Honest question: Why is gatekeeping class builds a thing in the PvP community?

Fabi95

Hi everyone, I'm genuinely curious and like to hear some point of views from you. In this case, I'm speaking particularly of PvP ingame (not content on Youtube as that is already public). Also because for PvE, players mostly run the same setups.

I had interesting encounters where I got genuinely curious about the build somebody used. At times, people asked me after a Battlegrounds game and I happily answered. Including links to the UESP build editor and videos (e.g. great guides from DeltiasGaming). But whenever I ask, in 98% of the cases I don't get a response. The juicy detail: It's often players who chased me across the entire map, just to get a single kill on me. It leaves a sour impression to say the least, considering it's intentional targeting (but that's another story).

Mind you, I'm not even asking often. There is much I can still recognize myself, such as proc sets. Yet the intransparency and gatekeeping of builds isn't fun(ny) though. It's like as if real competition isn't encouraged by some. And that it kind of comes down to perceived unfair advantages - including to hide what exactly is being used.

Personally I feel it would be helpful if an inspect feature was a thing in ESO. Even if it was just part of the death recap. But since it's not, oftentimes the experiences remain completely mysterious. And in the worst case, downright frustrating. Because this is especially discouraging for PvP newcomers. You probably know situations when you had a player in a group who had 20.000 health or less. When they end up getting one-shot, you probably think "it's no surprise" - but to them it is a surprise. For example: Imagine when you were a new player, and then discovered that the Balorghs set exists.

Where I wonder:
Why is it seemingly frowned upon to educate players more, and that players end up forced to "figure it out themselves"?
Is there still actual fun involved when build gatekeeping is deemed necessary? What could be the reasons? And where is the community spirit in that?
Do you think there is a mindset disparity between ESO PvP players ingame, compared to players you see on Youtube? (inside comments or popular content creators)
And: What could be done to make the experience more fun, welcoming and fair for everyone? Could an inspect feature be the solution?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts, I appreciate your insight!

DrNukenstein

I'll tell anyone who asks about my gank builds, and if you're unlucky you don't even have to ask.

But, it's a lot of typing. Asking someone to do that much typing out of nowhere might not go over great with everyone.

My advice is to join an established PVP guild and join their discord. In the one I'm in, there's a lot of high end shop talk that has made my builds better than they were.

SkaraMinoc

It's a competitive game. Some players spend 20-30+ hours optimizing a single build. Why give out all that hard work? It's like creating a startup and then giving out your trade secrets to your competitors. It makes no sense.

Explaining a build to someone takes a lot of time. It's not just "here use these 2 or 3 sets" and magically become strong. Sets, traits, enchants, backbar/frontbar weapons, poisons, potions, food, mundus, skills, how to block weave, how to bash weave, how to bash + light attack weave, etc. I'm not explaining all of that. I don't use UESP because 1) some of the math is wrong, and 2) theorycrafting builds often doesn't translate to in-game results. You need to make small changes to your build and go validate those changes. See what works by testing it in PvP, not in a build editor.

morrowjen

Solution is to run encounterlogs whenever they fix the crash bug (or use the workaround) and you can see what everyone runs in things like trials and dungeons. I would assume that it shows up in BGs but IDK for certain.

Lumenn

As has been said here there is a lot of theory involved in a good build. Some will share, some won't type all that out(especially brutal on Xbox if you don't have a keyboard). A good pvp guild can help. A second point is things have a tendency to be...adjusted, should it get too popular. Some builds work because not everyone is using them and they're not posted on social media.....

fred4

This used to annoy me, but on the other hand you very pointedly refer to "perceived unfair advantages". I think you are very much correct there. While there are, or have been, exceptions, I think players tend to overrate builds. Just because a player keeps stumm, doesn't mean they are withholding buildcrafting knowledge. They may not have any. Skill matters. They could be experienced duellers for example. Some people will kill you with decent, but very standard builds.

Builds also need to fit with your playstyle, muscle memory and objectives. For example, as a usually fast and sustainy player, I know I would not be happy playing the less sustainy, slower, but harder bursting builds that sometimes kill me. It's generally hard to adopt someone else's build and be equally successful, at least not immediately.

Would I like to know what other people are running? Yeah. Not that you necessarily understand why their build works from that, what their exact playstyle is, and what borderline exploits they're knowingly or unknowingly using. You're right, some people - maybe some adolescents - are only too happy if they can get under your skin. It probably doesn't matter whether they do so by killing you or by denying you the information you seek. PvP has always reminded me of schoolyard bullying from time to time. You don't engage in conversation with bullies. It's usually not productive.

