Sorcerers?

Tannus15

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

Savage WW, Crystal Weapon, and Oakensoul were all nerfed at the same time iirc.
That one patch was crazy good though, it made the absentee defensive toolkit worth tolerating simply because you actually had a reasonable (okay, maybe too good) chance of bursting down your opponent before they could run you down, attrition you out, and then curbstomp you. I fully admit that the combination there needed to be nerfed, but that was also very clearly an anomaly that was being caused specifically by overperforming sets (Mainly OG Oakensoul, and Savage Werewolf. I still think they probably didn't need to nerf both Crystal Weapon and Savage Werewolf, but ZOS is notorious for overnerfs like that).

they also nerfed bound armaments to uselessness that patch.

Turtle_Bot

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

I'd say your build (and sorc in general) was still being carried by oakensoul (unless you were playing it in U35 or later after it got nerfed). That mythic was 100% overtuned with every major buff in the game, including the ones that sorc desperately needs in their class kit for crit chance and crit damage (it gave every needed buff as well as a huge amount of extras that weren't needed, it also freed up so many bar slots by removing the need for multiple skills and by locking into 1 bar, it meant pets only took up 1 bar slot, not 2). Even then, oakenblade, oakenplar, oakendk and oakencro were all significantly stronger for most pvp.

I played an oakensoul magsorc briefly during that patch as well, I soon switched back to oakenblade for getting actual kills and 1vx in pvp and switched my sorc between a tanky WW support stamsorc for small scaling, a vampire mistform sword and board troll tank build for MYM or running serpents disdain and force pulse with double dot poisons for a high pressure DoT build that completely fell off later that patch when the plar PotL bug became wide spread which made pressure builds nigh unplayable thanks to plars access to mass cleanse, insane burst + pressure and top tier healing/defense.

All of those sorc builds still lacked proper healing, something the class has not had since U33 when resto staff was strong enough to carry the class for healing with radiating, blessings and resto ult.

Turtle_Bot

Tannus15 wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

Savage WW, Crystal Weapon, and Oakensoul were all nerfed at the same time iirc.
That one patch was crazy good though, it made the absentee defensive toolkit worth tolerating simply because you actually had a reasonable (okay, maybe too good) chance of bursting down your opponent before they could run you down, attrition you out, and then curbstomp you. I fully admit that the combination there needed to be nerfed, but that was also very clearly an anomaly that was being caused specifically by overperforming sets (Mainly OG Oakensoul, and Savage Werewolf. I still think they probably didn't need to nerf both Crystal Weapon and Savage Werewolf, but ZOS is notorious for overnerfs like that).

they also nerfed bound armaments to uselessness that patch.

They nerfed bound armaments (and the class) so hard they had to completely revert the nerf to its damage during that same PTS cycle. I don't think I've ever seen that level of over nerfing and mistake realization/immediate band-aid fixing happen to another class before.

Tannus15

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

Savage WW, Crystal Weapon, and Oakensoul were all nerfed at the same time iirc.
That one patch was crazy good though, it made the absentee defensive toolkit worth tolerating simply because you actually had a reasonable (okay, maybe too good) chance of bursting down your opponent before they could run you down, attrition you out, and then curbstomp you. I fully admit that the combination there needed to be nerfed, but that was also very clearly an anomaly that was being caused specifically by overperforming sets (Mainly OG Oakensoul, and Savage Werewolf. I still think they probably didn't need to nerf both Crystal Weapon and Savage Werewolf, but ZOS is notorious for overnerfs like that).

they also nerfed bound armaments to uselessness that patch.

They nerfed bound armaments (and the class) so hard they had to completely revert the nerf to its damage during that same PTS cycle. I don't think I've ever seen that level of over nerfing and mistake realization/immediate band-aid fixing happen to another class before.

they didn't fully revert it.

it was still a 11% damage nerf and they removed the passive light attack damage increase.

sorc is such a victim of the "stam / mag" build era then reversion into hybrid. this is the dev commnet:



basically they designed the skill as a stam version of frags, and then haven't redesigned it now that stam can run frags, leaving the entire crystal weapon / bound armament setup as a dead concept from a patched out version of the game.

