Year Long Stories are killing your characters \\ Jan19, Empty promise

TiaFrye

Carcamongus wrote: »

I like the idea of year-long adventures, but my problem is with their writing. Last year, we concluded Blackwood's story with one of the characters as a hero, only for that person to do a U-turn and become a villain in Deadlands. That change was poorly explained, especially considering the character's initial motivations. Legacy of the Bretons was a wasted opportunity to make a memorable story: the Ascendant Order could have been far more interesting if it was actually an organization fighting for some form of freedom, as opposed to a bunch of thugs playing the "help the oppressed" card; the Ascendant Lord was one of the most uninteresting villains in the game, which is a bloody waste. The idea of ending the war and replacing the Ruby Throne with something better could have been so exciting, but instead we get an order of brutes led by a shallow and power-hungry Darth Vader impersonator.

Basically it's what I said earlier: they should take their time. New characters will stay dead on arrival if you don't give them time to grow like people and grow on us. They have every opportunity in the world to make new characters but rushing forward is a bad strategy. Their best attempts yet were tied to linking new ones to the old ones to be their guide in a long way to become fan favourite.

Side note: AL who was marketed to us as some kind of rebel hero turning out to be the worst and most comically bad villain up to date makes me really sad about the people who were hyped up and bought his statue.

jle30303 wrote: »

Agreed. I would rather that the roles of Za'ji and Jimila in "High Isle" were reversed. Jimila, although also a former pirate turned privateer, has a much longer history of working officially with the Dominion - all the way from Khenarthi's Roost onwards - while Za'ji would have been better used in the cameo sidequest that Jimila had.

My take on it is: Za'ji and Caska's return is what they once said as "making use of our new characters" meaning a return of one of the few successful new characters looks good for the idea that one day most of the possible base game returns can be replaced with characters from DLC. Same goes for Quen in Firesong.

Mind you that while now with base game returnees you're invited to see their stories in the base game - DLC characters will do the same for their DLC zones. That means more sub/dlc sales if character performance was inviting enough.

VaranisArano

Carcamongus wrote: »

I like the idea of year-long adventures, but my problem is with their writing. Last year, we concluded Blackwood's story with one of the characters as a hero, only for that person to do a U-turn and become a villain in Deadlands. That change was poorly explained, especially considering the character's initial motivations. Legacy of the Bretons was a wasted opportunity to make a memorable story: the Ascendant Order could have been far more interesting if it was actually an organization fighting for some form of freedom, as opposed to a bunch of thugs playing the "help the oppressed" card; the Ascendant Lord was one of the most uninteresting villains in the game, which is a bloody waste. The idea of ending the war and replacing the Ruby Throne with something better could have been so exciting, but instead we get an order of brutes led by a shallow and power-hungry Darth Vader impersonator.

That character from Blackwood and the Deadlands character is a complete nod to a plot point from TES IV Oblivion. Its handled pretty subtly in the ESO, which is cool for me since I loved TES IV, but doesn't really work for players who aren't thinking in those terms or who are less familiar with TES IV.

During TES IV, Martin Septim makes a big deal out of the corrupting influence of the Mysterium Xarxes. He majorly freaks out when he realizes the PC has been casually carrying it around. Thanks to his magical and priestly training, he's able to shield himself from the worst effects, but even then he suffers nightmares from studying its secrets. Unshielded, barely trained Sombren was basically silly putty in the hands of such a corrupting artifact.

TiaFrye

VaranisArano wrote: »

Carcamongus wrote: »

I like the idea of year-long adventures, but my problem is with their writing. Last year, we concluded Blackwood's story with one of the characters as a hero, only for that person to do a U-turn and become a villain in Deadlands. That change was poorly explained, especially considering the character's initial motivations. Legacy of the Bretons was a wasted opportunity to make a memorable story: the Ascendant Order could have been far more interesting if it was actually an organization fighting for some form of freedom, as opposed to a bunch of thugs playing the "help the oppressed" card; the Ascendant Lord was one of the most uninteresting villains in the game, which is a bloody waste. The idea of ending the war and replacing the Ruby Throne with something better could have been so exciting, but instead we get an order of brutes led by a shallow and power-hungry Darth Vader impersonator.

That character from Blackwood and the Deadlands character is a complete nod to a plot point from TES IV Oblivion. Its handled pretty subtly in the ESO, which is cool for me since I loved TES IV, but doesn't really work for players who aren't thinking in those terms or who are less familiar with TES IV.

During TES IV, Martin Septim makes a big deal out of the corrupting influence of the Mysterium Xarxes. He majorly freaks out when he realizes the PC has been casually carrying it around. Thanks to his magical and priestly training, he's able to shield himself from the worst effects, but even then he suffers nightmares from studying its secrets. Unshielded, barely trained Sombren was basically silly putty in the hands of such a corrupting artifact.

Point is that Eveli despite carrying it around casualy for longer that this character suffers only from prophetic dreams once in a while. Some things are should be at least forshadowed. If Eveli snapped at player at least once and say terrified because of it asked us to carry the book before it changed hands again it would've been not that sudden change for other character to gone completely nuts.

ZoS were way better with this stuff before because each character were treated with care and attention most of the times.

