Ranged damage play patterns: Sorc buffs and nuking PvP opponents from complete safety

Sergykid

buff sorc defense and offense but nerf mobility.

absorb shields could have their cap increased (or decreased correct word?) from 60 to 70 or whatever those values were.
and streak could get stun just from flank.

no need breach on sorc, would be too much. And anyway if u r mag range u use destro so slot the better Ele Sus

Bergzorn

Sergykid wrote: »

and streak could get stun just from flank.

How does that make any sense on the class or the skill. It makes Streak stun totally useless in 1v1 and totally weird in any other encounter. IMO, it's generally a bad idea to have flanking mechanics with the positional desyncs we have.

The last "buff Sorc" threads all quickly went to "ok, let's buff Sorc but let's also nerf Streak". I would be up for an experiment. Let's disable Streak for a month and see how many players continue to play Sorc and what fraction of them is exclusively running in a zerg.

xylena_lazarow

Sergykid wrote: »

nerf mobility... streak could get stun just from flank

No. Dear god no. Sorc barely has any mobility advantage anymore in this ridiculous speed creeped meta where 38k hp Templar tankhealbots run around speed capped. Any "flank" mechanic works like garbage due to this game's inherently poor position tracking. Streak already misfires too often. If anything, nerf generic speed creep like Celerity CP.

Bergzorn wrote: »

The last "buff Sorc" threads all quickly went to "ok, let's buff Sorc but let's also nerf Streak"... Let's disable Streak for a month and see how many players continue to play Sorc

It's insane, right? Like they really do just want to sit behind a zerg nuking hapless outnumbered randoms from 41m away, but then they cry and whine like crazy when the enemy Sorc they're trying to zerg down 10v1 manages to Streak away. And then they cry and whine for yet more damage nerfs and yet more defensive buffs when the solo Sorc they were chasing across the map turns and burns them.

Sergykid

oh u were talking about cp pvp, that place is broken mess has no arguments especially Cyrodiil

xylena_lazarow

Sergykid wrote: »

oh u were talking about cp pvp, that place is broken mess has no arguments especially Cyrodiil

Same concepts apply to BGs and the dead horse Ravenwatch. Swift trait, Medium Armor passive, easy sources of Major Expedition like Race Against Time or Elude, there's so much generic speed. Nerf all that stuff, not Streak.

TechMaybeHic

I do think speed has gotten out of control and contribute to desync but to nerf that and leave streak would be asinine

Chilly-McFreeze

And I always thought mobility via streak was a core concept of the sorc class in pvp since release, just like NB evasiveness through cloak and shade.
How comes that some of you want to turn that around for sorcs now? Do you want another tanky "stand your ground" class?
DK/ Temp were designed to be that but somehow, with all the buffs to general mobility (as mentioned above), end up just a tad below sorcs while still being able to eat up a lot more dmg than them?

Or are it more general problems that the sorc issues highlight on both ends? Far too easy you can become far too mobile + regen is out of control. Maybe solve those issues first before we tamper with core class mechanics?

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I do think speed has gotten out of control and contribute to desync but to nerf that and leave streak would be asinine

Buffing generic nonsense and nerfing class identity is a big part of this PvP's downfall. What you see today is the result of doing this for the past 8 years. I think it was actually you that said to me in another thread, when I asked what DKs do these days other than Corrosive Whip spam, you told me "block and heal" lol. That's a good summary of what's wrong.

When I think of what's strong in this game's meta, it's not classes. Healing, blocking, sustain, Resolving Vigor, Rallying Cry, Resto, Frost, SnB, defensive ults, Major Evasion, ball grouping, faction stacking, LoS abuse... meanwhile the few strong class things remaining like Corrosive, Streak, and Invis Cloak draw constant complaints. So dysfunctional.

xylena_lazarow

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

regen is out of control

Yes. Massive tank meta problem. Infinite sustain to support infinite stalling.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I do think speed has gotten out of control and contribute to desync but to nerf that and leave streak would be asinine

Buffing generic nonsense and nerfing class identity is a big part of this PvP's downfall. What you see today is the result of doing this for the past 8 years. I think it was actually you that said to me in another thread, when I asked what DKs do these days other than Corrosive Whip spam, you told me "block and heal" lol. That's a good summary of what's wrong.

When I think of what's strong in this game's meta, it's not classes. Healing, blocking, sustain, Resolving Vigor, Rallying Cry, Resto, Frost, SnB, defensive ults, Major Evasion, ball grouping, faction stacking, LoS abuse... meanwhile the few strong class things remaining like Corrosive, Streak, and Invis Cloak draw constant complaints. So dysfunctional.