Turtle_Bot

Tannus15 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

Savage WW, Crystal Weapon, and Oakensoul were all nerfed at the same time iirc.
That one patch was crazy good though, it made the absentee defensive toolkit worth tolerating simply because you actually had a reasonable (okay, maybe too good) chance of bursting down your opponent before they could run you down, attrition you out, and then curbstomp you. I fully admit that the combination there needed to be nerfed, but that was also very clearly an anomaly that was being caused specifically by overperforming sets (Mainly OG Oakensoul, and Savage Werewolf. I still think they probably didn't need to nerf both Crystal Weapon and Savage Werewolf, but ZOS is notorious for overnerfs like that).

they also nerfed bound armaments to uselessness that patch.

They nerfed bound armaments (and the class) so hard they had to completely revert the nerf to its damage during that same PTS cycle. I don't think I've ever seen that level of over nerfing and mistake realization/immediate band-aid fixing happen to another class before.

they didn't fully revert it.

it was still a 11% damage nerf and they removed the passive light attack damage increase.

sorc is such a victim of the "stam / mag" build era then reversion into hybrid. this is the dev commnet:



basically they designed the skill as a stam version of frags, and then haven't redesigned it now that stam can run frags, leaving the entire crystal weapon / bound armament setup as a dead concept from a patched out version of the game.

didn't realise they never fully reverted that overnerf (it was originally a 50% nerf to its damage as well as loss of light attack damage increase in week 1 of that pts then I remember they buffed it again in week 4 or 5).

They also buffed prey much more than I thought. I thought it was 25% up to 45%, but it was 20% up to 45%, a 125% increase instead of an 80% increase, that's insane for what was already one of the BiS skill for pve.

StaticWave

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

Savage WW, Crystal Weapon, and Oakensoul were all nerfed at the same time iirc.
That one patch was crazy good though, it made the absentee defensive toolkit worth tolerating simply because you actually had a reasonable (okay, maybe too good) chance of bursting down your opponent before they could run you down, attrition you out, and then curbstomp you. I fully admit that the combination there needed to be nerfed, but that was also very clearly an anomaly that was being caused specifically by overperforming sets (Mainly OG Oakensoul, and Savage Werewolf. I still think they probably didn't need to nerf both Crystal Weapon and Savage Werewolf, but ZOS is notorious for overnerfs like that).

Crystal Weapon 100% needed to be nerfed. It was too good of a buff.

It was the only offensive ability in the game that could be used as both a spammable and a delayed burst. It was actually on par with Spectral Bow, and in some cases better because the damage delivery is tied to landing a light attack which costs zero resources and can be quickly spammed.

The current version is more balanced. It's still better than vanilla Crystal Weapon, but not as broken.

selig_fay

AdamLAD wrote: »

If you look at all the modifiers that effect healing the list is HUGE. However the list that effects shields is only 1 which is max magicka. That alone by simple logic just proves the argument that's shields are absolutely horrendous in comparison. That's just on paper. It's even worse in practicality xD

This works better because healing is highly dependent on damage stats. Yes, it also depends on resources, but due to hebritization, we got a soft cap, so healing with 30k mana will be better than with 40k mana. And damage also has the same logic. So you just lose damage for defense when others don't, that's all. This is not a problem of barriers, this is a problem of the system.

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

If you look at all the modifiers that effect healing the list is HUGE. However the list that effects shields is only 1 which is max magicka. That alone by simple logic just proves the argument that's shields are absolutely horrendous in comparison. That's just on paper. It's even worse in practicality xD

That's because healing works differently than shields. Modifiers like Crit Healing, Healing Done, and Healing Received help a player refill their HP faster. What healing can't do is temporarily throw an X amount of HP over their actual HP, aka effective HP.

