Arcanist: New class vs New skill line

The_Titan_Tim · January 2023

Yes, we would rather have a 3 new skill lines for arcanist

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

The closed class system sounded not very The Elder Scrolls to begin with.

Yet moreover without a way to change class for a given character, well yeah I'd take the 3-skill-lines option by far

I mean it is. Because Skyrim's the only one without classes. Just ESO is giving something unique to classes that TES failed to do anything with since TES never did unique spells or abilities.

Interesting perspective, look at the massive success of that game and of current ones like Elden Ring that have classes aswell… they only give you starting equipment and base stat increases and actually determine nothing for your character… you build your character as you play.

Skyrim and Elden Ring some of the only widely viewed 10/10 games we’ve received, both winning Game of the Year amidst decent competition.

Elden Ring and Skyrim are popular has nothing to do with classes but how easy the game is to get into.
Elden Ring is the easiest Souls games and Skyrim is the easiest game to get into TES wise (TES4s terrible scaling forcing a min-max approach, TES3s dice roll combat and Arena and Daggerfall being very dated in terms of movement and combat) the exitance or nonexistence of classes have no affect on it.

You referred to every TES game’s attempt at classing as a failure prior to ESO. If these games failed in this regard, why is it that it’s the first time I’m hearing of it?

Last I checked, Oblivion, a game that had classes, nothing like what we have now, but prior to ESO, is widely viewed as one of the best games of all time.

Don’t believe me? Look at the reactions to the Skyblivion trailer that was recently released… and that’s not even being shipped, it’s a mod.

KingArthasMenethil · January 2023

No, I would like a whole new class to start over with

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

The closed class system sounded not very The Elder Scrolls to begin with.

Yet moreover without a way to change class for a given character, well yeah I'd take the 3-skill-lines option by far

I mean it is. Because Skyrim's the only one without classes. Just ESO is giving something unique to classes that TES failed to do anything with since TES never did unique spells or abilities.

Interesting perspective, look at the massive success of that game and of current ones like Elden Ring that have classes aswell… they only give you starting equipment and base stat increases and actually determine nothing for your character… you build your character as you play.

Skyrim and Elden Ring some of the only widely viewed 10/10 games we’ve received, both winning Game of the Year amidst decent competition.

Elden Ring and Skyrim are popular has nothing to do with classes but how easy the game is to get into.
Elden Ring is the easiest Souls games and Skyrim is the easiest game to get into TES wise (TES4s terrible scaling forcing a min-max approach, TES3s dice roll combat and Arena and Daggerfall being very dated in terms of movement and combat) the exitance or nonexistence of classes have no affect on it.

You referred to every TES game’s attempt at classing as a failure prior to ESO. If these games failed in this regard, why is it that it’s the first time I’m hearing of it?

Last I checked, Oblivion, a game that had classes, nothing like what we have now, but prior to ESO, is widely viewed as one of the best games of all time.

Don’t believe me? Look at the reactions to the Skyblivion trailer that was recently released… and that’s not even being shipped, it’s a mod.

For Oblivion people are not looking at the combat same with Skyrim which should tell you how little they remember the combat as they instead remember the quests and the exploration. Oblivion has the issue of the games enemy scaling that goes a bit mad to the point you have to min/max otherwise as you level up everything you fight turns into a sponge because they'll have too much health which is an issue with how TES4 did its enemy scaling (which I need to remember to track a mod for that If I ever want to go back to it).

I said they failed to do anything with the classes which is true as they did nothing outside of levelling as outside of levelling you don't pay attention to it because there's no reason to since it only handles levelling and doesn't do anything else like you'd see in other games with classes. You don't get stat boosts, you don't unique spells and you don't anything special from it like no one calls you a Battlemage and no one calls you a Knight based on your class like there's nothing to remember class wise until ESO where the Templars of Stendarr are using their holy magic to heal and fight others, Where Necromancers are using magic to make armour and weapons out of corpses, where the Arcanists of Hermaeus Mora are using their Demonic magic to destroy people, Where the Dragonknights use their Akaviri arts against people and etc.

My issues with TES's classes is Bethesda not doing anything with them like what ESO has done with classes. Because ESO has brought in unique parts to classes and greatly expanded on magic like I listed above to use while in every single player TES game you just get a generic amount of spells that are not unique to anyone. As they didn't really make unique spells that often Skyrim added a few raise dead spells but nothing on the level of the Necromancer class Necromancy wise and Dawnguard added a few sun spells but nothing on the level of the Templar class.

Bobargus · January 2023

Yes, we would rather have a 3 new skill lines for arcanist

In my oinion, if this Arcanist class was presented as another line of skills that could be learned with any character that already exists, just like how the Psijic order skill line works, then everything would be fine.

Or, if a Final Fantasy style class system could be added that would allow existing characters to change their classes freely and without any further need, then it would also be okay.

But things as they are, it is not ok.

Grandsheba · January 2023

Yes, we would rather have a 3 new skill lines for arcanist

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

The closed class system sounded not very The Elder Scrolls to begin with.

Yet moreover without a way to change class for a given character, well yeah I'd take the 3-skill-lines option by far

I mean it is. Because Skyrim's the only one without classes. Just ESO is giving something unique to classes that TES failed to do anything with since TES never did unique spells or abilities.

Interesting perspective, look at the massive success of that game and of current ones like Elden Ring that have classes aswell… they only give you starting equipment and base stat increases and actually determine nothing for your character… you build your character as you play.

Skyrim and Elden Ring some of the only widely viewed 10/10 games we’ve received, both winning Game of the Year amidst decent competition.

