I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

Bushido2513

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

What’s wrong in that ?

A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else

The player has put in time and effort and should be rewarded right ?

Besides we are talking about top 1% of the players here.

I don’t see a problem if they are unkillable or whatever

"A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else" who are at a lower skill level than him, I agree. A top end player on any class shouldn't dominate a top end player on another class just because their class is stronger.

That was my point. The line between making sorc good and making sorc OP is thin. The class has one of the best burst damage in the game, very high mobility with Streak, and good offensive heals. Buffing it to a point where I'm suddenly dominating another top tier player when we used to stalemate before the buff is problematic.

But isn’t that the whole point of buffing sorc?

A mediocre dk or nb can easily dominate a top tier sorc in open world pvp due to really weak or non existent defense

There will be an arcanist class in the future and then we shall have 3 classes which dominate sorc.

It’s easier to buff one class rather than expecting zos to nerf 3 classes.

I don't die to a mediocre dk or nb in openworld. I've dueled too many of them to know how to counter.

Idk how much dueling experience you have, so I'm just going to generalize. When you spend enough time dueling a variety of classes and builds, you learn the best way to counter them AND possible combos they can use to kill you.

The reality is, all players are very predictable (even top tier players). At a certain point, dueling becomes a game of rhythm where you and your opponent take turns trading blows and playing defensive. Whoever wins is the one that can disrupt that rhythm or have better damage.

I have dueled top tier DKs and NBs whom I've survived for a decent amount of time and even managed to stalemate or kill them several times. There is no reason for me to ever die to a mediocre DK or NB under any circumstances that isn't a straight up gank. What's going to happen if those mediocre DKs and NBs try to kill me is 1) I counter all their moves because I know how to by heart, and 2) I kill them.

This is the advantage of playing on a worse class. You die a lot more, so you compensate with better mechanical/movement skills and knowledge. You wouldn't need to compensate if you play on a class that wins all the time.

I was talking about outnumbered gameplay not dueling

A mediocre dk or a nb zergling poses significant problems even for a top tier sorc.

Depends on a few factors and what mediocre is defined as here.

Your worst threat in outnumbered is usually the full damage build player that knows when to pile on or that is communicating with other players to setup a burst but it also depends on build.

A dk or NB in a group that simply knows how to heal, has a damage oriented build, and can chain an attack or two to an ult is a threat. Though you would easily kill them 1v1.

That being said a top tier sorc knows how to keep range and be aware of the potential burst mechanics and possibility of a group.

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I killed several of them afterwards. I just wanted to show you a shortened version where I kited the NB and Warden without trouble.

Obviously I’m not saying sorc doesn’t need buffs but I wanted to point out that I don’t have issues against a mediocre NB or a DK in an outnumbered setting. They are usually very easy to predict and takes a little bit of outplaying to kill.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I killed several of them afterwards. I just wanted to show you a shortened version where I kited the NB and Warden without trouble.

Obviously I’m not saying sorc doesn’t need buffs but I wanted to point out that I don’t have issues against a mediocre NB or a DK in an outnumbered setting. They are usually very easy to predict and takes a little bit of outplaying to kill.

This makes more sense which is what I predicted from seeing the short clip.

TechMaybeHic

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I had a similar situation twice last night on a Templar who has plenty of healing and tankiness. We were laughing in voice coms as my groups intention the one time; was to pull a Zerg off our keeps, and they all responded. I got sent solo and chased by 5, then 10, then 15 as the time passes. Then 1 tea bagged me when I finally dropped lol

My struggle is when I get them isolated, finishing them off because LOS goes both ways. When it's DKs and NBs; there's not 5 seconds of standing your ground outnumbered like that. You get maybe 5 seconds if to burst 1 that over extended

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I had a similar situation twice last night on a Templar who has plenty of healing and tankiness. We were laughing in voice coms as my groups intention the one time; was to pull a Zerg off our keeps, and they all responded. I got sent solo and chased by 5, then 10, then 15 as the time passes. Then 1 tea bagged me when I finally dropped lol

My struggle is when I get them isolated, finishing them off because LOS goes both ways. When it's DKs and NBs; there's not 5 seconds of standing your ground outnumbered like that. You get maybe 5 seconds if to burst 1 that over extended

Yeah it's easier to burst a group on stamsorc depending on the setup.

On magsorc you it's helpful if you run them around a bit and can isolate them when buffs are down. Of course you usually want to work your way up from weakest to strongest.

But it's also knowing which one can even be bursted sometimes due to the amount of recovery/mitigation some classes and sets give. Worse comes to worse overload desyncs maybe? Lol

TechMaybeHic

There was a sorc inone of those groups as well as that stupid flappy bird somehow mange to get in the way a lot

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

There was a sorc inone of those groups as well as that stupid flappy bird somehow mange to get in the way a lot

Flappy bird is an icon for sorc design useful in specific scenarios but built by around abandoned or outdated themes in ESO.

I'd gladly sacrifice the bird for a more overall useful ability though I understand how this would hurt certain gameplay styles. Why couldn't the bird have had a pvp morph perhaps?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I killed several of them afterwards. I just wanted to show you a shortened version where I kited the NB and Warden without trouble.

Obviously I’m not saying sorc doesn’t need buffs but I wanted to point out that I don’t have issues against a mediocre NB or a DK in an outnumbered setting. They are usually very easy to predict and takes a little bit of outplaying to kill.

This makes more sense which is what I predicted from seeing the short clip.

Yea, I managed to run up the 3rd floor of that tower after streaking to the other side and dropped a few of them when they strayed away from their healers.