So why are there not many modifiers that increase shield value? Well for one, that would be too strong. Shields are better than heals in the sense that they allow you to run a build with lower HP than normal because you can throw another 15-20k temporary HP over your actual HP. This significantly lowers the minimum HP requirement for many damage builds in PvP (You usually don't want to sit at < 27k HP unless you have so much tankiness people hit you like a wet noodle).

Not only that, but shields are a soft counter to burst damage because they essentially "eat" the damage, leaving your actual HP untouched. That is not the case for healing, as any amount of over-healing doesn't increase your actual HP. If you take burst damage greater than your actual HP, you will die before you can cast a heal.

Now imagine if you had buffs like Crit Shielding that randomly makes your shield 30-50% stronger, or Shielding Done/Shielding Received that make your shields 16% stronger. That would essentially give you far too much effective HP in a full damage build that's supposed to be squishy.

In the current meta where burst damage is reigning, shields are more valuable than heals. The reason why sorcs seem squishy is because most sorcs don't run heals to complement shields, and bar space is an issue. Throw in 1 HoT, and you will be much tankier.

AdamLAD

Zos in the past said specifically that sheilds are just an extension of HP. OK fine. But using that same logic. A 20k HP sorc with a 20k ward would by that logic have 40k HP ? SO, if someone HAS 40K HP they by default already have a 20k ward on them without casting 2 abilities that cost an insane amount of magicka and 2 global cooldowns. They also specifically said the reason shields was nerfed was because they could be applied prior to combat. OK then, let's use the same logic, 40K hp could be read as 20k HP and a 20K ward, right? As sheilds are just "An extension of HP" so if someone has 40K hp that means they have it ALSO before combat without even casting anything. Its flawed. Having 40k HP with all those modifiers effecting healing is drastically more powerful than 20K HP and 20K sheild. Not just that you would have more damage even with 40k HP because your not sacrificing raw wep/spell damage for it or sustain in magicka costing anything. To get wards you need to spend magicka and stack into Max magicka which is VASTLY less efficient for damage and healing

LukosCreyden

Sorcerer died when they killed the no pet playstyle.
Also, crystal weapon is rubbish.

Glantir

This thread is really pvp heavy

From the Pve perspective i can say that Sorc is lacking on AoE.

Sure the Volatile Familiar deals splash damage, but it also stuns so that Tanks couldnt pull the trash mobs. So in some Trials you couldnt bring the Familiar to trash fights.

The changes to Mages Wrath could help, but it has only an effect to Mobs under 20%.

Also the 6s timer on Daedric Prey isnt good, its to punishing for new player who probably will recast it to early or dont have an good uptime on it

selig_fay

AdamLAD wrote: »

Zos in the past said specifically that sheilds are just an extension of HP. OK fine. But using that same logic. A 20k HP sorc with a 20k ward would by that logic have 40k HP ? SO, if someone HAS 40K HP they by default already have a 20k ward on them without casting 2 abilities that cost an insane amount of magicka and 2 global cooldowns. They also specifically said the reason shields was nerfed was because they could be applied prior to combat. OK then, let's use the same logic, 40K hp could be read as 20k HP and a 20K ward, right? As sheilds are just "An extension of HP" so if someone has 40K hp that means they have it ALSO before combat without even casting anything. Its flawed. Having 40k HP with all those modifiers effecting healing is drastically more powerful than 20K HP and 20K sheild. Not just that you would have more damage even with 40k HP because your not sacrificing raw wep/spell damage for it or sustain in magicka costing anything. To get wards you need to spend magicka and stack into Max magicka which is VASTLY less efficient for damage and healing

And that's the problem. People have a lot of health with a lot of healing and a lot of damage. And it must be nerfed into the ground. On the other hand, it's hard to compare shields to health, because health regenerates, there is no shield, but you can just take a new shield. So if you take your 20k shield, it's not just 20k health, it's also 20k healing. And if fat damage builds get nerfed, you'll still have it. Its still strong, just situation is not so frendly.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