Fair enough, but back when there was no mobility options for the so called stand your ground classes, you were basically left standing there on a templar DK just to get attacked by a NB or Sorc and if you fought them off, you would be told "consider that a win because they had to run away" but really all it was is they'd just keep resetting the fight to come back and try again and again until they did get you, or Lord forbid you are running with friends that are not as good and seen as easy picking before they jet away

In before being told to use a gap closer, which runs into an engine guardian, matriarch, whatever pet that teleports away to the sorc thats now out of reach anyway, or desync you when the game is at it's worse. Or ball of lightning blocks along with range CC it blocks

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

In before being told to use a gap closer, which runs into an engine guardian, matriarch, whatever pet that teleports away to the sorc thats now out of reach anyway, or desync you when the game is at it's worse. Or ball of lightning blocks along with range CC it blocks

My DK could just spam Race and run Sorcs down on foot. Unless the Sorc is particularly skilled, they would either run out of resources and die, or get bashed when they try to cast Dark Exchange to refill on Streak fuel and then die.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

In before being told to use a gap closer, which runs into an engine guardian, matriarch, whatever pet that teleports away to the sorc thats now out of reach anyway, or desync you when the game is at it's worse. Or ball of lightning blocks along with range CC it blocks

My DK could just spam Race and run Sorcs down on foot. Unless the Sorc is particularly skilled, they would either run out of resources and die, or get bashed when they try to cast Dark Exchange to refill on Streak fuel and then die.

With or without swift/wild hunt/whatever speed modifiers that would get adjusted? As is; good sorcs are not getting caught as they have just as much speed

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

With or without swift/wild hunt/whatever speed modifiers that would get adjusted? As is; good sorcs are not getting caught as they have just as much speed

Not sure exactly what you mean, but I'd be fine with gap closers being the only way to reliably catch a Streaking Sorc. At least gap closers are generally useful, and are much cheaper than Streak. Against NBs you've got: Detect Pots, which are strictly worse against anything else. Camo Hunter or Magelight casts, useless against anything else, and they're way more expensive than Cloak on top of that. Many NBs will have their Cloak spam built cheaper than enemy's direct AoE spam too.

Engine Guardian is part of the generic tank meta problem. Targetable pets like that and Matriarch are their own horrible mess in PvP, terribly uneven both to use and fight against. The flip side of the pet teleporting with the Sorc is, if it drags behind the Sorc, the enemy can gap close in the moment the Sorc should've been able to get away for good. For every time the pet randomly eats someone's 1v1 ult, there's a fight you can't even engage in because the pet keeps getting zerged down.

Chilly-McFreeze

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Engine Guardian is part of the generic tank meta problem. Targetable pets like that and Matriarch are their own horrible mess in PvP, terribly uneven both to use and fight against. The flip side of the pet teleporting with the Sorc is, if it drags behind the Sorc, the enemy can gap close in the moment the Sorc should've been able to get away for good.

Just what I wanted to say. They function as an anchor point on a tail tucking sorc.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Or ball of lightning blocks along with range CC it blocks

Without thinking it through to the end, what's your take on letting BoL's orb being able to be gap closed? Could make Ball of Lightning be superior as defense against ranged but leaving you open to gap closers due to no CC + anchor point, while Streak working vice versa.

So the whole meat shield thing is a double edged sword. If they make pets untargetable you couldn't deny pet builds their advantages (resources via EG, heal form matriach, etc.).

PhoenixGrey

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

What are you talking about? Streak has only 15m range and frag has such abysmal travel speed your better on top of the target anyways.

I'm gonna sit behind a zerg on a keep roof and parse you from 41m away while you fight outnumbered. I bet this will be very fun for you, the target, who can do absolutely nothing to stop me, the ranged Sorc, regardless of either of our skill levels. If that's cool with you, than yea I accept your argument, and look forward to zerging you down from safety.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

What are you talking about? Streak has only 15m range and frag has such abysmal travel speed your better on top of the target anyways.

I'm gonna sit behind a zerg on a keep roof and parse you from 41m away while you fight outnumbered. I bet this will be very fun for you, the target, who can do absolutely nothing to stop me, the ranged Sorc, regardless of either of our skill levels. If that's cool with you, than yea I accept your argument, and look forward to zerging you down from safety.

