PVP Balance in U37 - In Depth Balance Suggestions

React

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I have, actually. Multiple times. Like in the other thread where you jumped all over me for pointing out the fact that nerfing Undeath hurts low armor builds than high armor builds (it does). Or where I said damage doesn't go far in the meta and then you argued with me over it for multiple pages with your friends, only to post about hating the tank meta a few weeks later.

Nerfing undeath does not hurt squishy targets more than tanky targets. You're going to notice the mitigation far more on a tanky target whom you're struggling to kill, than on a squishy target who dies in one rotation regardless.

I also find it hilarious how you are continually insuating that I am making balance suggestions that are favorable to me based on my supposed personal bias, meanwhile defending an obviously broken mitigation passive BECAUSE you specifically claim to benefit from it.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Or how multiple times you have tried to trounce my stream because you lurked me once late at night when I was testing builds and I committed the horrible crime of shooting a ballista at groups. Go watch my latest kill video and see me fighting multiple people as well as tanks with limited cloak. Make sure to hit the like button.

I watched your "kill video" - it is a compilation of you primarily ganking people from stealth or killing them in 1v1 scenarios. There were even multiple clips in this video where you outnumbered your opponents. I didn't see a single time where you were engaged with any more than 3 people without help from guards or another party.

So yes, I am going to take what you say with a grain of salt when your experience with PVP and the combat system seems extremely limited.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

You suggest stuff like health caps as if REAL tanks don't serve a legitimate role in pvp which conveniently would help you kill players easier when you're trying to set up your weak tether to proc the damage for your bow.

If you had read the initial post, I said "health caps are likely unrealistic as they wouldn't be ideal for many players and contrast with zenimax's "play how you want" ideals.

It's funny, it is almost like you forgot that you typed the quote below on the first page of this thread when I first posted it.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything React said. I only one little issue and one commentary. Commentary first, high health. While I don't know if flat out limiting health is the right way to go, there's no denying that seeing 90% of DAMAGE DEALERS running around with upwards of 42k health is problematic.

Again, although you're trying to make this about my "personal bias", this is a post about the tank meta. High health is a problem in the tank meta.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

You suggest things like killing undeath for everyone across the board to give you squishier targets to kill. This won't make a DK or Warden built for mitigation any easier to die, but those sorcs and nightblades jamming burst damage on you sure will be.

You are flat out incorrect. This will make everyone, including myself, much easier to kill. My current build will not work if undeath is removed, and I might even need to use invis cloak to compensate if I can't feasibly recoup the mitigation without sacrificing too much damage. It is completely laughable that you're suggesting nerfing undeath won't impact tanky players.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

My issue is that combat outside the tower is drastically different than inside and you are not open to the fact that your ideas, some of which are valid, are not all indicative to the rest of combat, and you immediately try to shoot down anyone offering any counter points.

I don't know what you want me to say. I obviously don't just PVP inside towers and keeps. I always stick near some sort of line of sight because without invis cloak, you do not have the option to stand there and face tank damage. Regardless of what the uninformed might think, nightblade isn't passively tanky enough to stand there and let multiple people parse you uninterrupted. You will constantly be defensive and you will inevitably run out of resources and die.

We're 8 years into the game - solo play has always revolved around line of sight, and that isn't going to change any time soon.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Not to mention the fact that multiple times you have lied and talked down about my stream when challenged when it has nothing to do with the topic.

I have only cited exactly what I've seen you do, across multiple streams and videos of yours that I've watched.

PhoenixGrey

React wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

React wrote: »

To answer your question specifically, I assume you are talking about assassin's will with that question. Assasin's Will is fine.

This had no telegraph in melee range. The audio started playing when the damage already dealt a killing blow.

There is an audio queue when your target acquires the bow, and audio queue when they fire it. There is a 500MS minimum travel distance which means that if they hit you with a stun (other than off balance) you have time to break free and dodgeroll or block it.

If you didn't hear the audio, you can attribute that to cyrodiil lag or your own settings

If cfrag consistently hit for let’s say 20k. Would you call it balanced because it has counterplay

Nb can cloak when they see a cfrag. That should be good enough right ?