Savage WW, Crystal Weapon, and Oakensoul were all nerfed at the same time iirc.
That one patch was crazy good though, it made the absentee defensive toolkit worth tolerating simply because you actually had a reasonable (okay, maybe too good) chance of bursting down your opponent before they could run you down, attrition you out, and then curbstomp you. I fully admit that the combination there needed to be nerfed, but that was also very clearly an anomaly that was being caused specifically by overperforming sets (Mainly OG Oakensoul, and Savage Werewolf. I still think they probably didn't need to nerf both Crystal Weapon and Savage Werewolf, but ZOS is notorious for overnerfs like that).

Crystal Weapon 100% needed to be nerfed. It was too good of a buff.

It was the only offensive ability in the game that could be used as both a spammable and a delayed burst. It was actually on par with Spectral Bow, and in some cases better because the damage delivery is tied to landing a light attack which costs zero resources and can be quickly spammed.

The current version is more balanced. It's still better than vanilla Crystal Weapon, but not as broken.

@StaticWave

I'd use imbue weapons over crystal weapons any day of the week. Functions the same (the second hit of crystal weapons is meh, and considering it'll take up your "spammable slot" it's not worth it to alternate between it and ANOTHER spammable.

But crushing weapons gives Major Breach, does the same initial hit damage (actually tooltips for a little more I believe), is partially refunded if you don't use it, procs the psjiic passive for extra damage, and gives a slight damage shield when blocking with it.

Crystal weapons gives 1000 penetration compared to 6000, gives a slight heal, gives spell crit instead of it's own damage type crit ([snip] Zos), reduces the cost of your next ability but, takes more micro management and another reliable skill to take advantage of it's second damage proc (not worth it).

They just function too similarly to pick the one with 5000 less penetration (a whole 5 piece bonus worth of extra damage), for that ability and all skills to follow. If Sorcs had a more reliable way of applying major breach then sure it would be better, but they don't so. Crystal weapons is a watered down Crushing Weapons.

That and your losing what's suppose to be your biggest burst skill Crystal Fragments to slot it.

[edited for profanity bypass]

RemoryAzure

Glantir wrote: »

From the Pve perspective i can say that Sorc is lacking on AoE.

u can go heavy-attack build, its ez and purely aoe
anyway, pve balance is irrelevant, noone cares about it, the game is too casual and has no any competitive pve content

Sergykid

Overamera wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

Clearly you're just a victim. Like when I saw you lose to a magsorc 1v1 when templar was the strongest 1v1 class. No wonder you think magsorc is in a fine spot.

what? i didn't lose any 1v1, nobody dies in 1v1 unless someone risks taking the kill and ignores defense for a sec, but nobody dies if stays on defense.

sorcs are also able to just stalemate forever more than 1v1 cuz aoe stun streak behind pillar and out of range and sight

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

Savage WW, Crystal Weapon, and Oakensoul were all nerfed at the same time iirc.
That one patch was crazy good though, it made the absentee defensive toolkit worth tolerating simply because you actually had a reasonable (okay, maybe too good) chance of bursting down your opponent before they could run you down, attrition you out, and then curbstomp you. I fully admit that the combination there needed to be nerfed, but that was also very clearly an anomaly that was being caused specifically by overperforming sets (Mainly OG Oakensoul, and Savage Werewolf. I still think they probably didn't need to nerf both Crystal Weapon and Savage Werewolf, but ZOS is notorious for overnerfs like that).

Crystal Weapon 100% needed to be nerfed. It was too good of a buff.

It was the only offensive ability in the game that could be used as both a spammable and a delayed burst. It was actually on par with Spectral Bow, and in some cases better because the damage delivery is tied to landing a light attack which costs zero resources and can be quickly spammed.

The current version is more balanced. It's still better than vanilla Crystal Weapon, but not as broken.

