Sorcerers?

MurkyWetWolf198

Hi again, NB (PvE) and DK (PvP) main here.
What's everyone's issue with the Sorc rn? What isn't working, what's weak, etc.? Also, why do I keep hearing that Sorcs don't have a good in-class spammable when frags exist? Are frags bad now or something?
Also, to be specific, I don't care about all classes having access to Vamp-totally-not-streak or the meager buffs to the shields. I'm trying to understand why the Sorc's toolkit is failing, not what other classes have access to
PvE and PvP perspectives both welcome, but please specify which you're talking about. We can all agree the a classes performance and struggles can be wildly different, and it's a bit confusing to try and differentiate which one anyone's talking about unless they say it

(And don't tell me to go read the patch notes, I've done that. I'm looking for actual experience with the class here, what it FEELS like, where it's hurting. Hard to glean that from patch notes, and I ain't got the time or patience to learn every class in the game)

P.S. Sorry if this sounds uppity or demanding, but I'm trying to streamline the information gathering from how I did it on previous threads

ForumBully

Sorcs (magsorc specifically) toolkit has been left in the dust over the past couple of years. It's been slowly losing the race to better mitigation from sets, better damage from investing in weapon/spell power, and weakening the class defense of shields which require magsorcs to invest in max Magicka rather than weapon/spell power in order to use shields effectively.
Procs that damage scale from power, not resource pools, which means sorcs can't use those sets and still use shields effectively. They also can't use those sets because doing so lowers their Magicka pools compared to something like Necropotence or Crafty Alfiq...Necro and Crafty will give sorcs better defense and worse offense because of the way shields scale.
Sorcs also have subpar healing, compared to other classes, by design since they're intended to use their class shield. Healing skills also scale better with Power versus Magicka pool size. The burst heal sorcs have is in the form of an unreliable and killable pet that must occupy two skill slots to be useful. Pets are central to sorcs, by design and those pets are a liability in practice.
Another nail in the coffin is shields being capped by health pools. Shield size can only be as large as a percentage of max health....so sorcs need to have a large Magicka pool to make shields larger and (ideally) a large health pool so that the cap is higher. They can't do that and still invest in weapon/spell power while still having the sustain to cast their shields as often as needed in combat.
A Sorc in 7 light armor was at one time the tankiest thing on the battlefield thanks to shield strength, but that was long ago. Shields can still be strong, but it's at the expense of offensive potential. A Sorc can't have, comparable to other classes, good defense and good offense at the same time.
In short, the game has moved on in many ways in terms of power for other classes from skills and sets, but how sorcs work has remained the same.

Sergykid

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

Turtle_Bot

I go over the main issues the class has in this linked thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7804446#Comment_7804446

The short of that thread is:
- Sorcs heals are tied to very clunky, unreliable and outdated mechanics that punish players for trying to use them as they are intended to be used.
- The class lacks a lot of buff/debuff options being tied for lowest total buff/debuff access with necro (with very limited rare buffs and some tied to skills that are unusable).
- Damage is very unreliable in pvp where all of its abilities being projectiles (except curse) being so slow make it very easy to avoid the entire burst combo with 1 dodge roll. Curse and fury also suffer from the current warden and mara's meta since they can both be cleansed and will do nothing if that happens

The other issues not listed or partially touched on in that thread are:
- Shields are tied to max mag, which became very bad for scaling a few years ago when zos changed the way damage, healing and proc set scaling function to scale with weapon/spell damage instead of max stats meaning that to build for damage meant you had to give up on the class's defensive abilities, or to build into those, your damage and healing was severely lacking.
- Also, with the changes to mist form, every class has access to what is essentially ball of lightning, which combined with the massive power creep in movement speed access (race against time, major and/or minor expedition access, swift trait, celerity CP, wild hunt mythic, medium armor passive, etc) over the past couple of years has enabled every other class to easily reach the speed cap as well and have the same mobility that sorcerer had before those buffs were made so widely available while getting to keep their far superior defensive options.
- As a result of the class being carried by overpowered/bugged sets (oakensoul/savage werewolf/dark convergance), the class got a bunch of very unfair and extremely heavy handed overnerfs in U35, to the point that 1 of the nerfs (bound armaments) was almost entirely reversed and another pve skill (daedric prey) was buffed by nearly 100% in that same pts cycle just to bring the class back up to playable for zos's balance spreadsheets at the time and despite being promised several buffs/fixes/reworks to the class during that U35 cycle, nothing appeared outside of those 2 bandaid fixes. Then in U36, the class still didn't get anything and all the class gets so far for U37 is a buff to an extremely outdated defensive option (shields) without actually fixing the issues with that option or providing a different option (actual heals), and a skill update on the execute that nobody asked for that doesn't even attempt to fix the issues with that skill let alone the rest of the class's glaring issues.

