Year Long Stories are killing your characters \\ Jan19, Empty promise

TiaFrye

Hi. So, at the beginning of this year I was hopeful. I even did a thread on how new chapter slightly acknowledged our character's previous deeds and I really liked that part. At this point I already knew a major spoiler about villain's identity, I didn't liked it a bit. I also didn't like that what marketing promised about this year's antagonist was quite different from what I saw in the chapter. Jokes on me, right? But I stayed hopeful.

Until I couldn't anymore.

Please, know that I speak only from deep and strong love to this game. I gave this game almost 8 years of my life in money, content as an artist and my time. All I want for this game is to stay strong, alive and to stay the king of quests in MMOs like it was for years for me.
What made it "the king" you ask? Your characters did.

Dear ZOS, it's been 4 seasons of year long stories since your last act in the Daedric War storyline Arc. And now I think it's safe to assume that a few more of these and it's done.
If you continue to use Year Long Stories model soon there will be no joy in questing because the urge to skip will be unstoppable.
It's not just my opinion otherwise I wouldn't be confident enough to write about this. I see people talking.
There's other points to view the problem from but I want to look at it from the point where chosen cast of characters no longer supports the story you want to tell.
And here's why:

People are having a hard time bonding with your new characters. It's hard to care about people who order you around like an expendable and disappear never to be seen again after the big ending. No amount of heroic titles given to you before that can change how it feels. You had a few nice new characters this year and I was very exited to meet them... but you made me grind in a card game to progress their questline.

I know it's hard to reach the plank raised by some of your most prominent returnees - but, again, maybe let them carry it for you and add new characters to grow in their shine and return newbies later, more beloved and strong? I mean, you basically did that with new member of the Ravenwatch. People are practically begging you to bring him back, right?
But with a pros comes a big con - you butchered a recurring character's arc in the process. Because if a new player plays your latest dlc with this character first any growth he had in this dlc will be erased by what he's about to do in the base game for that player to see. I can remember at least two more characters from base game main questline none the less to be affected by this. I can remember a character you brought back for an event to meet again and speak to like nothing happened after a major part of your player base has a burning question to ask her about what happened back in Summerset leading from Morrowind.

So you decided to froze any recurring characters for year long stories' MQs starting from Blackwood in a neutral state and it only made things worse. I see people asking where's the growth but it can't be where everything is happening at the same time in any order. Even worse - they seem to be not important anymore. Their return is irrelevant to the story. They are treated in the same line as the player is nowadays. Mercenary. Not a Vestige. It might work for some but even with it you give too little credit to your new players. In dialogue and in stories that might interest them to start playing base game content. Hell, it seems new players suffer even more from your model than older ones. They just haven't realized that.

Your villains are not interesting either. I won't even start on "Disney's secret villain" situation. For that part to work you not only have to make us trust and like the person, you also have to make the betrayal reasonable. You also keep teasing us with "oh, it might be a gray morale character this year!" but they are all end up to be a murderous bunch only for a few players to actually try to deconstruct. I know why. Because giving us even a little chance to switch allegiance will ruin linear story progression you already built in advance.
Same goes for any extended dialogue with any of our former friends. Despite being bros they will talk to us the same way as they do with new players they're seeing for the first time in their live. It's actually depressing.

I know that your year-end DLC for the next "season" is probably in heavy production already, but PLEASE. Consider switching back to Arc model in 2024.
Give your stories and characters more time and space to breathe. Don't rush things forward. Make things have consequences again.

I won't be asking for a clear timeline or order here, even though educating your newer players about to what story you're doing a sequel in X year by simply saying "hey now it's good time to visit this base game/older dlc zone before playing our new dlc" is something you already done before and it's a great way to prepare people.
I'm only asking you to take your time and let us be immersed in your stories again. Please.

Sailor_Palutena

I remember loving the Morrowind > Clockwork City > Summerset arc. It was what made me a big fan of TESO. Elsewyr was cool with the dragon theme and the Queen, but after that, it was just a chain of uninteresting stories. I only play for the gameplay, not for the story anymore.

