DLC and non-DLC dungeons need separate queues.

tmbrinks

Amottica wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The bottom line is that many players do not want to run DLC dungeons. Why should these players be forced to run them anyway just so they can "fill in" for a group that does want to run them?

@SilverBride

No one is forcing them to run a DLC since no one is forcing anyone to queue for a random. That is the true bottom line.

Exactly. You can either queue for any combination of dungeons that you specifically want.

Or, you can queue for the random, help fill a group, and get bonus rewards to compensate.

washbern

the way the game works, Transmute gems are one of key currency items that you need to build up your characters. Running a Random is one of the fastest ways of acquiring said currency without having to dip into PVP or (even worse) tales of tribute.

So yes, running a random normal is a staple part of daily rotation for many players even if the game does not specifically say that it is mandatory.

If an experienced player joins a group and everyone is under 300 CP it is easy to assume that the group is inexperienced. So the options for such player are either to spend and obscene amount of time on the dungeon with uncertainty of completion or leaving the dungeon and re-queueing again (which a lot of players prefer to do). At the same time leaving the group that might not clear content is viewed as toxic behavior while queueing for dungeons you have no business in being is viewed as "Oh, they're just learning".

The current system benefits no one and should change.

SilverBride

tmbrinks wrote: »

No need to remove gameplay options. But splitting the queues will lead to significantly longer wait times for both groups, and that is never a good decision... to make things take longer.

Players only choosing non DLC dungeons will also take players out of the queue and create longer queue times. And what about players that just leave once they see they were put into a DLC dungeon, leaving the group short again? How are these options any more reasonable than just creating separate queues?

endgamesmug

Give me all dlc random que please, no more boring base dungeons enough is enough we need the option.

Xarc

Now when I launch a random normal dungeon, if it's a new dlc one, I quick check players in my group and if they're low cp (-500) I just leave.

I have 18 chars and i wont waste my time with them, sorry.

spartaxoxo

washbern wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

Random dungeon, is random dungeon. If you don't want a random one, you can select one or more from the list.

Seems all use cases are covered here... Unless you only play a dungeon for quick daily XP and you don't really want to play a dungeon or find a group eh...

Also never saw the problem here. I have been using dungeon finder for years and 99 percent of the time DLC dungeons in normal mode are not a problem to rush through. And when there is an issue I just give new players hints about the mechanics or how to get past an encounter and it takes a bit longer. But I get more enjoyment out of helping a new player then filling 3mm of my CP XP bar.

I do the randoms for transmute gems. I have been doing them for years but mostly as a dps. In most cases my DPS carries if needed. Saying you don't want to do DLC so don't do randoms does not apply here as it negates the associated rewards. Separating the queues helps experienced players to not get stuck with beginners that can't do the content and it helps beginner people to get into groups appropriate for their skill level. I do not understand why it's a bad thing?

Because DLC dungeons are already difficult to form groups for, and taking away the only thing that gets those groups made is not good for the health of those dungeons.

It's okay for there to be rewards for lending a helping hand. It's okay to have difficult content more rewarding than easier content.

There's nothing from the random bonus that can't be obtained elsewhere.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

No need to remove gameplay options. But splitting the queues will lead to significantly longer wait times for both groups, and that is never a good decision... to make things take longer.

Players only choosing non DLC dungeons will also take players out of the queue and create longer queue times. And what about players that just leave once they see they were put into a DLC dungeon, leaving the group short again? How are these options any more reasonable than just creating separate queues?

Because most people will stick around specifically because they want the reward. The reward is a good payment for helping others because people who would otherwise do something else offer their assistance in exchange for payment for their time.

The vast majority of my normal dlc runs are completed, and most times by the original group. People wouldn't do them if they weren't being paid to be there. They are there because it's an easy way to get transmutes. They could do pvp or tales instead, but they want the ease of the dungeon for the transmute reward.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

No need to remove gameplay options. But splitting the queues will lead to significantly longer wait times for both groups, and that is never a good decision... to make things take longer.

Players only choosing non DLC dungeons will also take players out of the queue and create longer queue times. And what about players that just leave once they see they were put into a DLC dungeon, leaving the group short again? How are these options any more reasonable than just creating separate queues?

Because most people will stick around specifically because they want the reward. The reward is a good payment for helping others because people who would otherwise do something else offer their assistance in exchange for payment for their time.