@StaticWave

I'd use imbue weapons over crystal weapons any day of the week. Functions the same (the second hit of crystal weapons is meh, and considering it'll take up your "spammable slot" it's not worth it to alternate between it and ANOTHER spammable.

But crushing weapons gives Major Breach, does the same initial hit damage (actually tooltips for a little more I believe), is partially refunded if you don't use it, procs the psjiic passive for extra damage, and gives a slight damage shield when blocking with it.

Crystal weapons gives 1000 penetration compared to 6000, gives a slight heal, gives spell crit instead of it's own damage type crit ([snip] Zos), reduces the cost of your next ability but, takes more micro management and another reliable skill to take advantage of it's second damage proc (not worth it).

They just function too similarly to pick the one with 5000 less penetration (a whole 5 piece bonus worth of extra damage), for that ability and all skills to follow. If Sorcs had a more reliable way of applying major breach then sure it would be better, but they don't so. Crystal weapons is a watered down Crushing Weapons.

That and your losing what's suppose to be your biggest burst skill Crystal Fragments to slot it.

Crystal Weapon is superior. Let’s look at why.

Crystal Weapon:
-1k pen
-10% cost reduction to next skill
-6s duration
-2% weapon/spell damage when slotted
-procs Blood Magic heal
-has 2 stacks
-works on light and heavy attacks

Crushing Weapon:
-Major Breach which is 5.9k pen
-build Spell Orb stacks to do extra damage
-2s duration
-only works on light attacks
-gives 5k shield when slotted and blocking

The reason why Crystal Weapon is superior is due to it having 6 seconds of duration, working on heavy attacks, and proccing the Blood Magic heal, which is much more valuable on a sorc due to a lack of good heals.

5k pen is not significant enough to slot it over Crystal Weapon. Now if you’re a pure magsorc then that’s a different argument, but hybrid and stamsorcs must slot Crystal Weapon.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

Zos in the past said specifically that sheilds are just an extension of HP. OK fine. But using that same logic. A 20k HP sorc with a 20k ward would by that logic have 40k HP ? SO, if someone HAS 40K HP they by default already have a 20k ward on them without casting 2 abilities that cost an insane amount of magicka and 2 global cooldowns. They also specifically said the reason shields was nerfed was because they could be applied prior to combat. OK then, let's use the same logic, 40K hp could be read as 20k HP and a 20K ward, right? As sheilds are just "An extension of HP" so if someone has 40K hp that means they have it ALSO before combat without even casting anything. Its flawed. Having 40k HP with all those modifiers effecting healing is drastically more powerful than 20K HP and 20K sheild. Not just that you would have more damage even with 40k HP because your not sacrificing raw wep/spell damage for it or sustain in magicka costing anything. To get wards you need to spend magicka and stack into Max magicka which is VASTLY less efficient for damage and healing

Yes, it’s flawed that builds are able to reach 40k HP and 7k weapon damage. We can blame ZOS for giving everyone 1k free spell/weapon damage and 13k max stats when they reworked CP 1.0

But you also have to realize that only a few specs can reach those numbers due to having health-boosting passives. Most classes end up giving up damage and max resources for more HP and sustain.

Now I’m not saying shield shouldn’t be buffed. I’m strongly in favor of reducing the cost of shields by half so that magsorcs can go full damage. However, I’m against giving shields modifiers similar to healing because it would make the class too strong. Even if you’re at 25k HP, the cap for shield is still 15k. That’s basically a full damage build in ~52-55k effective HP (using 2 shields) with a ton of sustain and max stats . Most classes have to give up something - either max resources OR sustain OR both to reach those HP values, and that’s assuming they play the right class.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

Maybe I should clarify, as a ranged spammable in PvP. Personally don't like Crushing Weapon as a melee spammable, feels clunky to me, but it works very well as a ranged spammable since you are able to apply it during the light attack travel time.

Don't think heavy attacks are being used by most ranged PvP players unless you're built for it. Too little damage for too much time.

Personally I'll take the extra 5k penetration over the heal. It's a heal tied to being offensive, which isn't nothing, but it's the most useful when it's a dps race to the death.

