Will U35 HA lightning staffs bug be fixed in U36 ?

SPR_of_HA_community

In U35 HA of lightning staffs lose 1 hit of HA.

It did 4 hits per cast before, but is start to make 1 hit less.

There was no information about such change so we think it was a bug.

I make topic about this problem, but I get no answer.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616320/zos-u35-question-about-ha-builds-problems

ZOS, can you pls give any information about this problem ?

Will some thing change in U36 to fix it ?

PLS give US any answer. Do not ignore US pls. It is a really important problem for Lightning Staffs.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Adrikoth @ZOS_ConnorG @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam

SPR_of_HA_community

Can you PLS say any information about this problem ?

You change HA of lightning staffs mechanics in U35, you did not announce such change.

Is this in game bug or patch notes bug ?

Lose of 1 HA hit on lightning sets makes HA sets underperforming to META sets on both HA and LA.

With out lose of 1 HIT HA sets are +- comparable with META sets on HA and are worse on LA rotations.

So much this little change means.

Can you at least give any information about this problem from U35 at least now, including the fact that U36 already starts on PTS ?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Adrikoth @ZOS_ConnorG @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam

It looks like mockery to players of lightning staffs.

Lightning staffs were underperforming for all this years. You nerf our sets.

Can we at least get information about changes you make to it in U35 ?

You did not even announce lose of 1 HA hit. Is it a bug of patch notes or in game bug ?

Can you pls give any answer to this simple question ?

SPR_of_HA_community

ZOS, I start to feel like I am completely ignored.

Can you pls give me some answer ?

You talk about some love to HA in U35, "better for US", the same time you nerf HA builds to the ground, you make our favorite skills and sets PVE only (against monsters), you delete our unique HA buffs - (moltan armaments).

We do not feel any better.

Now I try to get an answer OK. You destroy HA builds. You nerf our damage, you make our skills PVE only and remove HA builds from PVP.

OK - but can you atleast give any information about U35 bug ?

Why even 1 HA hit just dissapears?

You did not even announce such change. Where is it ? Why do now HA of lightning staffs do only 3 hits ? It have to be 4 - you did not wright that you change it. Players wright you about this problem on start of U35 PTS.

Now U36 PTS starts - can we as a players get any information at least about U35 bug ?

Stop ignore me pls. Can you tell us some thing about this problem ?

Necrotech_Master

as far as im aware it was another undocumented nerf (like the caluurion nerf)

it was mentioned in the U35 pts many many many times and was never acknowledged

also unsure if resto staff was affected by this change too

my guess they did this because they changed the animation duration of heavy attack from 2.1 sec to 1.8 sec

SPR_of_HA_community

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

as far as im aware it was another undocumented nerf (like the caluurion nerf)

it was mentioned in the U35 pts many many many times and was never acknowledged

also unsure if resto staff was affected by this change too

my guess they did this because they changed the animation duration of heavy attack from 2.1 sec to 1.8 sec

Restro staff have 3 hits before.

Lightning staffs have 4 - and it make it feels different and have different scaling from sets.

On lightning staff in rotation skill+HA - we can do the same number of skills as before in the same time. So we only see number of hits decrease - so time/speed of attack did not change. Even if it was some changes - it is same buged and in rotation have no speed increase.

It is bad because on not HA sets you can do more DPS now, than on HA sets. And HA sets are not good in any thing else.

If developers change some thing - it would be good if at leas such change be documented.

They change core HA of lightning staff mechanics. So such change is important.

I hope they at least say some thing about it.

Zezin

@ZOS_Kevin at this point isn't this thread just spam?

SPR_of_HA_community

I do not think, that topic with old bug that is ignored for 1 patch already - is a spam.

I think it is important question that needs an answer.

Necrotech_Master

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

I do not think, that topic with old bug that is ignored for 1 patch already - is a spam.

I think it is important question that needs an answer.

the problem is that i dont think this is a bug, it was an intentional change with U35 that was just never mentioned in the patch notes

the caluurion set nerf was also never mentioned in the patch notes, but nobody is calling it a bug because of that

SPR_of_HA_community

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

I do not think, that topic with old bug that is ignored for 1 patch already - is a spam.