Necrotech_Master

i think my main dislike for the year long stories is the really long time investment for a lower payout

it would also help to have more varied content, as the main focus being one particular theme for a whole year it gets kind of idk less interesting

murkmire and wrothgar were 1-off zones doing their own thing that had their own stories and adventures, same with thieves guild and dark brotherhood

i mean thieves guild even had a whole trial with its dlc (maw of lorkhaj) that had nothing to do with the thieves guild itself

not to mention trying to tie 4 dungeons + 1 trial + 1 chapter expansion + 1 dlc zone expansion to the same story to some people just feels like a huge cash grab if they wanted to actually experience the story but to understand things that happen you need 3 dlcs + an expansion

dungeons i feel could be great 1-off quick stories as they are all instanced and dont necessarily have to relate to any existing storyline (or even a trial, like maw of lorkhaj was with the thieves guild)

polishing the content more instead of forcing it to stretch over so much might be a good start to increasing quality

TiaFrye

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

I remember loving the Morrowind > Clockwork City > Summerset arc. It was what made me a big fan of TESO. Elsewyr was cool with the dragon theme and the Queen, but after that, it was just a chain of uninteresting stories. I only play for the gameplay, not for the story anymore.

Agreed.

What made Summerset great is the build up, writing and characters. Yet during GoO season ending we see that from the viewpoint of the studio referencing infamous "portal sequence" of another IPs arc with even longer build up to its epic ending - that's what makes something great. But it doesn't.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think my main dislike for the year long stories is the really long time investment for a lower payout

it would also help to have more varied content, as the main focus being one particular theme for a whole year it gets kind of idk less interesting

murkmire and wrothgar were 1-off zones doing their own thing that had their own stories and adventures, same with thieves guild and dark brotherhood

i mean thieves guild even had a whole trial with its dlc (maw of lorkhaj) that had nothing to do with the thieves guild itself

not to mention trying to tie 4 dungeons + 1 trial + 1 chapter expansion + 1 dlc zone expansion to the same story to some people just feels like a huge cash grab if they wanted to actually experience the story but to understand things that happen you need 3 dlcs + an expansion

dungeons i feel could be great 1-off quick stories as they are all instanced and dont necessarily have to relate to any existing storyline (or even a trial, like maw of lorkhaj was with the thieves guild)

polishing the content more instead of forcing it to stretch over so much might be a good start to increasing quality

I think anything that will stop the rush will help the game in general. I fully realize that a single theme for a year is actually "better" in terms of cheapening development, it lets you re-use once created assets across multiple dlcs, you only need to chop one story in parts instead writing multiple and trying to intertwine them in meaningful way.

But it's bad for the game. They need to see that before it's too late.

TaSheen

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

TiaFrye

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

TaSheen

2017 in July, so One Tam was up and running. I never played ESO in 'the old days". I have played all the single player games since 1994 with Arena's release; the only one I did not play for thousands of hours was Morrowind - because I'm not a fan of Dunmer at all, and in ESO, I'm not a fan of any of the Pact areas or their quests. I ran one of my mains through Cadwell's Silver and Gold, and that's the last time I'll be doing that.

Then again, I'm equally not fond of Altmer. My favorite races are Redguard, Breton, and Bosmer, followed closely by Imperials and Khajiit. I do have a few Dunmer and Altmer though they don't get a lot of playing time. I never make Orcs, Nords, or Argonians.

It took me a very long time to sort out combat in this game, and I'm still not very good at it - I'm older, my reflexes aren't that great any more, and the only connection I have is satellite - which comes with nearly-permanent 999+ ping.

Soarora

Totally agree. Nothing will beat Summerset for me as long as this keeps up. There’s no time to get attached to characters when you only know them for like… 6 quests and they aren’t even a main focus in those quests. And ZOS is now afraid to kill off reoccurring characters. The deaths in High Isle only felt impactful because it was impactful for the characters around me. I could not care less about… almost all the High Isle and Blackwood main characters. Now, the story DLC and chapter aren’t even a continued story! “You can play them in any order without any affect on the plot” has to stop. The depth and interest is gone. There are no stakes.
Also, Fargrave hinted at so much and I have absolutely 0 faith any of those loose ends will be brought back up due to the “year long” story format.

Necrotech_Master

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

TiaFrye

TaSheen wrote: »

2017 in July, so One Tam was up and running. I never played ESO in 'the old days". I have played all the single player games since 1994 with Arena's release; the only one I did not play for thousands of hours was Morrowind - because I'm not a fan of Dunmer at all, and in ESO, I'm not a fan of any of the Pact areas or their quests. I ran one of my mains through Cadwell's Silver and Gold, and that's the last time I'll be doing that.

