Harmony, solo play, and synergies

FantasticFreddie

So, let's talk about it.

"Harmony:
This trait now grants you up to 880 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you activate a synergy per trait, rather than increasing the healing, damage, and shielding potency of synergies by 20% per trait.
Fixed an issue where Harmony did not interact with Companion synergies.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
This trait is currently far too niche for its intended use and is meant to be an enhancer to the Undaunted skill line and group play, but ironically is being utilized more by solo builds in PvP to instantly obliterate large groups. We’re shifting this trait over to be more recovery focused, which has much more use potential between PvE and PvP, rather than trying to continue making a value that doesn’t add more insta-gibbing potential but still has impact enough in PvE."

Emphasis mine.

Harmony is *widely* used in pvp, but, not by solo builds. In fact, there is only one solo build that is capable of utilizing Harmony traits, and you already nerfed it:
"Boneyard
Graverobber (morph): Reduced the damage of this synergy by approximately 47% to ensure it is of similar power to other synergies of its ilk, such as Conduit or Combustion."

Most people who use Harmony trait are in organized groups, using teamwork to coordinate their unique class synergies with big damage to try and combat the tank meta we have going on right now in pvp.
Harmony is NOT currently overturned, and promotes a lot of fun optimization and more importantly teamwork to effectively use in its live state.

I would strongly suggest you reconsider this change. If you want to boost the Undaunted passive go ahead, that's cool, but leave this tool in our toolbox please, it's fine as-is.

ZiggyTStardust

Î think harmony as it is now is a bit too strong, but this change bascially makes it useless

FantasticFreddie

I'm just stuck on zos thinking it's only being used on solo builds, when there is exactly one viable solo build that it works.

It requires synergies to work, a successful Harmony build takes a group effort.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

I completely agree that the reasoning they have is completely unjustified harmony is without a doubt widely used in PvP group play and is barely used on solo scenarios only with the ONE class that can use this trait. Maybe the trait is overperfoming but so is this ridiculous tank meta that is currently ongoing and without harmony this leaves coordinated groups without an option to reliable fight outnumbered in open world PvP.

Knowing ZOS they will not revert this however since their goal is to cater to pugs and zergs that spam left click on their siege for 6 hours a day and call it PvP, long gone are the days where they cared at all about the people that enjoy their actual combat system and pushing it to its limits and here they are ruining PvP outnumbered group play giving us a cheap excuse about how solo necro was too strong when all they had to do was change avid boneyard morph or just lower grave damage but instead target all of harmony it is actually quite sad they can't even acknowledge what they are actually trying to target.

All this said pugs will still die and get VDed I dont think that is changing because the skill gap between your average pug and a coordinated group of good players is still massive it will only make it slightly harder, everything this change will kill is the ability for coordinated groups to kill each other.

katorga

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

I'm just stuck on zos thinking it's only being used on solo builds, when there is exactly one viable solo build that it works.

It requires synergies to work, a successful Harmony build takes a group effort.

It is not about harmony and boneyard being used on solo builds. Note, ZOS did not apply the same logic to solo NB bomb builds. They did not apply the same logic to class agnostic bomb builds using masters 2H - which are already arguably better than Necro at bombing.

This is just one of those seemingly random class-destroying nerfs to churn the waters, anger players and stimulate migrations to a new paid class, and sales in the crown store as players try to catch their alt up to their former, now useless, main.

FantasticFreddie

katorga wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

I'm just stuck on zos thinking it's only being used on solo builds, when there is exactly one viable solo build that it works.

It requires synergies to work, a successful Harmony build takes a group effort.

It is not about harmony and boneyard being used on solo builds. Note, ZOS did not apply the same logic to solo NB bomb builds. They did not apply the same logic to class agnostic bomb builds using masters 2H - which are already arguably better than Necro at bombing.

This is just one of those seemingly random class-destroying nerfs to churn the waters, anger players and stimulate migrations to a new paid class, and sales in the crown store as players try to catch their alt up to their former, now useless, main.

They specifically mentioned harmony being over powered on solo builds in the notes, which is just bizarre. Like yeah, cro bombers are a thing, but a MUCH MORE COMMON THING is groups working together to line up synergies for their harmony bomber.

ForumBully

I don't like that Harmony and boneyard are the only things keeping Necros viable in PvP, so I don't mind seeing that one-trick pony die, but is ZoS really so blind that they don't see their AoE pulls sets are a major part of the problem?