TL//DR, the game moved on and every other class was either inherently able to, or was buffed/changed to be able to, take advantage of the damage/healing formula rework and the hybridization changes much better than sorc was ever able (or allowed) to and as such, the class got left behind in several aspects and the currently proposed changes in U37 do nothing to fix the actual issues the class has in the modern game.

selig_fay

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

I understand correctly that you were the OP, but then you were brought back to normal and now you want buffs because the other class is OP?

Sergykid

sorcs are not supposed to heal like crazy, it's so silly seeing how yall request it like it's how it should been, dk and plars can do it cuz they class has no mobility, sorcs are supposed to survive by teleporting or having wards, if they heal too then how u suppose to kill one if it just streaks away and instead of keeping up with their health they just keep full again. They already do it, cuz dark deal no need to be block casted from range, also the pet takes less time to respawn it than it takes to kill it, it's profit to resummon it.
on top of everything they also buffed wards now

Turtle_Bot

How to say you've never played sorc without saying you've never played sorc.

[snip] This is not summerset anymore, the class is nowhere near as OP as you are claiming it to be, if it was, everyone would be running that class in cyro instead of NB, DK or wardens.

[edited for flaming]

ForumBully

Sergykid wrote: »

sorcs are not supposed to heal like crazy, it's so silly seeing how yall request it like it's how it should been, dk and plars can do it cuz they class has no mobility, sorcs are supposed to survive by teleporting or having wards, if they heal too then how u suppose to kill one if it just streaks away and instead of keeping up with their health they just keep full again. They already do it, cuz dark deal no need to be block casted from range, also the pet takes less time to respawn it than it takes to kill it, it's profit to resummon it.
on top of everything they also buffed wards now

I would say sorcs need either improvement to healing or improvement to shields. Not both. Either way, sorcs cannot use class defenses (shields) effectively and still remain competitive in damage with other classes thanks to changes in the game over time (sets and skill changes for other classes).
A sorcs offensive toolkit isn't a match for the defensive toolkit on other classes (or what's available from sets that sorcs can't use as effectively)

** Note, I only mean magsorc. I don't play stamsorc and haven't in ages, but my experience has been that stamsorc can be as good as weapon skill lines and sets will allow.

katorga

For PVP sorc is completely lacking in every area compared to ZOS's top classes. The only decent skill streak will be available to all next patch.

Short answer for me:

- pets useless in pvp, and too many core capabilities are tied to using pets, which wrecks you bar space
- no burst heal, no health based heal, no hot (not tied to pets)
- no sources of quality major/minor buffs
- Shields ineffectual as repacement for heals
- Burst combo takes way to many bar slots and GCD to line up
- Defense thro shield stacking takes too many barslots and GCD

Years ago, I said Sorc's class design was complete, well thought out and everything synergized well. The class made me a better player. ZOS has taken a hatchet to that. Everything is out of sync with the current game design. ZOS has stacked every wish list item into other classes and every comparable is worse:

Look at Surprise Attack vs Crystal weapon - sundered, 2974 pen vs 1000 pen. Little things like that add up.

Now playing Sorc makes me a worse player.

ForumBully

katorga wrote: »

For PVP sorc is completely lacking in every area compared to ZOS's top classes. The only decent skill streak will be available to all next patch.

Short answer for me:

- pets useless in pvp, and too many core capabilities are tied to using pets, which wrecks you bar space
- no burst heal, no health based heal, no hot (not tied to pets)
- no sources of quality major/minor buffs
- Shields ineffectual as repacement for heals
- Burst combo takes way to many bar slots and GCD to line up
- Defense thro shield stacking takes too many barslots and GCD

Years ago, I said Sorc's class design was complete, well thought out and everything synergized well. The class made me a better player. ZOS has taken a hatchet to that. Everything is out of sync with the current game design. ZOS has stacked every wish list item into other classes and every comparable is worse:

Look at Surprise Attack vs Crystal weapon - sundered, 2974 pen vs 1000 pen. Little things like that add up.

Now playing Sorc makes me a worse player.

Very relatable. I still play magsorc, as crippled as it is lately because, as you mentioned, sorcs used to be complete and they had the most active defense of any class in the form of shields. Whatever you think of shield stacking, now or historically, it was an active defense and it wasn't given for free from a set.
That active defense could be a thing again, and I don't think it would be overpowered at all in today's environment

Sergykid

selig_fay wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

I understand correctly that you were the OP, but then you were brought back to normal and now you want buffs because the other class is OP?

yes but not me, it is like that, they were op and brought back to normal and now they want buffs cuz other class is op

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How to say you've never played sorc without saying you've never played sorc.