Then again, I'm equally not fond of Altmer. My favorite races are Redguard, Breton, and Bosmer, followed closely by Imperials and Khajiit. I do have a few Dunmer and Altmer though they don't get a lot of playing time. I never make Orcs, Nords, or Argonians.

It took me a very long time to sort out combat in this game, and I'm still not very good at it - I'm older, my reflexes aren't that great any more, and the only connection I have is satellite - which comes with nearly-permanent 999+ ping.

I see. For a lot of us, who started to play pre One Tamriel or was inspired by community's love towards some characters and took base game route to get to know them better a bigger part of Morrowind, CWC and Summerset's greatness was in characters we know, love, have a bond with and wait for continuation of their story.

I guess "no strings attached" vibe year long stories give to some is good enough for newer player, it is targeted towards them by design and I understand why someone would not have time and patience for a deep dive in older content.
For some people like me keeping in touch with narrative trough characters we love is an important part. I speak for these people here.

Oakenaxe

Yes! Disconnecting every chapter/DLC was a shot in the foot. It killed any sort of character development or long term plot construction. Stories are shallow, they lack emotion and bonding to characters.

How could they fix this from now on? One thing that came to my mind was a possible return of the main questline. However, in order for it to work at this point, it should be unlocked only after completing all of the storylines from the maps that are somehow involved in the game's main plot (Three Banner's War/Planemeld) and/or with the game's main characters. All of the new content from now on would have it's regional storyline AND the main questline. This way they can keep future content both independent and meaningful/impactful in a main storyline. This is just one idea, I would like to hear more possible solutions.

It is a shame that we stay bound to seasonal short stories that have no deep implications in the world and it's characters. Especially in a TES game. Give us more bonding to your game, it surely has the potential. Let us see characters evolve, see throne successions, mourn losses... give us more emotion!

Cazador

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

TiaFrye

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

Necrotech_Master

TiaFrye wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

realistically the bigger problem is that zos does not frequently go back to update older content/zones (even adding 1-2 new quest NPCs that are NOT relatives of stuga would be a nice change of pace)

the original game storylines have so much "meat" is because that is what the game started out with, and with everything being level based you needed to advance through 16 zones (slightly more if you count the starter ones) to play through the main story fully

lately though it feels like some of these dlcs are only slightly bigger in both size and content than say khenarthis roost, betnik, or stros m'kai

TaSheen

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

2017 in July, so One Tam was up and running. I never played ESO in 'the old days". I have played all the single player games since 1994 with Arena's release; the only one I did not play for thousands of hours was Morrowind - because I'm not a fan of Dunmer at all, and in ESO, I'm not a fan of any of the Pact areas or their quests. I ran one of my mains through Cadwell's Silver and Gold, and that's the last time I'll be doing that.

Then again, I'm equally not fond of Altmer. My favorite races are Redguard, Breton, and Bosmer, followed closely by Imperials and Khajiit. I do have a few Dunmer and Altmer though they don't get a lot of playing time. I never make Orcs, Nords, or Argonians.

It took me a very long time to sort out combat in this game, and I'm still not very good at it - I'm older, my reflexes aren't that great any more, and the only connection I have is satellite - which comes with nearly-permanent 999+ ping.

I see. For a lot of us, who started to play pre One Tamriel or was inspired by community's love towards some characters and took base game route to get to know them better a bigger part of Morrowind, CWC and Summerset's greatness was in characters we know, love, have a bond with and wait for continuation of their story.

I guess "no strings attached" vibe year long stories give to some is good enough for newer player, it is targeted towards them by design and I understand why someone would not have time and patience for a deep dive in older content.
For some people like me keeping in touch with narrative trough characters we love is an important part. I speak for these people here.

Well.... I'm not now nor have I ever been interested in "recurring" characters in any game whether a single player series (like the Forgotten Realms games) or in an MMO like WoW and RIFT. I almost always dislike the NPCs in games - because I find them shallow and quite silly for the most part.

