Year Long Stories are killing your characters \\ Jan19, Empty promise

VaranisArano

ESO has settled into a formula. The Chapter gets a handful of new major characters, but the weight of carrying the Chapter hangs on recurring characters from past content and the nostalgia that comes with it as they serve as a "companion" to the player and taskmaster pushing the plot along.

To some degree, I think the writers get a bad rap. They can still turn out fan favorites, like Fennorian and Arox. They can still write recurring characters that are allowed to have character growth, like Count Verandis and Lyranth Foolkiller. They even do a good job with new characters who we don't necessarily lift up to favorite status, but still are interesting, like Khamira or the four Ambitions.

Where I struggle is the reuse of older characters to carry the Chapter. It can turn out great: House Ravenwatch has a bunch of fans who like their portrayal. It can turn out badly: Eveli Sharp-Arrow's character growth at the end of Orsinium might as well not have happened. It can also mutilate new player's understanding of ESO's original plot, such as with Abnur Tharn and Cadwell in Elsweyr. In the case of Lyris Titanborn and Sai Sahan, it straight up sacrificed player choice for the sake of nostalgia.

I haven't played High Isle yet, so I can't say if reappearances like Jakarn and the Alliance Leaders will leave me happy or cold.

TiaFrye

VaranisArano wrote: »

ESO has settled into a formula. The Chapter gets a handful of new major characters, but the weight of carrying the Chapter hangs on recurring characters from past content and the nostalgia that comes with it as they serve as a "companion" to the player and taskmaster pushing the plot along.

To some degree, I think the writers get a bad rap. They can still turn out fan favorites, like Fennorian and Arox. They can still write recurring characters that are allowed to have character growth, like Count Verandis and Lyranth Foolkiller. They even do a good job with new characters who we don't necessarily lift up to favorite status, but still are interesting, like Khamira or the four Ambitions.

Where I struggle is the reuse of older characters to carry the Chapter. It can turn out great: House Ravenwatch has a bunch of fans who like their portrayal. It can turn out badly: Eveli Sharp-Arrow's character growth at the end of Orsinium might as well not have happened. It can also mutilate new player's understanding of ESO's original plot, such as with Abnur Tharn and Cadwell in Elsweyr. In the case of Lyris Titanborn and Sai Sahan, it straight up sacrificed player choice for the sake of nostalgia.

I haven't played High Isle yet, so I can't say if reappearances like Jakarn and the Alliance Leaders will leave me happy or cold.

I guess people started to feel less confident about the model because Jakarn isn't that big of a character to carry the chapter on his back (a few capitains are here as well and they helped a lot more than him imo) and screen time for Alliance leaders is very low even though time I've spent with them was the best in the chapter. But it was okay-ish until now... Because in Firesong there's no recurring characters in zone's MQ aside from dungeon and prologue ones and they are new.
That hits hard and makes you remember all the former mistakes made during previous seasons in terms of the cast.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Agreed. I loved the Daedric War Arc... nothing has come close to that since then. The only new significant character since then that I've truly liked or cared about is Fennorian.

colossalvoids

Can not agree more and that's probably my main problem with the game currently. In the end i can live with bad combat or development decisions etc. but if the core of tes adventure is shattered everything starts to matter less, you're starting to skip dialogue out of annoyance and story falls apart, which was probably their main focus for last 3 years, as we didn't got any decent features along.

Characters like Eveli (as an example) still make me grind my teeth, she grew a lot in Orsinium and now it's a happy Disney movie character walking us along. Like yeah, let's pretend she hit a rock in a head or something at least. Same as any other character that's reoccurring still, can't remember any that was actually a well handled one, maybe Abnur in a sense but still it was a bit of a mess, you can clearly see dislike of him by the writers which I can't support myself (his base game remarks about Lyrics were chef kiss and still holds true).

Still remember Summerset as a story conclusion with a warm feeling, all the deaths and feelings were actually impactful and everything mattered. Now in the end of the story you can barely remember the names of main characters.

