PVP Balance in U37 - In Depth Balance Suggestions

Melzo

I have a ping of 200 and sometimes I see how I ran behind the wall and I still get damage from the spam ability of a two-handed weapon. On the other hand, I try to inflict damage on them, but it turns out the opposite. Of course a 1-2m increase will make it easier for me to play, but for players with good ping it will be even easier to rampage. You can see a banal example in Cyrodiil when a player with good ping runs among a bunch of players and no one can attack him. With 200 ping despite minor issues I can play bg just fine but when I go into Cyrodiil my 200 pings go up to 350 during high player hours. And when I click on the sprint, I speed up after 5 seconds. I don’t know what can be fixed in pvp, but increasing the melee range by 2 meters is just not the way to simplify pvp ....

it would be better if they gave a new branch for magic classes in which there will be a skill for finishing at a distance)))

SkaraMinoc

React wrote: »

To answer your question specifically, I assume you are talking about assassin's will with that question. Assasin's Will is fine.

This had no telegraph in melee range. The audio started playing when the damage already dealt a killing blow.

React

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

React wrote: »

To answer your question specifically, I assume you are talking about assassin's will with that question. Assasin's Will is fine.

This had no telegraph in melee range. The audio started playing when the damage already dealt a killing blow.

There is an audio queue when your target acquires the bow, and audio queue when they fire it. There is a 500MS minimum travel distance which means that if they hit you with a stun (other than off balance) you have time to break free and dodgeroll or block it.

If you didn't hear the audio, you can attribute that to cyrodiil lag or your own settings

Melzo

React wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

React wrote: »

To answer your question specifically, I assume you are talking about assassin's will with that question. Assasin's Will is fine.

This had no telegraph in melee range. The audio started playing when the damage already dealt a killing blow.

There is an audio queue when your target acquires the bow, and audio queue when they fire it. There is a 500MS minimum travel distance which means that if they hit you with a stun (other than off balance) you have time to break free and dodgeroll or block it.

If you didn't hear the audio, you can attribute that to cyrodiil lag or your own settings

Which sound??? If an arrow with such damage flies at you, you should feel it with your ass.

SkaraMinoc

React wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

React wrote: »

To answer your question specifically, I assume you are talking about assassin's will with that question. Assasin's Will is fine.

This had no telegraph in melee range. The audio started playing when the damage already dealt a killing blow.

There is an audio queue when your target acquires the bow, and audio queue when they fire it. There is a 500MS minimum travel distance which means that if they hit you with a stun (other than off balance) you have time to break free and dodgeroll or block it.

If you didn't hear the audio, you can attribute that to cyrodiil lag or your own settings

Moving to other thread.

Sergykid

line of sight is definitely an issue. Two players circling a pillar won't ever land a hit on eachother even though they occasionally meet.
just go and stand with vertically half of ur character behind a pillar and the other half in sight. The other player when uses an ability, will trigger the animation and the sound, and more importantly the global cooldown, but the spell will not launch.

i personally had many experiences, one even recently when it was a close fight near a tower wall, i did a fossilize on target which was in my sight, but he actually wasn't according to the game, i triggered my global cooldown and the stun didn't go, he attacked and when i wanted to heal i couldn't because gcd was triggered even though i didn't launch any spell on the past two seconds

line of sight and targeting are the biggest problems on this game

xylena_lazarow

Sergykid wrote: »

line of sight and targeting are the biggest problems on this game

IIRC player position tracking is one of the things that casual MMO games sacrifice to fit more players in the same instance, compared to the very precise position tracking of competitive arena esport games. Yes it's silly you can turn medieval siege warfare into Scooby Doo by running in circles around something, no they will never fix it.

TechMaybeHic

Sergykid wrote: »

line of sight is definitely an issue. Two players circling a pillar won't ever land a hit on eachother even though they occasionally meet.
just go and stand with vertically half of ur character behind a pillar and the other half in sight. The other player when uses an ability, will trigger the animation and the sound, and more importantly the global cooldown, but the spell will not launch.

i personally had many experiences, one even recently when it was a close fight near a tower wall, i did a fossilize on target which was in my sight, but he actually wasn't according to the game, i triggered my global cooldown and the stun didn't go, he attacked and when i wanted to heal i couldn't because gcd was triggered even though i didn't launch any spell on the past two seconds

line of sight and targeting are the biggest problems on this game

And we could all fly if it weren't for gravity.

Just saying as I have seen this as an issue as far back as SWG and feels like every MMO. There's a very thin line between having objects matter to not matter at all, and latency and position accuracy makes that impossible to hit. It definitely is a problem, but because this game is terrible at tracking location accurately. I wish it were better but I doubt it would ever be good

SPR_of_HA_community

I personally do not like when 12 people running withtons of hots and kills 1 or some noobs, whyle they even can not press any skill because of server bugs and lags.

Individual players do not care me much.

SPR_of_HA_community

By the way - any information about U37 ?

Or they will just make one more U35 with even worse changes ? )

Will they at least revert or change all bad changes from U35, or do they think that they made all "this" - and it is "OK for them ? Just can move forward ? " )))

Turtle_Bot

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Making it 'harder' to play as a group will result in more population lost from the casual community (if there's much more population to lose from those areas).

The power gap between premades and randoms is out of control. What can be done?