TiaFrye

Arunei wrote: »

The year-long story formula really needs to change. A single year is not enough time to fully develop a meaningful plot with characters that have enough depth that we actually feel for them. Plots keep turning into carbon copies of each other (basically some variation of "save the world"), and far too often old characters are brought back for the sake of fanservice and/or nostalgia. But it just feels lazy when characters from past arcs are shoved into the spotlight, when it makes little sense for these same people to keep showing up in the Vestige's life. Why, exactly, did it have to be Eveli to get the Xarxes and for her to be the companion for Blackwood? Why did Zaji have to return, rather than a new character with the Dragonguard? Why did Sai or Lyris have to return for their respective Chapters and completely negate a choice made in the base game's main quest?

Beyond that, the "do any dlc in any order" thing prevents any actual character development, as others have mentioned. How absolutely confusing might it be to someone to get shoved into Elsweyr's story with Tharn and do all that, only to then find the actual base game main quest and him no longer remember you, but also be somewhat different in character? The game offers no real direction on even a vague order to doing DLC, so it's jarring to do things out of order and have any attachment you do get with characters get butchered as that development gets thrown out the window.

I remember how sad I was at the end of Summerset's main quest, especially after finding the book upstairs. Because that was handled well enough by Derian explaining that things that happened to him might not have happened to the player yet, if you hadn't done the base game's main quest first. That way if you DID wind up doing it afterward you'd know that at least Derian remembered you, even though YOU had no memory of him. They can't do that with every recurring character though, so they need to figure out something to address the problem.

That being said I'd love to see Fennorian again in the future, but only if his presence makes actual sense and lends well to the story.

The fact that Darien is basically alone with his memories about you in the middle of a strange place among other strangers when the order of progression is wrong makes it extra sad. Unfortunately yes, you can't pull an oblivion card each time something like that happens. The fact that in this story (big kudos for the devs) it's actually thought about that and in other situations that's left unclear up to the point of breaking previous content doesn't look good.

Northwold

I agree the year long stories appear to have killed the writing stone dead.

Two particular problems seem to arise:

1) If you're going to write year long two parters, they need to be stories that naturally lend themselves to two parts!!! As it is, we just have chapters with dull "and they all lived happily ever after but by the way the threat's still out there" endings. That then lurch back to life with the late year DLC.

I mean, yuck. If you're committed to two parters, MAKE US CARE. Throw your main character off a bridge to certain doom in part 1. Have the plot arc completely thrown off kilter for the part 1 denouement. Send a character on a mysterious journey that makes us give a damn what he might find in the next instalment.

2) Since chapters aren't free to ESO plus players but DLCs are, they can't actually do that because the end of year instalment has to be able to stand alone. Which really ought to have killed the "year of" format before it ever happened. You're trying to use a concept that fundamentally depends on linear storytelling -- two-part stories -- while making sure it's not linear. That's absurd and more or less guarantees that your stories can't have any tension in them.

Just ditch them. They've caused terrible writing and also, if you plain hate the story idea of a chapter (eg Greymoor -- I had rather put pins in my eyes than return to Skyrim), the advantage of the old way of doing things was that you knew something else would come next. That's how we got Hew's Bane, Murkmire, etc -- some people may not like them but they were original, allowed for tight storytelling, and they were *different*.

Now, if you see the theme of the year long story and don't dig it, well, you're just not going to bother with ESO for a year.

TiaFrye

Northwold wrote: »

I agree the year long stories appear to have killed the writing stone dead.

Two particular problems seem to arise:

1) If you're going to write year long two parters, they need to be stories that naturally lend themselves to two parts!!! As it is, we just have chapters with dull "and they all lived happily ever after but by the way the threat's still out there" endings. That then lurch back to life with the late year DLC.

I mean, yuck. If you're committed to two parters, MAKE US CARE. Throw your main character off a bridge to certain doom in part 1. Have the plot arc completely thrown off kilter for the part 1 denouement. Send a character on a mysterious journey that makes us give a damn what he might find in the next instalment.

2) Since chapters aren't free to ESO plus players but DLCs are, they can't actually do that because the end of year instalment has to be able to stand alone. Which really ought to have killed the "year of" format before it ever happened. You're trying to use a concept that fundamentally depends on linear storytelling -- two-part stories -- while making sure it's not linear. That's absurd and more or less guarantees that your stories can't have any tension in them.

Just ditch them. They've caused terrible writing and also, if you plain hate the story idea of a chapter (eg Greymoor -- I had rather put pins in my eyes than return to Skyrim), the advantage of the old way of doing things was that you knew something else would come next. That's how we got Hew's Bane, Murkmire, etc -- some people may not like them but they were original, allowed for tight storytelling, and they were *different*.

Now, if you see the theme of the year long story and don't dig it, well, you're just not going to bother with ESO for a year.

I remember the times when people got excited and speculated where we will be going next, now that part is mostly gone. And honestly I loved the variety.

kind_hero

I have been playing since the beta, and played all DLCs in order. The 1st thing I do when a new chapter starts, is to do the quests. I like doing the sidequests to have all the NPCs at the final gathering. But despite my love of Elder Scrolls, the past few chapters are shallow. The main quest is usually not really interesting, which is quite unusual for a fantasy game where you can imagine so many things.

To me, the Greymoor, Blackwood and now Firesong/High Isle main quests were "Scooby Doo" plots. This type of good guy who is actually the big villain twist is so poor for a fantasy game. Unfortunately ESO is plagued with this trope. There are plenty of zone quests where the elder of the village or a friendly NPC is actually a daedric cultist or some villain. Yeah, the trope works from time to time, but please...

Regarding characters... I think the worst thing is that a player can do these stories, including the year long two parter, in any order. Better have an instant level up and free raid gear for new players than this. Because it kills any feeling of progression, new players are confused of what to do next.