[snip] This is not summerset anymore, the class is nowhere near as OP as you are claiming it to be, if it was, everyone would be running that class in cyro instead of NB, DK or wardens.

i did play sorc, it's disgusting.
it's not any lies or misinformation, it was op and now it's fine as i said, but other class is op doesn't mean sorc is weak, just other class need brought back to normal as sorcs were brought.

katorga wrote: »

Look at Surprise Attack vs Crystal weapon - sundered, 2974 pen vs 1000 pen. Little things like that add up.

u can have sundered effect with crystal weapon, it's separate debuffs. Also crystal weapon can be used at range. Two advantages here but yall sorcs just play victim.

also sorc with all the mobility is actually supposed to not heal like a plar

[edited to remove quote]

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Concerning the class spammable for magicka sorcerers: magsorc must have another spammable from a non-class skill line, such as elemental weapon, to make use of their class spammable in pvp. This is due to the instant cast requirement on crystal frags. So there's two bar spaces gone for access to one good class spammable. Add this to the bar space taken by a pet for a good heal, and bar space real estate becomes quite thin.

This issue further complicates when you consider the severe lack of decent spammables that are available for magic users. The only one that made sense for me was crushing shock, and that requires a destruction staff on the front bar... which causes you to lose out on the penetration of maces/mauls and the potential for the two enchantments on dual wield.

Zodiarkslayer

Don't listen to the Sorcophobics. They are all just afraid, that Sorcs will dominate PvP again.
I'd rather no class be dominating, but hey. Thats just me.

However, the structural problems within the class remain. You either play pets or heavy atttacks or both. If you want something beyond that, your options are running out very fast.

There are so many holes in the class kit, it should be renamed to swiss cheese class.

Overamera

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

Clearly you're just a victim. Like when I saw you lose to a magsorc 1v1 when templar was the strongest 1v1 class. No wonder you think magsorc is in a fine spot.

wolfie1.0.

Sergykid wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

I understand correctly that you were the OP, but then you were brought back to normal and now you want buffs because the other class is OP?

yes but not me, it is like that, they were op and brought back to normal and now they want buffs cuz other class is op

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How to say you've never played sorc without saying you've never played sorc.

[snip] This is not summerset anymore, the class is nowhere near as OP as you are claiming it to be, if it was, everyone would be running that class in cyro instead of NB, DK or wardens.

i did play sorc, it's disgusting.
it's not any lies or misinformation, it was op and now it's fine as i said, but other class is op doesn't mean sorc is weak, just other class need brought back to normal as sorcs were brought.

katorga wrote: »

Look at Surprise Attack vs Crystal weapon - sundered, 2974 pen vs 1000 pen. Little things like that add up.

u can have sundered effect with crystal weapon, it's separate debuffs. Also crystal weapon can be used at range. Two advantages here but yall sorcs just play victim.

also sorc with all the mobility is actually supposed to not heal like a plar

Except that goes against the ZOS philosophy that all classes should be able to do all roles and bring something to the table. A sorc should be able to heal like a templar under that philosophy. Equal tool kits in value.

Saying that a templar is exceptional in healing implies that it is op and needs to come down. Or bring the sorcs up to match. Personally, I think that changing how pets work would go a long way to help the class. Rather than requiring a double bar I vote that a pet requires a single slot and had a 5 to 8 minute spawn time, with a slightly higher summon cost.

Either that or return the long absent overpower 3rd bar.

[edited to remove quote]

ForumBully

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

I understand correctly that you were the OP, but then you were brought back to normal and now you want buffs because the other class is OP?

yes but not me, it is like that, they were op and brought back to normal and now they want buffs cuz other class is op

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How to say you've never played sorc without saying you've never played sorc.

[snip] This is not summerset anymore, the class is nowhere near as OP as you are claiming it to be, if it was, everyone would be running that class in cyro instead of NB, DK or wardens.

i did play sorc, it's disgusting.
it's not any lies or misinformation, it was op and now it's fine as i said, but other class is op doesn't mean sorc is weak, just other class need brought back to normal as sorcs were brought.

katorga wrote: »

Look at Surprise Attack vs Crystal weapon - sundered, 2974 pen vs 1000 pen. Little things like that add up.

u can have sundered effect with crystal weapon, it's separate debuffs. Also crystal weapon can be used at range. Two advantages here but yall sorcs just play victim.

also sorc with all the mobility is actually supposed to not heal like a plar

Except that goes against the ZOS philosophy that all classes should be able to do all roles and bring something to the table. A sorc should be able to heal like a templar under that philosophy. Equal tool kits in value.