Tower fights are usually very advantageous for me and I can often kite up to 12 players before dying. I won’t be able to kill them but it’s good to test the class’ survivability limits. With a burst heal it would be very very hard to kill a sorc imo.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I killed several of them afterwards. I just wanted to show you a shortened version where I kited the NB and Warden without trouble.

Obviously I’m not saying sorc doesn’t need buffs but I wanted to point out that I don’t have issues against a mediocre NB or a DK in an outnumbered setting. They are usually very easy to predict and takes a little bit of outplaying to kill.

This makes more sense which is what I predicted from seeing the short clip.

Yea, I managed to run up the 3rd floor of that tower after streaking to the other side and dropped a few of them when they strayed away from their healers.

Tower fights are usually very advantageous for me and I can often kite up to 12 players before dying. I won’t be able to kill them but it’s good to test the class’ survivability limits. With a burst heal it would be very very hard to kill a sorc imo.

I'm trying to imagine what I think a sorc with coag would be like. Honestly I don't like it, seems too much like the rest. What if in addition to what it does now crit surge also added maybe lifesteal or some other mechanic to boost healing so that healing is still linked to damage?

Or just make the bird harder to kill?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I killed several of them afterwards. I just wanted to show you a shortened version where I kited the NB and Warden without trouble.

Obviously I’m not saying sorc doesn’t need buffs but I wanted to point out that I don’t have issues against a mediocre NB or a DK in an outnumbered setting. They are usually very easy to predict and takes a little bit of outplaying to kill.

This makes more sense which is what I predicted from seeing the short clip.

Yea, I managed to run up the 3rd floor of that tower after streaking to the other side and dropped a few of them when they strayed away from their healers.

Tower fights are usually very advantageous for me and I can often kite up to 12 players before dying. I won’t be able to kill them but it’s good to test the class’ survivability limits. With a burst heal it would be very very hard to kill a sorc imo.

I'm trying to imagine what I think a sorc with coag would be like. Honestly I don't like it, seems too much like the rest. What if in addition to what it does now crit surge also added maybe lifesteal or some other mechanic to boost healing so that healing is still linked to damage?

Or just make the bird harder to kill?

@Bushido2513

It would be too strong lol. This is why I am conflicted between wanting a burst heal and also not wanting a burst heal. On one hand I would love for the class to receive these burst heals, but on the other hand I know the potential for sorc to be just as tanky, if not tankier than other classes is also there.

A nerf to sorc's mobility will definitely need to happen if sorc ever gets a burst heal equivalent to other classes'. People often undermine Streak but it's honestly one of the best defensive abilities in the game. In open space Streak is countered pretty easily with a gap closer but when you're in a tower or areas with high and low ground, Streak is just too good. 1 Streak and I'm already out of sight of the gap closer spammer, and 1 Streak can land me on a higher ground where only the gap closers can reach (which there are not many and if they ever try to gap close you like that then it's an easy kill).

Like for example watch these 2 clips where I juked a whole stack of people with Streak:

https://youtu.be/Zm105LzdiJ0

https://youtu.be/DhXPk1PyU0M

The 2nd clip was hard to pull off because I Streaked from 3rd floor of an inner keep to 2nd floor. If you know where the spot is it's pretty much impossible to jump down unless you change direction with Streak lol. It was also a difficult maneuver since I could die if I didn't execute it properly.

StaticWave

As much as I want to complain about Sorc being weak defensively, it's still one of the top tier classes for OW. I was the designated forward camp placer for my small scale group because I was usually the last person alive. Despite having weaker heals compared to them (they play DK and Templar), the ability to dart in and out of the fight at will is what allowed me to live the longest, not because I'm better than them at surviving.

I can only imagine it being nigh-unkillable if it ever gets a true burst heal without having any nerfs to mobility lol.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

It would be too strong lol. This is why I am conflicted between wanting a burst heal and also not wanting a burst heal. On one hand I would love for the class to receive these burst heals, but on the other hand I know the potential for sorc to be just as tanky, if not tankier than other classes is also there.

A nerf to sorc's mobility will definitely need to happen if sorc ever gets a burst heal equivalent to other classes'. People often undermine Streak but it's honestly one of the best defensive abilities in the game. In open space Streak is countered pretty easily with a gap closer but when you're in a tower or areas with high and low ground, Streak is just too good. 1 Streak and I'm already out of sight of the gap closer spammer, and 1 Streak can land me on a higher ground where only the gap closers can reach (which there are not many and if they ever try to gap close you like that then it's an easy kill).

Like for example watch these 2 clips where I juked a whole stack of people with Streak:

https://youtu.be/Zm105LzdiJ0

https://youtu.be/DhXPk1PyU0M

The 2nd clip was hard to pull off because I Streaked from 3rd floor of an inner keep to 2nd floor. If you know where the spot is it's pretty much impossible to jump down unless you change direction with Streak lol. It was also a difficult maneuver since I could die if I didn't execute it properly.

A Coag like burst heal on sorc would definitely be too strong, but a standard reliable burst heal would be just fine.

I say this as someone who played magsorc back in U33 (when DK was arguably even stronger than it is now) when resto was in a good spot. Running resto back bar and using blessings of protection as my burst heal, radiating as my main HoT and the class felt in a good spot, not OP, just fun to play and able to hold its own, similar to how warden is currently where its strong but not OP now that wall of frost immobilization has been removed.

As for sorcs mobility, maybe its a stamsorc thing, but magsorc just doesn't feel anywhere near as fast as it used to be with the steady speed creep that's been occurring over the years. Sorc (mag especially) still has to choose between the 2 expedition buffs (unless you try to fit in RaT or elusive mist, which usually entails giving up significant damage).