Arunei

The year-long story formula really needs to change. A single year is not enough time to fully develop a meaningful plot with characters that have enough depth that we actually feel for them. Plots keep turning into carbon copies of each other (basically some variation of "save the world"), and far too often old characters are brought back for the sake of fanservice and/or nostalgia. But it just feels lazy when characters from past arcs are shoved into the spotlight, when it makes little sense for these same people to keep showing up in the Vestige's life. Why, exactly, did it have to be Eveli to get the Xarxes and for her to be the companion for Blackwood? Why did Zaji have to return, rather than a new character with the Dragonguard? Why did Sai or Lyris have to return for their respective Chapters and completely negate a choice made in the base game's main quest?

Beyond that, the "do any dlc in any order" thing prevents any actual character development, as others have mentioned. How absolutely confusing might it be to someone to get shoved into Elsweyr's story with Tharn and do all that, only to then find the actual base game main quest and him no longer remember you, but also be somewhat different in character? The game offers no real direction on even a vague order to doing DLC, so it's jarring to do things out of order and have any attachment you do get with characters get butchered as that development gets thrown out the window.

I remember how sad I was at the end of Summerset's main quest, especially after finding the book upstairs. Because that was handled well enough by Derian explaining that things that happened to him might not have happened to the player yet, if you hadn't done the base game's main quest first. That way if you DID wind up doing it afterward you'd know that at least Derian remembered you, even though YOU had no memory of him. They can't do that with every recurring character though, so they need to figure out something to address the problem.

That being said I'd love to see Fennorian again in the future, but only if his presence makes actual sense and lends well to the story.

TiaFrye

colossalvoids wrote: »

Can not agree more and that's probably my main problem with the game currently. In the end i can live with bad combat or development decisions etc. but if the core of tes adventure is shattered everything starts to matter less, you're starting to skip dialogue out of annoyance and story falls apart, which was probably their main focus for last 3 years, as we didn't got any decent features along.

Characters like Eveli (as an example) still make me grind my teeth, she grew a lot in Orsinium and now it's a happy Disney movie character walking us along. Like yeah, let's pretend she hit a rock in a head or something at least. Same as any other character that's reoccurring still, can't remember any that was actually a well handled one, maybe Abnur in a sense but still it was a bit of a mess, you can clearly see dislike of him by the writers which I can't support myself (his base game remarks about Lyrics were chef kiss and still holds true).

Still remember Summerset as a story conclusion with a warm feeling, all the deaths and feelings were actually impactful and everything mattered. Now in the end of the story you can barely remember the names of main characters.

I think we all can benefit from smoothly running game but I must agree that story content is my last stand as well. Without it and characters I care about the only thing I might log in once a year for is to cry over my cosmetic collection.

SammyKhajit

This one is tired of the two-part formula.

Could be moon sugar and old age, but khajit has difficulty remembering several months on, what happened in the first installment and what are we doing now. This may have to do with the less than creative stories and content. The lore is interesting as are a few individual new characters, but overall, High Isle and Firesong have been less than stellar in terms of storytelling. There is a real disconnect between the two that at first it was really hard to get interested in the Firesong DLC.

colossalvoids

TiaFrye wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Can not agree more and that's probably my main problem with the game currently. In the end i can live with bad combat or development decisions etc. but if the core of tes adventure is shattered everything starts to matter less, you're starting to skip dialogue out of annoyance and story falls apart, which was probably their main focus for last 3 years, as we didn't got any decent features along.

Characters like Eveli (as an example) still make me grind my teeth, she grew a lot in Orsinium and now it's a happy Disney movie character walking us along. Like yeah, let's pretend she hit a rock in a head or something at least. Same as any other character that's reoccurring still, can't remember any that was actually a well handled one, maybe Abnur in a sense but still it was a bit of a mess, you can clearly see dislike of him by the writers which I can't support myself (his base game remarks about Lyrics were chef kiss and still holds true).

Still remember Summerset as a story conclusion with a warm feeling, all the deaths and feelings were actually impactful and everything mattered. Now in the end of the story you can barely remember the names of main characters.

I think we all can benefit from smoothly running game but I must agree that story content is my last stand as well. Without it and characters I care about the only thing I might log in once a year for is to cry over my cosmetic collection.

