it will use Crux, this tells me that it will be even more likely.

Thoughts?

I think it would make some people very happy in the short term and would otherwise hit relatively poor long term results.

Fundamentally, you have two possibilities:

Either the Arcanist does more damage than all of the other classes at it's peak and the majority of the DPS for the harder runs will feel the need to be Arcanists and people complain about P2W.

or

The Arcanist does the same DPS as the other classes when played at peak which means that everyone playing under peak skill will do poor damage because it's highly skill based and people will moan if they run into many because most of that game simply isn't that good.

You see this in plenty of other games. Characters with higher skill requirements end up being either must picks at the top or throw picks everywhere else or sometimes even both.

I have no idea what direction they'll go with it because the Arcanist is really not at all where I was expecting a class to go.

Nyseto

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Anyone else agree? I’m all for merit-based performance and as such, I think arcanist should require the use of LA weaving in order for it to be effective, much like a NB. Since it will use Crux, this tells me that it will be even more likely.

Thoughts?

I think it would make some people very happy in the short term and would otherwise hit relatively poor long term results.

Fundamentally, you have two possibilities:

Either the Arcanist does more damage than all of the other classes at it's peak and the majority of the DPS for the harder runs will feel the need to be Arcanists and people complain about P2W.

or

The Arcanist does the same DPS as the other classes when played at peak which means that everyone playing under peak skill will do poor damage because it's highly skill based and people will moan if they run into many because most of that game simply isn't that good.

You see this in plenty of other games. Characters with higher skill requirements end up being either must picks at the top or throw picks everywhere else or sometimes even both.

I have no idea what direction they'll go with it because the Arcanist is really not at all where I was expecting a class to go.

A constructive comment unlike some of these other snarky comments here.

They did say they’ve been working on the class for a few years now and Crux sounds like it’s going to require more attention and thought than just mindlessly going through rotations.

PeacefulAnarchy

it should be a no weapon attack class, where you build stacks with consecutive skill casts. no HA no LA, a third way if you will.

Soarora

I disagree. NB is the LA weave class. We don’t need Arcanist to be a mix of every class that already exists, taking away the last of class identity. Also, if anything, I agree with PeacefulAnarchy. The crux mechanic seems pretty complicated on it’s own, LA shouldn’t be a requirement for any of the Arcanist skills.

Grizzbeorn

Nyseto wrote: »

Anyone else agree?

Nope.
Horrible idea, to actually require it of a class when the ability already exists for ALL classes if a player wants to play that way.

And because the ability to weave DOES already exist... so, too, does your coveted "merit."

People who incorporate LA weaving into their playstyle can do more damage than other folks with similar playstyles who don't use LA weaving.
And there seems to be a consensus in your other thread that LA builds outperform HA builds as an answer to your
question in that thread,
ERGO... merit already exists WITHOUT the need to "require" it (LA weaving) of a class.

OtarTheMad

I don't know if Crux will build off of LA.

What REALLY worries me about the Crux system is since it can make damage and probably even heals and tank abilities stronger that it will mean that the "uncruxed" version of the ability will be trash so that it won't be OP.

That will mean that for an ability to be even worth casting you might have to have a certain amount of crux built up otherwise it'll hit like a noodle. If the system works that way I don't see me having an Arcanist.

Bobargus

I couldn't disagree more. I hate having to deal damage with light attacks. Mashing that attack button, no thanks.

MaleAmazon

Show me on the trial dummy where the HA weaver touched you.

Ok, in all seriousness, there is no reason to design, a class to not be able to use HA weave effectively.

HA weave setups are good because you don´t need to invest in any sustain and can max out damage. And you can still burst LA weave with them, you just can´t do it for an extended time. LA weaves are still better in terms of max dps - and will be boosted in the patch coming out in a few days. Yes, the boost is primarily a 'floor raiser' but I am sure high score-chasing groups will manage.

[snip]

[Edited for minor baiting]