Saying that a templar is exceptional in healing implies that it is op and needs to come down. Or bring the sorcs up to match. Personally, I think that changing how pets work would go a long way to help the class. Rather than requiring a double bar I vote that a pet requires a single slot and had a 5 to 8 minute spawn time, with a slightly higher summon cost.

Either that or return the long absent overpower 3rd bar.

I disagree, a little. I think all classes should have a way to mitigate damage roughly equally. Sorcs used to be able to mitigate via shields on par (and in fact, better in the way way back) with Templars via healing. IMO absorbing damage is comparable to replacing health.
I wouldn't want sorcs or any class to be able to do both really well.
Sorcs ability to mitigate has fallen behind, since they can only play defense or offense but not both well.

[edited to remove quote]

noblecron

Ngl I personally think Sorcs are losing their class identity. Years ago only certain roles needed pets and even then pets were only for certain things. Now can't play sorc without a pet making them more of a conjurer than a sorc skilled in multiple things

AdamLAD

If you look at all the modifiers that effect healing the list is HUGE. However the list that effects shields is only 1 which is max magicka. That alone by simple logic just proves the argument that's shields are absolutely horrendous in comparison. That's just on paper. It's even worse in practicality xD

Jsmalls

I'm an old school Mag Sorc so please excuse my bias, but I feel like I play the way a MagSorc was "designed" to play, and obviously I know that you play how you want in this game. And I'd argue that with my years of experience playing MagSorc I can judge the current state of this "designed" playstyle pretty well. I can also sustain situations with very low recoveries to benefit my damage because I've been playing for a LONG time.

That being said, I'm pretty much maxed out on damage playing the way the class feels like it should play.

In NoCP (because I feel like CP adds too many variables), I have offensively 54k Magicka, ~16k penetration, ~3.5 - 4k spell damage, and 35% crit chance. That's a lot of "damage" potential. I use your typical offensive skills, curse, frag, imbue weapons, streak, and overload (I'm pretty decent at comboing overload), and let's just ignore my defense but I'll at least state I have 5 skills for defensive purposes (hardened, dark conversion, crit surge, bound aegis, and boundless storm) and I often use streak defensively as well. All of my sets are for Max Magicka since it benefits my damage and my defense. My only source of sustain is Torc of Tonal and dark conversion (all spell damage on jewelry, tri stat food, so no recovery there, mage mundus no recovery there), and I've learned how to synchronize those very well to maintain full damage capabilities.

I very much struggle competing against most meta tanky classes DKs, Templars, Wardens, some Necros.

Now is this because I'm a garbage player? Maybe, or is it because MagSorc is playing "scissors" against these "rock" classes?

Mag Sorc doesn't have sustained damage in it's toolkit, it's all burst oriented, and burst damage only works if it hits hard enough.

I feel like I'm doing my part in trying to make sure my toolkit can hit as hard as I can, while maintaining enough max Magicka to make my defense also viable.

I mean come on 54k Magicka, 16k penetration, and 4k spell damage is A LOT of offense, arguably more than most other full damage builds. My frags will still hit for 6k against any of those meta tanky classes, and most of my kit gets dodge rolled. So what's a MagSorc to do?

I can go full spell damage and have 0 viable defense. I can slot pets and heavy attack (snore). I guess I could go play a hybrid blood craze duel Sorc and be cheesy for 1v1 and lose most of what makes the class unique.

There is a reason why you don't see many Mag Sorcs in PvP right now. And it's not because they are a competitive class that just requires a high skill cap, it's because the ceiling is lower than other classes, and they only excel at killing incompetent players.

I can't speak on Stam Sorcs, but I don't think they are in a great spot either.

ForumBully

Jsmalls wrote: »

I'm an old school Mag Sorc so please excuse my bias, but I feel like I play the way a MagSorc was "designed" to play, and obviously I know that you play how you want in this game. And I'd argue that with my years of experience playing MagSorc I can judge the current state of this "designed" playstyle pretty well. I can also sustain situations with very low recoveries to benefit my damage because I've been playing for a LONG time.

That being said, I'm pretty much maxed out on damage playing the way the class feels like it should play.