EDIT: Aside from that, the other answers people have given while I was writing are perfectly reasonable too. The bandwidth of that little chat box is limited and frustrating at times, nor might they be ready to talk at all, especially if in a group and others are depending on them.

The way the game is balanced, I believe, is that something gets nerfed when it becomes popular. It doesn't necessarily mean that thing is broken OP, only that it became meta and is widely used. Perception is everything. This is a valid, if perhaps cynical, reason why some people may not talk about a playstyle they love, e.g. for fear it will get justly or unjustly nerfed.

Then again, I also came across a YouTuber who talked about a set and playstyle interaction that he had previously only made available to Patreon subscribers. He only published it openly when it was weakened and no longer very relevant. I was pretty disgusted by that, tbh.

OBJnoob

Yeah I agree with Skara completely. There are different types of people, for sure. Me? I get excited when someone asks what I'm using because I normally run weird builds and I'm secretly just waiting for someone to ask.

But we are talking pvp here. Player versus player. It shouldn't be expected for them to help you... You're their competition.

Fortunately you've found the place to get good advice-- these forums-- but you'll notice most of us don't know each other and that's kinda what makes it work. Skara already told you how he feels. But I bet if i asked his build he'd tell me. Because questions like that are appropriate here. Because he is here to type-- whereas he's in ESO to play. And because he has never seen me on an opposing team LOL.

I understand that you're expecting "better sportsmanship," OP, but I think you should also understand it's a competition. It's really up to you to bridge the gap-- yes using whatever resources you can find-- but perhaps your competition isn't the best resource.

fred4

OBJnoob wrote: »

Fortunately you've found the place to get good advice-- these forums.

Well, yes, you have the space and time to spell stuff out, here, but you get mostly standard advice that everyone knows. You want intricate knowledge, you're not going to find much of that here, unless maybe you hunt in the bug and PTS forums. For me these have been things like:

• Gaze of Sithis allowing to block in the Ravenwatch campaign for a while (fixed).
• Being able to double proc Concealed Weapon for +50% speed in cloak in very old patches.
• The Vateshran 2H proc carrying over to the other bar (normal behavior - you just need to know).
• Melee flanking (DW) heavy attacks from crouch / out of combat hitting super hard (may not apply anymore since U35 I'm guessing).
• Asylum destro creating additional / overlapping status effects that can be boosted with Draugrkin.

chessalavakia_ESO

Keep in mind people on youtube can get money/significant attention for posting content and as a result will frequently feel information is worth giving up.

People that put lots of effort into a build may be less inclined to share especially if they think the build is a driver of their success.

People that hunt you all over the map are perhaps less likely to be nice and as a result may be more likely to go silent.

Additionally, some people view their success as primarily being skill based and so asking about the build may imply it's the build not them.

Indigogo

Is there a general problem with people not directing others to solid, meta, beginner friendly set ups?
Thats sad if so, I haven't encountered it.

But it's a big yikes if we're getting salty about a stranger not wanting to give out their secret sauce recipe. Buy them dinner first.

Aside from the certainty of nerfs once something goes mainstream, those carefully crafted, non meta builds are often useless in the hands of a less skilled player.
Couldn't survive or sustain it because they lack the experience to make it work.
I can think of some builds I've run that were super effective for me, but I would have been an irresponsible idiot to recommend it to anyone else.

Stick to meta builds. Play more. Join guilds. Make friends and start theory crafting.

When you can figure out a build without asking, you are ready to run that build young grasshopper.

Tannus15

How is someone not telling you their build, or even no wanting to talk to you "gate keeping"?

Someone not telling you something isn't keeping you from participating or preventing you from doing any content. There are plenty of resources online with lists of sets available in the game, or addons if you're playing on PC, that you can use to research options.

that said, as others have pointed out, knowing the sets and skills is barely half the information required to make a build work. I copied a basic stamdk build "back in the day" but then had to spend hours duelling friends to work out how it's meant to work and where it's limits lie so i know when to pressure, when to burst and when to back off. and then using it in cyro or bg's was another learning experience because a 1v1 duel is different to team arenas or zone pugs.

on the tutorial and in game support front everyone agrees that currently these are completely lacking and basically useless for both pve and pvp. it's been highlighted over and over in response to the "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" garbage that keeps being spouted.

more than any balance change, what zos needs to do is teach players how the game works.
it doesn't matter how much damage a light attack does if people have no real understanding of the combat system