Speaking of which, Mist form is very comparable to BoL in terms of gap creation/closing, it has its positives and negatives to BoL, same as shields do for healing, but it is certainly a comparable movement ability that has only added to the speed creep and made sorc (mag especially) feel even more sluggish than it used to be, so I doubt a nerf to mobility would be required if sorc was given a burst heal.

Only time I could see sorc mobility being nerfed is if they went ahead and mass nerfed the generic mobility options in the game (expedition buffs, swift trait, celerity CP, mist form, wild hunt, etc) which would do more to harm to the overall game.

Honestly, if they won't give a proper in class burst heal to sorcs, then at least revert the harsh nerfs to resto staves done in U34 and implement diminishing returns on HoT stacking to prevent radiating from becoming too strong again.

That's probably where the main issue lies with sorc, classes overcome their shortcomings by utilizing weapon/world skills, so while other classes can easily fill their lack of damage, lack of utility or lack of mitigation, via those out of class abilities that are still very strong, the fact that there's no strong alternative to resto staves in world skills for proper healing has created quite the problematic imbalance for sorcerer.

The nerf to resto staves in U34 essentially made it to where sorc can no longer try to fix its class issues via weapon/world skills (vigor is good, but not enough for 99% of players), while all the other classes can still attempt to fix their shortcomings via these other skill lines which have only remained the same or gotten stronger over time.

Honestly, fixing sorc for PvP, for the majority of players, might be inherently as simple as reverting the U34 resto nerfs and changing HoT stacking to have diminishing returns in PvP via battle spirit (like it should have been done originally back then because ever since that nerf went through, radiating spam just got switched to radiating + vigor spam which only made the game, and performance, worse).

Turtle_Bot

Either way, I would like to be able to at least see what the class would be like in the current game with access to a proper burst heal and then decide balance from there.

I think you'll find that unless it's given an OP burst heal like coag or polar winds, the class will likely stay at its current level (sitting 3rd/4th alongside wardens), maybe raise up by 1 tier (4th to equal 3rd) for lower skilled players to be on par with warden, but would still be behind DK and NB in their current forms.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I killed several of them afterwards. I just wanted to show you a shortened version where I kited the NB and Warden without trouble.

Obviously I’m not saying sorc doesn’t need buffs but I wanted to point out that I don’t have issues against a mediocre NB or a DK in an outnumbered setting. They are usually very easy to predict and takes a little bit of outplaying to kill.

This makes more sense which is what I predicted from seeing the short clip.

Yea, I managed to run up the 3rd floor of that tower after streaking to the other side and dropped a few of them when they strayed away from their healers.

Tower fights are usually very advantageous for me and I can often kite up to 12 players before dying. I won’t be able to kill them but it’s good to test the class’ survivability limits. With a burst heal it would be very very hard to kill a sorc imo.

I'm trying to imagine what I think a sorc with coag would be like. Honestly I don't like it, seems too much like the rest. What if in addition to what it does now crit surge also added maybe lifesteal or some other mechanic to boost healing so that healing is still linked to damage?

Or just make the bird harder to kill?

@Bushido2513

It would be too strong lol. This is why I am conflicted between wanting a burst heal and also not wanting a burst heal. On one hand I would love for the class to receive these burst heals, but on the other hand I know the potential for sorc to be just as tanky, if not tankier than other classes is also there.

A nerf to sorc's mobility will definitely need to happen if sorc ever gets a burst heal equivalent to other classes'. People often undermine Streak but it's honestly one of the best defensive abilities in the game. In open space Streak is countered pretty easily with a gap closer but when you're in a tower or areas with high and low ground, Streak is just too good. 1 Streak and I'm already out of sight of the gap closer spammer, and 1 Streak can land me on a higher ground where only the gap closers can reach (which there are not many and if they ever try to gap close you like that then it's an easy kill).

Like for example watch these 2 clips where I juked a whole stack of people with Streak:

https://youtu.be/Zm105LzdiJ0

https://youtu.be/DhXPk1PyU0M

The 2nd clip was hard to pull off because I Streaked from 3rd floor of an inner keep to 2nd floor. If you know where the spot is it's pretty much impossible to jump down unless you change direction with Streak lol. It was also a difficult maneuver since I could die if I didn't execute it properly.

@StaticWave

Those are some very well done streaks! And yes if you had a burst heal that was say like coag it would be too easy to then heal to full then come back around.

I almost wish they hadn't changed the other morph to stop intercepting projectiles the way it used to.

I'd even be in if they tied some type of heal or should to that because then you could trade offense for defense if you wanted.

Thoughts?


I see either something like that, or a buff to crit surge healing mechanic, or an instant cast burst heal with less of a tooltip than others.

Or maybe a ward with a minor hot/heal built in?

Bushido2513

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Either way, I would like to be able to at least see what the class would be like in the current game with access to a proper burst heal and then decide balance from there.

I think you'll find that unless it's given an OP burst heal like coag or polar winds, the class will likely stay at its current level (sitting 3rd/4th alongside wardens), maybe raise up by 1 tier (4th to equal 3rd) for lower skilled players to be on par with warden, but would still be behind DK and NB in their current forms.

That makes sense since it would just increase survivability at the cost of a gcd. So in a fight where sorc might die they would instead live but if nothing else charges then it's either a draw or just a case of who makes the critical error first.

This at least seems more fair then the current situation where you're spending more time making up for sub par heals.

I still wish they would modify the damage kit. I think the aoe execute is a step in that direction but not the one I was looking for.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I killed several of them afterwards. I just wanted to show you a shortened version where I kited the NB and Warden without trouble.

Obviously I’m not saying sorc doesn’t need buffs but I wanted to point out that I don’t have issues against a mediocre NB or a DK in an outnumbered setting. They are usually very easy to predict and takes a little bit of outplaying to kill.

This makes more sense which is what I predicted from seeing the short clip.