In NoCP (because I feel like CP adds too many variables), I have offensively 54k Magicka, ~16k penetration, ~3.5 - 4k spell damage, and 35% crit chance. That's a lot of "damage" potential. I use your typical offensive skills, curse, frag, imbue weapons, streak, and overload (I'm pretty decent at comboing overload), and let's just ignore my defense but I'll at least state I have 5 skills for defensive purposes (hardened, dark conversion, crit surge, bound aegis, and boundless storm) and I often use streak defensively as well. All of my sets are for Max Magicka since it benefits my damage and my defense. My only source of sustain is Torc of Tonal and dark conversion (all spell damage on jewelry, tri stat food, so no recovery there, mage mundus no recovery there), and I've learned how to synchronize those very well to maintain full damage capabilities.

I very much struggle competing against most meta tanky classes DKs, Templars, Wardens, some Necros.

Now is this because I'm a garbage player? Maybe, or is it because MagSorc is playing "scissors" against these "rock" classes?

Mag Sorc doesn't have sustained damage in it's toolkit, it's all burst oriented, and burst damage only works if it hits hard enough.

I feel like I'm doing my part in trying to make sure my toolkit can hit as hard as I can, while maintaining enough max Magicka to make my defense also viable.

I mean come on 54k Magicka, 16k penetration, and 4k spell damage is A LOT of offense, arguably more than most other full damage builds. My frags will still hit for 6k against any of those meta tanky classes, and most of my kit gets dodge rolled. So what's a MagSorc to do?

I can go full spell damage and have 0 viable defense. I can slot pets and heavy attack (snore). I guess I could go play a hybrid blood craze duel Sorc and be cheesy for 1v1 and lose most of what makes the class unique.

There is a reason why you don't see many Mag Sorcs in PvP right now. And it's not because they are a competitive class that just requires a high skill cap, it's because the ceiling is lower than other classes, and they only excel at killing incompetent players.

I can't speak on Stam Sorcs, but I don't think they are in a great spot either.

I would think of there's any way a magsorc still shines it would no-proc/no-cp, but when I can play there's no population there, so I don't go in.
Playing the way a Sorc is "supposed" to be played, in my experience, is the only way it's ever worked and that's max mag, big shields. I've tried more times than I can remember to be different and the class only gets worse from that baseline.

acastanza_ESO

Sergykid wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

I understand correctly that you were the OP, but then you were brought back to normal and now you want buffs because the other class is OP?

yes but not me, it is like that, they were op and brought back to normal and now they want buffs cuz other class is op

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How to say you've never played sorc without saying you've never played sorc.

[snip] This is not summerset anymore, the class is nowhere near as OP as you are claiming it to be, if it was, everyone would be running that class in cyro instead of NB, DK or wardens.

i did play sorc, it's disgusting.
it's not any lies or misinformation, it was op and now it's fine as i said, but other class is op doesn't mean sorc is weak, just other class need brought back to normal as sorcs were brought.

katorga wrote: »

Look at Surprise Attack vs Crystal weapon - sundered, 2974 pen vs 1000 pen. Little things like that add up.

u can have sundered effect with crystal weapon, it's separate debuffs. Also crystal weapon can be used at range. Two advantages here but yall sorcs just play victim.

also sorc with all the mobility is actually supposed to not heal like a plar

It is misinformation. It is completely disconnected from the actual current state of the game.

Sorc was not "brought back to normal", it has been completely left in the dust while every other class (except necro) has been MASSIVELY buffed. Every other class's core skills are overloaded with access to both offensive and defensive effects, buffs and debuffs. It is not ambiguous - every class has better access to buffs and debuffs than Sorcerer does.

Sorcerers are supposed to be the mobility class, yes. But the fact of the current game is that they are NOT anymore. Classes now get more sustained major expedition than Sorcerers do on better skills (warden wings - expedition, snare immunity, AND Breserk or Evasion [snip]?), and Nightblades even get passive Minor expedition when Sorcerer's access to that is reliant on actually casting a skill every 20 seconds (and Giving up their in-class Major expedition skill) - NB's just get it, always.
Every gap closer has a longer range than Streak and doesn't have escalating cost like Streak does, so you can be endlessly gapclosed by Classes that are otherwise just as fast as you (and now DKs are getting Major Breserk on their gap closer). With Celerity and Rapids, or RAT, everyone is as fast as Sorcerer, and the New Mist Form teleport is making the neglegible difference even smaller. ANYONE who says "Sorcerer is the mobility class" isn't playing the current game.
That identity is long gone.

And since its gone, the complaints about our healing NEED to be addressed.
No other class can have their burst heal turned into a bomb, runs off across half the battlefield, can be interrupted and gets stunlocked if you need to recast it, takes two bar slots, and it's not even guaranteed to heal you.