Cazador

TiaFrye wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

Fair point, and don't get me wrong, I do agree with what you have to say on year long content but I do however make an exception for Elsweyr. I think they nailed it the first time with year long content and everything since has been kind of hit and miss. We had a character many of us loved with abnur and a new one who felt like as much as the main character as we were with khamira. It kind of feels like they've tried to repeat this but haven't really been able to reach the same level since, or at least it hasn't for me.

Jaimeh

"TiaFrye wrote: »

Even worse - they seem to be not important anymore. Their return is irrelevant to the story. They are treated in the same line as the player is nowadays. Mercenary. Not a Vestige. It might work for some but even with it you give too little credit to your new players.

Your villains are not interesting either. I won't even start on "Disney's secret villain" situation. For that part to work you not only have to make us trust and like the person, you also have to make the betrayal reasonable.

This^ The returning characters seem to be chosen simply on whether they are popular or haven't appeared in a while, and not whether their return is relevant to the story. It's very incongruous and it's very bad for character development. The last time we we had a somewhat decent return, story-wise, was with Count Verandis.

I also agree about the villains, I haven't done the High Isle main quest yet, so I can't speak about that, but the final appearance of Mehrune's Dagon last year was completely anticlimactic and boring, and the rest of the antagonists up to that point were forgettable (not to mention that the story with the Ambitions was confusing and somewhat futile). The last interesting villain in my opinion was Rada Al-Saran, but was sadly not given a lot of screentime or attention, but at least he had complex motivations and a shared backstory with Count Verandis (unlike other returning characters who seem to be involved 'just because').

BahometZ

TiaFrye wrote: »

I fully realize that a single theme for a year is actually "better" in terms of cheapening development, it lets you re-use once created assets across multiple dlcs, you only need to chop one story in parts instead writing multiple and trying to intertwine them in meaningful way.

But it's bad for the game. They need to see that before it's too late.

That's it in a nutshell, isn't it, easier to produce, and benefiting from more incremental sales over the year. But to be fair, if they followed a similar approach with say Wrothgar and Thieves Guild DLC, then we may have got another zone from either of them (not sure what they'd be though tbh). We still get a lot of content these days, it's just less engaging. Then a steady trickle of motif farms in which people grind the same quests for a few weeks.

I am feeling pretty jaded with ESO these days, but I do sympathise with how hard it is to keep producing new content that is lore friendly within the timeframe of Tamriel that this game is confined to.

TiaFrye

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

realistically the bigger problem is that zos does not frequently go back to update older content/zones (even adding 1-2 new quest NPCs that are NOT relatives of stuga would be a nice change of pace)

the original game storylines have so much "meat" is because that is what the game started out with, and with everything being level based you needed to advance through 16 zones (slightly more if you count the starter ones) to play through the main story fully

lately though it feels like some of these dlcs are only slightly bigger in both size and content than say khenarthis roost, betnik, or stros m'kai

A few days ago I decided to replay the base game and amount of "prologues" in the first big city is let's say overwhelming.

As for "updating" if I remember correctly there was a controversy over changing redguard and orc armors and due to backleash after ZoS decided to never touch or change base game stuff ever again.

Agreed on the size.

Cazador wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

Fair point, and don't get me wrong, I do agree with what you have to say on year long content but I do however make an exception for Elsweyr. I think they nailed it the first time with year long content and everything since has been kind of hit and miss. We had a character many of us loved with abnur and a new one who felt like as much as the main character as we were with khamira. It kind of feels like they've tried to repeat this but haven't really been able to reach the same level since, or at least it hasn't for me.

I only grew warm towards Khamira before the end of the season because her actions during MQ felt very annoying to me. I was glad to eventually come at peace with the person she grew up to. Maybe it's just jealousy because as you pointed out she shifted the protagonist role on her even though you was a protagonist of Dragonhold along with not at all annoying dragon.

Tharn again like his colleagues from base game MQ might raise an eyebrow on people who will meet him in base game after Elsweyr because he grew a bit towards the end as well. His situation is not that dire like it with Verandis or Sai's Shehai and relationship with Lyris but it is still a small dent in his character arc if played in wrong order.

TiaFrye

Jaimeh wrote: »

"TiaFrye wrote: »

Even worse - they seem to be not important anymore. Their return is irrelevant to the story. They are treated in the same line as the player is nowadays. Mercenary. Not a Vestige. It might work for some but even with it you give too little credit to your new players.