Pure ranged Bow blade hits infinitesimally harder than mag sorc right now.

Mag Sorc is not the only ranged spec in the game.

xylena_lazarow

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

So the whole meat shield thing is a double edged sword. If they make pets untargetable you couldn't deny pet builds their advantages (resources via EG, heal form matriarch, etc.).

I have run builds that specifically abuse pet LoS, players just ignore you 1v1, but you still get zerged down, especially if the bird dies and you can't burst heal against their zerg spam. Sometimes I'd space out and rush into combat without the bird up. I've also had my crosshairs on an enemy Sorc directly in front of me, only for my DK to Leap sideways across the screen at a pet. It's really horrible gameplay on both sides, and the double bar thing is just insult to injury for Sorc players.

Turtle_Bot

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

What are you talking about? Streak has only 15m range and frag has such abysmal travel speed your better on top of the target anyways.

I'm gonna sit behind a zerg on a keep roof and parse you from 41m away while you fight outnumbered. I bet this will be very fun for you, the target, who can do absolutely nothing to stop me, the ranged Sorc, regardless of either of our skill levels. If that's cool with you, than yea I accept your argument, and look forward to zerging you down from safety.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

What are you talking about? Streak has only 15m range and frag has such abysmal travel speed your better on top of the target anyways.

I'm gonna sit behind a zerg on a keep roof and parse you from 41m away while you fight outnumbered. I bet this will be very fun for you, the target, who can do absolutely nothing to stop me, the ranged Sorc, regardless of either of our skill levels. If that's cool with you, than yea I accept your argument, and look forward to zerging you down from safety.

Pure ranged Bow blade hits infinitesimally harder than mag sorc right now.

Mag Sorc is not the only ranged spec in the game.

Don't forget rangeplar with beam spamming on a 500% scaling execute with decent base damage, that stacks all of its damage up front during poor performance allowing users to cast, block and recast for a double execute that guaranteed kills anyone below 50% health, even through stuff like undead passive.
Or their unblockable targeted stun that has a faster travel time than everything sorc has and also comes with a knock back which causes far too many positional desyncs and other issues, oh and just for fun, it completely ignores mitigation and has decent damage.
Not to mention that the classes healing is still just as strong as ever so if it does ever get pressured, it can easily hold its ground if needed and thanks to the free speed from celerity, swift, RaT/elude and many other sources, the class is almost as mobile as sorc.

Not saying plar is in the best state ever either, but considering I usually see about 30 plars spamming beam/javelin for every 1 sorc I see doing anything, even hiding in zergs, just goes to show what state sorcs are really in, even for zerglings.

StaticWave

I think 2 simple defensive buffs that would make sorc good again are:

1) A true burst heal like other classes
2) Better ways to stack spell crit to make use of Crit Surge

Seriously, a build with decent crit chance and Crit Surge will make a sorc really hard to kill, and that's without a true burst heal. Constant layers of HoTs critting left and right will keep you topped up most of the time. Add in a burst heal, and it's really easy to survive on a Sorc with Streak for the oh crap moment.

LittlePinkDot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

oh u were talking about cp pvp, that place is broken mess has no arguments especially Cyrodiil

Same concepts apply to BGs and the dead horse Ravenwatch. Swift trait, Medium Armor passive, easy sources of Major Expedition like Race Against Time or Elude, there's so much generic speed. Nerf all that stuff, not Streak.

Leave my quick cloak alone.

LittlePinkDot

StaticWave wrote: »

I think 2 simple defensive buffs that would make sorc good again are:

1) A true burst heal like other classes
2) Better ways to stack spell crit to make use of Crit Surge

Seriously, a build with decent crit chance and Crit Surge will make a sorc really hard to kill, and that's without a true burst heal. Constant layers of HoTs critting left and right will keep you topped up most of the time. Add in a burst heal, and it's really easy to survive on a Sorc with Streak for the oh crap moment.

Because of hybridization all skills scale with whichever is higher, weapon damage or spell damage. Same with cit.
Just go stam hybrid. Medium armour. And you can still use haunting curse and endless fury. Frags is slow. You could use weapon skill for a better spammable.

Pelanora

I just want sorc not to be boring.

Burst heal and better crit isn't enough for that.

Old skills, old passives, old animations. Time for a make over.