You also mention shields - our shields with battlespirit can take maybe one hit and to get that we also have to stack entirely into Max Magicka (or, I guess now, health) which leaves us with no damage because the damage scaling on max stats is objectively worse than any other option. So, you end up needing to stack two or three shields - one of which requires you to be wearing mostly light armor, and one which isn't even guaranteed to apply to you - it might go to that random next to you on a PVE build that has 17k health (and of course that one is the only shield that actually has a HOT on it). Shields are also significantly more expensive to cast than heals.
And unlike heals, which can be cast reactively and then provide a passive benefit of a reliable HOT, you have to both proactively cast shields to prevent damage (that you can't then heal, because you don't have a reliable heal), you also have to reactively cast them since the nature of their dropping in response to damage means that your shield will likely not be there when you need it. But also, the short duration means that you have to be constantly casting them to keep them up at all, even if you aren't taking damage. It is ridiculously more GCDs wasted than other classes have to deal with for their defenses.

Finally, conflating a small chance of procing a status effect off a skill with a skill that gives that effect guaranteed is ludicrous.

We constantly get told to "stop asking for nerfs!!!!!" but every time we make a thread with actual suggestions for bringing Sorcerers up to the current par, we get comments like this.

Edit: accidentally a word

[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]

ForumBully

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

I understand correctly that you were the OP, but then you were brought back to normal and now you want buffs because the other class is OP?

yes but not me, it is like that, they were op and brought back to normal and now they want buffs cuz other class is op

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How to say you've never played sorc without saying you've never played sorc.

[snip] This is not summerset anymore, the class is nowhere near as OP as you are claiming it to be, if it was, everyone would be running that class in cyro instead of NB, DK or wardens.

i did play sorc, it's disgusting.
it's not any lies or misinformation, it was op and now it's fine as i said, but other class is op doesn't mean sorc is weak, just other class need brought back to normal as sorcs were brought.

katorga wrote: »

Look at Surprise Attack vs Crystal weapon - sundered, 2974 pen vs 1000 pen. Little things like that add up.

u can have sundered effect with crystal weapon, it's separate debuffs. Also crystal weapon can be used at range. Two advantages here but yall sorcs just play victim.

also sorc with all the mobility is actually supposed to not heal like a plar

It is misinformation. It is completely disconnected from the actual current state of the game.

Sorc was not "brought back to normal", it has been completely left in the dust while every other class (except necro) has been MASSIVELY buffed. Every other class's core skills are overloaded with access to both offensive and defensive effects, buffs and debuffs. It is not ambiguous - every class has better access to buffs and debuffs than Sorcerer does.

Sorcerers are supposed to be the mobility class, yes. But the fact of the current game is that they are NOT anymore. Classes now get more sustained major expedition than Sorcerers do on better skills (warden wings - expedition, snare immunity, AND Breserk or Evasion [snip]?), and Nightblades even get passive Minor expedition when Sorcerer's access to that is reliant on actually casting a skill every 20 seconds (and Giving up their in-class Major expedition skill) - NB's just get it, always.
Every gap closer has a longer range than Streak and doesn't have escalating cost like Streak does, so you can be endlessly gapclosed by Classes that are otherwise just as fast as you (and now DKs are getting Major Breserk on their gap closer). With Celerity and Rapids, or RAT, everyone is as fast as Sorcerer, and the New Mist Form teleport is making the neglegible difference even smaller. ANYONE who says "Sorcerer is the mobility class" isn't playing the current game.
That identity is long gone.

And since its gone, the complaints about our healing NEED to be addressed.
No other class can have their burst heal turned into a bomb, runs off across half the battlefield, can be interrupted and gets stunlocked if you need to recast it, takes two bar slots, and it's even guaranteed to heal you.

You also mention shields - our shields with battlespirit can take maybe one hit and to get that we also have to stack entirely into Max Magicka (or, I guess now, health) which leaves us with no damage because the damage scaling on max stats is objectively worse than any other option. So, you end up needing to stack two or three shields - one of which requires you to be wearing mostly light armor, and one which isn't even guaranteed to apply to you - it might go to that random next to you on a PVE build that has 17k health (and of course that one is the only shield that actually has a HOT on it). Shields are also significantly more expensive to cast than heals.
And unlike heals, which can be cast reactively and then provide a passive benefit of a reliable HOT, you have to both proactively cast shields to prevent damage (that you can't then heal, because you don't have a reliable heal), you also have to reactively cast them since the nature of their dropping in response to damage means that your shield will likely not be there when you need it. But also, the short duration means that you have to be constantly casting them to keep them up at all, even if you aren't taking damage. It is ridiculously more GCDs wasted than other classes have to deal with for their defenses.

Finally, conflating a small chance of procing a status effect off a skill with a skill that gives that effect guaranteed is ludicrous.