If so is it still good enough when you are doing a 1v6 on your nb ?

boi_anachronism_

This entire thread is basically tank meta is bad but somehow kiting is also bad because burst glass cannon builds should somehow, what? Stand there and take it? All builds should be brawler builds? But somehow we need to counter the tank meta? With what exactly? It's almost like no one understands that most of the folks y'all are talking about are probably newer to pvp and do not have the skill or understanding to try other tactics. Not everyone has been in cyro since it's inception. People want to talk about the skill gap in pve? The skill gap in pvp is absolutely staggering and then you have threads like this. Zos creates the meta, not the players. Period. while some major balancing absolutely needs to happen it's not the players that are responsible for this.. People will use whatever they have at their disposal to try not to get ball grouped down or stalked by some salty vet player across the in-game equivalent of a mile. It sounds an awful lot like you just don't respect x y or z play style because it's annoying to play against. You are allowed that point of view but it's also the nature of the beast, folks will have builds and styles of play that annoy the crap out of you. I think the whole DC bomber build was ridiculous, irritating, and should never have been allowed to go live but I will never blame the players for using it. It was the smart thing to do. If you want folks to play exactly the same pve might be the way to go. We wonder why the pvp community is dying. It's not just server performance and that's a fact 🤦

Sergykid

state of pvp is not as bad as it's described. In high mmr bgs it's mostly fair chance for any build.

yes there are some specs that are stronger but work must be done from here and not backwards.

in this fake news tank meta players don't die because how targeting works, hiding behind a pillar is the best defense regardless of what sets u wear.

and players not dying 1v1 is common with any decent player, healing is by default higher than damage in pvp. No good player can forever survive the pressure of other two good players. If u want to one clap eachother csgo it's it game not eso

xylena_lazarow

Sergykid wrote: »

state of pvp is not as bad as it's described. In high mmr bgs it's mostly fair chance for any build... and players not dying 1v1 is common with any decent player, healing is by default higher than damage in pvp.

Clearly there are still some players having fun but like, did you play this game 5 years ago? What you call "high MMR" is not the same as when the queue was reliably filled with competitive tryhards and not random cp120 guys just so it can pop before the 20 minute mark. The stalemate problem was nowhere near as bad back then, back before the endless blanket PvP damage nerfs and completely unrestrained exponential defensive power creep that began around Summerset.

TechMaybeHic

I don't buy high MMR battlegrounds being a thing when I hear how long it takes to pop. Probably just playing whoever happens to be willing at the time.

Hate to break it to BG players, but if Cyrodiil is a small percentage of the player base; bgs are a smaller percentage of that.

Sergykid

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't buy high MMR battlegrounds being a thing when I hear how long it takes to pop. Probably just playing whoever happens to be willing at the time.

Hate to break it to BG players, but if Cyrodiil is a small percentage of the player base; bgs are a smaller percentage of that.

2-3 mins que time is not that awful. Out of prime time then yes can be 6 mins.

yes battleground playerbase very small, probably under 1000 total different players from any time of day in high mmr.
But that's because content is severely underdeveloped (not more need, but better current).

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

state of pvp is not as bad as it's described. In high mmr bgs it's mostly fair chance for any build... and players not dying 1v1 is common with any decent player, healing is by default higher than damage in pvp.

Clearly there are still some players having fun but like, did you play this game 5 years ago? What you call "high MMR" is not the same as when the queue was reliably filled with competitive tryhards and not random cp120 guys just so it can pop before the 20 minute mark. The stalemate problem was nowhere near as bad back then, back before the endless blanket PvP damage nerfs and completely unrestrained exponential defensive power creep that began around Summerset.

today is less stalemate than it was in most previous time. Playing since years only bgs. Yes currently some specs like wardens immune to ranged are a problem but i speak from a general pov.

queue is a few minutes out of prime time, and it's still filled with competitive tryhards, five star 1500-2500 cps, u can see in videos even mine

Einar_Hrafnarsson

Nerf DPS players with to much healing skills but leave us actual Healers alone. Just nerfing Healing every Time wont fix anything and Reduce the Fun in being an actual Healer even more. Im so sick of it.