Your villains are not interesting either. I won't even start on "Disney's secret villain" situation. For that part to work you not only have to make us trust and like the person, you also have to make the betrayal reasonable.

This^ The returning characters seem to be chosen simply on whether they are popular or haven't appeared in a while, and not whether their return is relevant to the story. It's very incongruous and it's very bad for character development. The last time we we had a somewhat decent return, story-wise, was with Count Verandis.

I also agree about the villains, I haven't done the High Isle main quest yet, so I can't speak about that, but the final appearance of Mehrune's Dagon last year was completely anticlimactic and boring, and the rest of the antagonists up to that point were forgettable (not to mention that the story with the Ambitions was confusing and somewhat futile). The last interesting villain in my opinion was Rada Al-Saran, but was sadly not given a lot of screentime or attention, but at least he had complex motivations and a shared backstory with Count Verandis (unlike other returning characters who seem to be involved 'just because').

Rada had his moment but devs did everything in their power to make players hate the guy while still verbally pointing at him as a complex villain. If Rada was more like Verandis, at least in how he communicates with player, I would take his side in a heartbeat. But devs made him take a part in Fennorian's torture, then be a complete arrogant and insufferable a-hole during one on one conversation and yes, murderous all the way.
So yeah, nice try, honorable mention, but he haven't had much competition on that front let's be honest.

Necrotech_Master

TiaFrye wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

realistically the bigger problem is that zos does not frequently go back to update older content/zones (even adding 1-2 new quest NPCs that are NOT relatives of stuga would be a nice change of pace)

the original game storylines have so much "meat" is because that is what the game started out with, and with everything being level based you needed to advance through 16 zones (slightly more if you count the starter ones) to play through the main story fully

lately though it feels like some of these dlcs are only slightly bigger in both size and content than say khenarthis roost, betnik, or stros m'kai

A few days ago I decided to replay the base game and amount of "prologues" in the first big city is let's say overwhelming.

As for "updating" if I remember correctly there was a controversy over changing redguard and orc armors and due to backleash after ZoS decided to never touch or change base game stuff ever again.

Agreed on the size.

i dont mean "change" like physically change things, merely new quests/enemy types appearing in the base game content zones

heck even a new delve or 2 would be nice as theres tons of potential locations for simple delves

stuff like that wouldnt alter anything that already exists, merely add new content to whats already there

Cazador

TiaFrye wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

realistically the bigger problem is that zos does not frequently go back to update older content/zones (even adding 1-2 new quest NPCs that are NOT relatives of stuga would be a nice change of pace)

the original game storylines have so much "meat" is because that is what the game started out with, and with everything being level based you needed to advance through 16 zones (slightly more if you count the starter ones) to play through the main story fully

lately though it feels like some of these dlcs are only slightly bigger in both size and content than say khenarthis roost, betnik, or stros m'kai

A few days ago I decided to replay the base game and amount of "prologues" in the first big city is let's say overwhelming.

As for "updating" if I remember correctly there was a controversy over changing redguard and orc armors and due to backleash after ZoS decided to never touch or change base game stuff ever again.

Agreed on the size.

Cazador wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

Fair point, and don't get me wrong, I do agree with what you have to say on year long content but I do however make an exception for Elsweyr. I think they nailed it the first time with year long content and everything since has been kind of hit and miss. We had a character many of us loved with abnur and a new one who felt like as much as the main character as we were with khamira. It kind of feels like they've tried to repeat this but haven't really been able to reach the same level since, or at least it hasn't for me.

I only grew warm towards Khamira before the end of the season because her actions during MQ felt very annoying to me. I was glad to eventually come at peace with the person she grew up to. Maybe it's just jealousy because as you pointed out she shifted the protagonist role on her even though you was a protagonist of Dragonhold along with not at all annoying dragon.

Tharn again like his colleagues from base game MQ might raise an eyebrow on people who will meet him in base game after Elsweyr because he grew a bit towards the end as well. His situation is not that dire like it with Verandis or Sai's Shehai and relationship with Lyris but it is still a small dent in his character arc if played in wrong order.