Elden Ring and Skyrim are popular has nothing to do with classes but how easy the game is to get into.
Elden Ring is the easiest Souls games and Skyrim is the easiest game to get into TES wise (TES4s terrible scaling forcing a min-max approach, TES3s dice roll combat and Arena and Daggerfall being very dated in terms of movement and combat) the exitance or nonexistence of classes have no affect on it.

You referred to every TES game’s attempt at classing as a failure prior to ESO. If these games failed in this regard, why is it that it’s the first time I’m hearing of it?

Last I checked, Oblivion, a game that had classes, nothing like what we have now, but prior to ESO, is widely viewed as one of the best games of all time.

Don’t believe me? Look at the reactions to the Skyblivion trailer that was recently released… and that’s not even being shipped, it’s a mod.

For Oblivion people are not looking at the combat same with Skyrim which should tell you how little they remember the combat as they instead remember the quests and the exploration. Oblivion has the issue of the games enemy scaling that goes a bit mad to the point you have to min/max otherwise as you level up everything you fight turns into a sponge because they'll have too much health which is an issue with how TES4 did its enemy scaling (which I need to remember to track a mod for that If I ever want to go back to it).

I said they failed to do anything with the classes which is true as they did nothing outside of levelling as outside of levelling you don't pay attention to it because there's no reason to since it only handles levelling and doesn't do anything else like you'd see in other games with classes. You don't get stat boosts, you don't unique spells and you don't anything special from it like no one calls you a Battlemage and no one calls you a Knight based on your class like there's nothing to remember class wise until ESO where the Templars of Stendarr are using their holy magic to heal and fight others, Where Necromancers are using magic to make armour and weapons out of corpses, where the Arcanists of Hermaeus Mora are using their Demonic magic to destroy people, Where the Dragonknights use their Akaviri arts against people and etc.

My issues with TES's classes is Bethesda not doing anything with them like what ESO has done with classes. Because ESO has brought in unique parts to classes and greatly expanded on magic like I listed above to use while in every single player TES game you just get a generic amount of spells that are not unique to anyone. As they didn't really make unique spells that often Skyrim added a few raise dead spells but nothing on the level of the Necromancer class Necromancy wise and Dawnguard added a few sun spells but nothing on the level of the Templar class.

What are you talking about??? YOU failed to make a good class, the game gave you all the ingredients to create your own class. The only class like system they had was the cp and the vampire/ werewolf skills. Everything else was OPEN WORLD RPG. You could learn. It all and use it as you felt with out NEEDING a new character. If you wanted one cool make one but you did not NEED one to advance to dawn guard or dragonborn. That is the point, not how a game popular for over a decade still being played to be a reference and still having new content released moght have needed more magic to you...because choose not to add more magic..

[snip] Go on YouTube, go to the wiki, go to the skills menu and let them tell you what to pick and there you go. [snip] Those of us that love that ESO wants us to
"Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armorSlot abilities from any skill line you've discovered"Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc." We are lookong fornthem to truly embrace that level of...."freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes."

[edited for baiting]

Grandsheba · January 2023

Yes, we would rather have a 3 new skill lines for arcanist

peacenote wrote: »

I would much rather have a new class over new skill lines.

One, because too many skill lines dilute the classes and where the class skills fit. I like class identity.

Here is an example: It was such a bummer (for me) when the healing "orb" became the best synergy to use as a healer because I'd prefer the direction be that each class has a specialized thing to bring to each role so they feel unique. Shards went from being something of value a templar healer could bring, to not even making the cut as primary toolkit for templar healer. If you look at Healer Haven's (ESO healing discord) basic setup for templars only three class skills make the cut as important. The class feels so diluted compared to back in the day when Shards and Breath of Life were BIS to bring.

Two, because I enjoy creating alts, leveling them, and basically "starting my game over." It is not as fun now, after the AwA changes, but it at least brings back the feeling of a reason to do it.

Grandsheba wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno, do you feel this is a feasible to have done for players to have more freedom and choice in this RPG? As well as opening up a reason for old players to return to the game to explore a new skill line comprised of 3 unique skill lines

The arcanist skill line:
Apocryphal Soldier

Curative Runeforms

Herald of the Tome

Each providing what they normally would but open to all players similar to vampire or psijic skill lines. Falling more inline with the lore as well with how Herma Mora augments and expanes his patrons ability like the first and last dragon born had their abilities augmented and expanded instead of becoming a whole new class.

The beauty of the franchise TES is the open rpg aspect of choice. The removal of classes and the ability to choose if one wants to start over with a new build or expand their current build with new abilities, armor sets such as miiraks set, or other spells like ash tomes and ect.

Please give this poll a review and the post a consideration for a more inclusive new chapter, thank you.

Since you chose to do an "@" to Gina I feel obligated to point out that the poll is pretty close, that I would hate a classless ESO, and that there are people out there like me who would not consider this an inclusive change but actually something that would take yet another thing out of ESO that I currently enjoy, excluding me and others like me.

Of course more people voting on the forums are now picking new skill line over new class. This is because U33 / AwA caused a lot of people who loved playing alts to outright quit because they didn't want to compromise with what was left. Therefore it's obvious people who don't enjoy starting over would now be the higher majority perspective of those who haven't left. I still have friends in the game, so I didn't quit, but let's not forget that if this was done pre-AwA the numbers in this poll would likely look different and killing class identity might be the last straw for some of us who chose to stay despite the damage that was done to playing alts in U33. It is pretty ironic that the announcement of the new class (which I have no doubt the team has likely been working on for a very long time, and truly believed mose people would be excited about) would have been more enthusiastically received if U33 hadn't happened. Even more ironic because AwA did not change the fact that lots of people are still saying "no thanks without a class change token." They are, as we can all see. Even more vocally, because the people who have a playstyle who would want one are the ones that stuck around. It's just that now there are less people overall who would be happy for a new class without a change token. AwA didn't solve the leveling grind problem at all; it just chased away the people who would have wanted to make an alt of each type for the new class. Talk about getting the big picture and strategy backwards. And I think there's at least a 50% chance that the new class was designed and being created even before U33 was implemented (I know it's definitely a lot of work!).