Xuhora

i remember how a thread came up, dont recall when it was, but basicly OP asked why there is no inspect player function like in other MMOs.
I think the resonance was mostly negative, due to the fear of "gatekeeping through inspection"

im a player since beta, with some on and off phases (currently in an off phase, for obvious reasons) so i know my way arround gear, setups, and sources where to get them. but due to my off-phase i started other games, Destiny 2 is one, WoW is the other.
my knowledge in these games is mediocre and ever so often i encounter a player in my group or as my oponent who absolutly crushes, has a badass appearance, or does something what seems impossible for me. in these cases, i can simply inspect these players and learn about the build or cosmetics used.
it helps me alot getting a foot in this games, as in i can just copy something i experienced working first hand and i dont have to search the internet for respected build-crafters.

on the flipside, there was one occasion, where i recieved a DM from one in my team, beeing pretty salty, asking why im rocking that one particular part of my build, since it was BS. As i responded that im fairly new to this game, thinking this Mod (it was destiny 2) workes like that. My salty groupmate then became really friendly, explained what i got wrong and i could change my build and learn about the game.

in conclusion; i think the inspection function could help newer players in PVE and PVP reach new strength and those who dont want it and are happy the way they play dont have to use it. the positive impact outweights the negative occaisons of A-holes gatekeeping a PUG in craglorn.

Pepegrillos

The pvp culture of this game revolves around leveraging any advantage you have so as to make the encounters as unfair as possible. Granted, though, this is mostly a Cyrodiil-IC thing. The craze they have for '1vXing', which is an equivalent of stomping players that are almost by definition worse than you, or baby seal clubbing as some call it, it's an expression of that culture.

In general, people in the bg community seem more open to sharing, though there are exceptions, like in all things.

I remember a while back when the Undertaker set was bugged, a streamer, S*k***, kept being asked on stream by new players about the sets they were using. Every single person who got in that chat and asked was told the set was Pariah. It wasn't, it was Undertaker. By contrast, you can go to Decimus' stream and ask for his builds. He won't just show them, but also explain you how they work.

Vulkunne

Fabi95 wrote: »

Hi everyone, I'm genuinely curious and like to hear some point of views from you. In this case, I'm speaking particularly of PvP ingame (not content on Youtube as that is already public). Also because for PvE, players mostly run the same setups.

I had interesting encounters where I got genuinely curious about the build somebody used. At times, people asked me after a Battlegrounds game and I happily answered. Including links to the UESP build editor and videos (e.g. great guides from DeltiasGaming). But whenever I ask, in 98% of the cases I don't get a response. The juicy detail: It's often players who chased me across the entire map, just to get a single kill on me. It leaves a sour impression to say the least, considering it's intentional targeting (but that's another story).

Mind you, I'm not even asking often. There is much I can still recognize myself, such as proc sets. Yet the intransparency and gatekeeping of builds isn't fun(ny) though. It's like as if real competition isn't encouraged by some. And that it kind of comes down to perceived unfair advantages - including to hide what exactly is being used.

Personally I feel it would be helpful if an inspect feature was a thing in ESO. Even if it was just part of the death recap. But since it's not, oftentimes the experiences remain completely mysterious. And in the worst case, downright frustrating. Because this is especially discouraging for PvP newcomers. You probably know situations when you had a player in a group who had 20.000 health or less. When they end up getting one-shot, you probably think "it's no surprise" - but to them it is a surprise. For example: Imagine when you were a new player, and then discovered that the Balorghs set exists.

Where I wonder:
Why is it seemingly frowned upon to educate players more, and that players end up forced to "figure it out themselves"?
Is there still actual fun involved when build gatekeeping is deemed necessary? What could be the reasons? And where is the community spirit in that?
Do you think there is a mindset disparity between ESO PvP players ingame, compared to players you see on Youtube? (inside comments or popular content creators)
And: What could be done to make the experience more fun, welcoming and fair for everyone? Could an inspect feature be the solution?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts, I appreciate your insight!

Been playing PvP for years and believe I can provide a satisfactory response to your inquiry here.

a) Some players, especially certain Streamers, have been well known for complaining about other players using builds they don't like. This is a reason why some of us don't PvP with our best builds because we don't want to *** off some influencer and get our builds nerfed.

b) PvP is very competitive and is similar to sports where rivalries and lasting feuds can develop in a really short amount of time. Vendettas can also spawn from these feuds and see Factions, Guilds, Teams or even individual people take things personal and I've seen some conflicts go on for quite a while. Just like in real life, we don't share our methods to protect our cause.

c) Faction shamers. So many times while in Cyrodiil some of us might discuss certain item sets or combat mechanics. Recently, I broke up with a certain Alliance after having multiple conflicts involving Guilds, Lies and certain nasty people who are unfairly, unjustly and over-the-top Critical about people setting up their builds in a certain way. Now, I don't have to tell you I'm one of those weirdos who questions everything and thinks outside the box. This is made others interested in my work but sadly has also made me overtly hated by people looking to prove a point. Thus, for the sake of peace, I do not discuss my builds, including any philosophy behind them.