As for the 2 seconds versus 6 seconds, you're not preemptively applying it for the next attack, you're using it for the light attack that is traveling, so the time to apply really isn't a factor for it. (Unless it's used to setup burst which I do, and I'll skip a light attack gcd to have it apply with another damage skill). And if the light attack is dodge rolled you're refunded a large portion of the cost (sustain based on failed damage).

But as you said, we're talking about different applications of the skill. Ranged versus melee. I'm not a melee spec, so I can't speak on it's values for melee. But for ranged Crushing Weapons > Crystal weapons for me.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

Maybe I should clarify, as a ranged spammable in PvP. Personally don't like Crushing Weapon as a melee spammable, feels clunky to me, but it works very well as a ranged spammable since you are able to apply it during the light attack travel time.

Don't think heavy attacks are being used by most ranged PvP players unless you're built for it. Too little damage for too much time.

Personally I'll take the extra 5k penetration over the heal. It's a heal tied to being offensive, which isn't nothing, but it's the most useful when it's a dps race to the death.

As for the 2 seconds versus 6 seconds, you're not preemptively applying it for the next attack, you're using it for the light attack that is traveling, so the time to apply really isn't a factor for it. (Unless it's used to setup burst which I do, and I'll skip a light attack gcd to have it apply with another damage skill). And if the light attack is dodge rolled you're refunded a large portion of the cost (sustain based on failed damage).

But as you said, we're talking about different applications of the skill. Ranged versus melee. I'm not a melee spec, so I can't speak on it's values for melee. But for ranged Crushing Weapons > Crystal weapons for me.

As a ranged stamsorc, I will take Crystal Weapon over Ele Weapon anyday for a spammable. My whole bar consists of Crystal Weapon, Curse, and Bound Arms. I get Major Breach from slotting Ele Sus. The burst is still strong because Bound Arms can crit for 10k.

The most important reason why I pick Crystal Wep is due to Blood Magic heal. There are many, many instances where I’m not using Vigor for the majority of the fight because Blood Magic + Crit Surge literally give me 4-6k heals a second when procced together. I’ve also gotten 4k crit Blood Magic heals from being a 40k HP sorc (tooltip is 5k)

This allows me to be as offensive as possible because my healing is tied to playing offense. I’m able to dish out damage constantly due to Blood Magic + Surge proccing left and right. It’s much much better than swapping back to Vigor constantly whenever you want to heal up.

That is why I will never slot Ele wep.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

Yeah definitely different play styles. I'm not saying you're a bad player, I've heard you are very good from other people posting and I believe it.

But I don't like promoting 40k health setups. It's too forgiving, which makes it easy to play, and rises the skill floor. I prefer to rely on active defensives, and I prefer promoting active defenses (heals, blocking, rolling, shielding, CCing, etc) because in MY opinion its better for the "health" of the game, you make a couple mistakes and you die using those, as you should, you made a mistake. No one enjoys doing a full PvE rotation on another player like they are a PvE boss haha. And it's not fun when you take advantage of the other players mistakes but they survive because of a crutch like a 40k health pool. Just MY opinion. I'm sure you'd do great on other more risky setups too, and you just use that one because, well it's available and it makes things easier.

Buuuut you can't deny that it brings the skill floor up haha.

Also don't love the idea of giving up a bar slot for breach. Unless it's for specifically dueling, but i don't have setups for dueling, and setups for open world, and setups for bgs, I just run the same stuff everywhere. The point of dueling to me is to get better for open world encounters, not to give myself an advantage in a strict 1v1, personally. And for me using ele sus in a small scale fight where you may need to change targets rapidly just doesn't seem like the best play. To each there own though of course. For my application, crushing is better!