I truly believe that the most inclusive solution would be if, at the same time as the new class release, ZOS also did these things:
Introduce a class change token

Fix map completion/exploration for alts to not be the broken, no logic situation it is now

Introduce a character progress journal which would support the map completion fixes and restore the ability for interested individuals to re-do challenges that were made account-wide achievements on new characters, and track that progress in-game.

These three items, together, would allow people who don't want to level something new to swap classes (and swap back) as they please, and allow people who like alts to have some functionality restored to make it more enjoyable, and ensure one of the reasons to make new characters (trying different classes) remained intact. It covers the "I-don't-want-to-re-do things" people and the "I-like-reasons-to-to-re-do-things" people. Removing classes altogether would make one side happy and further alienate others, which is not a good idea at all and the opposite of inclusion. Not to mention that it would be best for the longevity of the game if ZOS did something to attract the players that quit over AwA to come back, as opposed to doubling down on strategies that would further cement their decisions to leave ESO. It's also better because the people who like to make alts and start over are likely to stick with the game longer because it's a lot more never-ending for those folks than people who only want to do everything once.

Anyway, I'm excited we're getting a new class, but I would be even more excited if ZOS had the capacity and foresight and willingness to do the three things I mentioned at the same time. Or at least announce they are coming at some point, to encourage people to make characters and try the class and learn it when it comes out.

[/quote]Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armorSlot abilities from any skill line you've discovered"Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.[/quote]

Have you ever played any of the elderscrolls games? You and the vast majority of the people choosing pre-made classes are talking about how you want others to play
Vs everyone else just wanting people to have the option to play how they want. We get it yoi want to make a *** tone of character, this change in no way impedes that at all. The devs stated their goal right above. Do what ever you want but dotn try to force others to play your way, make what ever class you want, make as many characters as they allow, spend as much money as you want to class changes and name tokens or alliances as you feel. That's your choice! But ours, fans of the series that look yo this talk of "play hoe you want" are looking to do just that with the addition of the Arcanist's 3 skill lines introduced as an inclusive guild class that ANYONE can have access to. Regardless if they choose to make a new character, make your own class, or whatever. Class identity it's not your choice. But the players, to self identify, if a player chooses a templar but doesn't choose any of the templar skills or passives and only chooses the werewolf and mages guild skills then what? Are they a templar, did they create an imbalance in the game, are they now some how stronger than everyone in the game? NO, they simply "played how they wanted" which means not how you perfer, which is fine! Hold your own controller not anyone else's. It's crazy how hard it is to get equality in anything.

We just want the game to be full of these equal, quality standards:

[/quote]We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.[/quote] @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Dark_Lord_Kuro · January 2023

No, I would like a whole new class to start over with

Grandsheba wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I would much rather have a new class over new skill lines.

One, because too many skill lines dilute the classes and where the class skills fit. I like class identity.

Here is an example: It was such a bummer (for me) when the healing "orb" became the best synergy to use as a healer because I'd prefer the direction be that each class has a specialized thing to bring to each role so they feel unique. Shards went from being something of value a templar healer could bring, to not even making the cut as primary toolkit for templar healer. If you look at Healer Haven's (ESO healing discord) basic setup for templars only three class skills make the cut as important. The class feels so diluted compared to back in the day when Shards and Breath of Life were BIS to bring.

Two, because I enjoy creating alts, leveling them, and basically "starting my game over." It is not as fun now, after the AwA changes, but it at least brings back the feeling of a reason to do it.

Grandsheba wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno, do you feel this is a feasible to have done for players to have more freedom and choice in this RPG? As well as opening up a reason for old players to return to the game to explore a new skill line comprised of 3 unique skill lines

The arcanist skill line:
Apocryphal Soldier

Curative Runeforms

Herald of the Tome

Each providing what they normally would but open to all players similar to vampire or psijic skill lines. Falling more inline with the lore as well with how Herma Mora augments and expanes his patrons ability like the first and last dragon born had their abilities augmented and expanded instead of becoming a whole new class.

The beauty of the franchise TES is the open rpg aspect of choice. The removal of classes and the ability to choose if one wants to start over with a new build or expand their current build with new abilities, armor sets such as miiraks set, or other spells like ash tomes and ect.

Please give this poll a review and the post a consideration for a more inclusive new chapter, thank you.

Since you chose to do an "@" to Gina I feel obligated to point out that the poll is pretty close, that I would hate a classless ESO, and that there are people out there like me who would not consider this an inclusive change but actually something that would take yet another thing out of ESO that I currently enjoy, excluding me and others like me.

Of course more people voting on the forums are now picking new skill line over new class. This is because U33 / AwA caused a lot of people who loved playing alts to outright quit because they didn't want to compromise with what was left. Therefore it's obvious people who don't enjoy starting over would now be the higher majority perspective of those who haven't left. I still have friends in the game, so I didn't quit, but let's not forget that if this was done pre-AwA the numbers in this poll would likely look different and killing class identity might be the last straw for some of us who chose to stay despite the damage that was done to playing alts in U33. It is pretty ironic that the announcement of the new class (which I have no doubt the team has likely been working on for a very long time, and truly believed mose people would be excited about) would have been more enthusiastically received if U33 hadn't happened. Even more ironic because AwA did not change the fact that lots of people are still saying "no thanks without a class change token." They are, as we can all see. Even more vocally, because the people who have a playstyle who would want one are the ones that stuck around. It's just that now there are less people overall who would be happy for a new class without a change token. AwA didn't solve the leveling grind problem at all; it just chased away the people who would have wanted to make an alt of each type for the new class. Talk about getting the big picture and strategy backwards. And I think there's at least a 50% chance that the new class was designed and being created even before U33 was implemented (I know it's definitely a lot of work!).