The vast majority of my normal dlc runs are completed, and most times by the original group. People wouldn't do them if they weren't being paid to be there. They are there because it's an easy way to get transmutes. They could do pvp or tales instead, but they want the ease of the dungeon for the transmute reward.

No player should be obligated to queue for content they don't enjoy just to help someone who wants to run DLC dungeons fill their group. The rewards could easily be adjusted for DLC and non DLC queues, just like they are for Normal and Veteran. There is really no good reason not to do this.

And I will stress that they need to rethink making future Normal DLC dungeons more in line with the original zones. They would still have Veteran for those who want the challenge.

washbern

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Because DLC dungeons are already difficult to form groups for, and taking away the only thing that gets those groups made is not good for the health of those dungeons.

It's okay for there to be rewards for lending a helping hand. It's okay to have difficult content more rewarding than easier content.

There's nothing from the random bonus that can't be obtained elsewhere.

Most veteran players do not queue because they get inexperienced players in the group and the run stretches from 15-20 minutes to well over an hour because you get fake tanks, fake heals, fake dps or sometimes all three. separating the queues will at least help veteran players have more competent groups which should help the queue not hurt it. How does it help if you get Shipwrights Regret dungeon and your dps can't pull 4k between them? how does that help anyone?

tmbrinks

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

No need to remove gameplay options. But splitting the queues will lead to significantly longer wait times for both groups, and that is never a good decision... to make things take longer.

Players only choosing non DLC dungeons will also take players out of the queue and create longer queue times. And what about players that just leave once they see they were put into a DLC dungeon, leaving the group short again? How are these options any more reasonable than just creating separate queues?

Because most people will stick around specifically because they want the reward. The reward is a good payment for helping others because people who would otherwise do something else offer their assistance in exchange for payment for their time.

The vast majority of my normal dlc runs are completed, and most times by the original group. People wouldn't do them if they weren't being paid to be there. They are there because it's an easy way to get transmutes. They could do pvp or tales instead, but they want the ease of the dungeon for the transmute reward.

No player should be obligated to queue for content they don't enjoy just to help someone who wants to run DLC dungeons fill their group. The rewards could easily be adjusted for DLC and non DLC queues, just like they are for Normal and Veteran. There is really no good reason not to do this.

And I will stress that they need to rethink making future Normal DLC dungeons more in line with the original zones. They would still have Veteran for those who want the challenge.

Nobody is obligated to queue for anything. You can pick and choose the dungeons you are comfortable to run each and every time.

washbern

tmbrinks wrote: »

Nobody is obligated to queue for anything. You can pick and choose the dungeons you are comfortable to run each and every time.

If i am a tank queuing for a specific dungeon, i am more likely to get a group of inexperienced players than not. Because the game will pull all the people queueing for a RANDOM and put them into my specific dungeon. So your argument does not hold water. Also, again, if i want 10 transmute gems and a nice exp bump, i am inclined to do a random.

tmbrinks

washbern wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Nobody is obligated to queue for anything. You can pick and choose the dungeons you are comfortable to run each and every time.

If i am a tank queuing for a specific dungeon, i am more likely to get a group of inexperienced players than not. Because the game will pull all the people queueing for a RANDOM and put them into my specific dungeon. So your argument does not hold water. Also, again, if i want 10 transmute gems and a nice exp bump, i am inclined to do a random.

Thus my previous statement. You want the rewards without any of the "risk". Which would defeat the entire purpose of the random queue.

There's alternate sources of both transmutes and XP.

Look, I get it's nice to just blast through FG1 over and over and over again to get your transmutes and XP, and this thread is only a poorly veiled attempt to make that more of a reality.

washbern

i would argue that they can adjust the bonuses for each random. Random Norm is 5 crystals, Random Norm DLC is 10 Random Vet is 7 and random Vet DLC is 15.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

No player should be obligated to queue for content they don't enjoy just to help someone who wants to run DLC dungeons fill their group.

They aren't. They can queue for any specific dungeons you want and activity finder will find you a group. They just don't get the bonus reward for helping people if you don't help. It's the only difference.

spartaxoxo

washbern wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Because DLC dungeons are already difficult to form groups for, and taking away the only thing that gets those groups made is not good for the health of those dungeons.

It's okay for there to be rewards for lending a helping hand. It's okay to have difficult content more rewarding than easier content.