If you are a new player, you will be overwhelmed with prologue NPCs, and you will get an annoying main quest NPC pop-up without understanding which quest to do first or why. Total freedom dillutes the meaning of choice, you can do anything, but you can also do nothing and still play the game. Which doesn't help the community. I remember from 16 years ago when I was playing WoW... players had to go through the starter zones, spend a lot of time in certain areas, this way you made friends and played together for years. ESO doesn't guide you at all, you can play solo, which is fine, but also it allows it too easy, to miss a lot of the perks of a MMO.

I am tired of villains that are 101% evil for no reason other than more power or take over the world, and quest stages where you have some balcony scene when the player has no agency, and has to be told how evil is the big villain (killing innocents, take over the world/revenge speeches). It doesn't have to be something like saving the world. I really liked the idea behind the main quest, how the Vestige has to save their soul at first, and in order to achieve that, they agree to do different things, a typical RPG situation.

After so many years of playing, I am mostly decided that if the devs continue with another shallow chapter like this one, I'll move to other games. It's not the quality, but the resistance to progress and change that drives me away.

Treselegant

kind_hero wrote: »

After so many years of playing, I am mostly decided that if the devs continue with another shallow chapter like this one, I'll move to other games. It's not the quality, but the resistance to progress and change that drives me away.

This is my feeling. I continue to play but it's 'in spite' of the decisions being made for this game. The stories I have created for my characters, my interest in the Elder Scrolls world, that keeps me logged in not what is being currently offered. Before High Isle released I had some hope that there would be something in the year long story that would interest me but it's all so rushed and forgettable. If another good Bethesda-type RPG launched today you would not see me for the dust.

TiaFrye

Treselegant wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

After so many years of playing, I am mostly decided that if the devs continue with another shallow chapter like this one, I'll move to other games. It's not the quality, but the resistance to progress and change that drives me away.

This is my feeling. I continue to play but it's 'in spite' of the decisions being made for this game. The stories I have created for my characters, my interest in the Elder Scrolls world, that keeps me logged in not what is being currently offered. Before High Isle released I had some hope that there would be something in the year long story that would interest me but it's all so rushed and forgettable. If another good Bethesda-type RPG launched today you would not see me for the dust.

I would've probably cancelled my sub already at this point if it wasn't pain in the ass to get it back for me.

Even the fact that for the last half a year Crown damn it Store is plagued by old items put up for sale again and again I'm starting to feel that as an older player, who started durin beta as well, I'm no longer appreciated and no longer have a voice because I already bought all the stuff and the company can't get any more money from me. So they instead turned to new players on 180° because they can buy everything now.

me_ming

TiaFrye wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

After so many years of playing, I am mostly decided that if the devs continue with another shallow chapter like this one, I'll move to other games. It's not the quality, but the resistance to progress and change that drives me away.

This is my feeling. I continue to play but it's 'in spite' of the decisions being made for this game. The stories I have created for my characters, my interest in the Elder Scrolls world, that keeps me logged in not what is being currently offered. Before High Isle released I had some hope that there would be something in the year long story that would interest me but it's all so rushed and forgettable. If another good Bethesda-type RPG launched today you would not see me for the dust.

I would've probably cancelled my sub already at this point if it wasn't pain in the ass to get it back for me.

Even the fact that for the last half a year Crown damn it Store is plagued by old items put up for sale again and again I'm starting to feel that as an older player, who started durin beta as well, I'm no longer appreciated and no longer have a voice because I already bought all the stuff and the company can't get any more money from me. So they instead turned to new players on 180° because they can buy everything now.

I feel the same. It feels like they are more concerned on getting new players in so that they can brag that they have over 2 Million new accounts. I know they were acquired by Microsoft... it's just sad that ZoS and the devs are the ones that are destroying the game they have really build from the ground up. I would say that the greatest years of this game was During Morrowind to the release of the Elsweyr chapters. Those were the years that they were listening more to their player base across all game styles.

TiaFrye

me_ming wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

After so many years of playing, I am mostly decided that if the devs continue with another shallow chapter like this one, I'll move to other games. It's not the quality, but the resistance to progress and change that drives me away.

This is my feeling. I continue to play but it's 'in spite' of the decisions being made for this game. The stories I have created for my characters, my interest in the Elder Scrolls world, that keeps me logged in not what is being currently offered. Before High Isle released I had some hope that there would be something in the year long story that would interest me but it's all so rushed and forgettable. If another good Bethesda-type RPG launched today you would not see me for the dust.

I would've probably cancelled my sub already at this point if it wasn't pain in the ass to get it back for me.

Even the fact that for the last half a year Crown damn it Store is plagued by old items put up for sale again and again I'm starting to feel that as an older player, who started durin beta as well, I'm no longer appreciated and no longer have a voice because I already bought all the stuff and the company can't get any more money from me. So they instead turned to new players on 180° because they can buy everything now.

I feel the same. It feels like they are more concerned on getting new players in so that they can brag that they have over 2 Million new accounts. I know they were acquired by Microsoft... it's just sad that ZoS and the devs are the ones that are destroying the game they have really build from the ground up. I would say that the greatest years of this game was During Morrowind to the release of the Elsweyr chapters. Those were the years that they were listening more to their player base across all game styles.

Most of the decisions are made by higher-ups and marketing, devs are just doing what they're told and paid for, so I wouldn't throw them under the bus for the current situation.
Some of them are doing their best where they could, but it's hard to work with a rock with bare hands when company doesn't give you tools to do so or better material to start with.

kind_hero

TiaFrye wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

After so many years of playing, I am mostly decided that if the devs continue with another shallow chapter like this one, I'll move to other games. It's not the quality, but the resistance to progress and change that drives me away.