I truly believe that the most inclusive solution would be if, at the same time as the new class release, ZOS also did these things:
Introduce a class change token

Fix map completion/exploration for alts to not be the broken, no logic situation it is now

Introduce a character progress journal which would support the map completion fixes and restore the ability for interested individuals to re-do challenges that were made account-wide achievements on new characters, and track that progress in-game.

These three items, together, would allow people who don't want to level something new to swap classes (and swap back) as they please, and allow people who like alts to have some functionality restored to make it more enjoyable, and ensure one of the reasons to make new characters (trying different classes) remained intact. It covers the "I-don't-want-to-re-do things" people and the "I-like-reasons-to-to-re-do-things" people. Removing classes altogether would make one side happy and further alienate others, which is not a good idea at all and the opposite of inclusion. Not to mention that it would be best for the longevity of the game if ZOS did something to attract the players that quit over AwA to come back, as opposed to doubling down on strategies that would further cement their decisions to leave ESO. It's also better because the people who like to make alts and start over are likely to stick with the game longer because it's a lot more never-ending for those folks than people who only want to do everything once.

Anyway, I'm excited we're getting a new class, but I would be even more excited if ZOS had the capacity and foresight and willingness to do the three things I mentioned at the same time. Or at least announce they are coming at some point, to encourage people to make characters and try the class and learn it when it comes out.

Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armorSlot abilities from any skill line you've discovered"Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.[/quote]

Have you ever played any of the elderscrolls games? You and the vast majority of the people choosing pre-made classes are talking about how you want others to play
Vs everyone else just wanting people to have the option to play how they want. We get it yoi want to make a *** tone of character, this change in no way impedes that at all. The devs stated their goal right above. Do what ever you want but dotn try to force others to play your way, make what ever class you want, make as many characters as they allow, spend as much money as you want to class changes and name tokens or alliances as you feel. That's your choice! But ours, fans of the series that look yo this talk of "play hoe you want" are looking to do just that with the addition of the Arcanist's 3 skill lines introduced as an inclusive guild class that ANYONE can have access to. Regardless if they choose to make a new character, make your own class, or whatever. Class identity it's not your choice. But the players, to self identify, if a player chooses a templar but doesn't choose any of the templar skills or passives and only chooses the werewolf and mages guild skills then what? Are they a templar, did they create an imbalance in the game, are they now some how stronger than everyone in the game? NO, they simply "played how they wanted" which means not how you perfer, which is fine! Hold your own controller not anyone else's. It's crazy how hard it is to get equality in anything.

We just want the game to be full of these equal, quality standards:

[/quote]We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.[/quote] @ZOS_BrianWheeler [/quote]

That templar would voluntarely weaken his character by not chosing templar passive and therefore not be on equal standing with someone who would play both his templar skill/passive and those of the arcanist wich make playing as an arcanist a completly useless thing to do. Arcanist is better as a class

I dont minfd getting new skill line but it shoulnd come as a cost of loosing an announced feature lot of people wanted

mdb800 · January 2023

It would be a great benefit to remove the time from physically showing up in an battle animation to stay lore friendly and keep the logic of battle.

Dr_Con · January 2023

This is a terribly worded poll.

heaven13 · January 2023

TheValkyn wrote: »

ESO is a role-playing game at its core. Each character is different. Really, this is the best option in the absence of a class switch token that would solve most folk's issue with rerolling while still respecting that others might want an entirely new class.

If AwA wasn't a thing (or at least not the thing it actually is), I'd be inclined to agree with you. However, accountwide achievements really killed my desire to play most of my characters so the idea of starting a new one and having maps broken and achievements completed already feels more like a grind to me to get it to endgame than a truly meaningful experience of playing a new character.

WiseSky · January 2023

No, I would like a whole new class to start over with

last thing I wanted was a class....

And then they presented the best class yet

AzuraFan · January 2023

No, I would like a whole new class to start over with

I'd never use new skills lines with my main, so for me a new class is the much better option.

peacenote · January 2023

No, I would like a whole new class to start over with

Grandsheba wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I would much rather have a new class over new skill lines.

One, because too many skill lines dilute the classes and where the class skills fit. I like class identity.

Here is an example: It was such a bummer (for me) when the healing "orb" became the best synergy to use as a healer because I'd prefer the direction be that each class has a specialized thing to bring to each role so they feel unique. Shards went from being something of value a templar healer could bring, to not even making the cut as primary toolkit for templar healer. If you look at Healer Haven's (ESO healing discord) basic setup for templars only three class skills make the cut as important. The class feels so diluted compared to back in the day when Shards and Breath of Life were BIS to bring.

Two, because I enjoy creating alts, leveling them, and basically "starting my game over." It is not as fun now, after the AwA changes, but it at least brings back the feeling of a reason to do it.

Grandsheba wrote: »

[@ZOS_GinaBruno, do you feel this is a feasible to have done for players to have more freedom and choice in this RPG? As well as opening up a reason for old players to return to the game to explore a new skill line comprised of 3 unique skill lines

The arcanist skill line:
Apocryphal Soldier

Curative Runeforms

Herald of the Tome

Each providing what they normally would but open to all players similar to vampire or psijic skill lines. Falling more inline with the lore as well with how Herma Mora augments and expanes his patrons ability like the first and last dragon born had their abilities augmented and expanded instead of becoming a whole new class.