I think it is important question that needs an answer.

the problem is that i dont think this is a bug, it was an intentional change with U35 that was just never mentioned in the patch notes

the caluurion set nerf was also never mentioned in the patch notes, but nobody is calling it a bug because of that

If it was intentional change - the change text must be in patch notes. But it is no such text.

If it was made on purpose - OK - but can we at least get text in patch note about this change ?

If it is a bug - can we get some attention to it and fix ?

Now this change is completely ignored and we even can not get information - what is buged - patch notes or HA of lightning staffs.

stevenyaub16_ESO

They won't do anything about it. If they add another tick they will have to nerf lightning heavy damage to balance it. So that's just too much work for a pointless fix.

SPR_of_HA_community

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

They won't do anything about it. If they add another tick they will have to nerf lightning heavy damage to balance it. So that's just too much work for a pointless fix.

It is not pointless fix, because sets damage scaling depends on it. HA of lightning staff and HA sets are underperforming and - if it is not a bug - can we get it as documented change ?

stevenyaub16_ESO

How is it underperforming, it's in a balanced spot right now and the Devs know it. Adding another tick would make it overperform so they would have to lower the ticks by 25% to compensate. As I said. Unnecessary work.

SPR_of_HA_community

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

How is it underperforming, it's in a balanced spot right now and the Devs know it. Adding another tick would make it overperform so they would have to lower the ticks by 25% to compensate. As I said. Unnecessary work.

HA sets do on HA less damage than META LA sets. The same time HA sets can not effective do LA, how are they not underperforming ?

I do not care now about other players point of view, but if 1 hit of lightning staff HA dissapear - it is change of its core mechanic.

Such change must be documented in patch notes or if it is a bug - must be fixed.

You can not just make ninja fixes in core battle mechanics of weapons and not even wright about such changes.

It must be documented or fixed.

remosito

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

How is it underperforming, it's in a balanced spot right now and the Devs know it. Adding another tick would make it overperform so they would have to lower the ticks by 25% to compensate. As I said. Unnecessary work.

HA sets do on HA less damage than META LA sets. The same time HA sets can not effective do LA, how are they not underperforming ?

I do not care now about other players point of view, but if 1 hit of lightning staff HA dissapear - it is change of its core mechanic.

Such change must be documented in patch notes or if it is a bug - must be fixed.

You can not just make ninja fixes in core battle mechanics of weapons and not even wright about such changes.

It must be documented or fixed.

if HA is underperforming the solution is to increase empower bonus damage and/or set bonus. and not add the extra tick back to lightning. Latter will just make lightning HA stronger. Former all HAs. Makes no sense to have lightning outperform all other HA by that much.

As for

"You can not just make ninja fixes in core battle mechanics of weapons and not even wright about such changes.
It must be documented or fixed."

I might be mistaken, but I am pretty sure they are no laws international or national anywhere that state such things are forbidden.

So they absolutely can....

SPR_of_HA_community

remosito wrote: »

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

How is it underperforming, it's in a balanced spot right now and the Devs know it. Adding another tick would make it overperform so they would have to lower the ticks by 25% to compensate. As I said. Unnecessary work.

HA sets do on HA less damage than META LA sets. The same time HA sets can not effective do LA, how are they not underperforming ?

I do not care now about other players point of view, but if 1 hit of lightning staff HA dissapear - it is change of its core mechanic.

Such change must be documented in patch notes or if it is a bug - must be fixed.

You can not just make ninja fixes in core battle mechanics of weapons and not even wright about such changes.

It must be documented or fixed.

if HA is underperforming the solution is to increase empower bonus damage and/or set bonus. and not add the extra tick back to lightning. Latter will just make lightning HA stronger. Former all HAs. Makes no sense to have lightning outperform all other HA by that much.

As for

"You can not just make ninja fixes in core battle mechanics of weapons and not even wright about such changes.
It must be documented or fixed."

I might be mistaken, but I am pretty sure they are no laws international or national anywhere that state such things are forbidden.

So they absolutely can....

The damage scaling from HA sets is underperforming.

HA is little underperforming on lightning staffs too.