@xylena_lazarow
I've not played for a while but at least some things here would likely help:
Remove earthgore, plaguebreak (at least the on death explosion) & review all pull sets.
Implement softcaps to stats (hp, mag, stam, wep dmg and sp dmg).
Increase group cap to 16 or 24.
Fix negate so that it can be countered (I assume this hasn't been fixed yet).
Adjust snow treaders,
Adjust some cp (suggestions here are reasonable, I would still nerf the speed star too)
Revert the healing springs vs HoT healing changes (so that non burst healing can be countered via negate).

Now to encourage back the population:
Most of these suggestions -

Negate is easy to counter, play stamina and you get to completely ignore an "ultimate" for free, especially since it doesn't remove buffs that are already active.

I do agree that earthgore is causing issues, it honestly should not be able to cleanse sieges or other ground-based effects which would allow them to be much more effective against large groups. Plaguebreak is ok, it only really hurts when everyone is super clumped up which is a sad result of the myriad of different pull sets/mechanics currently plaguing the game and are what is making plaguebreak an "issue". I would look at reworking all the pull sets/skills first before looking into plaguebreak.

Not sure about soft caps to stats, the amount of damage only really became an issue when the damage and healing formula were changed to make weapon/spell damage more impactful than max magicka/stamina for both healing and damage. This change allowed players to focus their stat investments purely into health and damage only and ignore stamina/magicka outside of certain sustain targets. Being able to limit their focus to only 2 stats, players have become super tanky while also being heavy nukers since they no longer have to invest into 3 or 4 stats.

I'd love to see the group cap increased back to the old 24 limit, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon if at all, especially not while the issue of ball groups lagging out/crashing servers is still an issue.

Snow treaders definitely need a rework, snare/immobilization immunity is extremely powerful in pvp, especially with all the free movement speed everyone gets now.

There's nothing really that can truly balance organized groups outside of applying hard limitations such has limiting heal stacking to 2 of the same heal/stackable buff on a player at any given time.

xylena_lazarow

I've always heard devs say that players are much better at identifying problems than solving them. We players disagree on solutions, but solutions are not our job anyway.

This thread shows players in agreement over numerous identified problems in both combat and structure. The sheer volume of identified problems leaves me skeptical it's even possible to fix, let alone whether the devs can or are willing.

My pipe dream is an ESO Classic server, but the best I realistically hope for is another overpowered mythic driving a damage meta, like the Malacath or Oakensoul days. In the meantime this game is uninstalled.

DrSlaughtr

I find it funny that anyone who plays this way:

kite-LA-run-kite-LA-run-Kite-LA-run-ULTIMATE BALORGS BOW-kite-la-run-kite-la-run...

Is going to make giant threads complaining about tank metas, health caps, stripping undeath, etc etc. This style of game play is the current cancer of ESO. Wardens, DKs, Necros and React-Wannabe Nightblades extend combat way longer than it ever should be because the game has enabled this ridiculous style of gameplay. I sit wand watch as Wardens just sprint without a single roll dodge or block and ignore an army of flank damage and laugh. I watch NBs go carpet-carpet-kite-kite-kite-LA-LA-LA-ultimate-bow-repeat around towers and these people want to complain about tank metas.

We have been forced into this ridiculous meta by people who have decided this is a healthy PVP balance, that has grown only more and more annoying since it began a year ago, and we have people who exploit this meta complaining about it as if they aren't part of the problem. What a world we live in.

If it were up to me rallying cry, maras, balorgs, and a handful of other sets would be drastically altered to no longer be a crutch for this type of gameplay, because that's what it is. You build garbage builds that rely on running away for ten minutes until the stars align in all your nonsense, then blow your load getting all your pen and damage straight off your ultimate. Then you act surprised when people complain about spectral bow damage.

I went on my warden today and tested it. I ate every ounce of damage thrown at me, turned around, and blew up an entire group with one dawn breaker and sub assault. When I tested React's NB build? Again, same thing. Run around run around run around being unkillable due to overtuned heals, waiting for everything to line up perfect before turning and blowing everyone up.

Yes, this is totally healthy game play.

Everyone who does it is part of the problem. So complain away. Make 5 page posts about solutions that conveniently won't affect you much rather than admitting the real issues.

xylena_lazarow

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I sit wand watch as Wardens just sprint without a single roll dodge or block and ignore an army of flank damage and laugh. I watch NBs go carpet-carpet-kite-kite-kite-LA-LA-LA-ultimate-bow-repeat around towers and these people want to complain about tank metas... Make 5 page posts about solutions that conveniently won't affect you much rather than admitting the real issues.

Yea they're stomping disorganized casuals. When you have to fight other tryhards (or even enough average zergers who figure out how to abuse op defense) you see the stalemate problem. This sort of nonsense is a symptom of ruining competitive combat and never releasing a proper XvX competitive arena.

React

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I find it funny that anyone who plays this way:

kite-LA-run-kite-LA-run-Kite-LA-run-ULTIMATE BALORGS BOW-kite-la-run-kite-la-run...

What is your issue with "1vX" style gameplay? Why does it bother you so much? After the first time you expressed to me here on the forums that you didn't like my gameplay, I went and watched you play for several hours on your stream. I get that you like to gank, siege, and Xv1 people. I respect that this is how you want to play the game, and I don't sit here and try to devalue that for you. That playstyle isn't for everyone, though.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Is going to make giant threads complaining about tank metas, health caps, stripping undeath, etc etc. This style of game play is the current cancer of ESO. Wardens, DKs, Necros and React-Wannabe Nightblades extend combat way longer than it ever should be because the game has enabled this ridiculous style of gameplay. I sit wand watch as Wardens just sprint without a single roll dodge or block and ignore an army of flank damage and laugh. I watch NBs go carpet-carpet-kite-kite-kite-LA-LA-LA-ultimate-bow-repeat around towers and these people want to complain about tank metas.