Overall, I think in many ways people and the competitive nature of PvP are the reason that there are some things that should be left unknown and its also the mystery of what you're going up against that helps make PvP that much more interesting.

fred4

Tannus15 wrote: »

more than any balance change, what zos needs to do is teach players how the game works.

In single-player games, discovering how to play is part of the fun. It's questionable whether this works for an MMO, but I think ZOS' mindset is firmly rooted in Skyrim and the earlier games of the series. I don't know whether this is right or wrong. In more linear games, your challenges and learning curve can also be very deliberately paced by the developer. ESO struggles mightily with that part.

What do I think ZOS believe? I don't believe they are shooting for a stable and balanced game anymore. You can't do this volume of regular combat changes and arrive at really good balance. I think they believe that meta shakeups keep people engaged, that they give buildcrafters stuff to discover they themselves haven't fully thought through or not implemented properly, and that this is a good thing. If it doesn't end up being too much out of balance, a feature stays, otherwise it gets nerfed. As a consequence there will always be different things of varying OPness at different times that are not widely known. Hunting for those things seems to have become part of the game's appeal. At any rate, ZOS have said they're not doing a tutorial, because of the ongoing maintenance that would be required to said tutorial, e.g. due to combat changing so much from patch to patch.

PvP is very hard to teach, though. I see how new players behave. They don't block or don't dodge, or do so too much. They don't buff or they overbuff and waste resources on expensive skills. They don't line-of-sight when they should. They may not weave. They don't watch their health bar and heal early enough. They don't realize when they are being bursted and when to defend. It can be easy to spot a new player. Trying to disagnose and help players who are missing some but not all of those aspects, who may be slightly slow in their reactions or do the wrong thing at the wrong time, that is actually really hard, even in a duel. There's nothing like practice.

SPR_of_HA_community

Fabi95 wrote: »

Hi everyone, I'm genuinely curious and like to hear some point of views from you. In this case, I'm speaking particularly of PvP ingame (not content on Youtube as that is already public). Also because for PvE, players mostly run the same setups.

I had interesting encounters where I got genuinely curious about the build somebody used. At times, people asked me after a Battlegrounds game and I happily answered. Including links to the UESP build editor and videos (e.g. great guides from DeltiasGaming). But whenever I ask, in 98% of the cases I don't get a response. The juicy detail: It's often players who chased me across the entire map, just to get a single kill on me. It leaves a sour impression to say the least, considering it's intentional targeting (but that's another story).

Mind you, I'm not even asking often. There is much I can still recognize myself, such as proc sets. Yet the intransparency and gatekeeping of builds isn't fun(ny) though. It's like as if real competition isn't encouraged by some. And that it kind of comes down to perceived unfair advantages - including to hide what exactly is being used.

Personally I feel it would be helpful if an inspect feature was a thing in ESO. Even if it was just part of the death recap. But since it's not, oftentimes the experiences remain completely mysterious. And in the worst case, downright frustrating. Because this is especially discouraging for PvP newcomers. You probably know situations when you had a player in a group who had 20.000 health or less. When they end up getting one-shot, you probably think "it's no surprise" - but to them it is a surprise. For example: Imagine when you were a new player, and then discovered that the Balorghs set exists.

Where I wonder:
Why is it seemingly frowned upon to educate players more, and that players end up forced to "figure it out themselves"?
Is there still actual fun involved when build gatekeeping is deemed necessary? What could be the reasons? And where is the community spirit in that?
Do you think there is a mindset disparity between ESO PvP players ingame, compared to players you see on Youtube? (inside comments or popular content creators)
And: What could be done to make the experience more fun, welcoming and fair for everyone? Could an inspect feature be the solution?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts, I appreciate your insight!

As example - when HA builds become popular, they get nerfs just the same time.

If you show some popular builds - it is not some tresure in it. As example Deltas builds. Some players like builds with some unique idea and they do not want it be nerfed.

It is not hard just to max stats and do some 1-2-3 combo (if your skills press).

Some players did really treaky combos before, but if it becomes famause it is more easy to understand hot to protect against it.

The other category is players that just play bad and want any good builds, they just do not like, be nerfed to zero, as example - you can see what happened with HA builds, that were in game more than 7 years, but when they become a little popular - toxic players start wine about them and they were nerfed, the same time more better builds still exist.