This is my feeling. I continue to play but it's 'in spite' of the decisions being made for this game. The stories I have created for my characters, my interest in the Elder Scrolls world, that keeps me logged in not what is being currently offered. Before High Isle released I had some hope that there would be something in the year long story that would interest me but it's all so rushed and forgettable. If another good Bethesda-type RPG launched today you would not see me for the dust.

I would've probably cancelled my sub already at this point if it wasn't pain in the ass to get it back for me.

Even the fact that for the last half a year Crown damn it Store is plagued by old items put up for sale again and again I'm starting to feel that as an older player, who started durin beta as well, I'm no longer appreciated and no longer have a voice because I already bought all the stuff and the company can't get any more money from me. So they instead turned to new players on 180° because they can buy everything now.

I feel the same. It feels like they are more concerned on getting new players in so that they can brag that they have over 2 Million new accounts. I know they were acquired by Microsoft... it's just sad that ZoS and the devs are the ones that are destroying the game they have really build from the ground up. I would say that the greatest years of this game was During Morrowind to the release of the Elsweyr chapters. Those were the years that they were listening more to their player base across all game styles.

Most of the decisions are made by higher-ups and marketing, devs are just doing what they're told and paid for, so I wouldn't throw them under the bus for the current situation.
Some of them are doing their best where they could, but it's hard to work with a rock with bare hands when company doesn't give you tools to do so or better material to start with.

Not sure about that... in the sense that higher-ups or marketing don't instruct the devs to write weak stories or to create forgettable characters. I am sure that anyone in the upper management wants the best features on the market to attract the most attention, awards, players and so on.

There are many enjoyable quests, the zones are usually very beautiful, so there is quality, they have the people to do it. But I don't understand why they have to come up with the same plot and plot devices. Last year, we had to get the ambitions, keys, whatnot, this year, the same with the 3 seeds, we get a quest companion for a time now, like I can't figure out anything by myself, I always need a NPC to tell me where I am, what to do.

This year we had druid Laurel. But only when I returned to High Isle, for the conclusion, I realized there is a copy of druid Laurel, druid Ryvana, of which I forgot. I thought she was the same druid from High Isle, from summer. I mean, they even have the same haircut! Why do two characters that are so similar?

TiaFrye

kind_hero wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

After so many years of playing, I am mostly decided that if the devs continue with another shallow chapter like this one, I'll move to other games. It's not the quality, but the resistance to progress and change that drives me away.

This is my feeling. I continue to play but it's 'in spite' of the decisions being made for this game. The stories I have created for my characters, my interest in the Elder Scrolls world, that keeps me logged in not what is being currently offered. Before High Isle released I had some hope that there would be something in the year long story that would interest me but it's all so rushed and forgettable. If another good Bethesda-type RPG launched today you would not see me for the dust.

I would've probably cancelled my sub already at this point if it wasn't pain in the ass to get it back for me.

Even the fact that for the last half a year Crown damn it Store is plagued by old items put up for sale again and again I'm starting to feel that as an older player, who started durin beta as well, I'm no longer appreciated and no longer have a voice because I already bought all the stuff and the company can't get any more money from me. So they instead turned to new players on 180° because they can buy everything now.

I feel the same. It feels like they are more concerned on getting new players in so that they can brag that they have over 2 Million new accounts. I know they were acquired by Microsoft... it's just sad that ZoS and the devs are the ones that are destroying the game they have really build from the ground up. I would say that the greatest years of this game was During Morrowind to the release of the Elsweyr chapters. Those were the years that they were listening more to their player base across all game styles.

Most of the decisions are made by higher-ups and marketing, devs are just doing what they're told and paid for, so I wouldn't throw them under the bus for the current situation.
Some of them are doing their best where they could, but it's hard to work with a rock with bare hands when company doesn't give you tools to do so or better material to start with.

Not sure about that... in the sense that higher-ups or marketing don't instruct the devs to write weak stories or to create forgettable characters. I am sure that anyone in the upper management wants the best features on the market to attract the most attention, awards, players and so on.

There are many enjoyable quests, the zones are usually very beautiful, so there is quality, they have the people to do it. But I don't understand why they have to come up with the same plot and plot devices. Last year, we had to get the ambitions, keys, whatnot, this year, the same with the 3 seeds, we get a quest companion for a time now, like I can't figure out anything by myself, I always need a NPC to tell me where I am, what to do.

This year we had druid Laurel. But only when I returned to High Isle, for the conclusion, I realized there is a copy of druid Laurel, druid Ryvana, of which I forgot. I thought she was the same druid from High Isle, from summer. I mean, they even have the same haircut! Why do two characters that are so similar?

Some things might be the cause of "bad writing" of say rookie but the fact that many things repeat each other in case of "there must be this, this and that" is a clear indication that there's a formula forced upon some stuff to keep things "working" in desired manner.

Elsweyr and Greymoor were different from later seasons because people pointed at ugly corners and formula was obviously changed like in the part where returnees play no bigger roles no more.

There's also some characters who are kept aside for a quite long time and from personal experience their authors care about them too much so probably returning them under current conditions is unacceptable for them.

PrimusTiberius

I disagree, I enjoy the year long story and look forward to many more of these.

SammyKhajit

When the LOTR Rings of Power was on, this one enjoyed guessing who is Sauron (the Stranger! The hobbits! The tree on the right!).