We constantly get told to "stop asking for nerfs!!!!!" but every time we make a thread with actual suggestions for bringing Sorcerers up to the current par, we get comments like this.

Amen to all of this, especially the fact that I don't think anyone is asking to take anything away from other classes. Hopefully this can just be about buffing not nerfing.

[edited to remove quote]

AdamLAD

The people who don't want sorcs to be buffed are the people who either get destroyed by a better player on one or they played pre murkmire where its was extremely strong

ForumBully

AdamLAD wrote: »

The people who don't want sorcs to be buffed are the people who either get destroyed by a better player on one or they played pre murkmire where its was extremely strong

There was a recent little episode with Savage Werewolf that made Sorcs seem strong, but everyone should take note that the strength ended with Savage Werewolf getting nerfed.
Sorc needs a lot of work.

AdamLAD

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

Stx

I personally don’t PvP much, but my biggest issue with sorcerer that was made far worse in update 35 is the imbalance of pet damage on pve builds. No matter what build you are running in pve, stamina magicka ranged whatever. You have to run two pets plus pet ult and daedric prey. The dps this combo provides is just so far ahead of any other combination of skills it’s insane. I’ve never been a fan of playing with pets and the mega buff to Daedric prey pretty much solidified the need to.

I wish they would revert the mega buff to Daedric prey, and buff some of the other sorcerer dots or abilities.

wolfie1.0.

ForumBully wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

I understand correctly that you were the OP, but then you were brought back to normal and now you want buffs because the other class is OP?

yes but not me, it is like that, they were op and brought back to normal and now they want buffs cuz other class is op

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How to say you've never played sorc without saying you've never played sorc.

[snip] This is not summerset anymore, the class is nowhere near as OP as you are claiming it to be, if it was, everyone would be running that class in cyro instead of NB, DK or wardens.

i did play sorc, it's disgusting.
it's not any lies or misinformation, it was op and now it's fine as i said, but other class is op doesn't mean sorc is weak, just other class need brought back to normal as sorcs were brought.

katorga wrote: »

Look at Surprise Attack vs Crystal weapon - sundered, 2974 pen vs 1000 pen. Little things like that add up.

u can have sundered effect with crystal weapon, it's separate debuffs. Also crystal weapon can be used at range. Two advantages here but yall sorcs just play victim.

also sorc with all the mobility is actually supposed to not heal like a plar

Except that goes against the ZOS philosophy that all classes should be able to do all roles and bring something to the table. A sorc should be able to heal like a templar under that philosophy. Equal tool kits in value.

Saying that a templar is exceptional in healing implies that it is op and needs to come down. Or bring the sorcs up to match. Personally, I think that changing how pets work would go a long way to help the class. Rather than requiring a double bar I vote that a pet requires a single slot and had a 5 to 8 minute spawn time, with a slightly higher summon cost.

Either that or return the long absent overpower 3rd bar.

I disagree, a little. I think all classes should have a way to mitigate damage roughly equally. Sorcs used to be able to mitigate via shields on par (and in fact, better in the way way back) with Templars via healing. IMO absorbing damage is comparable to replacing health.
I wouldn't want sorcs or any class to be able to do both really well.
Sorcs ability to mitigate has fallen behind, since they can only play defense or offense but not both well.

Every class though has access to a shield via light armor tree, templars also have a shield in their tree, as well as better healing. 2 hander skill also gives a shield.

With your logic then templars should lose their shield entirely as well as access to light armor shield skill. Oh and barrier let's not forget barrier.

To be honest I am more infavor of the other 2 changes such as 1 slot timed pets or 3rd bar access. More than giving sorcs more healing.

The real problem is that with hybridization of everything then stam sorcs become way more powerful than a more magicka build, because hybridization mainly benefits those builds.

[edited to remove quote]

ForumBully

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

pvp, sorc was the easiest to play in order to accomplish high results, over time changes not just to them but more to other classes made sorcs actually put up some effort, now the same high results are still accomplishable but harder, and they don't like it. Especially when competitors like dks are now in the easy mode.
sorcs were fine but still they got wards buffed, however they still complain that not enough has been done for them, they just miss having the easy mode that dks now have

I understand correctly that you were the OP, but then you were brought back to normal and now you want buffs because the other class is OP?

yes but not me, it is like that, they were op and brought back to normal and now they want buffs cuz other class is op

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How to say you've never played sorc without saying you've never played sorc.

