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Ranged damage play patterns: Sorc buffs and nuking PvP opponents from complete safety

  • KilianDermoth
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    Sergykid wrote: »
    all these suggestions here forget sorc can be out of danger in two seconds without being countered, just like nb shade.
    Easy Counter: Gap Closer and as you said you even have 2 sec to do it. Because the Sorc usually needs to streak twice (because of the range) and streak is delayed also if the chaser has faster movement he just has to keep chasing and wait until the Sorc is out of Resources to get a free kill.

    While NB Shade: is instant without literally any counter if placed well. Provides a debuff. Has no ramping costs.

    Further they have invisibility, again instant, again no ramping costs, gives 100% damage mitigation against most skills and even provides an offensive buff. Plus the counters to it are all lackluster, the only reliable counter are detect potions which have plenty downtime.

    Streak is an absolute joke to the escape tools the nightblade has...

    The buffs / debuffs the Sorc has access to are a complete joke to the buffs / debuffs the Nightblade has (twice as many and some of the best ones, too).

    The offensive Toolkit is a complete joke compared to the offensive toolkit the nightblade has. If you are really lucky and can land some of the easiest to avoid combos in the game then it might barely do more than what spectral bow can do by itself.

    The defensive Toolkit is a complete joke compared to literally any other class.

    Yeah...

    So you literally hove no idea what you are talking about or are just trolling. Because Sorc is not remotely in a good spot even not unique stuff like streak.

    And if anyone is dieing to (Mag) Sorcs right now he is by a big margin less skilled than the Sorc and the Sorc well earned his win.
    Edited by KilianDermoth on January 1, 2023 11:42AM
  • AdamLAD
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    "Mag Sorc well earned his win." Totally agree. All these players still complaining about them go ahead and fight some good players on one and you will sharp find out its sub par to other classes. Let me just tell everyone a little fact about mag sorc. The last buff we had was when runecage was a thing. 2018. Yup 5 years ago. And all we have received is nerfs since then. 5 YEARS. So all these years you have been fighting a class that's not had anything AT ALL and people are still complaining about it. Imagine if any other class didn't receive anything in 5 years and actually got nerfed pretty hard.
  • gariondavey
    gariondavey
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    AdamLAD wrote: »
    "Mag Sorc well earned his win." Totally agree. All these players still complaining about them go ahead and fight some good players on one and you will sharp find out its sub par to other classes. Let me just tell everyone a little fact about mag sorc. The last buff we had was when runecage was a thing. 2018. Yup 5 years ago. And all we have received is nerfs since then. 5 YEARS. So all these years you have been fighting a class that's not had anything AT ALL and people are still complaining about it. Imagine if any other class didn't receive anything in 5 years and actually got nerfed pretty hard.

    Well we got vigor like everyone else, which can be really nice on mag sorc, but yeah I feel you
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    The tank meta has been around for ages now, and its been going up and down in efficiency ,but ~always been part of the meta. It creates boring and unhealthy pvp in cyrodiil imo. As long as selfheals are as good as they are and the fact that you can stack such high damage reduction and resists while still having nuking potential through sets and ultimates...thats not gonna change anytime soon. Sadly.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • StaticWave
    StaticWave
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    Kind of funny seeing someone tell @StaticWave how to play sorc
    I agree that sorc needs a burst heal that isn't interrupted.
    This can be done by changing dark deal.
    Or making pets 1 bar only.
    Double barring pets is so outdated.

    Lol i guess it's bound to happen since I don't play as much anymore.

    Anyways, I've made plenty of threads asking for REASONABLE sorc buffs in the past. All these buffs I'm seeing from people will make the class too strong and ZOS will nerf it the following patch. I'm willing to bet on it.
    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • StaticWave
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    StaticWave wrote: »
    I think 2 simple defensive buffs that would make sorc good again are:

    1) A true burst heal like other classes
    2) Better ways to stack spell crit to make use of Crit Surge

    Seriously, a build with decent crit chance and Crit Surge will make a sorc really hard to kill, and that's without a true burst heal. Constant layers of HoTs critting left and right will keep you topped up most of the time. Add in a burst heal, and it's really easy to survive on a Sorc with Streak for the oh crap moment.

    Because of hybridization all skills scale with whichever is higher, weapon damage or spell damage. Same with cit.
    Just go stam hybrid. Medium armour. And you can still use haunting curse and endless fury. Frags is slow. You could use weapon skill for a better spammable.

    I know, that's why I went hybrid 1st day of PTS when hybridization was introduced. Anyways, that doesn't change the fact that the class lacks extra crit passives to synchronize with Crit Surge. NB has Minor Savagery AND another passive giving extra crit for each Assassination skill slotted. Sorc doesn't have that. While a NB can sit at 40% crit rate without investing into any crit set, I have to actually invest to reach that amount on my sorc. Both classes are very similar in terms of abilities, but one is vastly superior than another. Why?
    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • Pelanora
    Pelanora
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    Do you think it's cheaper to make whole new skill lines that sorc can use to remediate its lacks and flaws, like vigor, than to radically recode how sorc works. Or something.
  • StaticWave
    StaticWave
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    StaticWave wrote: »
    2) Better ways to stack spell crit to make use of Crit Surge

    i feel like there is a flaw in a whole sorc kit, which is lack of scaling

    not only shields that scale with mana only, but there are things that just dont scale at all: dark deal/conversion, crit surge, and in some way even the blood magic passive, which has very limited (rare) usage unless u run cfrag caster build (which i love in some way, but LoS doesnt allow to play it in any serious environment vs good players), and heals for a small portion of 4.5% hp (with battle spirit), and even increasing health to the sky has a very little impact on how effective this heal is (1350 with 30k and 2250 with 50k is still nothing considering how rare it is and how big damage numbers are)