Yes they phisical can do what they want,and they do it - but what is a reason in patch notes if the information in them and on server is different ?

What do you as a tester test on PTS if you even do not know how it must work ? Some changes bugs - are not posted, and they only "fix" those part of this bugs - that they want ?

It looks more likely like it is to draw balance for some fed players - because skills do not work like it is written, or like they work before.

This is pseudo visibility of PTS test server, balance and patch notes than.
Nothing more.

What do you test - if you have no real data of changes and how it have to work ? If some thing is not documented and work different - it is a bug.

If it is not - what and how do you test than ? )

If bugs are ignored - what is a reason to do it ?

remosito

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

What do you test - if you have no real data of changes and how it have to work ? If some thing is not documented and work different - it is a bug.

If it is not - what and how do you test than ? )

If bugs are ignored - what is a reason to do it ?

if you can't handle that a change here or there falls through the cracks and is not documented....you probably should not participate in pts testing...

[snip] happens...

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

MidniteOwl1913

remosito wrote: »

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

What do you test - if you have no real data of changes and how it have to work ? If some thing is not documented and work different - it is a bug.

If it is not - what and how do you test than ? )

If bugs are ignored - what is a reason to do it ?

if you can't handle that a change here or there falls through the cracks and is not documented....you probably should not participate in pts testing...

[snip] happens...

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

On the other hand, if things falling thru the cracks isn't a big deal, why not just admit that? How hard is to say we decided to reduce the damage but the comments didn't make it into the notes. Here's the information.

FrancisCrawford

@ZOS_GinaBruno,

I think this is a big enough deal that you should sort it out for us. A lot of fuss was made in your patch notes about Empower changes, Empower's addition to Oakensoul, and so on.

A large nerf to lightning heavy attacks, if intended, should be disclosed. If the nerf is going to be reverted, that should be disclosed too. For example, I farmed some heavy attack sets during the Undaunted event, and now feel foolish for having done so.

Thanks!

SPR_of_HA_community

At least skill text and changes in patch notes and on server have to be the same.

At max - changes that make lightning staffs more playable.

In current version HA sets are hardly underperforming.

The same time if Undaunted Infiltrator is only PVE set now - it has very bad DPS stats and very low DPS in PVE the same time.

And if just think about it - how LA sets can be better on HA than HA sets ?

They are not good on LA, they are now underperforming even on HA.

How do you balance thingth ?

Zezin

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

At least skill text and changes in patch notes and on server have to be the same.

At max - changes that make lightning staffs more playable.

In current version HA sets are hardly underperforming.

The same time if Undaunted Infiltrator is only PVE set now - it has very bad DPS stats and very low DPS in PVE the same time.

And if just think about it - how LA sets can be better on HA than HA sets ?

They are not good on LA, they are now underperforming even on HA.

How do you balance thingth ?

Noble duelist, sergeant and storm master are all better than infiltrator. using Nobles + sergeant can net you 85k+ damage on some classes and at least 75k+ on all classes as long as you know how to build your character, in fact I don't think HA builds were as strong as they currently are before U35 sure you lost one tick of lightning heavy but in exchange you got a shorter cast time(which probably made the lost tick a non issue as you're heavy attacking faster) and a whopping 100%(from + 40% to +80%) increase to empower, I will say this again this thread is spam and unnecessary.

Lalothen

Zezin wrote: »

in fact I don't think HA builds were as strong as they currently are before U35

This ignores the fact that the dummy has been significantly buffed with U35. You need to take U34 parses and add around 18% (that was the low-ball percentage that got floated in ESOU during the PTS period) to yield a proper comparison. ZOS really muddied the waters - intentionally, I think - by adding extra buffs to the dummy at the same time they were making significant combat changes.

Taking an apples-to-apples approach (as much as possible), DK HA builds are now weaker overall because of the loss of the unique buff from Molten, and other two-bar staff builds basically had the loss of Crushing Wall offset by the strengthening of Empower. Given general the flattening of LA damage + the loss of Empower impacting it, it's highly debatable whether they're actually putting out more DPS than before.