So you agree that the tank meta is a problem, then? I don't really understand why you're so upset, when this post is specifically targeting the core problems that enable the exact behavior you are talking about here. The tank meta isn't specifically benefitting solo players or large scale players more - outside of crosshealing, it makes everyone far too difficult to kill.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

We have been forced into this ridiculous meta by people who have decided this is a healthy PVP balance, that has grown only more and more annoying since it began a year ago, and we have people who exploit this meta complaining about it as if they aren't part of the problem. What a world we live in.

We were forced into this meta by zenimax, bud. Don't try to shift the blame anywhere else. You can go ahead and say that "This is all the content creator's faults for running the strongest builds!", but that argument became invalid years ago. The meta is always going to exist based on the choices the developers make, not what the players want. This is the reality of the game we're playing.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

If it were up to me rallying cry, maras, balorgs, and a handful of other sets would be drastically altered to no longer be a crutch for this type of gameplay, because that's what it is. You build garbage builds that rely on running away for ten minutes until the stars align in all your nonsense, then blow your load getting all your pen and damage straight off your ultimate. Then you act surprised when people complain about spectral bow damage.

I agree, rallying cry and maras should absolutley be nerfed. Rallying cry should probably have it's crit resist reduced to 660, losing 30% effectiveness for each person in your group. Maras should lose either the burst heal on the purge proc, or it should have the cooldown extended signifcantly. Balorghs is fine - the truth is, most of the monster sets in the game are terrible in pvp. In terms of viable offensive sets, there is basically balorghs/zaan/maarselok. I'd be all for them reworking some of the other sets or providing new more viable options, but I don't see any issues with balorghs as it stands right now.

The builds I play are all full damage builds with as little sustain/mitigation built into them as possible. I don't run regen glyphs, I don't run regen munduses, I use all damage jewelery traits (or swift with coil), I use 3-4 offensive CP, etc. All of them die easily if you make a mistake, or if you spend too long going offensive.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I went on my warden today and tested it. I ate every ounce of damage thrown at me, turned around, and blew up an entire group with one dawn breaker and sub assault. When I tested React's NB build? Again, same thing. Run around run around run around being unkillable due to overtuned heals, waiting for everything to line up perfect before turning and blowing everyone up.

Yes, this is totally healthy game play.

I really would love to watch you try my build, on either warden or nightblade. Did you record yourself doing that gameplay? Is there a vod I can go watch?

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Everyone who does it is part of the problem. So complain away. Make 5 page posts about solutions that conveniently won't affect you much rather than admitting the real issues.

I'm sorry you feel this way - but you are completely incorrect with this closing statement. Almost every single nerf I suggested directly and signifcantly impacts my playstyles, and if they were all added to the game my current builds would not function. Honestly, it's a laughable accusation to suggest that these wouldn't impact me, and shows that you do not have an understanding of why the meta is the way it is.

Urzigurumash

React wrote: »

Balorghs is fine - the truth is, most of the monster sets in the game are terrible in pvp. In terms of viable offensive sets, there is basically balorghs/zaan/maarselok. I'd be all for them reworking some of the other sets or providing new more viable options, but I don't see any issues with balorghs as it stands right now.

Of course I don't want it nerfed but this set definitely didn't diminish the power of "Kite/Tank until Ult", and despite generally displacing Bloodspawn and Trollking for Stam Brawlers, had its own effect at furthering the "tank meta" in the amount of reliable Damage+Healing gained from 2 slots (Slimecraw was bad for Tank, Domi was bad for Kite, Kena was bad for both). So I guess I might be interested to see the effect on the "tank meta" of switching Balorgh to all Pen and no Damage, I assumed this was the intent of that first change to Balorgh. As for the impact on combat of storing 500 Ult, you could argue that Kite/Tank until Ult always was and always will be the meta no matter the set selection, Balorgh simply delays it a bit, probably true, that's why I say "buffs not nerfs" is almost always valid for Ults in particular.

Now just as before Balorgh, I say some of these Proc Monster Sets need a buff. While I of course commend Proc Scaling as a positive improvement, for all the valid complaints against Unscaled Procs, they didn't buff Healing like Stats Sets, and you could only buff them with Pen / Damage Done. Maybe you don't like playing with crab legs that pop out of your shoulders, I love it.

Urzigurumash

On that note, if we need to cut healing / tankiness / kiting, let's get some more aggressive scaling on Damage Procs.

Sure sure, "they're outside of the GCD" and all that, but they're neat, there's many dozens of them to farm, they don't buff healing, they only ever had a role in extending TTK because they were unscaled.

React

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On that note, if we need to cut healing / tankiness / kiting, let's get some more aggressive scaling on Damage Procs.

Sure sure, "they're outside of the GCD" and all that, but they're neat, there's many dozens of them to farm, they don't buff healing, they only ever had a role in extending TTK because they were unscaled.

I personally do not want to see damage procs buffed. Sets that deal the damage for you are a bad design philosophy, in my opinion. When I suggested they buff/rework other offensive options, I primarily had things like stat increases, debuffs, or other damage modifiers in mind.

