Major Berserk on Chains

Mrtoobyy

Pet wrote: »

I'm really glad this thread exists. I agree with the 2nd comment about how it should've just been minor berserk rather than major. This class already has too much going for it comparatively to other classes, it doesn't need something this big added to it.

Yeah I agree, who the h*ell would think major berserk would be a good idea on this class atm. Im talking about PVP cause the class surely doesn't need such a powerful buff to it.
I mean one morph refunds magicka and the other one will give Major berserk!? Major berserk is an ulti buff, 5 piece bonus or a mythic set bonus.
I really don't see the logic here

Make it so it only works in PVE or give it minor berserk or leave the skill alone.

Why do you even do changes like this ZOS?

Luede

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ease up forums. This is one of the more interesting changes in the patch notes. Let's at least try it before jumping to claims of overpowered DK.

what exactly do you want to test, how complicated is the number 10?

robpr

festegios wrote: »

i assume this annoyance is from a pvp perspecitive?

Yes. In group PvE its not needed as Sorc Atro provides this buff for the group. I use Sea-Serpent on pvp Warden and I see how much of a difference 10% is. I don't want my go-to PvE class to get nerfed later because of it.

Dr_Con

Minor force for 20sec or Major force for 5-10 sec would have been just as good.

Only people using thematic builds are really using this morph currently, it will result in many people using these chains i'm betting. Combined with the burst-tankiness of DKs, this will bee a little too much and I can see it quickly being a top complaint.

AdamLAD

So let me get this straight. DK which is already S tier in all situations now gets a streak like skill that gives them 300 weapon and spell damage plus chains that gives them major berserk.

So what they could do it, chuck on Oakensoul. Mist form away, chain someone in, pop corrosive, breath fossilise and whip them for an INSANE AMOUNT. You wouldn't need a heal as the new morph of mist heals and with battle roar oakensoul and the healing morph of whip if u choose too. Absolutely broken. So many possibilities on dk now. Busted. This is just on the top of my head

OBJnoob

DKs are gonna prebuff whip, corrosive up, chains in to somebody they weren't even fighting, and whip them out of existence. It's gonna be a very NB experience, minus the invisibility. But of course if you dodge the whip they can just try again immediately.

robpr

OBJnoob wrote: »

DKs are gonna prebuff whip, corrosive up, chains in to somebody they weren't even fighting, and whip them out of existence. It's gonna be a very NB experience, minus the invisibility. But of course if you dodge the whip they can just try again immediately.

Its even simplier. Cast FoO 2 times, pop corrosive up, chain (cannot be dodged), foss, whip.

Solariken

WTB DEVASTATING SWEEP on Templar to replace EVERLAUGHING SWEEP

Gimme some of dat Major Berserk

OBJnoob

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Here's a hot take. This is a pretty big experiment in ESO, maybe it makes sense to do it an a way that doesn't disrupt class balance at first. DK will move up on Warden and NB for sure, but I feel like it's already stronger than them. As far as I know, DK is the strongest class in the game, all roles, all content. (I don't know how to heal)

robpr wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

DKs are gonna prebuff whip, corrosive up, chains in to somebody they weren't even fighting, and whip them out of existence. It's gonna be a very NB experience, minus the invisibility. But of course if you dodge the whip they can just try again immediately.

Its even simplier. Cast FoO 2 times, pop corrosive up, chain (cannot be dodged), foss, whip.

Oh I know. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I just think it's important to note they don't have to attack who's right Infront of them anymore. And running away is no longer a viable counter to corrosive.

Mrtoobyy

The sorc shield buff seems like a good implementation for example. Not too much and adressing an identity related thing to the class.

This buff is just wrong in so many ways.
[snip]
Whoever honestly thinks DK's need Major berserk in their class toolkit tied to a gap closer?

ZOS you should take the approach as you've done with the sorc buff.
And you should not take the approach you did with jabs and Backlas if you ask me.
Well no one asked so why the [snip] do I even waste time writing crap like this...

[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]

WrathOfInnos

Luede wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ease up forums. This is one of the more interesting changes in the patch notes. Let's at least try it before jumping to claims of overpowered DK.

what exactly do you want to test, how complicated is the number 10?

If you think major berserk increases damage by a true 10% that is proving my point. Go on PTS and find out.

Luede

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ease up forums. This is one of the more interesting changes in the patch notes. Let's at least try it before jumping to claims of overpowered DK.

what exactly do you want to test, how complicated is the number 10?