Not arguing about the game's state here, my biggest interest fields are heavily dependent on it be it going for 100% dlc dungeons or pvping when able to (rarely so now) but yeah, when there's no grounding for all of it it's kinda falls flat in a sense.

I'm glad that have people to run group content with still as without it I would be probably long gone and actually logging in to check new cosmetics to make some screenshots instead of playing the game, sigh.

Snamyap

Haven't read all the posts, but it seems to me that reccuring characters are a bigger pain point than the year long themes. Especially characters that (could) have died earlier, like Lyris and Sai Sahan.
I agree that the stories aren't as good as they used to be but I don't think that's tied to the year long theme either. There is praise here for the long Daedric storyline but Wrothgar often comes out on top of what the best expansion was.
In short: they need to up the story writing. High Isle was ok-ish, but while I liked the druid story on Galen, it took until the second part before it was even clear what it had to do with the story on High Isle.

TiaFrye

Snamyap wrote: »

Haven't read all the posts, but it seems to me that reccuring characters are a bigger pain point than the year long themes. Especially characters that (could) have died earlier, like Lyris and Sai Sahan.
I agree that the stories aren't as good as they used to be but I don't think that's tied to the year long theme either. There is praise here for the long Daedric storyline but Wrothgar often comes out on top of what the best expansion was.
In short: they need to up the story writing. High Isle was ok-ish, but while I liked the druid story on Galen, it took until the second part before it was even clear what it had to do with the story on High Isle.

Wrothgar back then was a testing ground for chapters in the future and its main quest was made by the same people who did Summerset. So for the folks who know Wrothgar is a prologue to DW Arc. There were a lot of characters from the base game, hints and more. And at time it also was a direct base game sequel before the retcon.

Jammy420

Oakenaxe wrote: »

Yes! Disconnecting every chapter/DLC was a shot in the foot. It killed any sort of character development or long term plot construction. Stories and shallow, they lack emotion and bonding to characters.

How could they fix this from now on? One thing that came to my mind was a possible return of the main questline. However, in order for it to work at this point, it should be unlocked only after completing all of the storylines from the maps that are somehow involved in the game's main plot (Three Banner's War/Planemeld) and/or with the game's main characters. All of the new content from now on would have it's regional storyline AND the main questline. This way they can keep future content both independent and meaningful/impactful in a main storyline. This is just one idea, I would like to hear more possible solutions.

It is a shame that we stay bound to seasonal short stories that have no deep implications in the world and it's characters. Especially in a TES game. Give us more bonding to your game, it surely has the potential. Let us see characters evolve, see throne successions, mourn losses... give us more emotion!

I was wondering what was missing, now I know. I was very very invested in Vardenfell, Clockwork city and summerset, but the newer stuff is all too standalone for me. I always get excited when things are tightly connected, and this, since the Greymoor update ( sadly cuz i love vamps and wws ) is not it.

me_ming

I'm a returning player, played since 2015. I was honestly gutted when Jakarn did not recognized my main character. No, "Hey nice to see you again", and, as silly as this sounds, I had a crush on him. I haven't finish Summerset yet, but I've happened to recently read a letter on one of the PoI in Summerset written by Veya and I was excited (not really suprised) to learn that she was well... you know, joined a certain group. I wanted to know more about it. This is what made storytelling by ZoS before made great. Is that you feel invested to these characters.

Before pre Tamriel Unlimited, I know even (some) hardcore PvP players and end game players were doing the storylines at least once, because they enjoyed the storylines. I remember veteran players will actually tell newer players who ask post level 50 questions, to not focus on it and just play through the storylines. It's kinda sad that, that level of storytelling is not as important anymore. I liked it when towns and cities were changed after you completed the quest. I like that recurring characters like Naryu and Gabrielle and Darien didn't felt like friends who were glad to see you again. I mean, let's be honest here, ESO's strength has always been it's storytelling, people can argue that combat, balance, gameplay and content is poor, and they may have a point, but this game's storytelling has always been rock solid. I wish they have played more to that strength rather than just thinking how they can add more players in.