Maybe introducing Rolespecific buffs and debuffs would be the smarter option. We have something like that already just for everyone. AKA Healer Bully Spirit. (Battlespirit)

When people join Cyro or BG's they select a role and get buffs/debuffs depending on the Role they chose. DPS can do high damage but little heals. Healers do little damage but have mighty Heals and Tanks will be Tanky but do only moderate damage.

Maybe consider this instead of screaming for Healing nerfs every damn patch!

Turtle_Bot

Healing had fine values even before it got hard nerfed, what was making it so stupidly OP was how it was being infinitely stacked by ball groups that would have 50k HPS ticking every second thanks to everyone in the group spamming vigor + radiating, which created insane lag and immortal ball groups that even sieges/bombers couldn't do anything against.

All they needed to do was make each HoT stack up to a maximum of twice on each person while battle spirit is active. That way it wouldn't affect PvE (who had at most 2 healers anyway) and it would have easily toned down the immortal ball groups while not nerfing it for everyone else...

At the very least, ball groups would have to lose a bunch of damage or utility to regain some of the healing this would have removed from them with this change, but nope, the player base wasn't listened to and healing got nerfed for everyone instead of just the ones causing problems with it.

Btw, this is what players were suggesting for fixing heals, not to outright nerf it like what ZoS did, and this is something ZoS can still do to fix healing without ruining it for everyone else. It would also be a lot easier than to try and implement a bunch of new buffs/debuffs or roles or something else that's going to change a lot of the core aspects of the game.

AdamLAD

We also need to address blocking and dodgerolling. Both are extremely overpowered. And incredibly cheap now with all the ways to lower there cost. Every single person sits on there back bar holding block and makes them close to unkillable with high HP, and all of the healing

StaticWave

Agree with everything @React said. I'm also a primarily solo player, and I'd like to point out that as a brawler stamsorc who invests everything into damage/sustain/max stats and only has 22k armor back bar, the Vampire's Undeath passive solved all my tankiness issues. That's how strong this passive is.

HiImRex

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't buy high MMR battlegrounds being a thing when I hear how long it takes to pop. Probably just playing whoever happens to be willing at the time.

Hate to break it to BG players, but if Cyrodiil is a small percentage of the player base; bgs are a smaller percentage of that.

I play alot of BGs and I know Xing in Cyrodil very well. On PC/NA there's about 20~ absolute bangers and at least 40 decent players of various types on any given day playing consistently with and against each other in BGs. Yea, alot of them couldn't X in Cyrodil because it's a different skill-set, but I will say brawling vs. some of the best straight up fighters in the most aids builds in no CP BGs is a very valid and in it's own way, top-end ESO PVP experience.

TechMaybeHic

HiImRex wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't buy high MMR battlegrounds being a thing when I hear how long it takes to pop. Probably just playing whoever happens to be willing at the time.

Hate to break it to BG players, but if Cyrodiil is a small percentage of the player base; bgs are a smaller percentage of that.

I play alot of BGs and I know Xing in Cyrodil very well. On PC/NA there's about 20~ absolute bangers and at least 40 decent players of various types on any given day playing consistently with and against each other in BGs. Yea, alot of them couldn't X in Cyrodil because it's a different skill-set, but I will say brawling vs. some of the best straight up fighters in the most aids builds in no CP BGs is a very valid and in it's own way, top-end ESO PVP experience.

It might be more I anticipated playing, but I still am not sure I'd balance around it. Proc but no CP is not anywhere else. I feel like that makes procs even more favored over attributes and class abilities. Then again; this is pretending their balancing has any sort of control or considers any context outside a spreadsheet, which seeing some stuff, I think the spreadsheet only applies when they want it to. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

edward_frigidhands

Cyro is not designed for 1vX playstyles.

Almost all of these suggestions will massively hurt the primary playstyle intended to be exhibited in Cyro, which is large battles and groups fighting each other.