If you think major berserk increases damage by a true 10% that is proving my point. Go on PTS and find out.

what exactly do you expect from the PTS? Everything not so bad after all?

it doesn't matter what the exact number is, it's a major dmg buff for a class that simply doesn't need to be changed in a positive direction at all.

what does not happen in any case is that the buff has no serious impact in pvp.

techprince

This should not go through. Every DD in PvE and PvP will slot chains just for the buff. Nightblades having a unique 10% buff was a horrible move, now they are doing the same mistake on DK.

OBJnoob

You know what this says to me really though?

Wait til you see the OP way Arcanist gets major berserk, lol. ZOS needs DKs to be able to fight against them so it doesn't look too bad

Jaraal

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Could not believe this when I read it lmao

Agreed. Instead of 50% DKs in Cyro it should bump up to 75%. I know I'll play mine a lot more with the free cheese.

Dragonlord573

I personally think that chains shouldn't get major berserk, and Wrecking Blows should keep it.

Major Berserk on Wrecking Blows makes it that, in PvP, people have to decide which is more important to them: crowd controlling people with Dizzying Swings, or a 10% damage boost with Wrecking Blows. Makes people actually have to think about their set up and what matter more to them.

Meanwhile in PvE, it'll actually make front bar two handed builds a thing instead of just everyone running duel wield with a two handed back bar. If chains give major berserk then it is just going to make duel wielding even more powerful.

TechMaybeHic

Really could care less if not for the baffling part of what they're doing to Necro and what they're not doing for templar, and how little they do for sorcs. Bottom 2 classes are either still at the bottom, or moved up slightly just because what they did to another while adding to one of the top 3. SMH

TechMaybeHic

OBJnoob wrote: »

You know what this says to me really though?

Wait til you see the OP way Arcanist gets major berserk, lol. ZOS needs DKs to be able to fight against them so it doesn't look too bad

I'm waiting for the patch cycle of complaints so that they can then say "we hear you" nerf the crap out of DK, NB, and Warden, then nothing substantial added to the other 3, and say "introducing the Arcanist ! Available in this expansion for sale now!"

Zodiarkslayer

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It's not like they're getting Major Berserk as a passive. They have to cast a low-damage, high-cost gap closer to get it for 10s. I'm guessing this will make Chains better than Stampede (despite the guaranteed crit and AoE DoT), but isn't that the way class skills vs generic should be balanced?

The voice of reason. 😅

Stinkyremy

I find it kinda funny that pretty much everyone complaining about this seem to only be thinking of DK PVP
Look at the skill it is replacing "after pulling towards a monster your next heavy attack is buffed and you move faster"
How useless is this for a DK DPS!!
Sure maybe useful for some niche HA stam DK overland PVE build, but there are much better skills to use.
If anything this is a well needed buff to make this skill actually useful for DPS.

Dragonlord573

Stinkyremy wrote: »

Sure maybe useful for some niche HA stam DK overland PVE build, but there are much better skills to use.

Even then any heavy attack build that is actually good uses oakensoul for 100% uptime on empower which actually can make them good too. The duration of empowering on empowering chains was am actual joke.

propertyOfUndefined

DKs won't even have to chase a target around and try to land a Wrecking Blow, or deal with a 40% snare from Sea Serpents Coil. No... they just have to cast chains to get their Major Berserk...

Tannus15

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

Pet wrote: »

I'm really glad this thread exists. I agree with the 2nd comment about how it should've just been minor berserk rather than major. This class already has too much going for it comparatively to other classes, it doesn't need something this big added to it.

Yeah I agree, who the h*ell would think major berserk would be a good idea on this class atm. Im talking about PVP cause the class surely doesn't need such a powerful buff to it.
I mean one morph refunds magicka and the other one will give Major berserk!? Major berserk is an ulti buff, 5 piece bonus or a mythic set bonus.
I really don't see the logic here

Make it so it only works in PVE or give it minor berserk or leave the skill alone.

Why do you even do changes like this ZOS?

it's funny that all the PvP people keep saying "it's OP in PvP, don't do it! keep it for PvE if you want it!".

this is what a top end group looks like in PvE right now



PvE people don't want it either. The last thing dk need is one of the strongest and rarest buffs in the game.

WrathOfInnos

Luede wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ease up forums. This is one of the more interesting changes in the patch notes. Let's at least try it before jumping to claims of overpowered DK.

what exactly do you want to test, how complicated is the number 10?

If you think major berserk increases damage by a true 10% that is proving my point. Go on PTS and find out.

what exactly do you expect from the PTS? Everything not so bad after all?

it doesn't matter what the exact number is, it's a major dmg buff for a class that simply doesn't need to be changed in a positive direction at all.

what does not happen in any case is that the buff has no serious impact in pvp.