The bigger issue with the current damage monster procs is that bad targeting mechanics/location desync makes many of them perform poorly, despite good tooltips or secondary effects. Velidreth often visually travels straight through targets without hitting them, selenes has too slow of an animation, archdruid has a poorly designed proc/targeting mechanism, nunatak takes too long to apply the useful debuff, etc. I'd love to see these mechanics improved rather than just buffing damaging procs across the board.

Urzigurumash

React wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On that note, if we need to cut healing / tankiness / kiting, let's get some more aggressive scaling on Damage Procs.

Sure sure, "they're outside of the GCD" and all that, but they're neat, there's many dozens of them to farm, they don't buff healing, they only ever had a role in extending TTK because they were unscaled.

I personally do not want to see damage procs buffed. Sets that deal the damage for you are a bad design philosophy, in my opinion. When I suggested they buff/rework other offensive options, I primarily had things like stat increases, debuffs, or other damage modifiers in mind.

The bigger issue with the current damage monster procs is that bad targeting mechanics/location desync makes many of them perform poorly, despite good tooltips or secondary effects. Velidreth often visually travels straight through targets without hitting them, selenes has too slow of an animation, archdruid has a poorly designed proc/targeting mechanism, nunatak takes too long to apply the useful debuff, etc. I'd love to see these mechanics improved rather than just buffing damaging procs across the board.

Syvarra's doesn't deserve aggressive scaling, when that set was dominant I agree it was not good, but I don't see why Galerion's couldn't have a tooltip closer to Assassin's Will. The more conditional the proc, the more aggressive the scaling it deserves in my opinion. To me it is fine that they don't cost resources, GCDs, or skill slots if they're favorable to an enjoyable pace of combat, but yes many could use their mechanics improved for sure, it definitely worked for Maarselok - along with a nice buff to its scaling. People go on about divorcing Damage from Healing, well it's already done for proc sets, so if more damage procs were any good, sounds like this idea of balance might be better tested, no?

I definitely agree with more debuffs though, debuff sets are my first choice in this era. Nunatak was a promising candidate that has severe mechanical limtations no doubt - but if those ticks did damage closer to Frost Comet's DoT, I wouldn't complain.

DrSlaughtr

React wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I find it funny that anyone who plays this way:

kite-LA-run-kite-LA-run-Kite-LA-run-ULTIMATE BALORGS BOW-kite-la-run-kite-la-run...

What is your issue with "1vX" style gameplay? Why does it bother you so much? After the first time you expressed to me here on the forums that you didn't like my gameplay, I went and watched you play for several hours on your stream. I get that you like to gank, siege, and Xv1 people. I respect that this is how you want to play the game, and I don't sit here and try to devalue that for you. That playstyle isn't for everyone, though.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Is going to make giant threads complaining about tank metas, health caps, stripping undeath, etc etc. This style of game play is the current cancer of ESO. Wardens, DKs, Necros and React-Wannabe Nightblades extend combat way longer than it ever should be because the game has enabled this ridiculous style of gameplay. I sit wand watch as Wardens just sprint without a single roll dodge or block and ignore an army of flank damage and laugh. I watch NBs go carpet-carpet-kite-kite-kite-LA-LA-LA-ultimate-bow-repeat around towers and these people want to complain about tank metas.

So you agree that the tank meta is a problem, then? I don't really understand why you're so upset, when this post is specifically targeting the core problems that enable the exact behavior you are talking about here. The tank meta isn't specifically benefitting solo players or large scale players more - outside of crosshealing, it makes everyone far too difficult to kill.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

We have been forced into this ridiculous meta by people who have decided this is a healthy PVP balance, that has grown only more and more annoying since it began a year ago, and we have people who exploit this meta complaining about it as if they aren't part of the problem. What a world we live in.

We were forced into this meta by zenimax, bud. Don't try to shift the blame anywhere else. You can go ahead and say that "This is all the content creator's faults for running the strongest builds!", but that argument became invalid years ago. The meta is always going to exist based on the choices the developers make, not what the players want. This is the reality of the game we're playing.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

If it were up to me rallying cry, maras, balorgs, and a handful of other sets would be drastically altered to no longer be a crutch for this type of gameplay, because that's what it is. You build garbage builds that rely on running away for ten minutes until the stars align in all your nonsense, then blow your load getting all your pen and damage straight off your ultimate. Then you act surprised when people complain about spectral bow damage.

I agree, rallying cry and maras should absolutley be nerfed. Rallying cry should probably have it's crit resist reduced to 660, losing 30% effectiveness for each person in your group. Maras should lose either the burst heal on the purge proc, or it should have the cooldown extended signifcantly. Balorghs is fine - the truth is, most of the monster sets in the game are terrible in pvp. In terms of viable offensive sets, there is basically balorghs/zaan/maarselok. I'd be all for them reworking some of the other sets or providing new more viable options, but I don't see any issues with balorghs as it stands right now.

The builds I play are all full damage builds with as little sustain/mitigation built into them as possible. I don't run regen glyphs, I don't run regen munduses, I use all damage jewelery traits (or swift with coil), I use 3-4 offensive CP, etc. All of them die easily if you make a mistake, or if you spend too long going offensive.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I went on my warden today and tested it. I ate every ounce of damage thrown at me, turned around, and blew up an entire group with one dawn breaker and sub assault. When I tested React's NB build? Again, same thing. Run around run around run around being unkillable due to overtuned heals, waiting for everything to line up perfect before turning and blowing everyone up.