There's nothing from the random bonus that can't be obtained elsewhere.

Most veteran players do not queue because they get inexperienced players in the group and the run stretches from 15-20 minutes to well over an hour because you get fake tanks, fake heals, fake dps or sometimes all three. separating the queues will at least help veteran players have more competent groups which should help the queue not hurt it. How does it help if you get Shipwrights Regret dungeon and your dps can't pull 4k between them? how does that help anyone?

Most vet players just get around it by fake tanking. The courteous ones slot a taunt, at least. Either way, they don't actually care about what the team comp of a normal dungeon.

SilverBride

The dungeon guide mentions using the activity finder to queue for a dungeon. It says:

The most common way to join a group and take on a dungeon is to use the Group & Activity Finder, a tool designed to help you find other players to take on group content with.

Because you are not queuing for a specific unique dungeon, you will be offered a daily bonus premium reward upon completion that includes Undaunted Exploration Supplies and XP.

It does not say that the purpose is to help others fill their groups or that the rewards are given for helping others fill their groups.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/guides/dungeonsguide

spartaxoxo

a tool designed to help you find other players to take on group content with.

It says right there it's to help fill groups. And the reward is for not queuing for the specific dungeons you want. The reason that's a rewardable activity is because the finder puts you anywhere you're needed, it prioritizes filling groups. If player isn't needed anywhere it will pick a dungeon at random. You get the reward for going where the finder needs to put you (the main priority of which is to help people find groups) over picking a specific dungeon or group of dungeons that you want to play.

They even call it the group finder.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

a tool designed to help you find other players to take on group content with.

It says right there it's to help fill groups. And the reward is for not queuing for the specific dungeons you want. The reason that's a rewardable activity is because the finder puts you anywhere you're needed, it prioritizes filling groups.

They even call it the group finder.

It says "to help you find other players to take on group content with". That is not the same thing as helping others to fill in their groups.

And of course it will group players together but nothing anywhere says how it prioritizes that or that the rewards are for helping others.

ETA It doesn't even matter how they prioritize or fill groups, they would still do it the same way in a non DLC queue as they do in a queue that has both, the same way they do now with Normal and Veteran queues.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

It says "to help you find other players to take on group content with". That is not the same thing as helping others to fill in their groups.

I don't really see a distinction, personally. If it's helping me fill in my group, then it's gonna help others fill in theirs too.

SilverBride wrote: »

ETA It doesn't even matter how they prioritize or fill groups, they would still do it the same way in a non DLC queue as they do in a queue that has both, the same way they do now with Normal and Veteran queues.

This part is true. Separate queues wouldn't change the priority. The reason that it would be a problem is it would split the playerbase, and the dlc dungeons already have a population issue. People don't want to play them unless they are being bribed.

Amottica

SilverBride wrote: »

The dungeon guide mentions using the activity finder to queue for a dungeon. It says:

The most common way to join a group and take on a dungeon is to use the Group & Activity Finder, a tool designed to help you find other players to take on group content with.

Because you are not queuing for a specific unique dungeon, you will be offered a daily bonus premium reward upon completion that includes Undaunted Exploration Supplies and XP.

It does not say that the purpose is to help others fill their groups or that the rewards are given for helping others fill their groups.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/guides/dungeonsguide

The simple fact is queuing for a random dungeon and a random group is a player is a choice. No one is forcing anyone. Nothing in what you cited from the game suggests otherwise.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This part is true. Separate queues wouldn't change the priority. The reason that it would be a problem is it would split the playerbase, and the dlc dungeons already have a population issue. People don't want to play them unless they are being bribed.

And that is the problem. Players don't want to do the DLC dungeons. Instead of trying to "bribe" players into it, maybe stop making them longer and harder in the first place.

Aislinna

If the quality of the players is the concern, form your own pre-made group and queue for the random dungeon to get your transmutes.

SilverBride

Amottica wrote: »

The simple fact is queuing for a random dungeon and a random group of players is a choice. No one is forcing anyone. Nothing in what you cited from the game suggests otherwise.

I never said anyone is being forced to queue. I said those who are queuing are forced into DLC dungeons whether they like it or not.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This part is true. Separate queues wouldn't change the priority. The reason that it would be a problem is it would split the playerbase, and the dlc dungeons already have a population issue. People don't want to play them unless they are being bribed.