Yea, I managed to run up the 3rd floor of that tower after streaking to the other side and dropped a few of them when they strayed away from their healers.

Tower fights are usually very advantageous for me and I can often kite up to 12 players before dying. I won’t be able to kill them but it’s good to test the class’ survivability limits. With a burst heal it would be very very hard to kill a sorc imo.

I'm trying to imagine what I think a sorc with coag would be like. Honestly I don't like it, seems too much like the rest. What if in addition to what it does now crit surge also added maybe lifesteal or some other mechanic to boost healing so that healing is still linked to damage?

Or just make the bird harder to kill?

@Bushido2513

It would be too strong lol. This is why I am conflicted between wanting a burst heal and also not wanting a burst heal. On one hand I would love for the class to receive these burst heals, but on the other hand I know the potential for sorc to be just as tanky, if not tankier than other classes is also there.

A nerf to sorc's mobility will definitely need to happen if sorc ever gets a burst heal equivalent to other classes'. People often undermine Streak but it's honestly one of the best defensive abilities in the game. In open space Streak is countered pretty easily with a gap closer but when you're in a tower or areas with high and low ground, Streak is just too good. 1 Streak and I'm already out of sight of the gap closer spammer, and 1 Streak can land me on a higher ground where only the gap closers can reach (which there are not many and if they ever try to gap close you like that then it's an easy kill).

Like for example watch these 2 clips where I juked a whole stack of people with Streak:

https://youtu.be/Zm105LzdiJ0

https://youtu.be/DhXPk1PyU0M

The 2nd clip was hard to pull off because I Streaked from 3rd floor of an inner keep to 2nd floor. If you know where the spot is it's pretty much impossible to jump down unless you change direction with Streak lol. It was also a difficult maneuver since I could die if I didn't execute it properly.

@StaticWave

Those are some very well done streaks! And yes if you had a burst heal that was say like coag it would be too easy to then heal to full then come back around.

I almost wish they hadn't changed the other morph to stop intercepting projectiles the way it used to.

I'd even be in if they tied some type of heal or should to that because then you could trade offense for defense if you wanted.

Thoughts?


I see either something like that, or a buff to crit surge healing mechanic, or an instant cast burst heal with less of a tooltip than others.

Or maybe a ward with a minor hot/heal built in?

Well it’s good that you mentioned Surge and another instant cast burst heal with a lower tooltip

I actually suggested changes to make Crit Surge and Dark Deal more reliable several times on the forums. I wanted Crit Surge to have a 100% proc chance but with a reduced tooltip. It would essentially turn Crit Surge into a medium HoT with Major Brutality/Sorcery. The value can be halved, or whatever, but the proc chance needs to be 100%.

For Dark Deal, I also suggested one morph be an instant cast with the same tooltip on live, but reduced resource return. The resource return could be halved or even 3/4 of the live version, but it would then be primarily used as a burst heal that’s not too strong. The other morph would retain the channel and give both resources back, but at a slightly reduced value. The dominant resource would be instant, and the off-resource would be returned over 20s.

What do you think?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Well it’s good that you mentioned Surge and another instant cast burst heal with a lower tooltip

I actually suggested changes to make Crit Surge and Dark Deal more reliable several times on the forums. I wanted Crit Surge to have a 100% proc chance but with a reduced tooltip. It would essentially turn Crit Surge into a medium HoT with Major Brutality/Sorcery. The value can be halved, or whatever, but the proc chance needs to be 100%.

For Dark Deal, I also suggested one morph be an instant cast with the same tooltip on live, but reduced resource return. The resource return could be halved or even 3/4 of the live version, but it would then be primarily used as a burst heal that’s not too strong. The other morph would retain the channel and give both resources back, but at a slightly reduced value. The dominant resource would be instant, and the off-resource would be returned over 20s.

What do you think?

@StaticWave The only problem I'm thinking of with crit surge is that it might not blend well with ranged sorc play because you don't naturally have dots and it won't be active when you stop to perform a heal or anything else non damaging. Now on a stamsorc it would be pretty nice because you would likely always be hitting someone with a dot or just with hurricane. You could boost the tooltip but then that would make it possibly too strong for stamsorc I think.

The argument could be made that if you're at range you have more chances to possibly do damage without it being heavily responded to though so even if you're light attacking the heal would help though the tooltip would have to be carefully though out.


I think for dark deal It's a good idea to split the morphs between channeled and not channeled though I would probably want the resource returned/spent to be based on your dominant/non-dominant respectively. It would just be with one morph you get more of a heal and the other more resources. The same as you said I just want the resource return to be based on dominant rather than something like both or one or both but one gets less of both.

But if they had trouble coding it I would accept the current model where the morph with more healing cost mag and gives more resources and the other morph cost stam and heals more with less of both resources returned.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Well it’s good that you mentioned Surge and another instant cast burst heal with a lower tooltip

I actually suggested changes to make Crit Surge and Dark Deal more reliable several times on the forums. I wanted Crit Surge to have a 100% proc chance but with a reduced tooltip. It would essentially turn Crit Surge into a medium HoT with Major Brutality/Sorcery. The value can be halved, or whatever, but the proc chance needs to be 100%.

For Dark Deal, I also suggested one morph be an instant cast with the same tooltip on live, but reduced resource return. The resource return could be halved or even 3/4 of the live version, but it would then be primarily used as a burst heal that’s not too strong. The other morph would retain the channel and give both resources back, but at a slightly reduced value. The dominant resource would be instant, and the off-resource would be returned over 20s.

What do you think?