Yes, this is totally healthy game play.

I really would love to watch you try my build, on either warden or nightblade. Did you record yourself doing that gameplay? Is there a vod I can go watch?

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Everyone who does it is part of the problem. So complain away. Make 5 page posts about solutions that conveniently won't affect you much rather than admitting the real issues.

I'm sorry you feel this way - but you are completely incorrect with this closing statement. Almost every single nerf I suggested directly and signifcantly impacts my playstyles, and if they were all added to the game my current builds would not function. Honestly, it's a laughable accusation to suggest that these wouldn't impact me, and shows that you do not have an understanding of why the meta is the way it is.

This is exactly why I know you're competely full of it. You watched me for one night when I was messing around with new builds on oh, my lord, I used siege! Gasp! But sure come lie about me. I have hours of streams and short kill clips that anyone can watch. I don't run around like the Gingerbread man and then act like I'm the end an be all. I may run cloak but I do more stand up fighting than anyone running up and down tower stairs waiting for all your free buffs to be ready.

I also don't Xv1 unless it's a tank. I'm rarely in a group more than 5 and often not at all. I can't help it if I'm surrounded by combat. Some of us actually fight in the pit rather than retreat to a tower.

All you do is mislead or talk down to people. I've even agreed with you more than once only for you to somehow turn it into an argument.

I've seen you do it a million times now. You think you know exactly how to fix everything while playing in the exact way that deserves to get erased from the game. Your idea of "Play Your Own Way" is conveniently the most toxic, selfish meta that has ever existed in Cyrodiil since at least Summerset but you act like you're only doing it because that's the way it is. No.

The million of people trying to be Gankenstein with his bow build play more straight up with more actual danger to themselves.

TechMaybeHic

Buffing damage procs sounds like the worst idea ever. It makes it to where you can build even more tanky and get damage. If anything; offensive stat sets need raised as they would be an alternative to running defense and healing and could add to your proc damage; but only if you invest in it.

As for the tower humping thing: I feel sea serpents paired with Mara pretty much gives you everything in 6 pieces as you use LOS and Maras keeps topping you up so sea serpents resets for massive damage reduction, and massive damage stats with berserk and courage. NB tankiness I hear about being blamed all in healing everyone has access to also can do this without a tower due to elusiveness. Even seen sorcs start to appear again with the little serpent above their head then just streak with engine guardian and/or twilight and shield until sea serpents is good again.

But it's not just the small man's. I've seen groups that would probably call themselves ball groups B line for a resource tower if numbers are even remotely close. It just provides way too much having them there for players uninterested in objectives who just want to farm. That's more game design issue than balance issue. Best to ignore them and move to another fight, or wait and make them come out to engage

Urzigurumash

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Buffing damage procs sounds like the worst idea ever. It makes it to where you can build even more tanky and get damage. If anything; offensive stat sets need raised as they would be an alternative to running defense and healing and could add to your proc damage; but only if you invest in it.

How do you figure? A 5 piece that gives offensive stats is a 5 piece that buffs healing, a 5 piece damage proc does nothing for healing. Dumping all your stats in Health gives only an illusion of tankiness, in any era of this game, less Stam / Stam Regen is less breaking free, less blocking, less sprinting, less Mag / Mag Regen is less healing, less buffing. For the most part, going over the top on Health only delays the inevitable. This forum promised me 64 Health Simmering Frenzy Proc Demons with the mono-scaling on procs but these builds were only phantasms, never arriving on the scene with any meaningful degree of effectiveness - per my experience, maybe they did for you.

We need more damage and less healing, healing skills shall not be divorced from the damage stat for reasons discussed a thousand times, and dozens of damage proc sets languish in irrelevance on account of their weak scaling making them horribly inefficient choices - so I say give it a try, consummate the vision of Scaled Procs by giving them some real scaling, a stronger curve.

Turtle_Bot

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

But it's not just the small man's. I've seen groups that would probably call themselves ball groups B line for a resource tower if numbers are even remotely close. It just provides way too much having them there for players uninterested in objectives who just want to farm. That's more game design issue than balance issue. Best to ignore them and move to another fight, or wait and make them come out to engage

I miss when towers could be destroyed. It gave the unorganized zergs a way to fight ball groups as they could remove the biggest advantage ball groups had being easy, reliable LoS and launching/turn and burn platforms. It also forced the ball groups out of the towers to actually fight the full zergs as they were meant to be fighting instead of rushing out to pick off 2 or 3 stragglers then back into the tower and repeat for 3 hours until they log off again.

As someone who played on both the side of the ball group and the side of the zerg, it was a lot of fun. As a ball group, it forced smart play and fast decision making/implementation to fight and wipe as much of the zerg as possible before they could set up and destroy our "safe zone", as part of the zerg, it felt like we actually had a chance if we could set up sieges and get the tower down fast enough then wipe the ball group inside the tower with sieges or force them out into the open and wipe them there with numbers. It made for a lot of fun and intense battles that could go either way at any moment.

Urzigurumash

On second thought @TechMaybeHic maybe I should clarify what I meant by more aggressive scaling - on a plotted graph of a proc's damage scaling, I don't mean increase the Y values of the entire curve, but make the curve steeper and decrease the X values of the steepest part of the curve. No additional damage at 3k Damage Stat, considerably more damage gained by going to 8k from 5k than what we see now. Know what I mean? (assuming it's curved, could be linear, I'm not sure)

Note that the 3 sets which composed the most egregious proc stack of all time, Chokethorn + Syvarra's + Crimson, are now incompatible as they scale off different stats - or would be incompatible if their scaling was strong enough.

