New Mara's balm "fix" does nothing at all to address the issue with this set

Firstmep

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The 1 second cooldown is exactly what it needs, thank you!
Hopefully the (re)buffed healing doesn't go too far.
Edit: reading some of the other comments in this thread, I still have concerns about the purge proc being overtuned. A full heal every 15 seconds is too much. The amount of negative effects that you can get a heal from might need a cap.

I think it's fine. 15 seconds is an eternity in pvp, if you cant kill someone in that time, than that's not Maras fault.

In no cp there are some very oppressive dot proc builds out there still, that have little counterplay for classes without a purge, so hopefully this set could be that without being too op.

React

Firstmep wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The 1 second cooldown is exactly what it needs, thank you!
Hopefully the (re)buffed healing doesn't go too far.
Edit: reading some of the other comments in this thread, I still have concerns about the purge proc being overtuned. A full heal every 15 seconds is too much. The amount of negative effects that you can get a heal from might need a cap.

I think it's fine. 15 seconds is an eternity in pvp, if you cant kill someone in that time, than that's not Maras fault.

In no cp there are some very oppressive dot proc builds out there still, that have little counterplay for classes without a purge, so hopefully this set could be that without being too op.

15 seconds is not an eternity in pvp. No class regains an ult within 15 seconds. Even NB with some of the highest ult gen through the potion passive will not regain an incap after it is purged by maras, before maras is off cooldown.

While the primary issue with maras has been the lack of a CD on the heal, it is important we do not downplay the effectiveness of the purge. This is one of the only sources of a FULL character purge in the entire game. When this purge procs, you are not only healing to full and removing all negative effects, but you are also completely negating everything that was done to you in the previous few (sometimes many) global cooldowns.

In a 1v1 or Xv1 scenario, this set will consistently and without fail negate your opponents burst and heal you to full health. It is extremely powerful, and miles above every other defensive set in the game *EVEN IF THEY ADD A 1S COOLDOWN TO IT AND LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE AS IT IS RIGHT NOW*.

The only no-cp environment where this set would work is battlegrounds. The other environments still have procs disabled.

Decimus

Sadly Mara's Balm is 100% necessary right now to counter the over tuned DoT damage from multiple sources in noCP, such as status procs (with or without Serpent's Disdain, which is a whole issue on its own), Maarselok, Talons, Acid Spray etc.

Sets and DoTs that were meta last patch and never got adjusted.

Just a simple Burning+Poisoned is enough to outdamage a Vigor from 5-6k+ weapon damage build, leaving you stuck spamming burst heals behind LOS in order to survive. Against one person.


If Mara's Balm is to be nerfed further (right now it accounts for less healing than Hist Sap, around 10-20% of self healing per BG) I'd rather see it made more of a counter to DoTs than debuffs in general (things like Templar jabs/sweeps don't need to heal someone multiple times as they reapply the snare) - so perhaps Mara's Balm should heal every time a DoT ticks instead and not proc when CC breaking, rolling out of a root etc etc.


This is of course the Battlegrounds perspective, if BGs had CPs enabled I think survivability would be at an acceptable level even without sets like Mara's.

maxjapank

Mara's Balm:

(2 items) Adds 1487 Armor
(3 items) Adds 424 Critical Resistance
(4 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken
(5 items) When a negative effect is removed from you, restore 2111 Health. When you take damage and have 6 or more negative effects, cleanse all negative effects. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.


Wyrd Tree's Blessing:

(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you cast a Magicka ability, you remove all negative effects from yourself. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

There is already a set in the game that gives you a purge every 15 seconds. So does Mara's Balm even need a heal after cleansing all negative effects? Having a constant heal on a 1 second cooldown as you propose is pretty powerful as is. But your idea to "trigger a larger heal when the cleanse occurs" is really unnecessary, and it is arguable if there should be a heal here at all.

blktauna

Just saw a youtube vid of a guy in Maras after the 'adjustment'. Approx a dozen other players were unable to lower the health bar to below (generously) 75%.

This is stupid.

You can't kill anyone in PVP, What is the reasoning here. Like what was the desired outcome?

hrothbern

blktauna wrote: »

Just saw a youtube vid of a guy in Maras after the 'adjustment'. Approx a dozen other players were unable to lower the health bar to below (generously) 75%.

This is stupid.

You can't kill anyone in PVP, What is the reasoning here. Like what was the desired outcome?

"Approx a dozen other players were unable to lower the health bar to below (generously) 75%"

A lot of low DPS ticks/negative effects is just feeding Maras.

This remembers me on Malubeth getting introduced back in 2016
Low DPS players swarming around the Malubeth player, always enough of them within the 8 meter... (feeding Malubeth)

Maras does certainly need tweaking,
but attacking with more damage per tick or just raw plain damage spamming (like frags or even HAs) would already lessen and stop feeding the monster.

Rock, scissor, paper

Troodon80

maxjapank wrote: »

There is already a set in the game that gives you a purge every 15 seconds. So does Mara's Balm even need a heal after cleansing all negative effects? Having a constant heal on a 1 second cooldown as you propose is pretty powerful as is. But your idea to "trigger a larger heal when the cleanse occurs" is really unnecessary, and it is arguable if there should be a heal here at all.

Really shows the imbalance of these sets. If they keep the heal with the cleanse, one would think Wyrd Tree's Blessing would also get a heal or something else which brings its power ratio up, right? We already have over a hundred sets which are viewed as useless. Rhetorical question: why don't we see them being brought into line with what's getting released every couple months, or have those new sets being in line with existing sets?