I didn't find khamira annoying at all myself. I actually really liked her being kind of being the protagonist because instead of you being the ultimate hero it of puts you into the role of the one guiding them to their destiny. It felt like a big change of pace from what we usually get with dlc, and just telling the story in a different way than usual really worked for me.

Huh, would you look at that, I'm getting kind of nostalgic. I might have to go through that year's story again sometime soon.

emilyhyoyeon

I'm a long time TES fan and started playing ESO in 2016 and completely agree

Wrothgar and Thieves Guild were in my opinion the best stories, better than the tri daedra story chain even. The whole thing this year was ''small political intrigue story'' but I don't think they went small enough, or at least it doesn't feel like it.

Not making stories so that they can be done in any order--including those within the same year--would be a huge help to making more compelling stories but I'm afraid they'll never do that.

TiaFrye

Cazador wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

realistically the bigger problem is that zos does not frequently go back to update older content/zones (even adding 1-2 new quest NPCs that are NOT relatives of stuga would be a nice change of pace)

the original game storylines have so much "meat" is because that is what the game started out with, and with everything being level based you needed to advance through 16 zones (slightly more if you count the starter ones) to play through the main story fully

lately though it feels like some of these dlcs are only slightly bigger in both size and content than say khenarthis roost, betnik, or stros m'kai

A few days ago I decided to replay the base game and amount of "prologues" in the first big city is let's say overwhelming.

As for "updating" if I remember correctly there was a controversy over changing redguard and orc armors and due to backleash after ZoS decided to never touch or change base game stuff ever again.

Agreed on the size.

Cazador wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm the opposite completely. I love the year long stories, and I was totally unimpressed with the Daedric War stuff. Vvardenfell is ugly Dunmeri, CWC is interesting to play around in, and Summerset is Disney-pretty, but the quests in all of that just left me cold.

Elsweyr, Blackwood, and High Isle fit me to a T, though I have no use at all for the Skyrim chapter. But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla, yes?

I hear ya. Do you mind me asking when did you start your journey with ESO? To better understand if the way you feel tied to implementing One Tamriel or not.

i played pre one tamriel, and that was a fantastic change to the game

being faction limited in pve sucked, having zones leveled sucked (because you could get xp or anything from places certain level below you, you effectively were locked into craglorn and the couple zones near your vet level, or cyro/IC or instanced content such as dungeons)

not to mention you could basically cheese group dungeons by scaling them down to lvl 10 (and technically normal trials too)

one tamriel was by far one of the best updates that needed to happen to the game

Exactly how I feel. I was (and still am) in a guild that has members across all alliances and it sucked that we couldn't group together to just explore. It's one of the best updates the game has seen in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with One Tamriel per se, just wanted to point out that players who were free to choose not to be involved with the base game storylines have less connection to its recurring characters and in turn feel less disturbance by the way stories are told in the game for the last four years.

Fair point, and don't get me wrong, I do agree with what you have to say on year long content but I do however make an exception for Elsweyr. I think they nailed it the first time with year long content and everything since has been kind of hit and miss. We had a character many of us loved with abnur and a new one who felt like as much as the main character as we were with khamira. It kind of feels like they've tried to repeat this but haven't really been able to reach the same level since, or at least it hasn't for me.

I only grew warm towards Khamira before the end of the season because her actions during MQ felt very annoying to me. I was glad to eventually come at peace with the person she grew up to. Maybe it's just jealousy because as you pointed out she shifted the protagonist role on her even though you was a protagonist of Dragonhold along with not at all annoying dragon.

Tharn again like his colleagues from base game MQ might raise an eyebrow on people who will meet him in base game after Elsweyr because he grew a bit towards the end as well. His situation is not that dire like it with Verandis or Sai's Shehai and relationship with Lyris but it is still a small dent in his character arc if played in wrong order.

I didn't find khamira annoying at all myself. I actually really liked her being kind of being the protagonist because instead of you being the ultimate hero it of puts you into the role of the one guiding them to their destiny. It felt like a big change of pace from what we usually get with dlc, and just telling the story in a different way than usual really worked for me.

Huh, would you look at that, I'm getting kind of nostalgic. I might have to go through that year's story again sometime soon.