TechMaybeHic

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On second thought @TechMaybeHic maybe I should clarify what I meant by more aggressive scaling - on a plotted graph of a proc's damage scaling, I don't mean increase the Y values of the entire curve, but make the curve steeper and decrease the X values of the steepest part of the curve. No additional damage at 3k Damage Stat, considerably more damage gained by going to 8k from 5k than what we see now. Know what I mean? (assuming it's curved, could be linear, I'm not sure)

Note that the 3 sets which composed the most egregious proc stack of all time, Chokethorn + Syvarra's + Crimson, are now incompatible as they scale off different stats - or would be incompatible if their scaling was strong enough.

Yeah that sounds more reasonable but I want active abilities, and classes for the love of all things holy; be the big players. It gotten to be so homogenized as is by sets. And procs that require no input tend to have an advantage as is. I noticed this just running DK with flames of oblivion, which does pathetic damage compared to an execute yeti was amazed how often it was the killing blow because it just goes off at the right time. So I don't find the lack of heal power trade off much as why's it matter if you can heal and something else do damage for you in the same GCD? Or as it is now; something heals you while you spend the GCD keeping defenses up and kiting

Urzigurumash

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On second thought @TechMaybeHic maybe I should clarify what I meant by more aggressive scaling - on a plotted graph of a proc's damage scaling, I don't mean increase the Y values of the entire curve, but make the curve steeper and decrease the X values of the steepest part of the curve. No additional damage at 3k Damage Stat, considerably more damage gained by going to 8k from 5k than what we see now. Know what I mean? (assuming it's curved, could be linear, I'm not sure)

Note that the 3 sets which composed the most egregious proc stack of all time, Chokethorn + Syvarra's + Crimson, are now incompatible as they scale off different stats - or would be incompatible if their scaling was strong enough.

Yeah that sounds more reasonable but I want active abilities, and classes for the love of all things holy; be the big players. It gotten to be so homogenized as is by sets. And procs that require no input tend to have an advantage as is. I noticed this just running DK with flames of oblivion, which does pathetic damage compared to an execute yeti was amazed how often it was the killing blow because it just goes off at the right time. So I don't find the lack of heal power trade off much as why's it matter if you can heal and something else do damage for you in the same GCD? Or as it is now; something heals you while you spend the GCD keeping defenses up and kiting

Fair point, I see what you mean that all 3 of those advantages still given by Scaled Procs (damage without slot / GCD / resources) can be exploited towards tanking / kiting / healing.

On the other hand strong conditional - not simple - proc sets should be able to enhance subclass identity / intraclass diversity. DK is at its most homogenized, FoO + Whip outperforms everything and the class is so strong I don't play it despite being a main. Strong class identity but much more monochromatic than the past. FoO operating outside of the GCD and giving DK some delayed burst is its strength yes and it works. I wouldn't mind a more diverse array of tools like this to speed up TTK. I'm not a fan of class spammables though, or really spammables at all, I like combo offense and conditional procs open up more diverse combo potentials - Maarselok has done just this for a while now, giving classes something to do besides just Whip Whip Jabs Jabs.

xylena_lazarow

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

All you do is mislead or talk down to people.

That's a long post just for an ad hominem argument. I don't personally know you or React, my only dealings with React have been polite and professional, meanwhile you're making yourself sound like a clown with a petty grudge. React sure talks a lot more sense than the full potatoes that keep asking for yet more damage nerfs, that's for sure.

React

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

React wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I find it funny that anyone who plays this way:

kite-LA-run-kite-LA-run-Kite-LA-run-ULTIMATE BALORGS BOW-kite-la-run-kite-la-run...

What is your issue with "1vX" style gameplay? Why does it bother you so much? After the first time you expressed to me here on the forums that you didn't like my gameplay, I went and watched you play for several hours on your stream. I get that you like to gank, siege, and Xv1 people. I respect that this is how you want to play the game, and I don't sit here and try to devalue that for you. That playstyle isn't for everyone, though.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Is going to make giant threads complaining about tank metas, health caps, stripping undeath, etc etc. This style of game play is the current cancer of ESO. Wardens, DKs, Necros and React-Wannabe Nightblades extend combat way longer than it ever should be because the game has enabled this ridiculous style of gameplay. I sit wand watch as Wardens just sprint without a single roll dodge or block and ignore an army of flank damage and laugh. I watch NBs go carpet-carpet-kite-kite-kite-LA-LA-LA-ultimate-bow-repeat around towers and these people want to complain about tank metas.

So you agree that the tank meta is a problem, then? I don't really understand why you're so upset, when this post is specifically targeting the core problems that enable the exact behavior you are talking about here. The tank meta isn't specifically benefitting solo players or large scale players more - outside of crosshealing, it makes everyone far too difficult to kill.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

We have been forced into this ridiculous meta by people who have decided this is a healthy PVP balance, that has grown only more and more annoying since it began a year ago, and we have people who exploit this meta complaining about it as if they aren't part of the problem. What a world we live in.