Groups will die instantly to each other without room for counter-play or a place for organized offense or defense.

There is a bigger issue with these suggestions, they go against the primary spirit of the game which is to allow people to play the way they want. Caps on health, damage or healing is not the game design direction that encompasses the feel of where ESO should go in terms of their design goals.

There is already a system in place that limits mitigation to 50% and a Battle Spirit debuff that just about halves damage and healing in PvP as a balancing act.

I have seen your streams React, I have ever subscribed for a month with my Prime. You do not play Cyro as anything other than 1vX. Cyro is not a 1vX simulator, it is intended to be a War/Siege simulator with the intention being to exhibit large scale organized player vs player combat.

There is no room for small scale pvp or 1vX balance in that equation. There is already a PvP game for people who enjoy small scale combat and that is Battlegrounds. You cannot balance the game around small scale PvP combat or it will lead to massively limiting how people design and play their characters in PvP and that is against the spirit of the game's design goals.

I will however concede that Vampirism needs to stop being a staple for PvP combat but your suggestions are not the best way to address it.

You are a skilled veteran player React, but I don't think you fully understand the spirit behind Cyro combat and ESO's game design.

I also think you need to take a step back and understand that different people may enjoy different playstyles and they are all viable options in terms of contributions to large scale group play in Cyro.

GrigorijMalahevich

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Cyro is not designed for 1vX playstyles.



You are a skilled veteran player React, but I don't think you fully understand the spirit behind Cyro combat and ESO's game design.

.

@edward_frigidhands sir, you are making a very valid point, could you please be so kind and enlighten me, what is "the spirit behind Cyro combat and ESO's game design"?

Thank you very much in advance!

Best regards,
Grigorij

HiImRex

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Cyro is not designed for 1vX playstyles.

Almost all of these suggestions will massively hurt the primary playstyle intended to be exhibited in Cyro, which is large battles and groups fighting each other.

Groups will die instantly to each other without room for counter-play or a place for organized offense or defense.

There is a bigger issue with these suggestions, they go against the primary spirit of the game which is to allow people to play the way they want. Caps on health, damage or healing is not the game design direction that encompasses the feel of where ESO should go in terms of their design goals.

There is already a system in place that limits mitigation to 50% and a Battle Spirit debuff that just about halves damage and healing in PvP as a balancing act.

I have seen your streams React, I have ever subscribed for a month with my Prime. You do not play Cyro as anything other than 1vX. Cyro is not a 1vX simulator, it is intended to be a War/Siege simulator with the intention being to exhibit large scale organized player vs player combat.

There is no room for small scale pvp or 1vX balance in that equation. There is already a PvP game for people who enjoy small scale combat and that is Battlegrounds. You cannot balance the game around small scale PvP combat or it will lead to massively limiting how people design and play their characters in PvP and that is against the spirit of the game's design goals.

I will however concede that Vampirism needs to stop being a staple for PvP combat but your suggestions are not the best way to address it.

You are a skilled veteran player React, but I don't think you fully understand the spirit behind Cyro combat and ESO's game design.

I also think you need to take a step back and understand that different people may enjoy different playstyles and they are all viable options in terms of contributions to large scale group play in Cyro.

I’m interested to hear what specifically you mean here. There’s alot of general claims but nothing specific to back it up.

Are you involved in this “large scale” pvp you speak of? What are the metas that are prevalent right now in large scale? What sets / set ups are being used? How would the changes you oppose specifically make the large scale meta in cyrodil worse or impossible?

React

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Cyro is not designed for 1vX playstyles.

Almost all of these suggestions will massively hurt the primary playstyle intended to be exhibited in Cyro, which is large battles and groups fighting each other.

Groups will die instantly to each other without room for counter-play or a place for organized offense or defense.

Ed, this is just flat out untrue. Almost every single thing I suggested harshly impacts 1vX and small scale PVP far more than large scale PVP. That is the thing about nerfs to general mitigation/healing rather than things specific to large scale combat - they ALWAYS impact the 1 more than the X.