With High Isle, initially it was exciting to have this mysterious Ascendant Lord figure, but then, Sammy just couldn’t get into it - probably because HI and Firesong seem so disconnected from one another. There was no cliff hanger, no NPCs who is at the throes of death, no emotional attachment for this one to discover who is the evil baddie.

ZOS seems to have decided to play it safe with a certain formula, but after a few years of repetition, it does need a complete overhaul.

Treselegant

TiaFrye wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

After so many years of playing, I am mostly decided that if the devs continue with another shallow chapter like this one, I'll move to other games. It's not the quality, but the resistance to progress and change that drives me away.

This is my feeling. I continue to play but it's 'in spite' of the decisions being made for this game. The stories I have created for my characters, my interest in the Elder Scrolls world, that keeps me logged in not what is being currently offered. Before High Isle released I had some hope that there would be something in the year long story that would interest me but it's all so rushed and forgettable. If another good Bethesda-type RPG launched today you would not see me for the dust.

I would've probably cancelled my sub already at this point if it wasn't pain in the ass to get it back for me.

Even the fact that for the last half a year Crown damn it Store is plagued by old items put up for sale again and again I'm starting to feel that as an older player, who started durin beta as well, I'm no longer appreciated and no longer have a voice because I already bought all the stuff and the company can't get any more money from me. So they instead turned to new players on 180° because they can buy everything now.

I feel the same. It feels like they are more concerned on getting new players in so that they can brag that they have over 2 Million new accounts. I know they were acquired by Microsoft... it's just sad that ZoS and the devs are the ones that are destroying the game they have really build from the ground up. I would say that the greatest years of this game was During Morrowind to the release of the Elsweyr chapters. Those were the years that they were listening more to their player base across all game styles.

Most of the decisions are made by higher-ups and marketing, devs are just doing what they're told and paid for, so I wouldn't throw them under the bus for the current situation.
Some of them are doing their best where they could, but it's hard to work with a rock with bare hands when company doesn't give you tools to do so or better material to start with.

Not sure about that... in the sense that higher-ups or marketing don't instruct the devs to write weak stories or to create forgettable characters. I am sure that anyone in the upper management wants the best features on the market to attract the most attention, awards, players and so on.

There are many enjoyable quests, the zones are usually very beautiful, so there is quality, they have the people to do it. But I don't understand why they have to come up with the same plot and plot devices. Last year, we had to get the ambitions, keys, whatnot, this year, the same with the 3 seeds, we get a quest companion for a time now, like I can't figure out anything by myself, I always need a NPC to tell me where I am, what to do.

This year we had druid Laurel. But only when I returned to High Isle, for the conclusion, I realized there is a copy of druid Laurel, druid Ryvana, of which I forgot. I thought she was the same druid from High Isle, from summer. I mean, they even have the same haircut! Why do two characters that are so similar?

Some things might be the cause of "bad writing" of say rookie but the fact that many things repeat each other in case of "there must be this, this and that" is a clear indication that there's a formula forced upon some stuff to keep things "working" in desired manner.

Elsweyr and Greymoor were different from later seasons because people pointed at ugly corners and formula was obviously changed like in the part where returnees play no bigger roles no more.

There's also some characters who are kept aside for a quite long time and from personal experience their authors care about them too much so probably returning them under current conditions is unacceptable for them.

Agreed. There appears to be 'formula' at work in these recent expansions. The stories have these well worn beats navigated with no real resistence by characters other than the player then it is all tied up very neatly at a 'party' where the same characters declare you the world's most amazing hero! "Look at you honoured patron! Aren't you simply amazing navigating the simple task of pressing the 'next' button on the dialogue screen!" It asks so very little of you.

There comes across this feeling that the player has to be inconvienced as little as possible. Not moved emotionally or taxed too mentally. This isn't the way to create and sustain a healthy interest in the game's world.

TiaFrye

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

I disagree, I enjoy the year long story and look forward to many more of these.

If the studio can find a way of not only appeasing new or post One Tamriel players in year long stories we'll both have what we want.

SammyKhajit wrote: »

When the LOTR Rings of Power was on, this one enjoyed guessing who is Sauron (the Stranger! The hobbits! The tree on the right!).

With High Isle, initially it was exciting to have this mysterious Ascendant Lord figure, but then, Sammy just couldn’t get into it - probably because HI and Firesong seem so disconnected from one another. There was no cliff hanger, no NPCs who is at the throes of death, no emotional attachment for this one to discover who is the evil baddie.

ZOS seems to have decided to play it safe with a certain formula, but after a few years of repetition, it does need a complete overhaul.

This is quite appropriate comparison considering Amazon's writers needed to change existing canon just to make this twist work, esp for new audience. And by that they've angered a lot of source material fans.
I can't say I am angered by how I am as long time player being dismissed all over, but I am disappointed.

Treselegant wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

After so many years of playing, I am mostly decided that if the devs continue with another shallow chapter like this one, I'll move to other games. It's not the quality, but the resistance to progress and change that drives me away.

This is my feeling. I continue to play but it's 'in spite' of the decisions being made for this game. The stories I have created for my characters, my interest in the Elder Scrolls world, that keeps me logged in not what is being currently offered. Before High Isle released I had some hope that there would be something in the year long story that would interest me but it's all so rushed and forgettable. If another good Bethesda-type RPG launched today you would not see me for the dust.

I would've probably cancelled my sub already at this point if it wasn't pain in the ass to get it back for me.