We were forced into this meta by zenimax, bud. Don't try to shift the blame anywhere else. You can go ahead and say that "This is all the content creator's faults for running the strongest builds!", but that argument became invalid years ago. The meta is always going to exist based on the choices the developers make, not what the players want. This is the reality of the game we're playing.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

If it were up to me rallying cry, maras, balorgs, and a handful of other sets would be drastically altered to no longer be a crutch for this type of gameplay, because that's what it is. You build garbage builds that rely on running away for ten minutes until the stars align in all your nonsense, then blow your load getting all your pen and damage straight off your ultimate. Then you act surprised when people complain about spectral bow damage.

I agree, rallying cry and maras should absolutley be nerfed. Rallying cry should probably have it's crit resist reduced to 660, losing 30% effectiveness for each person in your group. Maras should lose either the burst heal on the purge proc, or it should have the cooldown extended signifcantly. Balorghs is fine - the truth is, most of the monster sets in the game are terrible in pvp. In terms of viable offensive sets, there is basically balorghs/zaan/maarselok. I'd be all for them reworking some of the other sets or providing new more viable options, but I don't see any issues with balorghs as it stands right now.

The builds I play are all full damage builds with as little sustain/mitigation built into them as possible. I don't run regen glyphs, I don't run regen munduses, I use all damage jewelery traits (or swift with coil), I use 3-4 offensive CP, etc. All of them die easily if you make a mistake, or if you spend too long going offensive.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I went on my warden today and tested it. I ate every ounce of damage thrown at me, turned around, and blew up an entire group with one dawn breaker and sub assault. When I tested React's NB build? Again, same thing. Run around run around run around being unkillable due to overtuned heals, waiting for everything to line up perfect before turning and blowing everyone up.

Yes, this is totally healthy game play.

I really would love to watch you try my build, on either warden or nightblade. Did you record yourself doing that gameplay? Is there a vod I can go watch?

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Everyone who does it is part of the problem. So complain away. Make 5 page posts about solutions that conveniently won't affect you much rather than admitting the real issues.

I'm sorry you feel this way - but you are completely incorrect with this closing statement. Almost every single nerf I suggested directly and signifcantly impacts my playstyles, and if they were all added to the game my current builds would not function. Honestly, it's a laughable accusation to suggest that these wouldn't impact me, and shows that you do not have an understanding of why the meta is the way it is.

This is exactly why I know you're competely full of it. You watched me for one night when I was messing around with new builds on oh, my lord, I used siege! Gasp! But sure come lie about me. I have hours of streams and short kill clips that anyone can watch. I don't run around like the Gingerbread man and then act like I'm the end an be all. I may run cloak but I do more stand up fighting than anyone running up and down tower stairs waiting for all your free buffs to be ready.

I also don't Xv1 unless it's a tank. I'm rarely in a group more than 5 and often not at all. I can't help it if I'm surrounded by combat. Some of us actually fight in the pit rather than retreat to a tower.

All you do is mislead or talk down to people. I've even agreed with you more than once only for you to somehow turn it into an argument.

I've seen you do it a million times now. You think you know exactly how to fix everything while playing in the exact way that deserves to get erased from the game. Your idea of "Play Your Own Way" is conveniently the most toxic, selfish meta that has ever existed in Cyrodiil since at least Summerset but you act like you're only doing it because that's the way it is. No.

The million of people trying to be Gankenstein with his bow build play more straight up with more actual danger to themselves.

Since you didn't really address any of the counterpoints I made, I'm going to just assume you're more focused on expressing your dislike for me rather than discussing the topic of the post. Have a great day!

DrSlaughtr

React wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

React wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I find it funny that anyone who plays this way:

kite-LA-run-kite-LA-run-Kite-LA-run-ULTIMATE BALORGS BOW-kite-la-run-kite-la-run...

What is your issue with "1vX" style gameplay? Why does it bother you so much? After the first time you expressed to me here on the forums that you didn't like my gameplay, I went and watched you play for several hours on your stream. I get that you like to gank, siege, and Xv1 people. I respect that this is how you want to play the game, and I don't sit here and try to devalue that for you. That playstyle isn't for everyone, though.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Is going to make giant threads complaining about tank metas, health caps, stripping undeath, etc etc. This style of game play is the current cancer of ESO. Wardens, DKs, Necros and React-Wannabe Nightblades extend combat way longer than it ever should be because the game has enabled this ridiculous style of gameplay. I sit wand watch as Wardens just sprint without a single roll dodge or block and ignore an army of flank damage and laugh. I watch NBs go carpet-carpet-kite-kite-kite-LA-LA-LA-ultimate-bow-repeat around towers and these people want to complain about tank metas.

So you agree that the tank meta is a problem, then? I don't really understand why you're so upset, when this post is specifically targeting the core problems that enable the exact behavior you are talking about here. The tank meta isn't specifically benefitting solo players or large scale players more - outside of crosshealing, it makes everyone far too difficult to kill.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

We have been forced into this ridiculous meta by people who have decided this is a healthy PVP balance, that has grown only more and more annoying since it began a year ago, and we have people who exploit this meta complaining about it as if they aren't part of the problem. What a world we live in.

We were forced into this meta by zenimax, bud. Don't try to shift the blame anywhere else. You can go ahead and say that "This is all the content creator's faults for running the strongest builds!", but that argument became invalid years ago. The meta is always going to exist based on the choices the developers make, not what the players want. This is the reality of the game we're playing.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

If it were up to me rallying cry, maras, balorgs, and a handful of other sets would be drastically altered to no longer be a crutch for this type of gameplay, because that's what it is. You build garbage builds that rely on running away for ten minutes until the stars align in all your nonsense, then blow your load getting all your pen and damage straight off your ultimate. Then you act surprised when people complain about spectral bow damage.