The beauty of the franchise TES is the open rpg aspect of choice. The removal of classes and the ability to choose if one wants to start over with a new build or expand their current build with new abilities, armor sets such as miiraks set, or other spells like ash tomes and ect.

Please give this poll a review and the post a consideration for a more inclusive new chapter, thank you.

peacenote wrote: »

Since you chose to do an "@" to Gina I feel obligated to point out that the poll is pretty close, that I would hate a classless ESO, and that there are people out there like me who would not consider this an inclusive change but actually something that would take yet another thing out of ESO that I currently enjoy, excluding me and others like me.

Of course more people voting on the forums are now picking new skill line over new class. This is because U33 / AwA caused a lot of people who loved playing alts to outright quit because they didn't want to compromise with what was left. Therefore it's obvious people who don't enjoy starting over would now be the higher majority perspective of those who haven't left. I still have friends in the game, so I didn't quit, but let's not forget that if this was done pre-AwA the numbers in this poll would likely look different and killing class identity might be the last straw for some of us who chose to stay despite the damage that was done to playing alts in U33. It is pretty ironic that the announcement of the new class (which I have no doubt the team has likely been working on for a very long time, and truly believed mose people would be excited about) would have been more enthusiastically received if U33 hadn't happened. Even more ironic because AwA did not change the fact that lots of people are still saying "no thanks without a class change token." They are, as we can all see. Even more vocally, because the people who have a playstyle who would want one are the ones that stuck around. It's just that now there are less people overall who would be happy for a new class without a change token. AwA didn't solve the leveling grind problem at all; it just chased away the people who would have wanted to make an alt of each type for the new class. Talk about getting the big picture and strategy backwards. And I think there's at least a 50% chance that the new class was designed and being created even before U33 was implemented (I know it's definitely a lot of work!).

I truly believe that the most inclusive solution would be if, at the same time as the new class release, ZOS also did these things:
Introduce a class change token

Fix map completion/exploration for alts to not be the broken, no logic situation it is now

Introduce a character progress journal which would support the map completion fixes and restore the ability for interested individuals to re-do challenges that were made account-wide achievements on new characters, and track that progress in-game.

These three items, together, would allow people who don't want to level something new to swap classes (and swap back) as they please, and allow people who like alts to have some functionality restored to make it more enjoyable, and ensure one of the reasons to make new characters (trying different classes) remained intact. It covers the "I-don't-want-to-re-do things" people and the "I-like-reasons-to-to-re-do-things" people. Removing classes altogether would make one side happy and further alienate others, which is not a good idea at all and the opposite of inclusion. Not to mention that it would be best for the longevity of the game if ZOS did something to attract the players that quit over AwA to come back, as opposed to doubling down on strategies that would further cement their decisions to leave ESO. It's also better because the people who like to make alts and start over are likely to stick with the game longer because it's a lot more never-ending for those folks than people who only want to do everything once.

Anyway, I'm excited we're getting a new class, but I would be even more excited if ZOS had the capacity and foresight and willingness to do the three things I mentioned at the same time. Or at least announce they are coming at some point, to encourage people to make characters and try the class and learn it when it comes out.

Grandsheba wrote: »

Play The Way You Want
We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.Wear any combination of light, medium, and heavy armorSlot abilities from any skill line you've discovered"Deck building" through a selection of abilities, items, Champion Points, etc.We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.

Have you ever played any of the elderscrolls games? You and the vast majority of the people choosing pre-made classes are talking about how you want others to play
Vs everyone else just wanting people to have the option to play how they want. We get it yoi want to make a *** tone of character, this change in no way impedes that at all. The devs stated their goal right above. Do what ever you want but dotn try to force others to play your way, make what ever class you want, make as many characters as they allow, spend as much money as you want to class changes and name tokens or alliances as you feel. That's your choice! But ours, fans of the series that look yo this talk of "play hoe you want" are looking to do just that with the addition of the Arcanist's 3 skill lines introduced as an inclusive guild class that ANYONE can have access to. Regardless if they choose to make a new character, make your own class, or whatever. Class identity it's not your choice. But the players, to self identify, if a player chooses a templar but doesn't choose any of the templar skills or passives and only chooses the werewolf and mages guild skills then what? Are they a templar, did they create an imbalance in the game, are they now some how stronger than everyone in the game? NO, they simply "played how they wanted" which means not how you perfer, which is fine! Hold your own controller not anyone else's. It's crazy how hard it is to get equality in anything.

We just want the game to be full of these equal, quality standards:

We strive to provide freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Yes, I have played other Elder Scrolls games. If I want a classless experience, that's where I'll go.

But this is an MMORPG. Not just an RPG. And in order to not have the exact same meta, in order to ensure there are a variety of abilities in use so PvP is more interesting, so that raid composition is a thing, etc., etc., you need classes. You need restrictions to drive that build creativity. You also kind of need those anchors and archetypes to encourage group play. If I say, "I'll bring my templar" to a raid as healer vs. my warden, that means something to everyone, and sets up an expectation for the special skills I can bring.

I guess it technically isn't written out, but I'm sure the whole "play how you want" manifesto is implied to be "as best as can be possibly done in the MMO genre." Read my history of posts. I am one of the biggest, strongest, most vocal people on the forums when it comes to advocating for all perspectives and suggesting that ESO be more inclusive. I am the absolute last person that would want to tell someone else how to play. But when considering suggested changes to ESO, one must consider ALL AREAS of gameplay to be inclusive. Does this make sense for PvP? For Cyro, Battlegrounds, and IC? Does this make sense for PvE? Will end game trials still be fun? Will dungeons still be fun? Will healers and tanks still be welcome in group play? Will gameplay be balanced as people play against and with each other? And all of those lenses are what makes ESO much much different from a solo RPG only game. And those lenses are why adding a new class is different than adding skill lines.