That depends. What skill you are giving up to slot the new chains? If it's something like Venomous Claw then replacing it with chains may not even increase damage. Or maybe you're replacing a passive skill like Camo Hunter, which means losing 3% weapon damage (about 1.5-2% DPS), some ult gen, easy access to Minor Berserk (~3-4% DPS) and Major Prophecy/Savagery (~8% DPS) and the ability to reveal hidden enemies. Be sure to subtract that out from the perceived benefit of the new Chains. Is the change positive or negative?

What buffs do you already have active? This makes a massive difference in the effect of Major Berserk. On a naked, no CP, unbuffed, no sets, no passives it is 10%. On a fully buffed damage setup it is more like 4-6%. That is before considering the loss of a bar slot and a GCD every 10s. It's would be an assumption to say that chains is absolutely a damage increase in PvE or PvP, without much more information.

This is a buff for anyone that was already using Empowering Chains as their gap closer. For anyone else it is not a straightforward answer.

The_Titan_Tim

Urzigurumash wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

And for the record Mr. Mash I do agree with you that thematically it makes sense to put on that skill. For the reasons you said and also for the reasons they gave in the patch notes. But balance-wise it's... Yup, you guessed it, lunacy.

Yeah, it definitely makes sense as the in-class source. Without Sorc/Templar/Necro getting easier access to it, to me putting it on the already S+ class might not exactly be lunacy, because it doesn't change anything in PvP. You want to mop up you pick DK. You want to play something skillful and challenging you play Sorc or Necro. It's a major reversal from say 2019 when it was the exact opposite, at some point PetSorcs used to seemingly mop up AFK, but that's some sort of balance too isn't it.

This will let it be easily studied - exactly how much more OP did DK become? Did the class go from winning 95% of encounters to 99% or not? Was my postulated "Oakensoul Lesson" complete nonsense or not?

Still I vote for giving it to Sorc/Templar/Necro and maybe a little juice for Reaper's Mark, maybe not.

You had me until you said Major Berserk and Reaper’s Mark.

Tannus15

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ease up forums. This is one of the more interesting changes in the patch notes. Let's at least try it before jumping to claims of overpowered DK.

what exactly do you want to test, how complicated is the number 10?

If you think major berserk increases damage by a true 10% that is proving my point. Go on PTS and find out.

what exactly do you expect from the PTS? Everything not so bad after all?

it doesn't matter what the exact number is, it's a major dmg buff for a class that simply doesn't need to be changed in a positive direction at all.

what does not happen in any case is that the buff has no serious impact in pvp.

That depends. What skill you are giving up to slot the new chains? If it's something like Venomous Claw then replacing it with chains may not even increase damage. Or maybe you're replacing a passive skill like Camo Hunter, which means losing 3% weapon damage (about 1.5-2% DPS), some ult gen, easy access to Minor Berserk (~3-4% DPS) and Major Prophecy/Savagery (~8% DPS) and the ability to reveal hidden enemies. Be sure to subtract that out from the perceived benefit of the new Chains. Is the change positive or negative?

What buffs do you already have active? This makes a massive difference in the effect of Major Berserk. On a naked, no CP, unbuffed, no sets, no passives it is 10%. On a fully buffed damage setup it is more like 4-6%. That is before considering the loss of a bar slot and a GCD every 10s. It's would be an assumption to say that chains is absolutely a damage increase in PvE or PvP, without much more information.

This is a buff for anyone that was already using Empowering Chains as their gap closer. For anyone else it is not a straightforward answer.

i see what you're saying, but 10% damage from a backbar skill and you GAIN a gap closer on a class that's already using melee front bar is a no brainer.

here is a skill setup from vDSR HM



10% damage done is worth way WAY more than 3% weapon damage for backbar only. The ult gen is supplied by trap.

It's also no surprise to anyone that the composition for this group looks like this:



DK's do not need this buff. Make it minor berserk.

WrathOfInnos

Tannus15 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ease up forums. This is one of the more interesting changes in the patch notes. Let's at least try it before jumping to claims of overpowered DK.

what exactly do you want to test, how complicated is the number 10?

If you think major berserk increases damage by a true 10% that is proving my point. Go on PTS and find out.

what exactly do you expect from the PTS? Everything not so bad after all?

it doesn't matter what the exact number is, it's a major dmg buff for a class that simply doesn't need to be changed in a positive direction at all.

what does not happen in any case is that the buff has no serious impact in pvp.