NOTE: The strongest HA build in U35 - the two-pet OakenSorc - is weaker than my two-bar 5/2/2/1/1 MagDK was in U34 after accounting for the dummy changes. I'd posit it's no stronger than my two-bar HA petsorc was pre-hybridisation, but I don't keep parse data that far back so I can only go based on recollection.

sure you lost one tick of lightning heavy but in exchange you got a shorter cast time(which probably made the lost tick a non issue as you're heavy attacking faster)

This is incorrect; the lightning staff channel still covers 2 basic attack GCDs (1800ms give or take) and the remaining two tics are spread further apart to account for the loss of the third. The loss of a tic during that period constitutes a DPS loss of around 16.7% given the uneven damage split between the fully-charged hit and the channeled tics.

and a whopping 100%(from + 40% to +80%) increase to empower, I will say this again this thread is spam and unnecessary.

See previous comments.

Beyond that, this thread is necessary to get an answer to the legitimate question of whether the loss of the tic was intended or not. It's fine if you're not interested in getting that answer; you've got the option to scroll on past like the rest of us.

SPR_of_HA_community

No official answer was given for a really big period of time.

Problem is ignored - [snip]

It is the answer too.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[edited for bashing]

Zezin

Lalothen wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

in fact I don't think HA builds were as strong as they currently are before U35

This ignores the fact that the dummy has been significantly buffed with U35. You need to take U34 parses and add around 18% (that was the low-ball percentage that got floated in ESOU during the PTS period) to yield a proper comparison. ZOS really muddied the waters - intentionally, I think - by adding extra buffs to the dummy at the same time they were making significant combat changes.

Taking an apples-to-apples approach (as much as possible), DK HA builds are now weaker overall because of the loss of the unique buff from Molten, and other two-bar staff builds basically had the loss of Crushing Wall offset by the strengthening of Empower. Given general the flattening of LA damage + the loss of Empower impacting it, it's highly debatable whether they're actually putting out more DPS than before.

NOTE: The strongest HA build in U35 - the two-pet OakenSorc - is weaker than my two-bar 5/2/2/1/1 MagDK was in U34 after accounting for the dummy changes. I'd posit it's no stronger than my two-bar HA petsorc was pre-hybridisation, but I don't keep parse data that far back so I can only go based on recollection.

sure you lost one tick of lightning heavy but in exchange you got a shorter cast time(which probably made the lost tick a non issue as you're heavy attacking faster)

This is incorrect; the lightning staff channel still covers 2 basic attack GCDs (1800ms give or take) and the remaining two tics are spread further apart to account for the loss of the third. The loss of a tic during that period constitutes a DPS loss of around 16.7% given the uneven damage split between the fully-charged hit and the channeled tics.

and a whopping 100%(from + 40% to +80%) increase to empower, I will say this again this thread is spam and unnecessary.

See previous comments.

Beyond that, this thread is necessary to get an answer to the legitimate question of whether the loss of the tic was intended or not. It's fine if you're not interested in getting that answer; you've got the option to scroll on past like the rest of us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TRumS6n3vQ

SPR_of_HA_community

And what ? Before DPS nerfs (dummy buff on incoming DPS) - it was the same 100k + ?

We lose about 25% DPS - monsters get 10% HP nerf.

So for us - it was 15% nerf.

Yes now any build can do HA effectivly, so you can get HA build on buff sets that do about 95k+ DPS, but who cares ? But really some people do and it is good, because it is good alternative game play.

But for us:
We liked some sets, some game style - sets are hardly underperforming, not buff, the same time I do not like "buff" game play. At least sets have to be buffed - because only PVE set with activation and bad PVE stats +/- that universal set like Undaunted Infiltrator was - feels really bad.

The same time - LA game play overpromotion in PVP now.

You had set that was not best - but good in all. Now you have set that is worst in all. "Nice" balanced.

The same time serjant set is better, work in both PVE and PVP (even including overnerf of HA in PVP) - how it ls it balanced like that ???

It is like to make 2 sets that give 10 HP and nothing more and set that gives 1000 HP, and some other stats ... .
---
The same time - I just see some picture.
May be it is really useless builds or just "photoshop" - I do not even know where you find it

So - and what ? ))) At least you can give a link to watch on it.