    so, the only option to make most of these skills more effective is crit healing stat, which locks u to play khajit with a shadow mundus, and this is also what makes the whole thing not that much effective, coz damage wise sorc doesnt have crit damage passive and everyone out there is running rallying cry

    and another problem is that crits in pvp are quite niche, if u compare any build as its crit and non-crit versions vs a player with rallying cry and a couple if impens for a total of 50% critdmg reduction, then non-crit build is gonna always do slightly (or even much) more dps in a long perspective, making crit only viable for builds with either hard hitting skills (hi nightblade) relying on a oneshot, either for builds with guaranteed crit (hi nb x2), or some other pros that sorcs doesnt have. and this is mostly because crit chance in items is losing in effectiveness compared to any other stat (should be atlease 4-5% per line, not 3), even crit builds dont focus on building it much, rather relying to hit hard but rarely, which is also not the case of a sorc with its spammable (crushing shock), which corresponds to a "long statistical perspective" after 2-3 casts already due to big amount of small damage instances

    Yes, I've brought forth that issue in the past.

    Both versions of Sorc legit do not have any decent and usable heals that can scale with offensive stats. Every other class has that. I said "decent and usable" because they must be together. A decent class heal on Sorc is usually not usuable (Clan Fear/Matriarch heal), whereas a usable heal is usually not decent (Crit Surge/Dark Deal/Blood Magic). Other classes have decent and usable class heals (Honor of the Dead, Resistant Flesh, etc.)

    I've tried just about every single build to buff sorc healing. I went the full crit chance/crit healing route, but then I'd be giving up too much of other stats. I also went the full % healing modifier, but I'd also lose damage because they don't buff my offensiveness. I've also gone full damage, but my usable class heals don't benefit because they only scale off % modifiers like crit heal and healing done.

    It's like trying to make a Honda Odyssey be as good as a stock Ferrari. You can mod the crap out of it, but you will have issues somewhere, while the stock Ferrari is just chilling. That's what I feel when trying to make my Sorc be as strong as my NB. I can make it extremely tanky, but I won't have the same damage output or recovery as a NB. In fact, I could slot my current stamsorc build on NB and perform better solely from the class being superior. I've done that many times when switching between stamSorc and stamNB because I'm too lazy to theorycraft a NB build. Imagine slapping a brawler build designed specifically for stamSorc on a stamNB with missing passives and be twice as tanky and deal twice as much burst. I'd give up my Sorc if I wasn't so attached to the class. Matter of fact, my youtube channel has 2 videos of me playing stamSorc and stamNB 3 months ago using the same Trickery/Essence Thief/Engine Guardian build. Watch how much I had to kite to survive on my Sorc whereas on my NB I was literally chilling with no Shadow Image and random abilities put together. The build was designed for stamSorc, btw.

    NB:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZCuRe6oLHU&t=47s

    Sorc:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLTP4a1r1z4&t=134s

    Right now, I'm using Daedric Trickery back bar to buff Dark Deal/Crit Surge/Blood Magic and just generally be tanky to suit my brawler playstyle, and then pump everything into damage. Yes, that includes giving up recovery. That's what I had to sacrifice to make these non-scaling heals be at least decent. I could also go the full crit damage/crit healing route, but I don't really think it's worth it considering you have to give up a bunch of other stats just to be average lol. NB, Templar, and Warden literally get extra crit damage just from their passives. It's insane how bad sorc passives are compared to other classes.
    Edited by StaticWave on January 2, 2023 10:35AM
    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • Sergykid
    Sergykid
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    Pelanora wrote: »
    Sergykid wrote: »
    all these suggestions here forget sorc can be out of danger in two seconds without being countered, just like nb shade.

    Unless it hits a small stone.

    skill issue, knowing the terrain is part of experience

    Sergykid wrote: »
    all these suggestions here forget sorc can be out of danger in two seconds without being countered, just like nb shade.
    Easy Counter: Gap Closer and as you said you even have 2 sec to do it. Because the Sorc usually needs to streak twice (because of the range) and streak is delayed also if the chaser has faster movement he just has to keep chasing and wait until the Sorc is out of Resources to get a free kill.

    skill issue on the sorc part.
    u can 1x streak behind pillar and thus untargetable by gap closer.
    streak has unavoidable stun so after u break free in these two seconds i did 2x streak and be out of ur gap closer range.
    -PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube
  • Pelanora
    Pelanora
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    Sergykid wrote: »
    Pelanora wrote: »
    Sergykid wrote: »
    all these suggestions here forget sorc can be out of danger in two seconds without being countered, just like nb shade.

    Unless it hits a small stone.

    skill issue, knowing the terrain is part of experience

    Sergykid wrote: »
    all these suggestions here forget sorc can be out of danger in two seconds without being countered, just like nb shade.
    Easy Counter: Gap Closer and as you said you even have 2 sec to do it. Because the Sorc usually needs to streak twice (because of the range) and streak is delayed also if the chaser has faster movement he just has to keep chasing and wait until the Sorc is out of Resources to get a free kill.

    skill issue on the sorc part.
    u can 1x streak behind pillar and thus untargetable by gap closer.
    streak has unavoidable stun so after u break free in these two seconds i did 2x streak and be out of ur gap closer range.

    Design issue. Getting stopped by a small stone is just stupid coding.
    Edited by Pelanora on January 2, 2023 5:31AM
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