New Mara's balm "fix" does nothing at all to address the issue with this set

katorga

Holycannoli wrote: »

Yes it needs a cooldown.

Just like Nocturnal's Ploy got a cooldown bump to 15 seconds. It needed it too and now nobody even talks about the set anymore.

nobody uses it either. total waste of database space.

hrothbern

ToRelax wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

nm

MrLasagna wrote: »

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

So i have to go with specific a build just to counter a set?
Isn't that the definition of overpowered?

No
It is the inherent character of combat and warfare, just like RL, where you seek asymetrical advantages.
An effective army is organised and in combat coordinated so that it has several options to engage with differing asymetries.

An effective PVP group is organised so that it has also several options at hand. A bit of specialising and coordinating.
Approaching PVP as solo players "doing their thing" will always be inferior to coordinated groups.

Rock-Paper-Scissors

That's all very nice, but a set which forces you to build your entire character around trying to counter it is still overpowered.

Not every player needs to rebuild their entire character, but all should know and be aware in the heat of the fight which of their abilities feed more health than deliver damage.
Some players will have fun to make a more dedicated anti-Mara's build.

When it is about solo Mara's trolls I would not bother too much.

In my opinion the criterium on how and how much to tweak the set should be based on how well countering goes in tactics and used abilities against groups of players with Mara's as elementary part of their group combat power.

But Mara's as a counter against everybody and their dog negative effects stacking is fine with me.

Something that forces you to adapt by playing a certain (less powerful) way is fine. Something that forces you to completely change your build around to engage at all isn't. Especially so for item sets, since unlike abilities, the vast amount of sets in the game makes it impossible to build around all of them at the same time.

ToRelax,
This set is also in my opinion too powerfull and therefore too disruptive for what we have together.
Tweaking it, to make it less disruptive has however the risk that the set becomes a nothingburger not adding color & diversity.

If we ignore here also the Mara's troll tanks and keep our focus at the bigger picture

On a gliding scale: on the one end for a newbie low CP PVPer it offers protection (for a new setting where unlike PVE opponents really move and sticky dots/effects overwhelm) and on the other end, the strong, well equiped, experienced and coordinating players, who can also dish out lots of damage and proc effects.

My take is that
#1. we need some time to see what players all over think out, try out, to counter. You cannot tune this on the drawing table and neither can you in PTS (not the same playerbase as everyday Cyro incl the less experienced)
#2. consider tweaking down the heal per removed negative effect or introduce a very short cooldown (the 15 second heal when more then 6 negative effects is ok for me, the duration ok-ish)
#3. consider another commonly used method in ESO and that is adding a negative effect for the user (like with the Gaze of Sithis, Thrassian Stranglers etc)

Ad option #3 (which can be combined with #2) could for example be to cap the Spell-Weapon Damage (to hurt the damage procs) or cap the damage multipliers (buffs) of the user to a level that hurts the strong players and not the more casual, less experienced in Cyro.
The floor up and the ceiling more diversity.

ToRelax

I'd be very careful with negative effects on the wearer if accordingly powerful positive effects aren't guaranteed. It would be very frustrating to have your own gear work against you when your build is already being countered.

ForumBully

Even with the cooldown this will be a very strong set, possibly the strongest defensive set, but that's fine. Something is going to be the strongest, so that's not an issue. Without a cooldown, it was absurd, and that is an issue.

hrothbern

ToRelax wrote: »

I'd be very careful with negative effects on the wearer if accordingly powerful positive effects aren't guaranteed. It would be very frustrating to have your own gear work against you when your build is already being countered.

Yes,
That's why I think we need real practice in real Cyro first with the set as it is.
Otherwise a hastely negative effect solution could also be a recipe for a nothingburger.

The negative effect of the Ring of the Pale Order (4% loss per ally on the base 20%) seems, as I get it, quite ok for our community at large.
It can be done.

FrankonPC

A lot of discussion on how bad the set will be without knowing what the healing numbers are getting changed to. An increase in the heal with a 1 second gcd could still make it the best defensive set in the game. A full purge every 15 seconds with a hot and a burst heal is incredibly strong imo.

DrSlaughtr

They are adding a 1 second cooldown but I believe they also said they are INCREASING THE HEALING WHICH MEANS THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE UNDERLYING ISSUE.

Ahem.

Sorry. Excuse the outburst.

Any set that gives you free healing every time you are attacked is not a very good way to promote parity in PVP. We literally had a set that did basically this same thing. Crimson Twilight, remember that? Remember how everyone hated it except for the small subset of players that find it absolutely hilarious to bog down every combat marker with multi-minute pointless battles where one person could eat damage from full groups (or more)?

This is actually worse, because unlike those Crimson builds which were almost exclusively actual tanks, Maras Balm is working wonderful on DPS spec'd builds due to the way this game continues to reward a Master-Of-All buildout for DKs, Templars, Necros and YES NOW WARDENS.

By the way, don't argue with me about that. "My (class) was nerfed." Whatever nerds might have hit your class are completely outweighed by the ability the current build gives you to maximize armor, healing and damage without sacrificing much of anything. DKs are the best at this, but all four are doing pretty darn well right now using this set while still ravaging everyone else who is either playing a more ACTUALY DPS focused build (NBs and Sorcs) or other classes who don't want to run Maras Balm because some people don't actually like to be immortal and have stalemate matches against other immortals.

Please reduce the heal with the cooldown and encourage people actually play the game for themselves.

- End Sour Grapes.

React

FrankonPC wrote: »

A lot of discussion on how bad the set will be without knowing what the healing numbers are getting changed to. An increase in the heal with a 1 second gcd could still make it the best defensive set in the game. A full purge every 15 seconds with a hot and a burst heal is incredibly strong imo.