Completely valid, I was just having vibes that she did a lot of stuff that didn't fired back on her but her people instead. I guess that's the point of trying to grew into a better ruler in the end. At the time I didn't view her as a kid who lost her family and was scarred by it for life, angry and impatient, but grown woman who does stuff on a whim, is a 'savior' and viewed as perfect literally by everyone but me.
Really glad I was able to dug deep eventually, thanks to season epilogue.

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'm a long time TES fan and started playing ESO in 2016 and completely agree

Wrothgar and Thieves Guild were in my opinion the best stories, better than the tri daedra story chain even. The whole thing this year was ''small political intrigue story'' but I don't think they went small enough, or at least it doesn't feel like it.

Not making stories so that they can be done in any order--including those within the same year--would be a huge help to making more compelling stories but I'm afraid they'll never do that.

When stuff goes boom it's never small...

I really liked the Guild as well, there were so many personal stories and the fact you unlock them with time (omg like in REAL LIFE WITH REAL PEOPLE) was absolutely fantastic, there were so many little daily quests I didn't mind this grind.

Jaimeh

TiaFrye wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

"TiaFrye wrote: »

Even worse - they seem to be not important anymore. Their return is irrelevant to the story. They are treated in the same line as the player is nowadays. Mercenary. Not a Vestige. It might work for some but even with it you give too little credit to your new players.

Your villains are not interesting either. I won't even start on "Disney's secret villain" situation. For that part to work you not only have to make us trust and like the person, you also have to make the betrayal reasonable.

This^ The returning characters seem to be chosen simply on whether they are popular or haven't appeared in a while, and not whether their return is relevant to the story. It's very incongruous and it's very bad for character development. The last time we we had a somewhat decent return, story-wise, was with Count Verandis.

I also agree about the villains, I haven't done the High Isle main quest yet, so I can't speak about that, but the final appearance of Mehrune's Dagon last year was completely anticlimactic and boring, and the rest of the antagonists up to that point were forgettable (not to mention that the story with the Ambitions was confusing and somewhat futile). The last interesting villain in my opinion was Rada Al-Saran, but was sadly not given a lot of screentime or attention, but at least he had complex motivations and a shared backstory with Count Verandis (unlike other returning characters who seem to be involved 'just because').

Rada had his moment but devs did everything in their power to make players hate the guy while still verbally pointing at him as a complex villain. If Rada was more like Verandis, at least in how he communicates with player, I would take his side in a heartbeat. But devs made him take a part in Fennorian's torture, then be a complete arrogant and insufferable a-hole during one on one conversation and yes, murderous all the way.
So yeah, nice try, honorable mention, but he haven't had much competition on that front let's be honest.

For me it was mostly his shared history with Verandis that made it interesting, and the fact that the Vestige was almost like a spectator in that interplay (even during the last fight). Regardless of competition, or lack thereof, he was still a well designed villain (with a lot of potential), and didn't feel caricature-ish, like other antagonists in the game.

boi_anachronism_

Even though I can from Skyrim and this is my first mmo I did mostly dungeons and trials. I finally played Morrowind through summerset and absolutely loved it. I actually got attached to the characters. I feel like they developed. I just haven't had the same experience with the later stories. They left me decidedly unfulfilled. The one character I really liked was in high isle died at the end of the public dungeon quest... Made me really sad, won't lie.

TiaFrye

Jaimeh wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

"TiaFrye wrote: »

Even worse - they seem to be not important anymore. Their return is irrelevant to the story. They are treated in the same line as the player is nowadays. Mercenary. Not a Vestige. It might work for some but even with it you give too little credit to your new players.

Your villains are not interesting either. I won't even start on "Disney's secret villain" situation. For that part to work you not only have to make us trust and like the person, you also have to make the betrayal reasonable.

This^ The returning characters seem to be chosen simply on whether they are popular or haven't appeared in a while, and not whether their return is relevant to the story. It's very incongruous and it's very bad for character development. The last time we we had a somewhat decent return, story-wise, was with Count Verandis.

I also agree about the villains, I haven't done the High Isle main quest yet, so I can't speak about that, but the final appearance of Mehrune's Dagon last year was completely anticlimactic and boring, and the rest of the antagonists up to that point were forgettable (not to mention that the story with the Ambitions was confusing and somewhat futile). The last interesting villain in my opinion was Rada Al-Saran, but was sadly not given a lot of screentime or attention, but at least he had complex motivations and a shared backstory with Count Verandis (unlike other returning characters who seem to be involved 'just because').