What is (Snip) by the way ? ))) Editing for bashing - ok - may be too rude but what is (snip) ? )))
---
It is the same as templar spammable change.

From good looking skill it nows look like ... the only weapon I would really use it would be : It is not even look as an attack - its animation look like you try to do with opponent some thing like this:

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://aqua-rmnt.com/wp-content/themes/aqua_rmnt_v5/cache/b4633b601_280x280.png&imgrefurl=https://aqua-rmnt.com/santehnika/unitaz-rakovina/chto-delat-esli-zasorilsya-unitaz.html&docid=EUFmq1umKcsEhM&tbnid=kT35q2GAGo8SmM&vet=1&source=sh/x/im

It looks just stupid ! Last hit of an attack. Just think about it, how you will really attack like this ?

18+ serious looking game, but attack like in 5+ cartoons.

Whyyy ????

ssewallb14_ESO

HA Oakensorc can do 100k as well, on one bar. If it reaches 110-115 it's going to be BiS in certain fights, the prog players will QQ about heavy attacks like they did in Morrowind, and it will get nuked in typical ZoS fashion.

I would leave well enough alone.

Lalothen

Zezin wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TRumS6n3vQ

That's a nice parse, definitely stronger than OakenSorc - in a dummy situation at least.

Now let's adjust that DPS output for the buffs to the U35 dummy. I'll use the conservative estimate of 18% first:

(101,344 /118)*100 = 85,884

Now the upper estimate of 22%:

(101,344/122)*100 = 83,068

Let's compare that to an HA parse from November 2021:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7456522/#Comment_7456522

Unfortunately the Relequen parse video in that comment has been deleted, but presumably it was over 90k given Succuby's comments.

Here's the Infallible DPS though:



So there we have it: the MagSorc dummy parse you linked is weaker in adjusted DPS terms - even using the conservative estimate of 18% - than Succuby's non-optimal Infallible DK parse from November 2021.

Thanks for corroborating my point.

SPR_of_HA_community

It is not a problem for me to post old information. It was gathered for test by some HA players - we have direct links to it.

https://youtu.be/JU8RQpVh5Ss
https://youtu.be/-8UzHNctEUs
https://youtu.be/G4jg6B9c39A

In compare in current patch:

https://youtu.be/dFjyBbbbUBE
https://youtu.be/1kqsbOU7jmM

Can look for some older videos too, may be it is some thing starting from 2019 year or may be even before, but more tests were on 3kk dummy.

The same it was compare to some LA not popular builds that did not change.

So result can be calculated mathematically

SPR_of_HA_community

HA builds were not ever most effective - it was build optimal for a lot of different tasks, to make a lot of content with out gear changes.

It was good but some different builds were better in some aspects.

HA -1.0:
Undaunted infiltrator+Aether
HA-2.0:
Relequin+storm master (better stats and DPS, but problems with first activations)

HA-3-0:
Do not know about that content - guild stop playing.

SPR_of_HA_community

It was not really to important i think .. deleted

SPR_of_HA_community

(Changed)

But all I want to say - game have some problems - you will not normally balance it if skill text and real work are different.

If you make a change and forget about change in game mechanick - you will get a ton of problems with balancing a lot of sets in the future.

Because if some thing was balanced and as example some sets work on dots hit, dots start hit 2 times slower - all sets that was based on it becomes 2 times worse.

So for a long period of time people who liked that sets will not really like you. With just a small change.

With a lot of such change ... a lot of people will be dissapointed in you. That is all.

The same for skills/sets/race/CP system and etc.

Necrotech_Master

there is someone in our vet trial group who has run a heavy attack mag sorc build that could hit 90k+ dps on the current dummy, and still could hit high numbers in actual content

they were using oaken + storm master + sergeant + 1pc slimecraw for the crit bonus

only skills they were using was the deadric prey, unstable wall of storms, bound aegis, volatile familiar and twilight tormentor, and greater storm atro for the ult

HA builds are definitely still perfectly viable

(the only place i know where oakensoul cannot be used is the cloudrest trial, because of the bar swap mechanic as it can still affect an oakensoul user and the end result is it would wipe the group because they couldnt bar swap)