But those players are not smart enough, to understand how they work and nerf them (they do not understand what to nerf), but as example builds on HA was clearly visible, it was not hard to understand that it was HA builds just looking on HA

feyii

Not getting answers could be for some very profane reasons, which have nothing to do with gatekeeping builds. Two such reasons that immediately come to my mind:

1. Mostly on EU servers but you will encounter it on NA as well - a simple language barrier. Not everyone can speak or just understand English.
2. People might have set themselves to show as offline. Iirc, this setting prevents them from getting whispers. And in that case they wouldn't be aware that you asked at all.

fred4

feyii wrote: »

2. People might have set themselves to show as offline. Iirc, this setting prevents them from getting whispers. And in that case they wouldn't be aware that you asked at all.

In that case you would know, because whatever you type to that player doesn't appear in your chat history. Point 1 is very true, though. Sometimes, when I try to talk to someone, I eventually get a Cyrillic response. Not even the alphabet is the same.

LesserCircle

Sometimes I feel like many PvP builds you can find on youtube and other sites are very... Ok-ish while people in the game have crazy builds that are super tanky and can do a lot of daamge, there's a certain level of gatekeeping for sure.

VaranisArano

A. There's a lot of problems with an Inspect feature. You don't like people keeping their builds secret. But consider that an Inspect feature would be used to enforce the more traditional form of gatekeeping: "You're gear isn't good enough. Vote kick."

B. Without an Inspect feature, all you can do is ask politely. There's lots of reasons why people might say no. I don't think it's helpful to assume that they are trying to keep you down.


C. There's lots of good PvP builds out there, but they won't help unless you already know how to PVP. New players struggle because PVE doesn't prepare them for PVP at all. NPCs are dumb compared to other players, you know?

I'm one of those players who can slap on a meta PVP build, but can't perform anywhere near as good as more experienced players without a LOT of practice.

So for new PVPers, I generally don't recommend copying meta builds. That's because those players frequently lack all the other things that you only learn through experience, and thus they don't perform well.

PVP requires learning a whole new set of tactics and visual cues. It means having situational awareness in unpredictable fights and using the environment to your advantage. It reverses the combat mechanics of PVE - healing has to be proactive before you get hit, and damage dealing either comes in a big burst at the beginning or you save it until your opponent is weak.

If you already have all those things, a meta build can put you over the top. If you don't, well, when I was learning to PVP I found myself better served by wearing gear that kept me alive long enough to learn all that stuff.

Dem_kitkats1

I'm not in any serious PvP guilds, but most of the people I meet on random BG teams, and in open world are actually very happy to discuss builds (PCNA). I can understand why some people would be secretive though.

@fred4 made a very good point about how strong builds that become popular are often nerfed. So in that sense I could see why players would be reluctant to spread the word on theorycrafted builds that they spent hours on. To put hours and gold into farming, and testing a build for it to be nerfed 3 months later would be frustrating for anyone.

Sometimes I think the context and the way in which people ask can also lead to players being petty. A "Gf. What are your running?", compared to an angry whisper along the lines of, "what are you using that could make you even capable of killing me?" to call them out could be the difference between a player revealing their build or not.

This is also PvP, if a player has found a build that gives them an advantage over others, of course they may be unwilling to give that away.

On the forums though, lots of experienced players have been very helpful and open when it comes to discussing builds, which is awesome to see.

SpacemanSpiff1

inspect bad.

do a little research or join a guild if you need help.

Amottica

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

It's a competitive game.

Some players spend 20-30+ hours optimizing a single build. Why give out all that hard work? It's like creating a startup and then giving out your trade secrets to your competitors. It makes no sense.

Explaining a build to someone takes a lot of time. It's not just "here use these 2 or 3 sets" and magically become strong. Sets, traits, enchants, backbar/frontbar weapons, poisons, potions, food, mundus, skills, how to block weave, how to bash weave, how to bash + light attack weave, etc. I'm not explaining all of that. I don't use UESP because 1) some of the math is wrong, and 2) theorycrafting builds often doesn't translate to in-game results. You need to make small changes to your build and go validate those changes. See what works by testing it in PvP, not in a build editor.

This is because some people may not notice the whisper or are just too busy to reply. This does not lead to anything that is unfair.

I see two sides to the lack of inspection. I have used it in other games to see how someone tweaked their build. It was helpful because that information also indicated if they were a good player since the higher level gear was only available from doing higher level content.

That does not apply to ESO. Also, we have a degree of toxicity among those who run in random groups vs. guild groups and other structured groups. Even though I am talking about a small portion of the player base that toxicity is not good for the game.