Rada had his moment but devs did everything in their power to make players hate the guy while still verbally pointing at him as a complex villain. If Rada was more like Verandis, at least in how he communicates with player, I would take his side in a heartbeat. But devs made him take a part in Fennorian's torture, then be a complete arrogant and insufferable a-hole during one on one conversation and yes, murderous all the way.
So yeah, nice try, honorable mention, but he haven't had much competition on that front let's be honest.

For me it was mostly his shared history with Verandis that made it interesting, and the fact that the Vestige was almost like a spectator in that interplay (even during the last fight). Regardless of competition, or lack thereof, he was still a well designed villain (with a lot of potential), and didn't feel caricature-ish, like other antagonists in the game.

Agreed. In Dark Heart I was okay-ish being a spectator (even though it's laughable that it wasn't mentioned once the Vestige is Bal's slayer by the person who hates the guy), not so much in Elsweyr, but last two years it's been rough.
People trying to play out a daedric prince, people trying to defeat a prince, champion of Alliances and prince slayer is in the town but no, we will be fine, let's pretend our best asset is noname mercenary and totally will not screw us senseless.

stevenyaub16_ESO

I agree, it's why people praise story of FF and GW2. You have a recurring cast that holds everything together.

ESO story is considered rather mid and rarely enters the conversation.

I think it's too late for ESO to change direction. 2 more expansions and the world would be pretty filled in by then.

TiaFrye

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

I agree, it's why people praise story of FF and GW2. You have a recurring cast that holds everything together.

ESO story is considered rather mid and rarely enters the conversation.

I think it's too late for ESO to change direction. 2 more expansions and the world would be pretty filled in by then.

They kind of promised us daedric planes in perspective and I know one specific plane an army of angry people will storm at the moment it will become available.

I try not to bring that up often though because game has narrative problems even without me wanting some characters back fully realising that they're being kept away exactly because creators care about them too much to release them into the current mess.

AcadianPaladin

As many different views here as there are players I imagine. I don't care for the frequent use of recurring characters just to reuse them. In their original roles I liked Eveli, Lyranth, Sai, Lyris, Count Ravenwatch, Raz. I didn't mind Jakarn, Darien and some others. In every single case of shoehorning them into a subsequent storyline, I've grown to dislike all of them.

It is hard to pin down what makes a character 'click' with my elf, but the short list is pretty much limited to Jaksik-Orrn, Queen Ayrenn, Valsirenn, Merric-at-Aswala and Velaste. She also rather bonded with the Main Quest Companions (less Tharn) but only during their original questing through taking care of Molag Bal.

What I would like to see in the way of continuity though is a couple key permanent characters who could send you into additional/new content. I think Velaste of the MG and Merric of the FG would be a couple ideal choices. You wouldn't quest with them but might get notes sometimes to go see them and they could brief you up on some new chapter crisis brewing. That could even be an unobtrusive way to manage prologue quests instead of filling the cities with irrelevant quest markers when you are trying to work a zone.

TiaFrye

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

As many different views here as there are players I imagine. I don't care for the frequent use of recurring characters just to reuse them. In their original roles I liked Eveli, Lyranth, Sai, Lyris, Count Ravenwatch, Raz. I didn't mind Jakarn, Darien and some others. In every single case of shoehorning them into a subsequent storyline, I've grown to dislike all of them.

It is hard to pin down what makes a character 'click' with my elf, but the short list is pretty much limited to Jaksik-Orrn, Queen Ayrenn, Valsirenn, Merric-at-Aswala and Velaste. She also rather bonded with the Main Quest Companions (less Tharn) but only during their original questing through taking care of Molag Bal.

What I would like to see in the way of continuity though is a couple key permanent characters who could send you into additional/new content. I think Velaste of the MG and Merric of the FG would be a couple ideal choices. You wouldn't quest with them but might get notes sometimes to go see them and they could brief you up on some new chapter crisis brewing. That could even be an unobtrusive way to manage prologue quests instead of filling the cities with irrelevant quest markers when you are trying to work a zone.

How did you felt about Valsirenn's return in Deadlands and lack of any meaningful dialogue about your previous encounter with her? What was your reaction on her not showing up to help your player character during epilogue of GoO storyline?