[snip] This is not summerset anymore, the class is nowhere near as OP as you are claiming it to be, if it was, everyone would be running that class in cyro instead of NB, DK or wardens.

i did play sorc, it's disgusting.
it's not any lies or misinformation, it was op and now it's fine as i said, but other class is op doesn't mean sorc is weak, just other class need brought back to normal as sorcs were brought.

katorga wrote: »

Look at Surprise Attack vs Crystal weapon - sundered, 2974 pen vs 1000 pen. Little things like that add up.

u can have sundered effect with crystal weapon, it's separate debuffs. Also crystal weapon can be used at range. Two advantages here but yall sorcs just play victim.

also sorc with all the mobility is actually supposed to not heal like a plar

Except that goes against the ZOS philosophy that all classes should be able to do all roles and bring something to the table. A sorc should be able to heal like a templar under that philosophy. Equal tool kits in value.

Saying that a templar is exceptional in healing implies that it is op and needs to come down. Or bring the sorcs up to match. Personally, I think that changing how pets work would go a long way to help the class. Rather than requiring a double bar I vote that a pet requires a single slot and had a 5 to 8 minute spawn time, with a slightly higher summon cost.

Either that or return the long absent overpower 3rd bar.

I disagree, a little. I think all classes should have a way to mitigate damage roughly equally. Sorcs used to be able to mitigate via shields on par (and in fact, better in the way way back) with Templars via healing. IMO absorbing damage is comparable to replacing health.
I wouldn't want sorcs or any class to be able to do both really well.
Sorcs ability to mitigate has fallen behind, since they can only play defense or offense but not both well.

Every class though has access to a shield via light armor tree, templars also have a shield in their tree, as well as better healing. 2 hander skill also gives a shield.

With your logic then templars should lose their shield entirely as well as access to light armor shield skill. Oh and barrier let's not forget barrier.

To be honest I am more infavor of the other 2 changes such as 1 slot timed pets or 3rd bar access. More than giving sorcs more healing.

The real problem is that with hybridization of everything then stam sorcs become way more powerful than a more magicka build, because hybridization mainly benefits those builds.

Maybe I don't disagree that much...ranged caster has pretty much always been Sorc to me and I don't see any other specs having much success, with the exception of maybe magblade long long ago. I also don't know if I could make use of a strong heal while also stacking shields, from a sustain perspective.
If I have the matriarch I'm usually not stacking anything with hardened ward just out of bar space necessity, but the point is taken.

I guess I'd rather have shields at some semblance of their former strength than hope that ZoS will give sorcs a heal that isn't pet based. That seems like a long shot.

[edited to remove quote]

Tannus15

Jsmalls wrote: »

Mag Sorc doesn't have sustained damage in it's toolkit, it's all burst oriented, and burst damage only works if it hits hard enough.

This is the fundamental problem with sorc, it's too binary.
either you can do enough burst damage to kill a reasonable opponent or you can't. if you can't then the whole thing is pointless.

You can see the same problem with sorc in PvE.

they are fundamentally a single target dps. frags / bound armaments, pet attacks, spammable, curse, it's pretty much all single target and no cleave. they have been balanced to have the same dps on the dummy, but since they completely lack cleave and also don't bring much support to the group, they are left behind in actual content.

For whatever reason classes have been carefully balanced around certain metrics, almost entirely single target dps, while everything else like cleave, support or healing is just left as is.

RemoryAzure

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

acastanza_ESO

RemoryAzure wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Savage werewolf carried the damage. Not the class itself and its kit mechanically. It still had these defensive issues, even in that patch. We can't even use block man xD

i was playing MAGsorc that patch and its damage was somewhat op, critdmg oakensoul build with crushing shock (+elemental catalyst 15% crit damage), crystal weapon as a burst and overload. i was carried by these 3 damage sources stacked into 1 gcd, like 15-20k actual damage per second on BG's (CW and overload could crit up to 8k both + crushing shock and its procs), even more in cyro i guess, im not playing it much. havent seen anyone doing the same thing, but i still think it was better than savage builds.

p.s. or am i messed up with updates? was savage nerfed together with oakensoul or was it nerfed with oakensoul patch?

anyway, that was the only patch i was totally happy playing sorc, even if it still had his issues with dying pet and everything

Savage WW, Crystal Weapon, and Oakensoul were all nerfed at the same time iirc.
That one patch was crazy good though, it made the absentee defensive toolkit worth tolerating simply because you actually had a reasonable (okay, maybe too good) chance of bursting down your opponent before they could run you down, attrition you out, and then curbstomp you. I fully admit that the combination there needed to be nerfed, but that was also very clearly an anomaly that was being caused specifically by overperforming sets (Mainly OG Oakensoul, and Savage Werewolf. I still think they probably didn't need to nerf both Crystal Weapon and Savage Werewolf, but ZOS is notorious for overnerfs like that).