Billium813

Fabi95 wrote: »

It's often players who chased me across the entire map, just to get a single kill on me. It leaves a sour impression to say the least, considering it's intentional targeting (but that's another story).

Obviously, I don't know the full story here, but it could come off like you are mocking them or calling them out for behavior. I don't think that really inspires collaboration or a willingness to be open. That may also make players focus you more. If they perceive you are mocking them, they may double down and want to prove they can win or that their build/strategy works.

I think it's all about your approach and the context you are asking in. If you ask someone for their build, and they aren't doing well, they may think you are making fun of them or judging them. If you are currently dominating, it also might come across as insincere. Remember that they have no way of knowing your intention or tone. You may be coming across as an expert to them and that can be intimidating. Not all players want to be told they are doing something wrong by someone dominating them. Some players want to figure it out themselves.

Just remember that failing in PvE and failing in PvP are two VERY DIFFERENT things.

PvP can feel really scary for players. In PvE, if you are dying or losing, it's really easy to just blame RNG and try again. In solo PvE, no one is around to see you fail and that removes MUCH of the embarrassment too! In group PvE, there is a feeling of winning or failing together and that you can figure this thing out and overcome it; the content is made to be defeated after all!
In PvP, players can feel exposed and their skill/competence is on display! Not only does it not feel like RNG can be blamed anymore, but now you feel like your failures are on full display. Playing PvP is very much putting yourself out there for judgement. You aren't losing to a mindless bot anymore, you are losing to a real person that might teabag your dead body and call you a noob.

PvP is also very personal. Players may not know "how to PvP" or are running their own build. They may not know what the meta is and fear being judged for building something "bad" or off-meta. Not all players want their inabilities pointed out or their issues laid bare. They don't want other players telling them what they are doing wrong and they don't want to grow by being told what to do better. They want to figure it out themselves.

gariondavey

Want to know something interesting?
I was playing on my hybrid templar last night, doing some bgs and duels with some friends (Who are some of the best players on pcna).
One of my friends explained to me that my skill placement (front bar back bar for 2 abilities) was decreasing my chance of winning.

That seemed wild to me, but my damage output went up over 1000 dps against him in a duel by putting my honor the dead on the front bar (instead of back) and my vigor on back bar (instead of front), and by standing in my rune more (instead of attempting to kite).

Same gear.
Same skills, just with burst heal front bar now and heal over time back bar
Beam/jabs/htd/camo hunter/blood craze, dawnbreaker
Rat/ele sus/vigor/living dark/rune/precog

I have 5 years of experience doing pvp in this game, hundreds if not thousands of hours of theorycrafting (and group theorycrafting with extremely experienced players), and yet...with 1 tiny change my output went out dramatically.

While gatekeeping may be a thing, finding skilled players who have good hearts and are willing to help you improve isn't impossible. Many of those players will share their builds, too. Skill is honestly the biggest factor in improvement, but many players look for other things as to why they lose.

Find yourself a senpai and get fine-tuning/training and watch the improvement occur!

opalcity

It's not gatekeeping. PvP is a competition - if you have an edge, you want to keep it, not give it out to the enemy so they can counter it.

Four_Fingers

Just because you find out a build won't mean you know how to use it.

Fabi95

I'm back and try to respond to your reactions, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

It's a competitive game. Some players spend 20-30+ hours optimizing a single build. Why give out all that hard work? It's like creating a startup and then giving out your trade secrets to your competitors. It makes no sense.

I see where you are coming from. Even when I feel differently about it, because I would never compare a game with real-world trading secrets. In my eyes, part of competition in a game is to have a balanced challenge, not one-sided matches to "pwn" others. Which is why I personally am open to tell things, even when there is not much time. But the great thing is really, you care at least. You tell a legit reason. In other scenarios, I'm left wondering what the real reason might be.

Because when things like a set loadout are "secret" - is this still about fun? I think there may be a similarity with people who find overland content too easy, and people who wish others to be an even playing field in PvP. Because there is target groups too who enjoy "nuking" things, whether it's in PvE and PvP. I suppose it goes into this direction, but feel free to correct me.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Explaining a build to someone takes a lot of time. It's not just "here use these 2 or 3 sets" and magically become strong.

That's true. In some of my social experiences I had, it's less about "it's so much to tell". Rather no willingness to say anything. I can recognize skills, recognize most proc sets. Quite a few body sets cannot always be recognized though. An MMO is still (to me) a social experience, even in areas where fellow players are combatants.