Edit: I'm also a Breton so yeah I'm a Mag Sorc, can't slot too many stamina abilities otherwise I mine as well change my race or make a new character as a Stam Sorc with vigor heals and yada yada

Luede

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave



But I don't like promoting 40k health setups. It's too forgiving, which makes it easy to play, and rises the skill floor. I prefer to rely on active defensives, and I prefer promoting active defenses (heals, blocking, rolling, shielding, CCing, etc) because in MY opinion its better for the "health" of the game, you make a couple mistakes and you die using those, as you should, you made a mistake. No one enjoys doing a full PvE rotation on another player like they are a PvE boss haha. And it's not fun when you take advantage of the other players mistakes but they survive because of a crutch like a 40k health pool. Just MY opinion. I'm sure you'd do great on other more risky setups too, and you just use that one because, well it's available and it makes things easier.

don't compare a magicka setup with a stamina/hybrid setup, the hp buffer must be automatically bigger there, because in the magicka setup you build up the buffer via shields. sometimes the stamina races also have hp bonuses, 10% hp via bound armaments, tri stat enchants (in a magicka setup i use pure magicka enchants), etc. personally i have 20 attribute points in health, because you don't play with a max stamina setup, but get most of the damage from weapon damage. so the difference between my stamina and magicka setup is nearly 9k hp, without getting this via sets.

Jsmalls

@Luede

Every point spent getting more health is a point spent doing less damage. And every point spent doing less damage theoretically, let's a player better with active defenses have more damage over you (obviously I know having a high health pool let's you stay offensive longer unfortunately).

If you have 40k health without putting anything towards health, then that's an issue Zos needs to handle. 40k is unhealthy for the game design. In my opinion.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

Yeah definitely different play styles. I'm not saying you're a bad player, I've heard you are very good from other people posting and I believe it.

But I don't like promoting 40k health setups. It's too forgiving, which makes it easy to play, and rises the skill floor. I prefer to rely on active defensives, and I prefer promoting active defenses (heals, blocking, rolling, shielding, CCing, etc) because in MY opinion its better for the "health" of the game, you make a couple mistakes and you die using those, as you should, you made a mistake. No one enjoys doing a full PvE rotation on another player like they are a PvE boss haha. And it's not fun when you take advantage of the other players mistakes but they survive because of a crutch like a 40k health pool. Just MY opinion. I'm sure you'd do great on other more risky setups too, and you just use that one because, well it's available and it makes things easier.

Buuuut you can't deny that it brings the skill floor up haha.

Also don't love the idea of giving up a bar slot for breach. Unless it's for specifically dueling, but i don't have setups for dueling, and setups for open world, and setups for bgs, I just run the same stuff everywhere. The point of dueling to me is to get better for open world encounters, not to give myself an advantage in a strict 1v1, personally. And for me using ele sus in a small scale fight where you may need to change targets rapidly just doesn't seem like the best play. To each there own though of course. For my application, crushing is better!

Edit: I'm also a Breton so yeah I'm a Mag Sorc, can't slot too many stamina abilities otherwise I mine as well change my race or make a new character as a Stam Sorc with vigor heals and yada yada

Don’t worry, I am also with you on high HP raising the floor. In fact, I currently run a 36k HP build with zero investment in HP except for DDF, Imperial race, and tri glyphs. I’ve even gone as far as using all max stam glyphs for more damage and dropped to 33k HP, as low as I could get in that build.

Unfortunately, stamsorc kind of has to build higher HP than normal because they don’t have a burst heal and Blood Magic scales off HP. Next patch people will have even more incentive to build high HP when Harden Ward scales with it.

Personally, my minimum HP threshold is 29k. I cannot go lower because that’s one-shot territory. High HP helps in the sense that if you take a 35k burst, you still have some HP left to turn the tables around. You can’t do that if you get one shotted. So in a way, the meta forces you to adapt and build higher HP. If burst damage wasn’t so high right now, people wouldn’t need to build higher HP.