@StaticWave The only problem I'm thinking of with crit surge is that it might not blend well with ranged sorc play because you don't naturally have dots and it won't be active when you stop to perform a heal or anything else non damaging. Now on a stamsorc it would be pretty nice because you would likely always be hitting someone with a dot or just with hurricane. You could boost the tooltip but then that would make it possibly too strong for stamsorc I think.

The argument could be made that if you're at range you have more chances to possibly do damage without it being heavily responded to though so even if you're light attacking the heal would help though the tooltip would have to be carefully though out.


I think for dark deal It's a good idea to split the morphs between channeled and not channeled though I would probably want the resource returned/spent to be based on your dominant/non-dominant respectively. It would just be with one morph you get more of a heal and the other more resources. The same as you said I just want the resource return to be based on dominant rather than something like both or one or both but one gets less of both.

But if they had trouble coding it I would accept the current model where the morph with more healing cost mag and gives more resources and the other morph cost stam and heals more with less of both resources returned.

You actually do have a DoT if you use Ele Sus as it applies Burning every 6 seconds and that will proc Surge too.

It’s a 32s utility skill so I don’t think it would be ideal to turn the ability into a pure defensive HoT as you would most likely have its duration reduced significantly and you’d have to recast it a lot. Surge with 100% uptime is basically equivalent to Leeching Strikes or Green Lotus, but better as it can proc off any damage, not just light/heavy attacks.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

You actually do have a DoT if you use Ele Sus as it applies Burning every 6 seconds and that will proc Surge too.

It’s a 32s utility skill so I don’t think it would be ideal to turn the ability into a pure defensive HoT as you would most likely have its duration reduced significantly and you’d have to recast it a lot. Surge with 100% uptime is basically equivalent to Leeching Strikes or Green Lotus, but better as it can proc off any damage, not just light/heavy attacks.

Well that's why I was saying naturally because ele sus was a change that came about not too long ago if I recall and who knows what it my get changed to in the future. I would like to work off the ideas of the classic mag sorc kit, which didn't and might not always include that morph ele sus.

Well it would be like leaching vines and basically apply minor life steal though with maybe an enhanced tooltip. I'm ok with the idea of sorc getting healing from being offensive. I just don't maybe see it scaling as well with multiple attackers.

Yes you can put ele sus on all of them but again I just wouldn't want to rely on that always being the way the morph works plus this would shine overall more on stam sorc vs mag sorc I think.

It's doable, just might not balance as easily between both versions of sorc.

PhoenixGrey

I extensively played BG’s on my sorc over the past few days. It definitely is a bottom tier pvp class. My list of buffs feel pretty justified

I see 98% of sorcs running Mara ‘s balm. Can’t blame them as sorc has non existent defense without it. Of course it looks like a top tier class with the set but most classes do just as good with it. There are a few more builds which crutch on masters duel wield and really go out of their way to cheese it.

Dk and Nb don’t have to crutch on one set to be viable which is exactly how it supposed to be. I m glad players are having fun on them and not forced to wear brain dead sets for survivability

I believe players who think sorc is in a good place are unable to separate class skills from the sets. I would like to know their opinion on the class when sets like rallying cry and Mara’s are deleted from the game.

I have dm’ed a lot of top tier sorcs who play bgs on pc na and my opinion is based off this as well. If you just play CP cyrodil and also think sorc is fine then I have not dm’ed you as your opinion on class balance is probably sandbagged by cp and incompetent players which efficiently hides the deficiencies of the class and makes your opinion irrelevant

PhoenixGrey

My open challenge to the people who play only cp and think mag sorc is fine can join me in bgs without wearing Mara’s or bleed builds and see how they stack against other competent players

Make sure to play on weekends in prime time so that you play against non potatoes and make sure you have a high mmr.

Bushido2513

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

My open challenge to the people who play only cp and think mag sorc is fine can join me in bgs without wearing Mara’s or bleed builds and see how they stack against other competent players

Make sure to play on weekends in prime time so that you play against non potatoes and make sure you have a high mmr.

Well honestly a lot of what you are saying has already been covered and most agree that defense/heals would be fine to buff. The last point of disagreement was really that sorc does or doesn't have good damage. Even I came to agree that the damage is good in its own way but that I'd like the kit to have a way to be more well rounded without being OP.

I could name other builds for mag sorc that would work well in bgs when played by a higher tier sorc but no matter what I name it's mostly going to come down to crutching for defense which is what sorc lacks.

Defense aside a good sorc has a fairly good chance of killing other players in bgs if the teams or just those two players are of even caliber.

StaticWave

I'm pretty sure I've stated many times that I want defensive buffs for sorc in the form of a burst heal or better access to crit chance to make use of Crit Surge. Other than that I don't really think sorc needs more buffs as its damage is fine and can be top tier if in the right build. This is evident when I play bleed builds on my sorc as the damage is competitive with other top tier classes but the healing is far behind.

StaticWave

Sorc's currently severely lacking in the healing department so a fix to that would bring the class in line with other classes. It would also allow a sorc to wear 3 damage sets instead of having to crutch on Mara's Balm and lose out on a 5-piece damage set whereas DKs and NBs can wear 3 damage sets and still have good survivability.

I currently play with ~300 ping so the weakness of not having a burst heal is further exaggerated as I can't reliably defend myself with block/dodging anymore. It's really a pain and I'm losing fights to people that I have beaten when I still had 100 ping, but it is what it is.

@PhoenixGrey I've seen you in several BGs last week. I'm not disagreeing with you about sorc having weak defense. In fact I've stated many times in this thread that I would love for sorc to receive some defensive buffs.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc's currently severely lacking in the healing department so a fix to that would bring the class in line with other classes. It would also allow a sorc to wear 3 damage sets instead of having to crutch on Mara's Balm and lose out on a 5-piece damage set whereas DKs and NBs can wear 3 damage sets and still have good survivability.