Some people wanted a new class. One of those people happens to be me. I'm not saying "let's never ever get new skill lines again, only new classes." I'm saying, we haven't had one in a while, it changes the game in a unique ways, it's time and I'm psyched. You seem to be saying that people who want a new class are being selfish and trying to control how others play. I'm saying... try to understand how a new class changes the game differently than new skill lines. If you can't, you might not be an MMO person (or at least, not an end game or competitive MMO person). And that's OK, but realize that ESO is both MMO and RPG and in order for it to be special it needs to keep the MMO elements too.

Let's look at this objectively, though. As far as fairness/inclusiveness.

ESO launched with four classes (12 skill lines) - Templar, NB, DK, Sorc. We will be up to three additional classes (Warden, Necro, Arcanist) added when the Arcanist arrives (9 skill lines). So there have been a total of three releases where new skills are locked behind a class. Total skill lines that are not accessible to all characters: 21 Also, three of these skill lines are always available to your character, so technically the number of skill lines inaccessible per character based on class choice is 18.

By comparison, ESO launched with six weapon skill lines, three armor skill lines, three world skill lines (Soul Magic, Werewolf, Vampire), three guild skill lines (Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Undaunted), and two alliance war skill lines. Since then, we've seen the addition of three more world skill lines (Excavation, Legerdemain, Scrying), three more guild skill lines (Dark Brotherhood, Psijic Order, Thieves Guild). Total skill lines accessible to all characters: 23 Now, you can't be a werewolf and a vampire at the same time, so to be fair you could say 22. On the flip side, if you count the six skill lines that were available at launch for crafting, and the seventh that became available with jewelcrafting, you could say 29. We could start quibbling about active skills vs passives, skills for combat vs. other activities in the game but... then we're going down a road of making assumptions of how people want to play, so in the spirit of "play the way you want" we'll say they all count equally towards character development and use.

Then we have racial skills, which are character specific but not by class, and cp slottables, which are available to all. There are more slottables and choices in the cp system than racials skills but to be generous we'll say they balance each other out.

Adding it up it's about as fair and equitable as you can get. 21 skill lines behind classes, 22 (or 29 if you count crafting) open to all -- assuming you buy all expansions, of course.

Then, we could talk about dev time. There have been three instances (including the arcanist) of the dev team working on content that is class specific. There have been ten instances of the dev team working on character building content that is "open to all." This includes the the six new skill lines added over the years, the new jewelcrafting line, the cp re-work, the highly requested vampire rework, and the smaller tweaks to Undaunted. You could probably count the outfit system as part of that, too. So overall, devs have spent more time/releases on things available to all characters, and that's only counting instances when we got a direct rework or new thing that we can actively use to build out our characters. In addition to all of that, we've seen all kinds of new features that everyone could enjoy that are more account-wide, like housing, stickerbook, transmutation system, Tales of Tribute, battlegrounds, etc.

If you ask me, ZOS is fairly and consistently building out class vs. skill lines, supporting both playstyles (at the broadest sense, MMO vs. RPG I guess you could say) and if you look over the years they have spent way more time working on functionality and features open to all as opposed to features that are tied to a specific class. Very inclusive, very fair, and systematically releasing functionality that covers different playstyles. Rotating between new skill lines and classes, because I'm sure they don't have the capacity to release a new skill line and a new class every year.

In some cases, ZOS truly can't win. They truly can't. Release a new class, which has been requested by many, and now they are under fire for not being fair/inclusive enough. If you look at the data above, I'd say they are pretty fair with their focus and, if anything, they spend too much time in the "for everyone" category and not enough time in the "character-specific" category. There's way more content available to all, and in addition to that AwA took away features that were character-specific. We need some love in that area, and a new class should only be the start! Character tracking should be fixed, enhancements that make characters special (more hair colors, more hair styles, a free barbershop, separating certain types of items into their own categories so we can wear both of them) should rise the to the top of the list, and so on. That would actually be the next "fair" area to tackle.

Yes, some people play only one character, one main, and want everything on that character... but some don't! There's room for BOTH styles in this game.

Anyway, I think I've taken this as far as it can go. We'll have to agree to disagree if the data above doesn't convince you, but hopefully we can at least do it in a civil and respectful way where you can acknowledge that it's nice for people who want to a new class to get it, even if you truly can't understand why it adds a different aspect to the game than new skill lines.

Also... I don't hold a controller. I'm a PC player.

heaven13 · February 2023

peacenote wrote: »

I truly believe that the most inclusive solution would be if, at the same time as the new class release, ZOS also did these things:
Introduce a class change token

Fix map completion/exploration for alts to not be the broken, no logic situation it is now

Introduce a character progress journal which would support the map completion fixes and restore the ability for interested individuals to re-do challenges that were made account-wide achievements on new characters, and track that progress in-game.

These three items, together, would allow people who don't want to level something new to swap classes (and swap back) as they please, and allow people who like alts to have some functionality restored to make it more enjoyable, and ensure one of the reasons to make new characters (trying different classes) remained intact. It covers the "I-don't-want-to-re-do things" people and the "I-like-reasons-to-to-re-do-things" people. Removing classes altogether would make one side happy and further alienate others, which is not a good idea at all and the opposite of inclusion. Not to mention that it would be best for the longevity of the game if ZOS did something to attract the players that quit over AwA to come back, as opposed to doubling down on strategies that would further cement their decisions to leave ESO. It's also better because the people who like to make alts and start over are likely to stick with the game longer because it's a lot more never-ending for those folks than people who only want to do everything once.