TiaFrye

me_ming wrote: »

I'm a returning player, played since 2015. I was honestly gutted when Jakarn did not recognized my main character. No, "Hey nice to see you again", and, as silly as this sounds, I had a crush on him. I haven't finish Summerset yet, but I've happened to recently read a letter on one of the PoI in Summerset written by Veya and I was excited (not really suprised) to learn that she was well... you know, joined a certain group. I wanted to know more about it. This is what made storytelling by ZoS before made great. Is that you feel invested to these characters.

Before pre Tamriel Unlimited, I know even (some) hardcore PvP players and end game players were doing the storylines at least once, because they enjoyed the storylines. I remember veteran players will actually tell newer players who ask post level 50 questions, to not focus on it and just play through the storylines. It's kinda sad that, that level of storytelling is not as important anymore. I liked it when towns and cities were changed after you completed the quest. I like that recurring characters like Naryu and Gabrielle and Darien didn't felt like friends who were glad to see you again. I mean, let's be honest here, ESO's strength has always been it's storytelling, people can argue that combat, balance, gameplay and content is poor, and they may have a point, but this game's storytelling has always been rock solid. I wish they have played more to that strength rather than just thinking how they can add more players in.

I envy you a little. I would've liked to play Summerset like for the first time. It was an emotional rollercoaster back in 2018.

LikiLoki

A year-long story? This is the worst thing in the game. I don't go to dungeons, especially those that are trying to sell me. I don't remember such long stories, so I feel lost when these strange bots tell me something. It doesn't bind the game for me, it breaks the game into pieces.

DMuehlhausen

They aren't changing how they are doing it. This is what they said they would be doing back in like 2015 when they talked future content. This is how they want to tell their story.

SerafinaWaterstar

Quite like the idea of year long stories. Or more. Just want them better written, with less obvious ‘baddies’ & less fear about killing off characters (would have made Deadlands fantastic if Eveli had sacrificed herself at the end. Oh gods I dislike her.).

Recurring characters are also fine - if done well.

The main issue is that Zos seems to be actively avoiding telling new players about all the quests that they should do in a certain order to make the stories make sense. I have played long enough to have done all content in the order it came out, and it does make the game better. But they are trying to balance bringing in new players with things that old one will appreciate, and its not something they are always doing well.

So that, and much better writing would help.

(Sorry but “Summerset was an ‘emotional rollercoaster’” - really? Why do you think that?)

Kingsindarkness

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

I agree, it's why people praise story of FF and GW2. You have a recurring cast that holds everything together.

ESO story is considered rather mid and rarely enters the conversation.

I think it's too late for ESO to change direction. 2 more expansions and the world would be pretty filled in by then.

I agree with this...but it's never too late to improve the writing and give us Characters we can get invested in...I don't think they have to change their year-long story, just put some "feels" into the writing.

I honestly could give two hot damns about any of the NPC's in ESO...FFXIV is a very different story.

TiaFrye

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

(Sorry but “Summerset was an ‘emotional rollercoaster’” - really? Why do you think that?)

Because the amount of good characters who make a return, amount of new characters that is written well, amount of turns in the story as well as meaningful sacrifices happening on screen makes you feel joy one second and despair minutes later. All over again.

That might not be the case for everyone, it was for me and my friends, let's leave it at that.

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

They aren't changing how they are doing it. This is what they said they would be doing back in like 2015 when they talked future content. This is how they want to tell their story.

They said the same about a lot of things that are now changed.

Oakenaxe

I'm seeing that a lot of people share the same opinion, I hope this info is being passed on and they are taking notes. All we want is for this game, that we love, to achieve all the potential it has. Thanks for creating this topic.

Vevvev

TiaFrye wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

(Sorry but “Summerset was an ‘emotional rollercoaster’” - really? Why do you think that?)

Because the amount of good characters who make a return, amount of new characters that is written well, amount of turns in the story as well as meaningful sacrifices happening on screen makes you feel joy one second and despair minutes later. All over again.

That might not be the case for everyone, it was for me and my friends, let's leave it at that.
.