Even the fact that for the last half a year Crown damn it Store is plagued by old items put up for sale again and again I'm starting to feel that as an older player, who started durin beta as well, I'm no longer appreciated and no longer have a voice because I already bought all the stuff and the company can't get any more money from me. So they instead turned to new players on 180° because they can buy everything now.

I feel the same. It feels like they are more concerned on getting new players in so that they can brag that they have over 2 Million new accounts. I know they were acquired by Microsoft... it's just sad that ZoS and the devs are the ones that are destroying the game they have really build from the ground up. I would say that the greatest years of this game was During Morrowind to the release of the Elsweyr chapters. Those were the years that they were listening more to their player base across all game styles.

Most of the decisions are made by higher-ups and marketing, devs are just doing what they're told and paid for, so I wouldn't throw them under the bus for the current situation.
Some of them are doing their best where they could, but it's hard to work with a rock with bare hands when company doesn't give you tools to do so or better material to start with.

Not sure about that... in the sense that higher-ups or marketing don't instruct the devs to write weak stories or to create forgettable characters. I am sure that anyone in the upper management wants the best features on the market to attract the most attention, awards, players and so on.

There are many enjoyable quests, the zones are usually very beautiful, so there is quality, they have the people to do it. But I don't understand why they have to come up with the same plot and plot devices. Last year, we had to get the ambitions, keys, whatnot, this year, the same with the 3 seeds, we get a quest companion for a time now, like I can't figure out anything by myself, I always need a NPC to tell me where I am, what to do.

This year we had druid Laurel. But only when I returned to High Isle, for the conclusion, I realized there is a copy of druid Laurel, druid Ryvana, of which I forgot. I thought she was the same druid from High Isle, from summer. I mean, they even have the same haircut! Why do two characters that are so similar?

Some things might be the cause of "bad writing" of say rookie but the fact that many things repeat each other in case of "there must be this, this and that" is a clear indication that there's a formula forced upon some stuff to keep things "working" in desired manner.

Elsweyr and Greymoor were different from later seasons because people pointed at ugly corners and formula was obviously changed like in the part where returnees play no bigger roles no more.

There's also some characters who are kept aside for a quite long time and from personal experience their authors care about them too much so probably returning them under current conditions is unacceptable for them.

Agreed. There appears to be 'formula' at work in these recent expansions. The stories have these well worn beats navigated with no real resistence by characters other than the player then it is all tied up very neatly at a 'party' where the same characters declare you the world's most amazing hero! "Look at you honoured patron! Aren't you simply amazing navigating the simple task of pressing the 'next' button on the dialogue screen!" It asks so very little of you.

There comes across this feeling that the player has to be inconvienced as little as possible. Not moved emotionally or taxed too mentally. This isn't the way to create and sustain a healthy interest in the game's world.

There should be content for both 2-hour-after-work players and someone who is deep into it without sacrificing anybody's joy but it seems we're in the opposition as of late. Been thrown a bone of two but no fancy fillet mignon.

Faulgor

I kinda disagree in that I don't want more returning characters - in fact, I'd be very happy if next year's content only had original characters.
However, I can see your point that the year-long stories don't make good use of their characters. But I think it's because a) the cast is a bit big in general and b), some are introduced in dungeons or the Q4 DLC where they are either obscured or the story continuity feels broken by their presence.

For instance, Druid Laurel this year first showed up in one of the Q3 dungeons, followed by the prologue quest and then the Firesong storyline. Why introduce us to such an important character halfway along the story, in content that - as has been pointed out repeatedly - is ill-suited to stories in general, and looks virtually identical to a character from the first half of the year, Druid Ryvana (seriously, anyone else got confused? they even have the same hairstyle).

I really think the story has to be brushed up in its delivery. But I don't think that's down to the year-long-story model itself.
In theory, having more content for a longer story should be exactly what we want, but the current execution just doesn't work.

a) Important story beats in dungeons are a terrible idea.
b) Focusing on an overarching story often leaves the actual zone with its culture and people underdeveloped (Q4 DLC is much better in this regard, as it has one local and one "global" story).
c) Chapter stories feel unsatisfying because we have to wait so long for a conclusion - something the Daedric War arc did much better because a continuation of the story wasn't obvious or necessary.
d) Ending on a small DLC also feels counter-intuitive. Why can't we end the story on the chapter? That would make the purchase feel much more rewarding.

Overall, I think the Daedric War arc was more enjoyable because the continuation wasn't too on-the-nose. It felt like there was something more going on in the world itself, without being restricted to a calendar year. We wondered how and when things were going to end, whereas now, every year we know they are going to end in Q4 with a DLC.
It makes the game feel more like a formulaic content mill rather than an interactive world.

TiaFrye

Faulgor wrote: »

I kinda disagree in that I don't want more returning characters - in fact, I'd be very happy if next year's content only had original characters.
However, I can see your point that the year-long stories don't make good use of their characters. But I think it's because a) the cast is a bit big in general and b), some are introduced in dungeons or the Q4 DLC where they are either obscured or the story continuity feels broken by their presence.

For instance, Druid Laurel this year first showed up in one of the Q3 dungeons, followed by the prologue quest and then the Firesong storyline. Why introduce us to such an important character halfway along the story, in content that - as has been pointed out repeatedly - is ill-suited to stories in general, and looks virtually identical to a character from the first half of the year, Druid Ryvana (seriously, anyone else got confused? they even have the same hairstyle).