I agree, rallying cry and maras should absolutley be nerfed. Rallying cry should probably have it's crit resist reduced to 660, losing 30% effectiveness for each person in your group. Maras should lose either the burst heal on the purge proc, or it should have the cooldown extended signifcantly. Balorghs is fine - the truth is, most of the monster sets in the game are terrible in pvp. In terms of viable offensive sets, there is basically balorghs/zaan/maarselok. I'd be all for them reworking some of the other sets or providing new more viable options, but I don't see any issues with balorghs as it stands right now.

The builds I play are all full damage builds with as little sustain/mitigation built into them as possible. I don't run regen glyphs, I don't run regen munduses, I use all damage jewelery traits (or swift with coil), I use 3-4 offensive CP, etc. All of them die easily if you make a mistake, or if you spend too long going offensive.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I went on my warden today and tested it. I ate every ounce of damage thrown at me, turned around, and blew up an entire group with one dawn breaker and sub assault. When I tested React's NB build? Again, same thing. Run around run around run around being unkillable due to overtuned heals, waiting for everything to line up perfect before turning and blowing everyone up.

Yes, this is totally healthy game play.

I really would love to watch you try my build, on either warden or nightblade. Did you record yourself doing that gameplay? Is there a vod I can go watch?

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Everyone who does it is part of the problem. So complain away. Make 5 page posts about solutions that conveniently won't affect you much rather than admitting the real issues.

I'm sorry you feel this way - but you are completely incorrect with this closing statement. Almost every single nerf I suggested directly and signifcantly impacts my playstyles, and if they were all added to the game my current builds would not function. Honestly, it's a laughable accusation to suggest that these wouldn't impact me, and shows that you do not have an understanding of why the meta is the way it is.

This is exactly why I know you're competely full of it. You watched me for one night when I was messing around with new builds on oh, my lord, I used siege! Gasp! But sure come lie about me. I have hours of streams and short kill clips that anyone can watch. I don't run around like the Gingerbread man and then act like I'm the end an be all. I may run cloak but I do more stand up fighting than anyone running up and down tower stairs waiting for all your free buffs to be ready.

I also don't Xv1 unless it's a tank. I'm rarely in a group more than 5 and often not at all. I can't help it if I'm surrounded by combat. Some of us actually fight in the pit rather than retreat to a tower.

All you do is mislead or talk down to people. I've even agreed with you more than once only for you to somehow turn it into an argument.

I've seen you do it a million times now. You think you know exactly how to fix everything while playing in the exact way that deserves to get erased from the game. Your idea of "Play Your Own Way" is conveniently the most toxic, selfish meta that has ever existed in Cyrodiil since at least Summerset but you act like you're only doing it because that's the way it is. No.

The million of people trying to be Gankenstein with his bow build play more straight up with more actual danger to themselves.

Since you didn't really address any of the counterpoints I made, I'm going to just assume you're more focused on expressing your dislike for me rather than discussing the topic of the post. Have a great day!

I have, actually. Multiple times. Like in the other thread where you jumped all over me for pointing out the fact that nerfing Undeath hurts low armor builds than high armor builds (it does). Or where I said damage doesn't go far in the meta and then you argued with me over it for multiple pages with your friends, only to post about hating the tank meta a few weeks later.

Or how multiple times you have tried to trounce my stream because you lurked me once late at night when I was testing builds and I committed the horrible crime of shooting a ballista at groups. Go watch my latest kill video and see me fighting multiple people as well as tanks with limited cloak. Make sure to hit the like button.

You suggest stuff like health caps as if REAL tanks don't serve a legitimate role in pvp which conveniently would help you kill players easier when you're trying to set up your weak tether to proc the damage for your bow.

You suggest things like killing undeath for everyone across the board to give you squishier targets to kill. This won't make a DK or Warden built for mitigation any easier to die, but those sorcs and nightblades jamming burst damage on you sure will be.

My issue is that combat outside the tower is drastically different than inside and you are not open to the fact that your ideas, some of which are valid, are not all indicative to the rest of combat, and you immediately try to shoot down anyone offering any counter points.

Not to mention the fact that multiple times you have lied and talked down about my stream when challenged when it has nothing to do with the topic.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

All you do is mislead or talk down to people.

That's a long post just for an ad hominem argument. I don't personally know you or React, my only dealings with React have been polite and professional, meanwhile you're making yourself sound like a clown with a petty grudge. React sure talks a lot more sense than the full potatoes that keep asking for yet more damage nerfs, that's for sure.

I'm honest and direct. I also don't talk down to anyone who disagrees with me. I accept that I don't know everything and I want to see things from other perspectives. I also wouldn't suggest a bunch of changes that would conveniently really help me without acknowledging my own toxic play style.

xylena_lazarow

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Or how multiple times you have tried to trounce my stream because you lurked me once late at night when I was testing builds and I committed the horrible crime of shooting a ballista at groups. Go watch my latest kill video and see me fighting multiple people as well as tanks with limited cloak. Make sure to hit the like button.

I accept that I don't know everything and I want to see things from other perspectives.

Honest neutral perspective: you are still making it sound like this is just some petty grudge, and you base your arguments off a straw man understanding of how React or other smallscale players engage with the game. I do solo, smallscale, zerg, and faction objective PvP in Cyro... the tank meta hurts everyone. It made me quit the game.