FantasticFreddie

ForumBully wrote: »

I don't like that Harmony and boneyard are the only things keeping Necros viable in PvP, so I don't mind seeing that one-trick pony die, but is ZoS really so blind that they don't see their AoE pulls sets are a major part of the problem?

They killed THAT pony with the baseball bat nerf to boneyard synergy. No need to nuke harmony trait along with it.

ForumBully

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I don't like that Harmony and boneyard are the only things keeping Necros viable in PvP, so I don't mind seeing that one-trick pony die, but is ZoS really so blind that they don't see their AoE pulls sets are a major part of the problem?

They killed THAT pony with the baseball bat nerf to boneyard synergy. No need to nuke harmony trait along with it.

I half agree, because as I said I don't like the synergy bomb mechanic. They knew all along that Harmony was going to be a damage trait, so this "we didn't think it would be used this way" is absolute crap, it was pointed out during the PTS where it was created several times and synergy bombing has been a thing ever since. If they all the sudden don't like what they created, fine, but taking this away is going to expose just how lacking the class skills are. Blastbones, as unpredictable as they are, are all they have left.

selig_fay

I think it would be great if it reduced the cooldown of your synergies instead. I think 3 seconds per item will do more for pve than pvp. For example, this would give 2 times more resources from a necroorb.
And yes, it's still bad for singles, but I don't think it's a problem.

Thraben

Harmony nerf: a numbers game and PvP gameplay consequences.

Let's assume a PvP group has 4 different sources of coordinated damage: Proxy, Deep Fissure, non-ultimate synergies, and whirlwind.
Since proxy and whirlwind can be assumed to be constant, we only have to take a look at the relation between Deep Fissure and non-ultimate synergies.

On live servers, there are 3 synergies that can outdamage Deep Fissure when wearing Harmony: Grave-Robber, Ignite, Conduit. You could also add Combustion.

Thus, a mixed group of a DK, a Necro, and a Sorc can outperform a group of 3 Wardens.

Case 1) Normalization of Grave-Robber. Here the mixed group will still outperform the three wardens, if only by a small margin.

Case 2) Harmony Nerf. Here, the synergies do 60% less damage, and so the three wardens will easily outburst the mixed group.

Conclusion:
If all other things are equal, the Harmony nerf significantly reduces the amount of viable classes in PvP group play.

BUT...
The other classes have important support tasks not mentioned here!!!!!
In truth, only a DK has group support another Warden cannot offer, namely the damage buff and the ability to give rapids (Originally, StamSorcs provided for the speed buff, but a crafty DK can do it, too).

BUT BUT ...
A group needs great Ultimates that the warden does not have!!!!
Negates are a nice thing. Too bad they don't work on wardens, who have stamina healing and pre-loaded damage skills.
Flesh Atros are generally inferior to just stacking another warden up until you have 9 Wardens in a group.

Summary: When this patch goes live, the feared 1 DK + x Warden groups, who have driven out people of battlegrounds, will now also terrorize Cyrodiil again. As a result, groups will force their players to play Warden (again), decreasing general player retention in PvP.

monkiie

Their reasoning for removing harmony from being a damage trait shows just how out of touch they are when it comes to pvp. The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second. Necro was the only class to use harmony to solo bomb and it was a very niche playstyle that punished zerging(which is barely being played this patch). The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs.

Kaysha

monkiie wrote: »

Their reasoning for removing harmony from being a damage trait shows just how out of touch they are when it comes to pvp. The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second. Necro was the only class to use harmony to solo bomb and it was a very niche playstyle that punished zerging(which is barely being played this patch). The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs.

"The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second."
and then
"The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs."

You contradict yourself.
I think this is an attempt to take one advantage away from ball groups. And therefore I´m all for it.

monkiie

Kaysha wrote: »

monkiie wrote: »

Their reasoning for removing harmony from being a damage trait shows just how out of touch they are when it comes to pvp. The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second. Necro was the only class to use harmony to solo bomb and it was a very niche playstyle that punished zerging(which is barely being played this patch). The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs.

"The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second."
and then
"The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs."

You contradict yourself.
I think this is an attempt to take one advantage away from ball groups. And therefore I´m all for it.

Were small groups abusing harmony? No, because they have limited access to synergies but ball groups don't. Removing the trait entirely is not the solution. Yes, it's great that ball groups cant abuse it but at the expense of small group usage.

katorga

Kaysha wrote: »

monkiie wrote: »

Their reasoning for removing harmony from being a damage trait shows just how out of touch they are when it comes to pvp. The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second. Necro was the only class to use harmony to solo bomb and it was a very niche playstyle that punished zerging(which is barely being played this patch). The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs.