And that is the problem. Players don't want to do the DLC dungeons. Instead of trying to "bribe" players into it, maybe stop making them longer and harder in the first place.

But, then the people who enjoy the hard things won't have stuff to do. Dungeons is meant to be where we get our challenge instead of Overland.

It's not like anyone's forced to join IMO. The only difference between queueing for specific dungeons and a random is the bonus reward. And there isn't anything bound and exclusive in the reward. People who don't want the bribe can queue just the normal base game dungeons. People who do want the bribe can help their fellow player and get paid for it.

Amottica

SilverBride wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The simple fact is queuing for a random dungeon and a random group of players is a choice. No one is forcing anyone. Nothing in what you cited from the game suggests otherwise.

I never said anyone is being forced to queue. I said those who are queuing are forced into DLC dungeons whether they like it or not.

SilverBride wrote: »

The bottom line is that many players do not want to run DLC dungeons. Why should these players be forced to run them anyway just so they can "fill in" for a group that does want to run them?

Someone questioned why should players be forced to run with others to fill a group. We are pointing out no one is forcing anyone to do anything they do not want to do.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This part is true. Separate queues wouldn't change the priority. The reason that it would be a problem is it would split the playerbase, and the dlc dungeons already have a population issue. People don't want to play them unless they are being bribed.

And that is the problem. Players don't want to do the DLC dungeons. Instead of trying to "bribe" players into it, maybe stop making them longer and harder in the first place.

But, then the people who enjoy the hard things won't have stuff to do. Dungeons is meant to be where we get our challenge instead of Overland.

There are veteran versions of all these dungeons and that wouldn't change, so those who want a challenge will still have it.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This part is true. Separate queues wouldn't change the priority. The reason that it would be a problem is it would split the playerbase, and the dlc dungeons already have a population issue. People don't want to play them unless they are being bribed.

And that is the problem. Players don't want to do the DLC dungeons. Instead of trying to "bribe" players into it, maybe stop making them longer and harder in the first place.

But, then the people who enjoy the hard things won't have stuff to do. Dungeons is meant to be where we get our challenge instead of Overland.

There are veteran versions of all these dungeons and that wouldn't change, so those who want a challenge will still have it.

Vet is different and would also be separated most likely. They wouldn't get a challenge if there's nobody to play with because the queue is too long.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This part is true. Separate queues wouldn't change the priority. The reason that it would be a problem is it would split the playerbase, and the dlc dungeons already have a population issue. People don't want to play them unless they are being bribed.

And that is the problem. Players don't want to do the DLC dungeons. Instead of trying to "bribe" players into it, maybe stop making them longer and harder in the first place.

But, then the people who enjoy the hard things won't have stuff to do. Dungeons is meant to be where we get our challenge instead of Overland.

There are veteran versions of all these dungeons and that wouldn't change, so those who want a challenge will still have it.

Vet is different and would also be separated most likely. They wouldn't get a challenge if there's nobody to play with because the queue is too long.

And this hits the point perfectly.

The XP and other rewards are not the purpose of the random dungeon reward but the carrot to help ensure there are people in the queue to help fill groups looking to do both random and specific dungeons. So restricting how many dungeons are available for the random dungeon defeats the purpose and intent of the random rewards, by definition.

Therefore, the DLCs are unlikely to be removed from the random dungeon queue unless Zenimax figures out a way to offer a superior reward (such as gold quality) for those willing to include the DLC dungeons in their queue.

That is the reality of the situation.

washbern

No one said to remove them from the rotation. The suggestion was to split the queue 4 ways instead of 2. The difference between modern dungeons and old school ones is too vast.

People will queue for all the random if the reward structure is figured out properly. I don't know why people are defending the current system that literally puts players in dungeons they can't complete.

tmbrinks

washbern wrote: »

No one said to remove them from the rotation. The suggestion was to split the queue 4 ways instead of 2. The difference between modern dungeons and old school ones is too vast.

People will queue for all the random if the reward structure is figured out properly. I don't know why people are defending the current system that literally puts players in dungeons they can't complete.

DPS sometimes already have to wait an hour+ for a dungeon. Splitting the queue further would exacerbate it to an extreme.

We are defending it because we don't want to see the further erosion of gameplay. Ever since the AwA debacle, I feel I now have to speak uo when I feel a change would negatively affect the game, so ZoS at least knows that not "everybody wants this" as they claimed with AwA.