I really think the story has to be brushed up in its delivery. But I don't think that's down to the year-long-story model itself.
In theory, having more content for a longer story should be exactly what we want, but the current execution just doesn't work.

a) Important story beats in dungeons are a terrible idea.
b) Focusing on an overarching story often leaves the actual zone with its culture and people underdeveloped (Q4 DLC is much better in this regard, as it has one local and one "global" story).
c) Chapter stories feel unsatisfying because we have to wait so long for a conclusion - something the Daedric War arc did much better because a continuation of the story wasn't obvious or necessary.
d) Ending on a small DLC also feels counter-intuitive. Why can't we end the story on the chapter? That would make the purchase feel much more rewarding.

Overall, I think the Daedric War arc was more enjoyable because the continuation wasn't too on-the-nose. It felt like there was something more going on in the world itself, without being restricted to a calendar year. We wondered how and when things were going to end, whereas now, every year we know they are going to end in Q4 with a DLC.
It makes the game feel more like a formulaic content mill rather than an interactive world.

Well, I don't really push them to return a specific characters, just pointing out that if they do they should do so considering what a character already been trough at least when speaking to older player, not being erased to fit universally or broken for new players who messed the order up.

By all means, in fact new characters is what they want to do more BUT my point was that because of the current model they have no meaningful progression and often because of that and other stuff made to babysit a new player - unlikable.
Making one a returnees' protégé is just one if the ways if they still want to keep "year long stories". But overall dumping YLS for Arcs will be much better solution.

Dr_Con

it took more brain power to figure out who the ascendant mage was than it was to figure out who the ascendant lord was.

hopefully ZOS learns to stay away from the whole "resolving the 3 banner war" angle, the tension needs to escalate.

Supreme_Atromancer

May contain spoilers. Please don't read if you are concerned.

Orsinium had some fantastic characters. Kurog's arc remains one of the most compelling and thought-provoking for me. His strengths and flaws were as believable as they were tragic. Through him, I felt like I understood Orsinium's story, and learned something about the orcs. Who wrote this? I love you. I want more of this.

Iceheart was really cool, too. The preamble to the fight in the depths of Frostbreak demonstrated a keen and hard-hitting insight into Kurog- taunting but true. All in one or two lines. It made me *think*. I'd loved to have seen more of Iceheart, and learned MUCH more about the Winterborn's perspective. And while I think it would have been soooo much more fulfilling and explorable if that was an option, the point I want to make here is that a character that would make me feel like that is well-written, regardless of the quantity of their screen time.

VaranisArano wrote:

To some degree, I think the writers get a bad rap. They can still turn out fan favorites, like Fennorian and Arox. They can still write recurring characters that are allowed to have character growth, like Count Verandis and Lyranth Foolkiller. They even do a good job with new characters who we don't necessarily lift up to favorite status, but still are interesting, like Khamira or the four Ambitions.

I do think that there are problems with both the format and the quality of the more recent writing, but you make some great counterpoints.

I agree with most here that the year long format really impacts the pacing, but also I feel like the writing really feels rushed and overly-constrained.

TiaFrye

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

May contain spoilers. Please don't read if you are concerned.

Orsinium had some fantastic characters. Kurog's arc remains one of the most compelling and thought-provoking for me. His strengths and flaws were as believable as they were tragic. Through him, I felt like I understood Orsinium's story, and learned something about the orcs. Who wrote this? I love you. I want more of this.

Iceheart was really cool, too. The preamble to the fight in the depths of Frostbreak demonstrated a keen and hard-hitting insight into Kurog- taunting but true. All in one or two lines. It made me *think*. I'd loved to have seen more of Iceheart, and learned MUCH more about the Winterborn's perspective. And while I think it would have been soooo much more fulfilling and explorable if that was an option, the point I want to make here is that a character that would make me feel like that is well-written, regardless of the quantity of their screen time.

VaranisArano wrote:

To some degree, I think the writers get a bad rap. They can still turn out fan favorites, like Fennorian and Arox. They can still write recurring characters that are allowed to have character growth, like Count Verandis and Lyranth Foolkiller. They even do a good job with new characters who we don't necessarily lift up to favorite status, but still are interesting, like Khamira or the four Ambitions.

I do think that there are problems with both the format and the quality of the more recent writing, but you make some great counterpoints.

I agree with most here that the year long format really impacts the pacing, but also I feel like the writing really feels rushed and overly-constrained.

Orsinium MQ as well as Rivenspire, Summerset and Balmora part of Morrowind were made by the same people and I believe since Summerset, because both were promoted to the leads (and that mostly is about watching over other people), they weren't able to return to working in duo on any MQs as they did before. Maybe occasionally for their characters.

Again, YLS seem too scripted and too rushed, no wonder honestly anyone has problems with this model. It's like spelling 'happiness' with you only having an 'a' and two 's'es.

Rontabs77

it's all because of the story in the following link:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/55715

Know more about Mr. Lawrence Schick:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Schick

TiaFrye

Rontabs77 wrote: »

it's all because of the story in the following link:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/55715

Know more about Mr. Lawrence Schick:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Schick

To quote Lawrence, this thread is how "we feel" now about our favourite characters.

Naryu, aside from cameo during an even, hasn't been in the game since Morrowind. Why? Because last part of her story had HUGE consequences on Summerset and you can't bring her back for good without letting people ask the burning question. Hell, even her attitude towards player must change at least slightly because with or without shared blame, what we did to a person she cared about, crazy or no, should provide some reaction.
Same with Darien being kept in Meridia's realm. You can't bring him back without making story a complex continuation of his earlier stories. With current model it's nearly impossible unless company will greenlight Meridia as the next big bad somewhere down the line ang release Colored Rooms as Q4 DLC, because those as Markarth already showed us are good for more self contained stories. Will it have the same problems as Markarth remains to be seen but it's clear that these characters are held back by their creators because without their complexity their return won't work.