Can you please explain to me how these changes would result in "groups dying instantly without room for counter play or organized offense or defense"? I simply do not see it. Currently, "organized groups" flat out do not die. Ball groups can hardly kill one another, and almost never fully wipe off the map on their own. They remove all counterplay against their playstyle through the things I mentioned in the original post. Historically they did not always perform in this manner - they were able to be killed by greater opposing numbers, coordinated and talented small scale players, and other groups of the same format. This is simply not the case now.

Here is a screenshot demonstrating why the heal stacking specifically needs to be adjusted. Do you think this is a reasonable and balanced playstyle for large scale combat?

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

There is a bigger issue with these suggestions, they go against the primary spirit of the game which is to allow people to play the way they want. Caps on health, damage or healing is not the game design direction that encompasses the feel of where ESO should go in terms of their design goals.

There is already a system in place that limits mitigation to 50% and a Battle Spirit debuff that just about halves damage and healing in PvP as a balancing act.

I have seen your streams React, I have ever subscribed for a month with my Prime. You do not play Cyro as anything other than 1vX. Cyro is not a 1vX simulator, it is intended to be a War/Siege simulator with the intention being to exhibit large scale organized player vs player combat.

There is no room for small scale pvp or 1vX balance in that equation. There is already a PvP game for people who enjoy small scale combat and that is Battlegrounds. You cannot balance the game around small scale PvP combat or it will lead to massively limiting how people design and play their characters in PvP and that is against the spirit of the game's design goals.

Do you not see the irony in repetitively suggesting that ESO should be "play how you want", but then suggesting multiple times that "there is no room for small scale or 1vX in cyrodiil"? I even stated in this post that I have no issues with large scale PVP. I make a point to not complain on stream when I get chased by larger groups of players, because I agree that cyrodiil is a large scale format. But to suggest that small scale and solo PVP has no place and shouldn't matter? That is so ridiculously backwards.

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I also think you need to take a step back and understand that different people may enjoy different playstyles and they are all viable options in terms of contributions to large scale group play in Cyro.

I think you need to take a step back and acknowledge your own personal bias. You have admitted to me that you only play tanks, in every game, 100% of the time. Obviously all of these changes primarily target the overly-tanky/high healing/high HP meta that the majority of PVP players acknowledge is problematic right now. It is understandable that you would not agree with these changes due to your playstyle preferences, but to imply I am selfishly making these suggestions in order to benefit 1vX play is just dishonest and implies a lack of understanding of how the current meta would be impacted by them.

These suggestions do not benefit me as a solo player. The only suggestion in the upper half that doesn't specifically nerf me and my playstyle is the adjustment to high HP. Every single other suggestiong directly nerfs me. I use vampire undeath on every character, I use survival instincts and pains refuge on every character, I use healing CP nodes on certain builds, I use major evasion on my main (NB), and I get most of my best fights these days in keeps where I have the combat medic passive active (see my most recent YT video).

I am making these suggestions purely to help zenimax address the ridiculous PVP meta we've been in for a long time now. I wouldn't type a post like this to benefit myself, I typed it because I care about the game and I want to see it in a healthy and balanced state.

robertlabrie

If not said already, having 10 people trying to bash an unkillable DK to death while it burns all your siege and gets healed from DoTs isn't exactly a good time. That's way more annoying than trying to stop a cross-healing zerg ball because at least those can be disrupted.

React

Just wanted to drop a comment on this thread to bump it, in hopes that maybe some of the suggestions in the OP could be revisited for the Q3 QOL update this year. PvP has not been balanced in so long now, that everything in this post is still 100% relavent.

Namacc

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Yeah necro I know. With the recent discussions surrounding the state of pvp sparked by the battlegrounds brawl stream. I'm commenting here in the hopes the devs see this thread. Crazy that it's been 2 years since this post and yet (iirc) out of the balance changes suggested the only implemented change was a nerf to undeath. These changes suggested by @React are long overdue.