Same, Summerset was amazing if you did all the content in the game up until that point, and it was the penultimate ending of the daedric plot, saw some characters see an end to their stories that have been built up for years, gave the player little relationship options in dialogue, had a great story, the stakes actually existed cause you didn't know who'd live or die, and so much more.... Summerset is ESO's Magnum Opus in my eyes with Wrothgar alongside it.

Tommy_The_Gun

I think the problem is that ZOS keeps re-using same characters over & over every year, instead of re-introducing other NPCs from the base game that for sure deserve it.

TiaFrye

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I think the problem is that ZOS keeps re-using same characters over & over every year, instead of re-introducing other NPCs from the base game that for sure deserve it.

The ones with constant returns and mostly used as a comic relief are just that. Comic relief. It was annoying at first, but now I just look trough them and move on.

I agree that even this rotation should be changed. There's so much characters in base game who didn't return even once like Telenger yet we keep getting Laurent and Stibbons every time.

So far ZoS was able to pull it with side quests though, yet burning question of quality of characters in Main Quests remains. MQs need a strong lead or multiple of leads with same amount of screen time and real good reason to be in this situation and place.

dcam86b14_ESO

I didn't even realize the two druids in HI and FS were different people until I finished the main story ...I was so confused.
The tree thing was just a replacement for the Tharn storyline in Eslweyr. The HI / FS twist for the villains was predictable and I had no connection to them at all, I would've been more surprised if Lady Arabel turned out to be the big bad.

As a long-time player, since BETA I miss the days of Orsinium / Vard/SS writing, I felt more invested and didn't click skip on every piece of dialogue in the second half of the DLC story cause I just want to get to the end of the main story.

tiriusavarao

^^ I struggled to recall Ryvana as well - they've done us no favours with making her and Laurel look so alike (down to having the exact same hair style, if with a slightly different colour). Giving either one a different hair style or skin colour would have helped.

As someone who came back to the game with Summerset's release, I never really got to experience the full Vvardenfell-Clockwork-Summerset tale in order and just played Summerset without even realising the other two were part of the story. As such, I've experienced every release as its own thing and do not mind the concept at all. What I do believe is an issue, is that Summerset was a single larger story instead of two smaller ones. The current setup, combined with the "you don't have to do the Q2 story before the Q4 one" setup essentially cuts in half the time we can get invested in new characters. Even if they do appear in both stories (and not just return for the Q4 coda) the time between the releases does not help. Strong and/or distinctive characters like Khamira can overcome this, but they are the exception. I can see ,say, Lady Arabelle gaining that status from High Isle but am already struggling to recall who our allies for Greymoor and Blackwood were outside of Eveli and Verandis. Certainly nobody I expect to turn up again later - if and when we go to Central Skyrim, I'd love it if that continued Svana's story from Greymoor for example, but so long as the "any quest in any order" is maintained that is likely a no-go.

With regards to bringing back old characters - it's a mixed bag. I loved Raz's little side quest in Northern Elsweyr. Seeing some of the NPCs from past seasons turn up in Blackwood for single quests was nice, and a lot of these I felt were more interesting than the zone's main one. If the quest is fun and well written, bring it on. I do agree with posters above saying that returning characters need to make some sense though. We can expect someone like Raz or Rigurt turning up wherever duty takes them, but having Za'ji be the one to ferry Ayrenn to High Isle was a bit of a stretch given the likely vast Dominion armada's options. I love Za'ji and Caska, but it did not make much sense - unless it was Ayrenn's idea to travel incognito on a seemingly independent ship, and I don't recall something along those lines being mentioned. A bit of clever writing could explain a bit more than we usually get.

jle30303

I have to admit I was disappointed with Firesong, in that after having been promised "political intrigue" it reverted to "blow up the world and rule over the ashes as the Chosen One Descended From Past Glories"...