That depends. What skill you are giving up to slot the new chains? If it's something like Venomous Claw then replacing it with chains may not even increase damage. Or maybe you're replacing a passive skill like Camo Hunter, which means losing 3% weapon damage (about 1.5-2% DPS), some ult gen, easy access to Minor Berserk (~3-4% DPS) and Major Prophecy/Savagery (~8% DPS) and the ability to reveal hidden enemies. Be sure to subtract that out from the perceived benefit of the new Chains. Is the change positive or negative?

What buffs do you already have active? This makes a massive difference in the effect of Major Berserk. On a naked, no CP, unbuffed, no sets, no passives it is 10%. On a fully buffed damage setup it is more like 4-6%. That is before considering the loss of a bar slot and a GCD every 10s. It's would be an assumption to say that chains is absolutely a damage increase in PvE or PvP, without much more information.

This is a buff for anyone that was already using Empowering Chains as their gap closer. For anyone else it is not a straightforward answer.

i see what you're saying, but 10% damage from a backbar skill and you GAIN a gap closer on a class that's already using melee front bar is a no brainer.

here is a skill setup from vDSR HM



10% damage done is worth way WAY more than 3% weapon damage for backbar only. The ult gen is supplied by trap.

It's also no surprise to anyone that the composition for this group looks like this:



DK's do not need this buff. Make it minor berserk.

Minor berserk would be too weak, it's so easily obtained by combat prayer, camo hunter, or even oakensoul.

The gap closer could be nice, and may allow Chains + Blockade to replace Carve + Stampede, allowing DK to be free from 2h.

I'm not convinced chains will be meta though. In the skill bar example above, Camo Hunter is necessary back bar for the Major Savagery. Replacing this is about 8% DPS loss while on back bar in addition to the 2% DPS from 3% weapon damage. Let's say 25% of damage is done while on back bar, removing Camo Hunter could easily be 2.5% damage loss eating into the benefit of Major Berserk, or much more if you're not getting good combat prayer uptimes.

I suspect that if players do slot chains it will be front bar to proc Molten Whip. In that case what is being given up? Deadly Cloak? That cannot be moved to back bar. Or maybe a different Ardent Flame skill? Any choice has negative consequences.

Now consider the effect of casting chains every 10s. Even if it's just replacing a Whip cast (not a DoT, best case scenario), that chain is going to average around 23k, where Molten Whip would average 45k. That means 22k damage lost every 10s, or 2.2k DPS given up to get Major Berserk. Maybe that's only 2% of a 110k parse, but all these small losses start to add up.

Then there's the issue of group composition. If you have any Sorcerer allies they already give some Major Berserk. Sure it's only about 15% uptime from one Sorc, but that is directly removing 15% of the benefit of chains.

Overall I'm not saying it will be weak. Just pointing out that there are a lot of variables that need to be considered. It is far from the 10% damage boost some are claiming, and I'd be surprised if it resulted in a net gain of more than a couple %, if any gain at all. The only way we'll truly know is thorough testing in all environments.

I do appreciate the devs identifying a useless morph and giving it a buff to become potentially interesting. DK may be a strange place to start, but it's a good sign and I hope they do the same for many classes and skills.

Tannus15

@WrathOfInnos to continue to nitpick though, if a sorc drops an atro and a dk happens to get the buff (not a certainty) then they can skip a chains cast and regain that spammable damage.

you're also ignoring the 6% damage buff of major berserk while on the backbar so now we're talking ~2% damage loss for 25% of the fight and 6% damage increase for 75% of the fight for the cost of half the damage of a spammable every 10 seconds.

Anyway you want to run the math on this it's a dps increase combined with a functionality increase (if running staff like the build i screenshotted) with the only real downside as far as i can see being the extra mag cost. in fact the only time i can think of you might not want to run this skill is if you actively don't want a gap closer.

chains is useful, it does damage and you can slot it on backbar and get full benefit. I'm confident that in the days to come we'll see DK parses that are doing exactly that.

MurkyWetWolf198

Why don't we see how this actually performs on PTS before damning it? Personally, I think extra sources of damage are usually a good thing, as we really have a problem with healing meta in current PvP

MurkyWetWolf198

Honestly, I don't really feel like DKs are OP currently, and maybe they'd be fine with this buff. Honestly, the only thing that's too powerful in current meta is NB burst with 20k bow procs.
I think that the buff to DK is fine. It isn't gonna break the meta, many DKs already get Major Berserk from Sea Serpent's. Honestly, big sources of power like this should be given to every class (and maybe rework Concealed weapon to be Major Berserk instead of a unique buff) so that every class feels actually fun to play and not like a wet noodle