Where the sour taste I have comes from, that some still expect to have people in Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, etc. But secrecy, which I perceive as the 'gatekeeping', does not help the PvP population in the slightest. Let's imagine, most of the PvP players leave, even the casual ones. What worth do these secret setups then have in that case?

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

I don't use UESP because 1) some of the math is wrong

Feel free to make a little report on their site though! Their author is really attentive and reactive with issues.

Lumenn wrote: »

As has been said here there is a lot of theory involved in a good build. Some will share, some won't type all that out(especially brutal on Xbox if you don't have a keyboard)

Ah I should note, my experiences are on PC EU. So typing-barriers are unlikely to be an issue.

Lumenn wrote: »

A second point is things have a tendency to be...adjusted, should it get too popular. Some builds work because not everyone is using them and they're not posted on social media.....

Interesting point of view. I do remember from a DeltiasGaming video that Savage Werewolf set got nerfed, which was a popular choice. In that regard it seems understandable that there is fear attached to things changing again. Even when I personally believe that openness would still help, especially seeing how many players benefit from openly shared knowledge (e.g. on Youtube with Deltia).

There is a video from DeltiasGaming titled "EXPOSING ESO PvP: What the TOP players are hiding from you!". And while that video then proceeds to cover basics, to me this invokes hints at this social situation ingame. Which ultimately shows, there is quite a lot of barriers involved getting into PvP. Which makes one think: Do there really need to be social barriers then as well?
It is then unfortunately understandable, when some players proceed to leave the PvP side of this game completely in the dust. Which I think is ultimately bad for both sides.

fred4 wrote: »

This used to annoy me, but on the other hand you very pointedly refer to "perceived unfair advantages". I think you are very much correct there. While there are, or have been, exceptions, I think players tend to overrate builds.

Builds also need to fit with your playstyle, muscle memory and objectives. For example, as a usually fast and sustainy player, I know I would not be happy playing the less sustainy, slower, but harder bursting builds that sometimes kill me.

Thanks for understanding where I'm coming from. I agree with you; to clarify I'm not thinking that copying builds works and then it's successful. In fact, it is mere curiosity because I wish to understand the game's depth and class synergies with builds better. Since to me, there is no better way of learning than combining practice with theory (and vice versa), which Battlegrounds PvP is in my eyes. As champion abilities are missing there, all that remains is class skills, sets, and a player's own skill.

fred4 wrote: »

Would I like to know what other people are running? Yeah. Not that you necessarily understand why their build works from that, what their exact playstyle is, and what borderline exploits they're knowingly or unknowingly using.

Great point with the "borderline exploits". Recently I only learned from DeltiasGaming, that Dragonknights can repeatedly spam "Ash Cloud" to trade ~300 magicka for ~900 stamina. Which looks like a design oversight, because spamming repeatedly does also not trigger the initial flame explosion damage (limited to every 10 seconds). But in the end, it's one of those sneaky things that can be a real game changer in PvP situations.

fred4 wrote: »

PvP has always reminded me of schoolyard bullying from time to time. You don't engage in conversation with bullies. It's usually not productive.

I wish though that it's not the case. Especially since I see lots of average players in Battlegrounds. Even though I know what you mean too, when I think of that scenario where I was chased across the entire map. At that stage it's clear to me, that this isn't involving fun, which is disappointing to witness.

fred4 wrote: »

Then again, I also came across a YouTuber who talked about a set and playstyle interaction that he had previously only made available to Patreon subscribers. He only published it openly when it was weakened and no longer very relevant. I was pretty disgusted by that, tbh.

Thanks for bringing this up, because this is what my original question is about. Very curious to hear it can be a thing on Youtube too.

Fabi95

OBJnoob wrote: »

I understand that you're expecting "better sportsmanship," OP, but I think you should also understand it's a competition. It's really up to you to bridge the gap-- yes using whatever resources you can find-- but perhaps your competition isn't the best resource.

Ya I understand the "competition" part, where (thanks to your response and others) I learned now it must be the sportmanship thing where views differ. Because my own view is, that it's lame to create artificial barriers for ... satisfaction to pwn somebody? It's not really an environment where I would be happy to keep participating. But at the same time, I find this game exciting and engaging how things can work together. The suggestion with a PvP guild is definitely something I will look at.

Tannus15 wrote: »

How is someone not telling you their build, or even no wanting to talk to you "gate keeping"?

Someone not telling you something isn't keeping you from participating or preventing you from doing any content. There are plenty of resources online with lists of sets available in the game, or addons if you're playing on PC, that you can use to research options.