React

Namacc wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Yeah necro I know. With the recent discussions surrounding the state of pvp sparked by the battlegrounds brawl stream. I'm commenting here in the hopes the devs see this thread. Crazy that it's been 2 years since this post and yet (iirc) out of the balance changes suggested the only implemented change was a nerf to undeath. These changes suggested by @React are long overdue.

Some of the things from this post are still a problem, like HOT stacking, high HP, combat medic, major evasion, CP sustain. Things have changed a bit though, and there are certain things that have become problematic while there are others which are no longer an issue. I'll list a few differences below in the off chance this thread gets glanced at by someone looking for balance feedback.

In terms of group imbalances, the largest offenders right now are HOT stacking, shield stacking, HP stacking, and group buff set stacking.

1) HOT stacking - Groups are still running 10-12 echoing vigors, multiple radiating regens, and whatever other HOTs they can fit. The amount of healing per second from echoing vigor alone is likely in the range of 15k-20k healing per second when all of them are active. There is simply very little you can do to overcome healing like this, and nothing you can do to overcome healing like this combined with the other problems I'll mention.

Solution - Consider limiting the amount of stacks of same morph heal over times to two per ability, per person. So you could have two stacks of echoing vigor and two stacks of radiating regen on you, but not more than two of either skill.

2) Shield stacking & Max HP - With the introduction of arcanist and scribing, groups very frequently have upwards of 15k shields active on every single member at all times. Additionally, every member typically has around 40k+ base health. This pool of effective health combined with the aforementioned healstacking creates players that are simply impossible to kill without drastically more people (which isn't realistic with current population caps).

Solution - For shielding, adjust battlespirit to reduce shielding received from other players IN PVP, globablly. Perhaps consider reducing healing received from other players via battlespirit as well.

For max HP, start by trimming out all of the sources of unnecessary HP from PVP. Delete alyeid well buffs, delete the emperor HP buff. Next, change minor toughness to be a flat 1k or 2k HP instead of a 10% modifier. Finally, consider reducing the effectiveness of attribute points placed into HP via battlespirit.

3) Group Buff Sets - With modern buff/support sets, the stats that an organized 12 man group can achieve are absolutely absurd. Each member of a ball group is more stat dense than a solo emperor with every keep. We effectively have groups of 12 emperors running around with the benefits of group cross healing and shielding.

Solution - I'm not sure what the best way forward here is. I saw another user suggest that a new buff should be added through battlespirit which only allows you to receive 4 stat based buff set bonuses from other players, essentially converting all sets into a new category of buff that can only stack four times. I don't know how realistic that is or how easy to implement it is, though. Perhaps an easier solution would be to reduce the effectiveness of buff sets based on the number of players in your group (just in pvp), similar to how rallying cry is reduced in effectiveness the more players are in your group.

In terms of individual survivability, things are in a weird place. Overall, damage in the game is relatively high right now. It is nearly impossible to survive as a solo player because of the absurd damage you take from status effects, long duration dots, and proc sets. At the same time, individual healing is also very high and most players can hit themselves with 10-15k burst heals very consistently. It's an awkward situation where the damage of one player is often not adequate to overcome the healing of another player, while simultaneously the free damage from the aforementioned sources coming from more than one player is nearly impossible to deal with for a single player. It isn't fun to die to sources of damage that other players are getting for free, with no way to counterplay it. I'm not really sure where we need to go with individual survivability at the moment, but I do think the correct path forward is to address status effects and proc sets in pvp. It might make sense to remove the damage portion of status effects from PVP altogether, whilst allowing them to keep their buff/debuff portions so that they still have uses without being too oppressive. As for proc sets, I'd just like to see damaging proc sets in general be reigned in. I don't think it is good or healthy game design for your sets to be the highest or most consistent source of damage on your build. It does not encourage thoughtful or skillful gameplay.

Namacc

Completely agree, especially in regard to proc sets. I used to main Ravenwatch PC EU back when there was the no proc ruleset on 2h snb stamden (solo outnumbered or with a group). When procs returned, players that were not a threat before due to low dps and burst were now doing dps similar to high apm players on a stat-based damage build. Damage and healing should be from skills, not sets.