This goes back to my point of shields being stronger than heals in a burst meta. The ability to slap 15-20k temporary HP over your actual HP helps tremendously in surviving burst damage. If you take care of shield’s weakness, which is DoTs, then you’ve basically created a build with no drawbacks.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

Yeah definitely different play styles. I'm not saying you're a bad player, I've heard you are very good from other people posting and I believe it.

But I don't like promoting 40k health setups. It's too forgiving, which makes it easy to play, and rises the skill floor. I prefer to rely on active defensives, and I prefer promoting active defenses (heals, blocking, rolling, shielding, CCing, etc) because in MY opinion its better for the "health" of the game, you make a couple mistakes and you die using those, as you should, you made a mistake. No one enjoys doing a full PvE rotation on another player like they are a PvE boss haha. And it's not fun when you take advantage of the other players mistakes but they survive because of a crutch like a 40k health pool. Just MY opinion. I'm sure you'd do great on other more risky setups too, and you just use that one because, well it's available and it makes things easier.

Buuuut you can't deny that it brings the skill floor up haha.

Also don't love the idea of giving up a bar slot for breach. Unless it's for specifically dueling, but i don't have setups for dueling, and setups for open world, and setups for bgs, I just run the same stuff everywhere. The point of dueling to me is to get better for open world encounters, not to give myself an advantage in a strict 1v1, personally. And for me using ele sus in a small scale fight where you may need to change targets rapidly just doesn't seem like the best play. To each there own though of course. For my application, crushing is better!

Edit: I'm also a Breton so yeah I'm a Mag Sorc, can't slot too many stamina abilities otherwise I mine as well change my race or make a new character as a Stam Sorc with vigor heals and yada yada

Also, I use Ele Sus for duels and Caltrops for OW. I always use Essence Thief for every build, so caltrop is kind of a must because I’m always fighting close to my enemies as it helps proc Crit Surge, applies AoE snare and Breach. I run a ranged build, but I play like a melee brawler sorc. It’s weird but that’s always been my playstyle - to jump into the fight and brawl it out regardless of weapon choice. It’s more fun and really tests your mechanical skills and situational awareness.

acastanza_ESO

Remember that if Snake in the Stars goes through, the Blood Magic passive is going to get us all killed next patch...

RemoryAzure

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Remember that if Snake in the Stars goes through, the Blood Magic passive is going to get us all killed next patch...

its better to have blood magic on top of vigor, rather than just let snake completely negate vigor and lead u to death

acastanza_ESO

RemoryAzure wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Remember that if Snake in the Stars goes through, the Blood Magic passive is going to get us all killed next patch...

its better to have blood magic on top of vigor, rather than just let snake completely negate vigor and lead u to death

Sure, but that is even more pressure to use Vigor on a class that is very much not designed for it.

OBJnoob

I mean we're talking about 40k HP sorcs with shields that scale with health.

One of many contexts, in my opinion, where that set is needed to curtail the tanky stalemate meta.

It feels like, before the patch notes came out, everybody was upset about not being able to kill anyone. Everyone looked at it from a "why can't I kill them" perspective. Now the patch notes come out and suddenly everyone looks at it from a "that's how they are going to kill me" perspective.

The truth is that both "us" and "they" need to die faster.

ForumBully

I see a lot of concern about high health sorcs...am I wrong to not be concerned yet? Maybe I need to tinker around a bit, but you do need a decent mag pool to sustain shields

I really havent played with it yet though, so I might be way off

OBJnoob

@ForumBully Well I'm on console so I can't use the PTS unfortunately. I wouldn't say I'm "worried" about sorcs-- I don't think they were buffed enough.

I will say though that I've been wanting an excuse to play my stamsorc again and this is it for me. I'm thinking about trying Sword Swinger + Clever Alchemist + Gaze of Sithis. Sword Singer might be a bad choice-- but even if I change sets, the goal is to spam the crap out of wrecking blow.

More importantly this setup should have a lot of HP. And while Hardened Ward would indeed be difficult to spam on a stamsorc, using it WITH the 1h/s shield or even undaunted boneshield, both of which cost stamina, won't be so hard.