I currently play with ~300 ping so the weakness of not having a burst heal is further exaggerated as I can't reliably defend myself with block/dodging anymore. It's really a pain and I'm losing fights to people that I have beaten when I still had 100 ping, but it is what it is.

@PhoenixGrey I've seen you in several BGs last week. I'm not disagreeing with you about sorc having weak defense. In fact I've stated many times in this thread that I would love for sorc to receive some defensive buffs.

Ideally anything less than a 20k hardened ward will not cut it for me atleast while facing competent players. And I would also need a similar buff for the other light armor shield and have my old BOL back. In case you haven’t noticed the vamp skill line got a better version of BOL and I don’t see players making a fuss out of it like they did for BOL.

Ok I m gonna rant here
Problem is most players think my buff list is outrageous. My argument always will be that you have dk, nb and the arcanist class which will be beyond outrageous in the future.

The difference between me and others who claim to be better and more knowledgeable in this game is that I don’t live in a fantasy world where zos will spend time balancing 3 classes instead of buffing one.

Also if I were ZOS I wouldn’t want to upset a player base who have gotten used to their OP dk or nb nor create a new arcanist class which is not as OP as dk or nb. Upsetting players in the name of balance causes ZOS to lose $$ and lose more of their already dwindling pvp player base.

At least if you ask me i am glad to see most players in bgs on dk’s and play open world on nb. If those 2 classes were balanced I wonder if those players would even pvp in the first place. If zos really cared about their player base they would not try to fix things which don’t need to be fixed.

Again the point of playing a video game is to have fun. There is no fun in playing a z tier class and making 1vX videos against z tier players and then claiming all is good with the class.

I have played this game long enough to perfectly know that there is a problem with the class when I cannot play outnumbered against the same players who I had no problem with before. And you can’t make sorc go from z tier to s tier without outrageous buffs. You can always justify a buff by raising the god damn ceiling

Bushido2513

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Ideally anything less than a 20k hardened ward will not cut it for me atleast while facing competent players.

@PhoenixGrey

If you're talking after battle spirit this sounds possibly excessive. I say that because I understand that some burst heals can reach close to similar numbers once a few factors are met but having such a large shield with no need for the same factors being met seems a bit over tuned. I certainly agree with buffing the sorc shield though.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I And I would also need a similar buff for the other light armor shield and have my old BOL back. In case you haven’t noticed the vamp skill line got a better version of BOL and I don’t see players making a fuss out of it like they did for BOL.

I could see a buff for light armor skill line if it wasn't too big. I think overall some mag classes do need this to play more effectively with more pieces of light armor. Again, it shouldn't be too big of a boost though or stacking might become an issues. I can also agree on the BOL change as they really nerfed it for no good reason in my opinion.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Ok I m gonna rant here
Problem is most players think my buff list is outrageous. My argument always will be that you have dk, nb and the arcanist class which will be beyond outrageous in the future.

That's not exactly true because we've also seen these classes pulled down when ZOS finds a need for it for whatever reason. DK was at at low level for some time before it was hit with repeated buffs. NB is a bit different because even at the low level it was still at least decently strong but still it did get nerfs for a bit at one time.

Yes Arcanist will be op when it comes out but that's just the usual ZOS making sales. Once enough revenue has been made it will get a bit of the nerf bat too though granted it will be over multiple patches I'm guessing.

Every class has rotated in and out of the high point though I will say sorc has been out of that rotation for a noticeable amount of time, still the rotation does exist. I remember when templar was OP, when warden was even more of an aoe killing machine, and even necro was up there for a bit though not as prominently as others or at least not for the same reasons.

If nothing else ZOS possibly does this just to keep each main rotating in and out and to give people a reason to hop back in or in in general. Sorc is overdue, I'll give you that.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

The difference between me and others who claim to be better and more knowledgeable in this game is that I don’t live in a fantasy world where zos will spend time balancing 3 classes instead of buffing one.

So it's clear they don't exactly balance as much as they make changes. They might not balance those classes but it's not to say that they won't decide that burst heals need to all function in a certain lower range which will appear as a nerf to all classes with over performing burst heals. This has happened in the past when they decided to have standards around certain things. So they might not balance the three but they may decide to nerf parts of all 3 in the name of standards.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Also if I were ZOS I wouldn’t want to upset a player base who have gotten used to their OP dk or nb nor create a new arcanist class which is not as OP as dk or nb. Upsetting players in the name of balance causes ZOS to lose $$ and lose more of their already dwindling pvp player base.

Actually ZOS does stuff like this all the time in regards to choices that upset the player base. Some changes are more subtle and in a better order but really they have proven they will do whatever they like even if it upsets the player base and we beg them not to. Now NB is weird because some person or group seems to be protecting that class. But even if they change it NB will still always be the tool for players that just like cloak and stealth attacks. Nerfing DK at this point could be seen by a lot of players as a good move so yes you might *** off some players but there will also be a number of players that will be excited by the prospect of a less boring and stagnant dk filled battlefield.

ZOS knows how it works in terms of sales. They understand they will always upset someone, they just need to make sure they make an equal or larger group happier at the same time.

I've talked about this before but player base isn't always matched up with sales. So you don't have to always have a large player base to have good sales overall. As an example there are those that let subs run and forget about them, those that hop on buy some crowns, do a few things then just go play something else, things that push sales for a period of time like oakensoul/arcanist, etc.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

At least if you ask me i am glad to see most players in bgs on dk’s and play open world on nb. If those 2 classes were balanced I wonder if those players would even pvp in the first place. If zos really cared about their player base they would not try to fix things which don’t need to be fixed.