Even when I believe that, this is up for debate as well and why I created this discussion. The thought of "gatekeeping" came to my mind at the point, when for example I have a death/kill ratio of 25/7 in Battlegrounds - yet the very player who killed me 7 times has zero interest in saying anything. How do I know? Because I use group chat for communication, I whisper messages when someone did really great in the team, etc. In such cases, there was almost always a response. At that point, it just feels like no coincidence anymore.

And you are right that I can keep playing. The original question is about class builds themselves (and social things involving it), not gatekeeping of content. The (PvP) content is technically accessible after all, anyone can enter - even when said accessibility is then highly volatile in perception of the outcomes. A comment like this implies that getting into it is indeed seen as a struggle.

Tannus15 wrote: »

more than any balance change, what zos needs to do is teach players how the game works.
it doesn't matter how much damage a light attack does if people have no real understanding of the combat system

Yeah, this plays a part as well, mainly in the early stages. Some sort of dedicated practice and mechanic-learning area would be amazing. Especially something like that for PvP would make it way more accessible, without intimidating people who get started. Even with the MMR system in Battlegrounds, it doesn't feel right when newcomers have to witness 0/16 kill-death ratio games. It kinda seems so avoidable to be honest, both in what the game and community can teach, and obviously the player themselves too.

Xuhora wrote: »

i remember how a thread came up, dont recall when it was, but basicly OP asked why there is no inspect player function like in other MMOs.
I think the resonance was mostly negative, due to the fear of "gatekeeping through inspection"

my knowledge in these games is mediocre and ever so often i encounter a player in my group or as my oponent who absolutly crushes, has a badass appearance, or does something what seems impossible for me. in these cases, i can simply inspect these players and learn about the build or cosmetics used.
it helps me alot getting a foot in this games, as in i can just copy something i experienced working first hand and i dont have to search the internet for respected build-crafters.

in conclusion; i think the inspection function could help newer players in PVE and PVP reach new strength and those who dont want it and are happy the way they play dont have to use it. the positive impact outweights the negative occaisons of A-holes gatekeeping a PUG in craglorn.

Awesome to hear that such a feature can indeed be beneficial! I think it is particularly ironic why an inspect feature is suspected to gatekeeping, when in fact it does largely do the completely opposite: In a game with literally 100s of sets, this would bring much needed transparency. So the education factor with this would (in my eyes) far surpass the few judging incididents.

Also because if we look at the judging part: Players who want to judge could do that already with meta sets, when they don't see a Relequen proc effect, etc. Ironically it's what I once witnessed in a heated PvE dungeon run last year.

VaranisArano

YouTubers want views. If sharing builds gets them views, they'll do it.

That's a totally different POV than your average opponent in PVP, who usually wants to kill players, get AP, win matches or have a good K/D records, and sometimes just wants to get a rise out of someone. Sharing builds is low on the priority list, and might even be counterproductive to their goals.

As a general rule of thumb, your opponent is not responsible for making PVP a welcoming experience for you.

I see this confusion a lot from PVEers during Whitestrakes Mayhem. They struggle with the idea that PVP is inherently competitive, not cooperative.

It's not to say that you can't take a cooperative attitude towards your opponents, but you can't dictate that attitude to other players any more than you can tell a sports team to share their plays with the opposing side.


So what's the solution? How do we make PVP more welcoming towards new players and PVEers?

Stop looking to your opponents to welcome you and tell you what you need to know.

Look to your allies!

Pay attention to your teammates in BGs. If someone's doing really well, try asking them for their tips so you can be a better teammate.

The best help I've gotten as I learned to PVP was from the organized groups on my Cyrodiil campaigns, and the group that eventually became my PVP guild. They were a rich source of information about builds and tactics because there were a lot of experienced players who played different roles, and they all wanted to help their guildmate succeed.

Youtubers will tell you builds in exchange for views. Your opponents get nothing out of helping you aside from warm fuzzies and a harder fight next time. So if you want a welcoming experience amongst PVPers or you really want to work on your builds, you'll have much better luck making friends and finding allies.

Vevvev

As others have stated trying to explain a build takes forever and you might end up typing the same thing over and over again to the same person who just. doesn't. get it.

I can't give someone my sets I use, what abilities, and then pat them on the back and send them on their way. They have to know how I block attacks, how I read my opponents, how I keep my buffs up, when I pop my set buffs, when I down potions, when and where I enter/leave Mistform, how I set up my bursts so the skills are used to their greatest advantage, when and where to hold block on points as well as where to point your character, etc....

It's a lot to cover, and most if it comes down to skill so the whole "Figure it out yourself" stance is actually kind of accurate. We can give you pointers, but you can't just grind the abilities/sets and expect to be good instantly out of the box.