Pelanora

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/139782/sorcs-are-not-so-good

Ahhh this is almost funny

RemoryAzure

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Better ways to stack spell crit to make use of Crit Surge

i feel like there is a flaw in a whole sorc kit, which is lack of scaling

not only shields that scale with mana only, but there are things that just dont scale at all: dark deal/conversion, crit surge, and in some way even the blood magic passive, which has very limited (rare) usage unless u run cfrag caster build (which i love in some way, but LoS doesnt allow to play it in any serious environment vs good players), and heals for a small portion of 4.5% hp (with battle spirit), and even increasing health to the sky has a very little impact on how effective this heal is (1350 with 30k and 2250 with 50k is still nothing considering how rare it is and how big damage numbers are)

so, the only option to make most of these skills more effective is crit healing stat, which locks u to play khajit with a shadow mundus, and this is also what makes the whole thing not that much effective, coz damage wise sorc doesnt have crit damage passive and everyone out there is running rallying cry

and another problem is that crits in pvp are quite niche, if u compare any build as its crit and non-crit versions vs a player with rallying cry and a couple if impens for a total of 50% critdmg reduction, then non-crit build is gonna always do slightly (or even much) more dps in a long perspective, making crit only viable for builds with either hard hitting skills (hi nightblade) relying on a oneshot, either for builds with guaranteed crit (hi nb x2), or some other pros that sorcs doesnt have. and this is mostly because crit chance in items is losing in effectiveness compared to any other stat (should be atlease 4-5% per line, not 3), even crit builds dont focus on building it much, rather relying to hit hard but rarely, which is also not the case of a sorc with its spammable (crushing shock), which corresponds to a "long statistical perspective" after 2-3 casts already due to big amount of small damage instances

OBJnoob

Give sorc breach and make pets untargetable/unkillable. Done.

LittlePinkDot

RemoryAzure wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Better ways to stack spell crit to make use of Crit Surge

i feel like there is a flaw in a whole sorc kit, which is lack of scaling

not only shields that scale with mana only, but there are things that just dont scale at all: dark deal/conversion, crit surge, and in some way even the blood magic passive, which has very limited (rare) usage unless u run cfrag caster build (which i love in some way, but LoS doesnt allow to play it in any serious environment vs good players), and heals for a small portion of 4.5% hp (with battle spirit), and even increasing health to the sky has a very little impact on how effective this heal is (1350 with 30k and 2250 with 50k is still nothing considering how rare it is and how big damage numbers are)

so, the only option to make most of these skills more effective is crit healing stat, which locks u to play khajit with a shadow mundus, and this is also what makes the whole thing not that much effective, coz damage wise sorc doesnt have crit damage passive and everyone out there is running rallying cry

and another problem is that crits in pvp are quite niche, if u compare any build as its crit and non-crit versions vs a player with rallying cry and a couple if impens for a total of 50% critdmg reduction, then non-crit build is gonna always do slightly (or even much) more dps in a long perspective, making crit only viable for builds with either hard hitting skills (hi nightblade) relying on a oneshot, either for builds with guaranteed crit (hi nb x2), or some other pros that sorcs doesnt have. and this is mostly because crit chance in items is losing in effectiveness compared to any other stat (should be atlease 4-5% per line, not 3), even crit builds dont focus on building it much, rather relying to hit hard but rarely, which is also not the case of a sorc with its spammable (crushing shock), which corresponds to a "long statistical perspective" after 2-3 casts already due to big amount of small damage instances

You can get a crit damage passive with dual wield can't you? Just ditch the stupid staves.
Use vigor.

gariondavey

Kind of funny seeing someone tell @StaticWave how to play sorc
I agree that sorc needs a burst heal that isn't interrupted.
This can be done by changing dark deal.
Or making pets 1 bar only.
Double barring pets is so outdated.

Sergykid

all these suggestions here forget sorc can be out of danger in two seconds without being countered, just like nb shade.

Pelanora

Sergykid wrote: »

all these suggestions here forget sorc can be out of danger in two seconds without being countered, just like nb shade.

Unless it hits a small stone.

RemoryAzure

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

You can get a crit damage passive with dual wield can't you? Just ditch the stupid staves.

no, by all the logic, obviously i cant get a dual wield crit damage passive on a ranged build, which is this topic about

Turtle_Bot

Pelanora wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/139782/sorcs-are-not-so-good

Ahhh this is almost funny

The game has come full circle, nb, dk are op (plar used to be before U36), sorc (mag especially) is severely underpowered, very old and clunky. Finally time for a proper rework to the class, fix its inherent issues once and for all.

Also the point made in that thread about people not wanting their cookies running away from them is so spot on and completely relevant even today