Yup some would actually. Of course some people just want a pure power fantasy so they play on the strongest class they can find. There are also those that play because they enjoy the game with friends, group play, playing a certain class, etc.

When warden got buffs for mag warden it wasn't exactly OP though more powerful and arguably annoying. I saw so many wardens who played after that because it was finally viable to play a mag warden spec. So sometimes it's not that the class needs to be op but just playable in general and actually fun to play.

I would say people would rather have a garage full of sports cars they can hop in on any given day depending on mood vs 4 honda civics and 1 lambo and one ferarri. Boredom also kills player base.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Again the point of playing a video game is to have fun. There is no fun in playing a z tier class and making 1vX videos against z tier players and then claiming all is good with the class.

I have played this game long enough to perfectly know that there is a problem with the class when I cannot play outnumbered against the same players who I had no problem with before. And you can’t make sorc go from z tier to s tier without outrageous buffs. You can always justify a buff by raising the god damn ceiling

Well we all at this point pretty much agree defense needs a buff. I want to see the damage kit changed to be more interesting but not outright buffed exactly.

DK has become a very easy class to play. Sorc currently and has for a while now required skill to do well and enjoy. I want sorc to do better against other classes but I don't want it to get buffed to the point where the gameplay becomes less and less rewarding in a law of diminishing returns way.

I don't want to be on a DK reskinned as a sorc is all I'm saying. That would be fun for a minute but have me being as bored as when I'm on DK.

Melzo

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I extensively played BG’s on my sorc over the past few days. It definitely is a bottom tier pvp class. My list of buffs feel pretty justified

I see 98% of sorcs running Mara ‘s balm. Can’t blame them as sorc has non existent defense without it. Of course it looks like a top tier class with the set but most classes do just as good with it. There are a few more builds which crutch on masters duel wield and really go out of their way to cheese it.

Dk and Nb don’t have to crutch on one set to be viable which is exactly how it supposed to be. I m glad players are having fun on them and not forced to wear brain dead sets for survivability

I believe players who think sorc is in a good place are unable to separate class skills from the sets. I would like to know their opinion on the class when sets like rallying cry and Mara’s are deleted from the game.

I have dm’ed a lot of top tier sorcs who play bgs on pc na and my opinion is based off this as well. If you just play CP cyrodil and also think sorc is fine then I have not dm’ed you as your opinion on class balance is probably sandbagged by cp and incompetent players which efficiently hides the deficiencies of the class and makes your opinion irrelevant

The skill that gives healing through critical hits heals for 3500. In pvp, this skill heals for 1700. My pet heals 500 per second. And mortal coil heals 500 per second. Vigor heals 9-10 thousand in 5 seconds. Here you can add mara and passive. In pvp 1 against one with my necromancer, I lose to the sorcerer in terms of healing and damage. The sorcerer has a fairly high healing. If he has mara, then he is unkillable. It's funny that you are talking nonsense about the fact that the sorcerer is weak. Too often I see the score of sorcerers 16-0 on high mmr bg. Since the vampire cloud was changed, I've been hitting 4k blastbones. Ridiculous damage given that the sorcerer deals that much damage with a spam ability. I tried the new snake set to use to cut hot healing but the sorcerer's hot healing heals more than the oblivion damage from this set. The maximum that you can complain about is direct healing, but why then do other classes need just do ?? After the next buff of the sorcerer and the nerf of the necromancer, I will delete the game. Because I'm tired of playing like that.

Bushido2513

Melzo wrote: »

@Melzo

The skill that gives healing through critical hits heals for 3500. In pvp, this skill heals for 1700. My pet heals 500 per second. And mortal coil heals 500 per second. Vigor heals 9-10 thousand in 5 seconds. Here you can add mara and passive. In pvp 1 against one with my necromancer, I lose to the sorcerer in terms of healing and damage.

Your experiences are your own, I can't really dispute that however.

Necro has multiple advantages on sorc regarding healing and overall defense.

Major protection on demand, skills that reduce damage and buff healing just for being slotted, a burst heal that gives you resistances, passives that support defenses and healing, etc

Damage is another thing that depends a lot on the spec you play but survival is there either way.

Melzo wrote: »

The sorcerer has a fairly high healing.

With what skills? Crit surge literally depends on aggressive attacking and crit chance. Dark feel is ok but can be hit with bash or crushing shock at range and doesn't actually scale all that much like other heals. It's certainly nothing special at all in terms of a heal.

Melzo wrote: »

If he has mara, then he is unkillable.

This set doesn't magically work any better for sorc than any other class. You could put it on and arguably get more benefit because you have access to more defensive buffs and skills.

Melzo wrote: »

It's funny that you are talking nonsense about the fact that the sorcerer is weak. Too often I see the score of sorcerers 16-0 on high mmr bg.

Because of the nature of sorc to be and to move around the battlefield fast and basically hit and run they have easier access to finish off people in a big even if they weren't the ones doing most of the damage. Templar beam is very similar if not even better. Sorc has long been a good kill stealer I'm bgs.

Melzo wrote: »

Ridiculous damage given that the sorcerer deals that much damage with a spam ability.

There's too much to really have to guess here. Sets being worn, penetration/damage, debuffs being applied. It's not always the easiest class to play but the damage is there if you know how to build into it.

Melzo

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

@Melzo

The skill that gives healing through critical hits heals for 3500. In pvp, this skill heals for 1700. My pet heals 500 per second. And mortal coil heals 500 per second. Vigor heals 9-10 thousand in 5 seconds. Here you can add mara and passive. In pvp 1 against one with my necromancer, I lose to the sorcerer in terms of healing and damage.

Your experiences are your own, I can't really dispute that however.

Necro has multiple advantages on sorc regarding healing and overall defense.