There's way more content available to all, and in addition to that AwA took away features that were character-specific. We need some love in that area, and a new class should only be the start! Character tracking should be fixed, enhancements that make characters special (more hair colors, more hair styles, a free barbershop, separating certain types of items into their own categories so we can wear both of them) should rise the to the top of the list, and so on. That would actually be the next "fair" area to tackle. Yes, some people play only one character, one main, and want everything on that character... but some don't! There's room for BOTH styles in this game.

If ZoS focused on these things and really embraced the idea that some players want to play multiple characters as separate entities and not just as tools of the account, I think I'd be way more hyped about a new class.

I can understand why some people want skill lines, and a Hermaeus Mora skill line seems a logical choice for that in the sense that anyone could seek out this dark knowledge and find black books, etc.

However, I do think classes are important for an MMORPG as you've discussed and a new class will, hopefully, breathe some new life into the game. While it sounds nice to consider making characters with access to all skill lines where you could pick and choose any three lines and which should, theoretically, open up build options, in reality, it wouldn't. Just like hybridization didn't. That diversity would be fine in a single-player experience, but in an MMORPG there's always an optimal set-up and raid composition would become even more limited.

Classes are too homogenous as is and we really need to go back to class identity with classes able to approach situations in different ways but still have the ability to be successful. Hopefully ZoS will correct course and bring back class distinction and embrace the multi-character approach to the game loved by many.

honeybun · February 2023

Yes, we would rather have a 3 new skill lines for arcanist

I think I misread this poll. I would prefer a new class, with the three skill lines a class usually comes with. I am excited about this chapter, and area. Hermaeus Mora especially is great, and I am hoping he has something to do with the new skill lines as well.

Muizer · February 2023

No, I would like a whole new class to start over with

Nothing against the idea of new skill lines, but we're talking about something that has evidently been designed and coded specifically as a new class. It's the conceptual glue without which the 3 skill lines would make little sense. At the very least an artistic overhaul would be required. Furthermore, the class is probably as good as ready which means answering 'yes' is asking ZoS to ditch months of work and going back to the drawing board. I.e. neither class nor skill lines any time soon. A loss/loss situation. Would I rather have had they had worked on 3 skill lines in the past year? Beside the point. That's not what this poll is asking and if it were, what would be the point of discussing that? Water under the bridge.

Grandsheba · February 2023

Yes, we would rather have a 3 new skill lines for arcanist

Muizer wrote: »

Nothing against the idea of new skill lines, but we're talking about something that has evidently been designed and coded specifically as a new class. It's the conceptual glue without which the 3 skill lines would make little sense. At the very least an artistic overhaul would be required. Furthermore, the class is probably as good as ready which means answering 'yes' is asking ZoS to ditch months of work and going back to the drawing board. I.e. neither class nor skill lines any time soon. A loss/loss situation. Would I rather have had they had worked on 3 skill lines in the past year? Beside the point. That's not what this poll is asking and if it were, what would be the point of discussing that? Water under the bridge.

So as a dev let me help you with your misconception on code. We rarely actually use code after a certain point. We have ti make the fundamental rules or laws of the world but after that we use segments, blueprints, or plug-ins. Like we aren't redoing a framework for the game itself just the character build which can be as simple as loading the ini.

This is why you're able to see a large recycling of animations throughout the game regardless of the characters being used. Same thing with skill lines, we can make pretty much anything happen in game as long as the animation, vfx and rules exist to be true. For example the changes made to the vampire already exist with the sorcerer, the aoe exist with the necromancers ulti and vampire ulti as well as the vault of madness monster helm and the venom pvp set for the aoe effect. Due to it already existing its very easy to change and mold it to whatever with no issue.

The arcanist can easily function as a new expansion on the skill lines for versatile gameplay with no issues except people's lack of understanding. This is still in very early development and not complete. It still has months of changes and formatting as well as the PTS testing before it's completion in June. Even after June it's subject to change just like everything else. So I hope to stop seeing comments like its too late or nothing we can do, because that’s exactly what the forums are for. To help craft the game in a way that's enjoyable for ALL players and to evolve the game forward with its current mechanics.

I hope this helps clarify your misunderstanding of game development and the misconception of the class based on your baseless assumptions. Because that's not how it works at all.

To the point of what yes means, no they wouldn't ditch anything at all...(really wish you read the OP). The class and all its abilities would still be there just like..(Jesus Christ ive already stated this)werewolf, vampire, fighters guild, psijic order and ect skill lines with all their passives. The ONLY change is exclusive to inclusive. This means moving the skill lines as they are into the guild skills tree under Arcanist and under the arcanist tab the 3 skill lines associated with that guild class for players to choose from. It's a very very simple concept.

Grandsheba · February 2023

Yes, we would rather have a 3 new skill lines for arcanist

@peacenote

[/quote]But this is an MMORPG. Not just an RPG. And in order to not have the exact same meta, in order to ensure there are a variety of abilities in use so PvP is more interesting, so that raid composition is a thing, etc., etc., you need classes. You need restrictions to drive that build creativity. You also kind of need those anchors and archetypes to encourage group play. If I say, "I'll bring my templar" to a raid as healer vs. my warden, that means something to everyone, and sets up an expectation for the special skills I can bring.[/quote]

This and basically the entire comment isn't contradiction. I give you a box of crayons and only give you black and white that's doesn't give variety. What you're saying doesn't even mean the words you're using, "inclusive, variety, creativity" there's nothing that fits that more than Inclusive skill line classes where you can craft your class built on by your orginal class or do what's already in game and not something so abstract as you're making it. Like I've said before anyone can pick any class and not choose any of the class skills or passives and make a completely different class with the skill lines. Many people mix their class skills with weapon skills, or any skill line already. Making the Arcanist a new more organized and fleshed out skill line of 3 as a guild class under herma mora would create inclusion, variety (just like weapo. Skill lines and all the ones that currently exist) like its just weird that I have to explain this lol.