I want another Wrothgar, now THAT was political intrigue (with the bonus of taking place amid a culture that is normally not exactly suited to nuanced political thinking), it was a storyline that only affected Wrothgar, it wasn't a case of destroying Civilization As We Know It. It was the vision of trying to build something new, versus trying to hang on to old ways that had worked so far but were beginning to come under strain given the new conditions of the wider world, and how far the builder would go with claiming the means were justified by the end. Nobody chose King Kurog, he put no store by his ancestry either: he chose himself, and began his project well, actually thinking for the betterment of his people, and fell into madness when other people genuinely thought their way was better, and in the end, Bazrag unwillingly ended up in charge of the project that he had resisted (yet had not actually conspired or fought against, only opposed in argument.)

By comparison, whoever wrote even the High Isle story, let alone Firesong, wouldn't know real intrigue if it bit them on the posterior.

TaSheen

Y'know, you could use spoiler tags....

stevenyaub16_ESO

Big difference between FFXIV, GW2 and ESO is that those cast of npcs have relationships between each other. You care about their story. Also why party banter in RPGs is incredibly important.

In ESO they are just there to tell you stuff. World saved, cya. If they had ued the same group of NPC's e.g. raz + naryu + darian whom were present with each expansion and you being the other member of the "troupe" it would have been a much more exciting experience.

But as I said before I think it's way too late now, can only hope next big MMO does it well. It's highly unlikely the course will change.

Carcamongus

I like the idea of year-long adventures, but my problem is with their writing. Last year, we concluded Blackwood's story with one of the characters as a hero, only for that person to do a U-turn and become a villain in Deadlands. That change was poorly explained, especially considering the character's initial motivations. Legacy of the Bretons was a wasted opportunity to make a memorable story: the Ascendant Order could have been far more interesting if it was actually an organization fighting for some form of freedom, as opposed to a bunch of thugs playing the "help the oppressed" card; the Ascendant Lord was one of the most uninteresting villains in the game, which is a bloody waste. The idea of ending the war and replacing the Ruby Throne with something better could have been so exciting, but instead we get an order of brutes led by a shallow and power-hungry Darth Vader impersonator.

jle30303

Agreed. I would rather that the roles of Za'ji and Jimila in "High Isle" were reversed. Jimila, although also a former pirate turned privateer, has a much longer history of working officially with the Dominion - all the way from Khenarthi's Roost onwards - while Za'ji would have been better used in the cameo sidequest that Jimila had.

Soarora

Carcamongus wrote: »

I like the idea of year-long adventures, but my problem is with their writing. Last year, we concluded Blackwood's story with one of the characters as a hero, only for that person to do a U-turn and become a villain in Deadlands. That change was poorly explained, especially considering the character's initial motivations. Legacy of the Bretons was a wasted opportunity to make a memorable story: the Ascendant Order could have been far more interesting if it was actually an organization fighting for some form of freedom, as opposed to a bunch of thugs playing the "help the oppressed" card; the Ascendant Lord was one of the most uninteresting villains in the game, which is a bloody waste. The idea of ending the war and replacing the Ruby Throne with something better could have been so exciting, but instead we get an order of brutes led by a shallow and power-hungry Darth Vader impersonator.

Honestly, I thought Legacy of the Bretons (if in the perspective of it really being about Druids and only in regards to the main quest) was surprisingly good. The bar from Blackwood/Fargrave wasn’t very high though. And my belief in it being good was with a big “if”, that “if” being that IF the Ascendent Lord is [redacted] then the story loses my respect. And then it was. It was so predictable it hurts.

Here’s what I was hoping would happen…

I was expecting to see more of Druid-Breton relations in historical and current contexts to reflect on real history. I also was wishing, though with the context that I love Maormer, that the Ascendent Lord would be none other than Sorcerer-King Orgnum, leading the Dreadsails (disguised as pirates while really being a part of the Armada) to take over High Isle (he is said to lead the Armada but isn’t seen in Summerset…). With someone so powerful, the druids and bretons would have to reconnect with each other to dispel the threat while avoiding combat as there’s no way anyone could fight Orgnum head-on. In this disarray, the alliance leaders bicker and the peace falls apart but in the end the bonds between Druids and Bretons are stronger than ever. You win some, you lose some, and it stays political and not world-ending while fleshing out the yknow… Legacy of the Bretons.