"The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second."
and then
"The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs."

You contradict yourself.
I think this is an attempt to take one advantage away from ball groups. And therefore I´m all for it.

The ball group IS the advantage. The skills, builds, and specifics don't matter all that much. With enough coordination, they could run around with the exact same class, build, and spam impulse and wreck uncoordinated mobs of players.

Human nature is to rationalize and optimize to do that as efficiently as possible. Ball groups will just move to the next tactic. End result, no visible impact on ball groups.

ForumBully

katorga wrote: »

Kaysha wrote: »

monkiie wrote: »

Their reasoning for removing harmony from being a damage trait shows just how out of touch they are when it comes to pvp. The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second. Necro was the only class to use harmony to solo bomb and it was a very niche playstyle that punished zerging(which is barely being played this patch). The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs.

"The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second."
and then
"The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs."

You contradict yourself.
I think this is an attempt to take one advantage away from ball groups. And therefore I´m all for it.

The ball group IS the advantage. The skills, builds, and specifics don't matter all that much. With enough coordination, they could run around with the exact same class, build, and spam impulse and wreck uncoordinated mobs of players.

Human nature is to rationalize and optimize to do that as efficiently as possible. Ball groups will just move to the next tactic. End result, no visible impact on ball groups.

Yep...plenty of pre-harmony ball groups.

Quackery

There simply needs to be a separation between PvE and PvP.

FantasticFreddie

Quackery wrote: »

There simply needs to be a separation between PvE and PvP.

While in general I agree, I don't think harmony is an example of this. Yes, you can get some high damage from a group utilizing harmony bombers and well-timed synergies. But your average build in Cyrodil is tanky, ridiculously so. Coordinated teamwork should result in high damage, otherwise why bother with a group in the first place?

robpr

Harmony was mostly utilized by synergizing Gravity Crush and Mystic Orb, sometimes Shifting Standard, not Graverobber. It was a staple of coordinated pvp both small scale and ball group, a bit sad it got destroyed because of Dark Convergence.

FantasticFreddie

robpr wrote: »

Harmony was mostly utilized by synergizing Gravity Crush and Mystic Orb, sometimes Shifting Standard, not Graverobber. It was a staple of coordinated pvp both small scale and ball group, a bit sad it got destroyed because of Dark Convergence.

Exactly. In its current form it enhances group play. Changing it to give under 900 rss back is just silly. No one will run it.

arch1t3ct

I agree with you. I can even accept the boneyardyard nerf. But nerfing both Boneyard and Harmony? It doesn't make sense to me at all. Why nerfing boneyard if harmony is already removed from the game??? Just choose one. Otherwise, it completely kills that class feature. What is even the point of the Avid Boneyard morph now if its synergy now deals less damage than any spammable and can not be boosted?

remosito

Really tempted to try it on my 5key tank builds.

ForumBully

I see some lament for both the Harmony loss and Boneyard nerf, but without Harmony was anyone still planning on Boneyard for any reason?
Seems like with Harmony gone, Boneyard is dead anyway. No Sorc is sad about not being able to hit their own Conduit synergy

FantasticFreddie

Boneyard as it is is widely used in pve.... where necro has fallen off the curve a bit in damage potential already.

Urvoth

ForumBully wrote: »

I see some lament for both the Harmony loss and Boneyard nerf, but without Harmony was anyone still planning on Boneyard for any reason?
Seems like with Harmony gone, Boneyard is dead anyway. No Sorc is sad about not being able to hit their own Conduit synergy

It's probably the leadup to a much-needed necro offensive kit rework.

BlakMarket

I fully understand why harmony is being nerfed, because synergies can/are being abused BUT WHY NERF GRAVEYARD!!!! Why throw a class and playstyle in the trash for no good reason?

Necro harmony, is not just a bomb build using dark convergence you can also play an open world builds using mech acuity/ralling balorgh for that turn and burn playstyle or dswing/harmony and dot/harmony builds.

Now you'll see necros still bombing but just spamming masters 2h, with no class identity, uniqueness and just more reasons not to play the class.

Why can we never have a somewhat balanced patch when all classes can some what compete? I dont know how ZOS seems in-touch with game but so out of touch at the same time.

BlakMarket

monkiie wrote: »

Kaysha wrote: »

monkiie wrote: »

Their reasoning for removing harmony from being a damage trait shows just how out of touch they are when it comes to pvp. The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second. Necro was the only class to use harmony to solo bomb and it was a very niche playstyle that punished zerging(which is barely being played this patch). The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs.