Like this part here [/quote]And in order to not have the exact same meta, in order to ensure there are a variety of abilities in use so PvP is more interesting, so that raid composition is a thing, etc., etc., you need classes.[/quote]

How does this even make sense? It's one big contradictory statement. Your saying by NOT having the ARCANIST made to be inclusive to everyone in the same way that the 2h skill line or the vampire skill line is, makes it do there are NOT a variety of abilities in use so PVP will become less Ineresting....just say you don't have an argument to actually build to a point.

The case point of your long reply is that you just don't like the idea because you don't understand it. That's OK, but this bs your going on about makes absolutely no since and carries 0 logic. Meta is a choice for 1 and 2 the less choices you have and more restrictions the less "metas" you can create. I think you really mean builds but you don't know the difference between phrases "meta" and "builds". To me it sounds like you're judt scared of something you can't comprehend and that's fine too, just know this suggested change won't have the effect that you stated at all. It will actually make sure the game does not have the exact same meta, ensure there are a variety of abilities in use, make PvP is more interesting, etc., etc. We have classes, thats not going anywhere by expanding the classes with inclusive choice to allow your character in game to switch their classes by changing their skill slots and passives or mixing them like people already do as ive already explained.

I truly hope this helped you better understand the point being made by the majority of us that support inclusiveness and aspire for freedom and flexibility that allow you to transform your character fantasy into a gameplay reality. We value diversity of choice and playstyle with abilities, weapons, and armor. Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others, but every character should have the capacity to protect their group, mend allies, or devastate foes.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · February 2023

No, I would like a whole new class to start over with

Grandsheba wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Nothing against the idea of new skill lines, but we're talking about something that has evidently been designed and coded specifically as a new class. It's the conceptual glue without which the 3 skill lines would make little sense. At the very least an artistic overhaul would be required. Furthermore, the class is probably as good as ready which means answering 'yes' is asking ZoS to ditch months of work and going back to the drawing board. I.e. neither class nor skill lines any time soon. A loss/loss situation. Would I rather have had they had worked on 3 skill lines in the past year? Beside the point. That's not what this poll is asking and if it were, what would be the point of discussing that? Water under the bridge.

So as a dev let me help you with your misconception on code. We rarely actually use code after a certain point. We have ti make the fundamental rules or laws of the world but after that we use segments, blueprints, or plug-ins. Like we aren't redoing a framework for the game itself just the character build which can be as simple as loading the ini.

This is why you're able to see a large recycling of animations throughout the game regardless of the characters being used. Same thing with skill lines, we can make pretty much anything happen in game as long as the animation, vfx and rules exist to be true. For example the changes made to the vampire already exist with the sorcerer, the aoe exist with the necromancers ulti and vampire ulti as well as the vault of madness monster helm and the venom pvp set for the aoe effect. Due to it already existing its very easy to change and mold it to whatever with no issue.

The arcanist can easily function as a new expansion on the skill lines for versatile gameplay with no issues except people's lack of understanding. This is still in very early development and not complete. It still has months of changes and formatting as well as the PTS testing before it's completion in June. Even after June it's subject to change just like everything else. So I hope to stop seeing comments like its too late or nothing we can do, because that’s exactly what the forums are for. To help craft the game in a way that's enjoyable for ALL players and to evolve the game forward with its current mechanics.

I hope this helps clarify your misunderstanding of game development and the misconception of the class based on your baseless assumptions. Because that's not how it works at all.

To the point of what yes means, no they wouldn't ditch anything at all...(really wish you read the OP). The class and all its abilities would still be there just like..(Jesus Christ ive already stated this)werewolf, vampire, fighters guild, psijic order and ect skill lines with all their passives. The ONLY change is exclusive to inclusive. This means moving the skill lines as they are into the guild skills tree under Arcanist and under the arcanist tab the 3 skill lines associated with that guild class for players to choose from. It's a very very simple concept.

You forget the part that if they listen and go the skill line route, every one that play it as a class by ignoring class skill line will only be weaker it will be so less fun to play. So no i wont be the only change.

I agree that we should get skill line sooner than later but it should under no circomptance come as a cost of a massively asked feature that the dev aknoleged and even advertise, that people already preordered a chapter for that reason. It would be a massive middle finger to all those people and a massive pr mess after it. Not worth it.

Muizer · February 2023

No, I would like a whole new class to start over with

Grandsheba wrote: »

So as a dev let me help you with your misconception on code.

Code wise it may not be hard to create some mongrel solution of 3 technically separate skill lines that just happen to look suspiciously like they belong together. To present that as the bottleneck is indeed nonsense. It's that that would not be fit for release.

In addition to the technical split, skill lines would have to be made more thematically distinct. More so than is typical for classes. More importantly though, in ESO, all skill lines other than class skill lines are unlocked by something. Armour, a weapon, a guild storyline, the alliance war. Releasing skill lines without that would look like an obvious hack. There's no point in even contemplating this as a possibility.

Grandsheba wrote: »

This is still in very early development and not complete. It still has months of changes and formatting as well as the PTS testing before it's completion in June. Even after June it's subject to change just like everything else.

From what we have been shown in gameplay footage and trailer that the class concept is settled on and much of the artwork done.

The reveal itself arguably demonstrate the 'feature of the year' is in the home straight. If there were room to change course the reveal surely has constrained it mightily.

As for how much is left of the budgeted development time? The release is June 5th, PTS probably starts a month earlier. No self respecting developer would plan to use the testing phase for anything but tweaks and bug fixes. That leaves 3 months minus the time allotted to internal testing.

Less than 3 months to redesign a major feature that has already been announced to the public, even if you can reuse assets, sounds like a bad idea to me. But it's true. I'm not a game developer. I suppose I should be glad.