Major protection on demand, skills that reduce damage and buff healing just for being slotted, a burst heal that gives you resistances, passives that support defenses and healing, etc

Damage is another thing that depends a lot on the spec you play but survival is there either way.

Melzo wrote: »

The sorcerer has a fairly high healing.

With what skills? Crit surge literally depends on aggressive attacking and crit chance. Dark feel is ok but can be hit with bash or crushing shock at range and doesn't actually scale all that much like other heals. It's certainly nothing special at all in terms of a heal.

Melzo wrote: »

If he has mara, then he is unkillable.

This set doesn't magically work any better for sorc than any other class. You could put it on and arguably get more benefit because you have access to more defensive buffs and skills.

Melzo wrote: »

It's funny that you are talking nonsense about the fact that the sorcerer is weak. Too often I see the score of sorcerers 16-0 on high mmr bg.

Because of the nature of sorc to be and to move around the battlefield fast and basically hit and run they have easier access to finish off people in a big even if they weren't the ones doing most of the damage. Templar beam is very similar if not even better. Sorc has long been a good kill stealer I'm bgs.

Melzo wrote: »

Ridiculous damage given that the sorcerer deals that much damage with a spam ability.

There's too much to really have to guess here. Sets being worn, penetration/damage, debuffs being applied. It's not always the easiest class to play but the damage is there if you know how to build into it.

Point your finger at at least one necromancer using the skill to get 10 percent protection. 50% percent of a necromancer's skills are rubbish. On the other hand, there are quite a few sorcerers. And no matter how you belittle this class, but it is quite strong. The sorcerer's problem is the tank meta. In the tank meta, any direct burst damage builds are pretty weak. Therefore, the mana sorcerer does not perform well against strong players. This is corny not a meta assembly. In this meta, I consider everything dk and nb top classes. But if you take for example nb, then even I, having 200 ping, I always know when an arrow flies at me and dodge. NB is so predictable in this meta that I don't see how a sorcerer can lose to him. This is a strong weakness of nb. Just like the sorcerer. The strong point of the sorcerer is high damage and healing during an active attack, but a weakness if he retreats to the defense. I see strong sorcerers more often than even wardens. . The sorcerer is unique. Who would not say. But if you remove the weaknesses of the sorcerer, then how to defeat him? Even with fog, I can't catch up with the sorcerers.

Maybe you'll get lucky and be able to draw the attention of the developers to the sorcerer, but I'm already tired of writing about the necromancer. I wrote for six months and got two bad nerfs))

PhoenixGrey

Melzo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

@Melzo

The skill that gives healing through critical hits heals for 3500. In pvp, this skill heals for 1700. My pet heals 500 per second. And mortal coil heals 500 per second. Vigor heals 9-10 thousand in 5 seconds. Here you can add mara and passive. In pvp 1 against one with my necromancer, I lose to the sorcerer in terms of healing and damage.

Your experiences are your own, I can't really dispute that however.

Necro has multiple advantages on sorc regarding healing and overall defense.

Major protection on demand, skills that reduce damage and buff healing just for being slotted, a burst heal that gives you resistances, passives that support defenses and healing, etc

Damage is another thing that depends a lot on the spec you play but survival is there either way.

Melzo wrote: »

The sorcerer has a fairly high healing.

With what skills? Crit surge literally depends on aggressive attacking and crit chance. Dark feel is ok but can be hit with bash or crushing shock at range and doesn't actually scale all that much like other heals. It's certainly nothing special at all in terms of a heal.

Melzo wrote: »

If he has mara, then he is unkillable.

This set doesn't magically work any better for sorc than any other class. You could put it on and arguably get more benefit because you have access to more defensive buffs and skills.

Melzo wrote: »

It's funny that you are talking nonsense about the fact that the sorcerer is weak. Too often I see the score of sorcerers 16-0 on high mmr bg.

Because of the nature of sorc to be and to move around the battlefield fast and basically hit and run they have easier access to finish off people in a big even if they weren't the ones doing most of the damage. Templar beam is very similar if not even better. Sorc has long been a good kill stealer I'm bgs.

Melzo wrote: »

Ridiculous damage given that the sorcerer deals that much damage with a spam ability.

There's too much to really have to guess here. Sets being worn, penetration/damage, debuffs being applied. It's not always the easiest class to play but the damage is there if you know how to build into it.

Point your finger at at least one necromancer using the skill to get 10 percent protection. 50% percent of a necromancer's skills are rubbish. On the other hand, there are quite a few sorcerers. And no matter how you belittle this class, but it is quite strong. The sorcerer's problem is the tank meta. In the tank meta, any direct burst damage builds are pretty weak. Therefore, the mana sorcerer does not perform well against strong players. This is corny not a meta assembly. In this meta, I consider everything dk and nb top classes. But if you take for example nb, then even I, having 200 ping, I always know when an arrow flies at me and dodge. NB is so predictable in this meta that I don't see how a sorcerer can lose to him. This is a strong weakness of nb. Just like the sorcerer. The strong point of the sorcerer is high damage and healing during an active attack, but a weakness if he retreats to the defense. I see strong sorcerers more often than even wardens. . The sorcerer is unique. Who would not say. But if you remove the weaknesses of the sorcerer, then how to defeat him? Even with fog, I can't catch up with the sorcerers.

Maybe you'll get lucky and be able to draw the attention of the developers to the sorcerer, but I'm already tired of writing about the necromancer. I wrote for six months and got two bad nerfs))

I am all for necro getting buffed. If that's your main and you spend your time and $$ on it, you deserve you enjoy your time in the game

But do not say sorcerer especially the magicka one is in good shape. There are quite a few builds which really go out of their way to cheese it with Mara's balm/ high health or bleed builds . But these are sets and not the class