Yeah. I am extremely confident that if mara's is reverted to the original heal value, given a 1s cooldown, and the purge is left untouched - it will still be the strongest defensive set in the game by a good margin.

If they decide to follow through with buffing the purge aspect, the set will continue to be broken and overperforming - the reason will just shift from the lack of a cooldown, to an overperforming purge.

I mean, with the original heal value/1s cooldown/15s purge - this set is literally wyrd tree and robes of the hist combined. It is actually better than robes of the hist, because in general it is easier and more common to proc the mara's HOT requirement than it is to be hit with a disabling effect specifically like hist requires. It is better than wyrd tree, because the purge is actually also a burst heal.

I really, truly hope they don't make a mistake AGAIN with this set. We've been through months of feedback now. People from the forums and the PTS are tired of being ignored about it. Players ingame are tired of fighting it.

Navarril

React wrote: »

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop.

Another streamer whining about ANYTHING that kills them (or anythign that prevents them from stomping everyone else). You guys will nerf the entire game as long as you don't die to another player. Fact.

React

Navarril wrote: »

React wrote: »

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop.

Another streamer whining about ANYTHING that kills them (or anythign that prevents them from stomping everyone else). You guys will nerf the entire game as long as you don't die to another player. Fact.

What a hilarious take.

You know what else I find funny? Not even a single person who has come to defend mara's balm has provided any actual statistical evidence that the set is somehow balanced. There have been no examples provided, no comparisons made, and no valid arguments created as to why this set is fine. You can point to personal bias if you'd like, but please provide a valid argument as to why I'm wrong and you're right about the topic of this thread.

I did play this game for well over 10k hours before coming a streamer. Becoming a streamer has no bearing whatsoever on my opinions on balance.

Navarril wrote: »

deflorate wrote: »

I find that the people who complain don't know what's happening or haven't played pvp for a long time

I find that people who are dismissive of other's issues are generally ***. Just sayin'.

I found this above quote you put in another thread to be very ironic right now.

The7thLettter

Navarril wrote: »

React wrote: »

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop.

Another streamer whining about ANYTHING that kills them (or anythign that prevents them from stomping everyone else). You guys will nerf the entire game as long as you don't die to another player. Fact.

This is an obvious lack of knowledge of how the set works and shows you have zero idea of what you’re saying. The set doesn’t provide anything that will help kill the streamer. Before making silly comments have some idea of what you’re talking about.

FrankonPC

Navarril wrote: »

React wrote: »

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop.

Another streamer whining about ANYTHING that kills them (or anythign that prevents them from stomping everyone else). You guys will nerf the entire game as long as you don't die to another player. Fact.

Ad hominems are not a good defense of a set, nor are they helpful in discussing them.

Also, players should be the reason they don't die in pvp, not sets. This is what we're discussing.

FrankonPC

React wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

A lot of discussion on how bad the set will be without knowing what the healing numbers are getting changed to. An increase in the heal with a 1 second gcd could still make it the best defensive set in the game. A full purge every 15 seconds with a hot and a burst heal is incredibly strong imo.

Yeah. I am extremely confident that if mara's is reverted to the original heal value, given a 1s cooldown, and the purge is left untouched - it will still be the strongest defensive set in the game by a good margin.

If they decide to follow through with buffing the purge aspect, the set will continue to be broken and overperforming - the reason will just shift from the lack of a cooldown, to an overperforming purge.

I mean, with the original heal value/1s cooldown/15s purge - this set is literally wyrd tree and robes of the hist combined. It is actually better than robes of the hist, because in general it is easier and more common to proc the mara's HOT requirement than it is to be hit with a disabling effect specifically like hist requires. It is better than wyrd tree, because the purge is actually also a burst heal.

I really, truly hope they don't make a mistake AGAIN with this set. We've been through months of feedback now. People from the forums and the PTS are tired of being ignored about it. Players ingame are tired of fighting it.

Yep agreed. Original heal value and a 1 second gcd is still the best defensive set in the game imo, which is why these complaints about "nerfs" are too soon. That adjustment would be better in 1 v 1s, bgs, small scale fights than what it currently is. It wouldn't be better severely outnumbered.

I think a 1500 ish heal with the gcd is a good place to adjust it(from 2100), with a monitor on it for future adjustments imo.

ForumBully

Navarril wrote: »

React wrote: »

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop.

Another streamer whining about ANYTHING that kills them (or anythign that prevents them from stomping everyone else). You guys will nerf the entire game as long as you don't die to another player. Fact.

People defending a crutch is always sadder than those saying the crutch shouldn't exist. Sounds more like you want to keep the broken sets to help yourself survive against these "streamers".
Good players will use broken sets while being honest about the imbalance the sets create. Bad players will use broken sets and be dishonest about the negative effect on combat.

FrankonPC

ForumBully wrote: »

Navarril wrote: »

React wrote: »

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop.

Another streamer whining about ANYTHING that kills them (or anythign that prevents them from stomping everyone else). You guys will nerf the entire game as long as you don't die to another player. Fact.

People defending a crutch is always sadder than those saying the crutch shouldn't exist. Sounds more like you want to keep the broken sets to help yourself survive against these "streamers".
Good players will use broken sets while being honest about the imbalance the sets create. Bad players will use broken sets and be dishonest about the negative effect on combat.

The funny thing is that this set is effective for everyone. 1 v 1s, 1 v x etc. It basically is a stalemate creator in all formats and I can say personally it has allowed me to stalemate multiple 1 v 6+s that I wouldn't have been able to wearing any other set. It helps solo streamers as much as it helps everyone else, but solo players are still advocating for an adjustment because it's not healthy for pvp.

Crazy that what is being said lines up with actual intentions sometimes lol.