Yet we have Razum-Dar, who had since Summerset two more appearances just because. His Elsweyr quest grossed me out a bit, especially his comment on Naryu, and I've yet to complete his Firesong quest BUT I have the rising suspicion that his return not only tied to the fact that he's 'favorite' but also the fact that new loremaster is one of his authors.

I liked Leamon as loremaster and I wouldn't say that everything was gone to hell immediately after Lawrence left, because even with big bumps I enjoyed both Dark Heart and GoO as a whole. DH more because of some characters. New-new loremaster's start was rough and the fact he immediately started to apologize for his previous writing threw me off big time. But again loremasters doesn't write MQs. And I have no idea who wrote who this year aside from Wrothgar-Summer-Riven designer taking a part in storyline for new card game and oh boy it shows.

SammyKhajit

@TiaFrye This one quite enjoyed Rings of Power. Yes, it’s an interpretation of Tolkien and the show runners, writers and everyone did a brilliant job. This one is a Tolkien fan and regularly revisits the novels but also the histories of Middle Earth series. What felt compelling, is that it’s very clear that the show runners are also clearly Tolkien fans and pays close attention to the details. So in that sense, the interpretation felt sincere and insightful.

And of course, who can resist hot Sauron

Ahem, but getting back to the theme of this thread - there really has to be some critical reflection from the ZOS team on the identity of ESO - it’s been unravelling a bit for the past few years in which we are treated to what is trendy as opposed to what is the DNA of ESO, what draws in the fans. For sure, there are Druid lores etc in this year’s instalment, but it felt kind of tacked on, there was a lot of telling, as opposed to showing.

And although this one thought Frri’s design, voice acting and character are all very cool conceptually, if Frri has to say one more line of “Roots, sundered and exposed to the sun, bla bla bla”, this one will be tempted to pull out an axe.

TiaFrye

SammyKhajit wrote: »

@TiaFrye This one quite enjoyed Rings of Power. Yes, it’s an interpretation of Tolkien and the show runners, writers and everyone did a brilliant job. This one is a Tolkien fan and regularly revisits the novels but also the histories of Middle Earth series. What felt compelling, is that it’s very clear that the show runners are also clearly Tolkien fans and pays close attention to the details. So in that sense, the interpretation felt sincere and insightful.

And of course, who can resist hot Sauron

Ahem, but getting back to the theme of this thread - there really has to be some critical reflection from the ZOS team on the identity of ESO - it’s been unravelling a bit for the past few years in which we are treated to what is trendy as opposed to what is the DNA of ESO, what draws in the fans. For sure, there are Druid lores etc in this year’s instalment, but it felt kind of tacked on, there was a lot of telling, as opposed to showing.

And although this one thought Frri’s design, voice acting and character are all very cool conceptually, if Frri has to say one more line of “Roots, sundered and exposed to the sun, bla bla bla”, this one will be tempted to pull out an axe.

Not judging btw, just found mention and its situation interesting in connection to our current theme! I'm a casual "fan", only seen the movies, but I was watching from sidelines how Rings' situation was discussed. Personally I was watching HotD.

Agreed on trendy vs DNA stuff, and again - trendy brings money and it seems to be the reason behind almost everything that makes narrative worse.

I liked Frri, but as you said speech patterns were a bit overwhelming on repeat.

xgoku1

Yeah, I'm not buying any DLCs if it's going to continue the stupid "Yearly Season" gimmick. It's as simple as that.

I'm not holding out any hope though, I doubt they will change this format in 2023. IMO ZOS is quite creatively bankrupt.

You'd think they'd see the writing on the wall when they had to give away the Q4 DLC for free in two consecutive years.

TiaFrye

xgoku1 wrote: »

Yeah, I'm not buying any DLCs if it's going to continue the stupid "Yearly Season" gimmick. It's as simple as that.

I'm not holding out any hope though, I doubt they will change this format in 2023. IMO ZOS is quite creatively bankrupt.

You'd think they'd see the writing on the wall when they had to give away the Q4 DLC for free in two consecutive years.

Yes, 2023 is likely set for another YLS, but hopefully with enough feedback from players parts of it in story still can be improved in-model before recording VO at least.

Supreme_Atromancer

SammyKhajit wrote: »

if Frri has to say one more line of “Roots, sundered and exposed to the sun, bla bla bla”, this one will be tempted to pull out an axe.

"Sharp blade...chop. chop. Feels...hurty."

SammyKhajit

TiaFrye wrote: »

SammyKhajit wrote: »

Not judging btw, just found mention and its situation interesting in connection to our current theme! I'm a casual "fan", only seen the movies, but I was watching from sidelines how Rings' situation was discussed. Personally I was watching HotD.

Agreed on trendy vs DNA stuff, and again - trendy brings money and it seems to be the reason behind almost everything that makes narrative worse.

I liked Frri, but as you said speech patterns were a bit overwhelming on repeat.

This one also watched HotD. Very interesting contrasts between the two shows!

On the DNA, this one thinks that it’d be nice to bring back a story about the Elder Scrolls themselves. Lore experts can share insights here as Sammy is not familiar with what happened to the scrolls during this time.

Or maybe a guilds war where the Dark Brotherhood is at odds with the Mages/Fighters Guild and the vestige must pick a side. Depending on what you choose, there will be different outcomes (ie no win win, as there will be consequences to your decision).