"The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second."
and then
"The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs."

You contradict yourself.
I think this is an attempt to take one advantage away from ball groups. And therefore I´m all for it.

Were small groups abusing harmony? No, because they have limited access to synergies but ball groups don't. Removing the trait entirely is not the solution. Yes, it's great that ball groups cant abuse it but at the expense of small group usage.

Tbh there were small scalers abusing it, but really only BG sweats in 4 man comps you'd rarely come across them open world in my experience.

BlakMarket

Kaysha wrote: »

monkiie wrote: »

Their reasoning for removing harmony from being a damage trait shows just how out of touch they are when it comes to pvp. The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second. Necro was the only class to use harmony to solo bomb and it was a very niche playstyle that punished zerging(which is barely being played this patch). The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs.

"The only people abusing harmony are ball groups rolling their mouse wheel hitting 5 synergies in one second."
and then
"The new changes only punish small groups that use harmony to fight outnumbered against big zergs."

You contradict yourself.
I think this is an attempt to take one advantage away from ball groups. And therefore I´m all for it.

I really dislike the concept on wanting to nerf ballgroups so every necro has to suffer. If they wanted to nerf ballgroups, how about simply put a 1-3 sec cool down on synergies?

Also ballgroups arent playing 24/7 they raid for 1-3 hours a few times a week, and are easily avoidable when they raid.

MurkyWetWolf198

Honestly, I like this change, because necro-bombers are a real *** in BGs. If there's one on an enemy team, there's very little counterplay to them, as they just camp in their home base or run away until their proc conditions are up, and then nuke my entire group. It's quite frustrating to play against, especially for simple-upfront melee fighters.
Personally, I don't like 2 things in PvP; players ability to do mega burst damage that has no counterplay, and players ability to burst heal through anything to nullify counterplay. I think nerfing harmony helped reduce at least one form of ridiculous burst.
Honestly, the only reason I think Nightblades have a reason not to be nerfed right now is because they need this level of power to be viable in PvE

BlakMarket

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Honestly, I like this change, because necro-bombers are a real *** in BGs. If there's one on an enemy team, there's very little counterplay to them, as they just camp in their home base or run away until their proc conditions are up, and then nuke my entire group. It's quite frustrating to play against, especially for simple-upfront melee fighters.
Personally, I don't like 2 things in PvP; players ability to do mega burst damage that has no counterplay, and players ability to burst heal through anything to nullify counterplay. I think nerfing harmony helped reduce at least one form of ridiculous burst.
Honestly, the only reason I think Nightblades have a reason not to be nerfed right now is because they need this level of power to be viable in PvE

Im a necro main, and unless youre low on stats when getting bomb holding block its literally the counter play too many people still dodge roll. Also ZOS made sets that "punish people who stack" dont nerf a class because of sets ZOS introduced.

Also damage meta's are much more fun then tanks meta's, I'd rather die and other people die, rather every fight going for 30 mins with no one dying.

MurkyWetWolf198

BlakMarket wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Honestly, I like this change, because necro-bombers are a real *** in BGs. If there's one on an enemy team, there's very little counterplay to them, as they just camp in their home base or run away until their proc conditions are up, and then nuke my entire group. It's quite frustrating to play against, especially for simple-upfront melee fighters.
Personally, I don't like 2 things in PvP; players ability to do mega burst damage that has no counterplay, and players ability to burst heal through anything to nullify counterplay. I think nerfing harmony helped reduce at least one form of ridiculous burst.
Honestly, the only reason I think Nightblades have a reason not to be nerfed right now is because they need this level of power to be viable in PvE

Im a necro main, and unless youre low on stats when getting bomb holding block its literally the counter play too many people still dodge roll. Also ZOS made sets that "punish people who stack" dont nerf a class because of sets ZOS introduced.

Also damage meta's are much more fun then tanks meta's, I'd rather die and other people die, rather every fight going for 30 mins with no one dying.

Nah, block isn't enough to survive the bombs I'm talking about. The problem is that the bombers pair DC and either VD or Plague, and when the one or 2 squishy players die, they explode and that's too much even if I have a source of Major Evasion or something.
And I agree, I much prefer Damage metas, which is why I'd appreciate some nerfs to healing and/or cross-healing. But 20k bow procs and 15k synergies against a decently defensive build is just too much. I would rather increase the base damage of all spammables, make everything deal 6-7k against even the tanky players, than have singular instances of nuclear-level damage