Casdha

Well, I've never been one to min max and folks don't like the way I buck the system with hating rotations and whatnot but even I saw this coming way back on post #2 on the subject in PTS.

I'm just sad I only got one agree for it

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We've recently had to remove a few non-constructive comments. Please remember that while it’s alright to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable on our forums. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

blktauna

hrothbern wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Just saw a youtube vid of a guy in Maras after the 'adjustment'. Approx a dozen other players were unable to lower the health bar to below (generously) 75%.

This is stupid.

You can't kill anyone in PVP, What is the reasoning here. Like what was the desired outcome?

"Approx a dozen other players were unable to lower the health bar to below (generously) 75%"

A lot of low DPS ticks/negative effects is just feeding Maras.

This remembers me on Malubeth getting introduced back in 2016
Low DPS players swarming around the Malubeth player, always enough of them within the 8 meter... (feeding Malubeth)

Maras does certainly need tweaking,
but attacking with more damage per tick or just raw plain damage spamming (like frags or even HAs) would already lessen and stop feeding the monster.

Rock, scissor, paper

We already know its raw damage only. I went in with my no proc stamblade setup on Wed.. No poison no weapon ticks, nothing but the damage I landed. @6k raw damage beating on one of these guys had zero effect. The rest of my guild was raining raw damage. Not a dip.

That's simply stupid.

hrothbern

blktauna wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Just saw a youtube vid of a guy in Maras after the 'adjustment'. Approx a dozen other players were unable to lower the health bar to below (generously) 75%.

This is stupid.

You can't kill anyone in PVP, What is the reasoning here. Like what was the desired outcome?

"Approx a dozen other players were unable to lower the health bar to below (generously) 75%"

A lot of low DPS ticks/negative effects is just feeding Maras.

This remembers me on Malubeth getting introduced back in 2016
Low DPS players swarming around the Malubeth player, always enough of them within the 8 meter... (feeding Malubeth)

Maras does certainly need tweaking,
but attacking with more damage per tick or just raw plain damage spamming (like frags or even HAs) would already lessen and stop feeding the monster.

Rock, scissor, paper

We already know its raw damage only. I went in with my no proc stamblade setup on Wed.. No poison no weapon ticks, nothing but the damage I landed. @6k raw damage beating on one of these guys had zero effect. The rest of my guild was raining raw damage. Not a dip.

That's simply stupid.

As long as there are too many other players feeding a Maras player with negative effects it can be that the raw damage of players who do understand is not enough to overcome the heals from Maras.

Maras is a wasted set when there are no negative effects.
No magic there.

Eternalscourge1

React wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The 1 second cooldown is exactly what it needs, thank you!
Hopefully the (re)buffed healing doesn't go too far.
Edit: reading some of the other comments in this thread, I still have concerns about the purge proc being overtuned. A full heal every 15 seconds is too much. The amount of negative effects that you can get a heal from might need a cap.

I think it's fine. 15 seconds is an eternity in pvp, if you cant kill someone in that time, than that's not Maras fault.

In no cp there are some very oppressive dot proc builds out there still, that have little counterplay for classes without a purge, so hopefully this set could be that without being too op.

15 seconds is not an eternity in pvp. No class regains an ult within 15 seconds. Even NB with some of the highest ult gen through the potion passive will not regain an incap after it is purged by maras, before maras is off cooldown.

While the primary issue with maras has been the lack of a CD on the heal, it is important we do not downplay the effectiveness of the purge. This is one of the only sources of a FULL character purge in the entire game. When this purge procs, you are not only healing to full and removing all negative effects, but you are also completely negating everything that was done to you in the previous few (sometimes many) global cooldowns.

In a 1v1 or Xv1 scenario, this set will consistently and without fail negate your opponents burst and heal you to full health. It is extremely powerful, and miles above every other defensive set in the game *EVEN IF THEY ADD A 1S COOLDOWN TO IT AND LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE AS IT IS RIGHT NOW*.

The only no-cp environment where this set would work is battlegrounds. The other environments still have procs disabled.

I was for the 1sec cooldown but you guys will never be satisfied...nerf everything!!!!!!...now I kinda hope they change their mind on the cooldown as well because clearly even when they listen fans are never satisfied

Eternalscourge1

Decimus wrote: »

Sadly Mara's Balm is 100% necessary right now to counter the over tuned DoT damage from multiple sources in noCP, such as status procs (with or without Serpent's Disdain, which is a whole issue on its own), Maarselok, Talons, Acid Spray etc.

Sets and DoTs that were meta last patch and never got adjusted.

Just a simple Burning+Poisoned is enough to outdamage a Vigor from 5-6k+ weapon damage build, leaving you stuck spamming burst heals behind LOS in order to survive. Against one person.


If Mara's Balm is to be nerfed further (right now it accounts for less healing than Hist Sap, around 10-20% of self healing per BG) I'd rather see it made more of a counter to DoTs than debuffs in general (things like Templar jabs/sweeps don't need to heal someone multiple times as they reapply the snare) - so perhaps Mara's Balm should heal every time a DoT ticks instead and not proc when CC breaking, rolling out of a root etc etc.


This is of course the Battlegrounds perspective, if BGs had CPs enabled I think survivability would be at an acceptable level even without sets like Mara's.

Maras isn't OP in BGs, it's strong, but this nerf will eliminate it from BG usage I feel.

React

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The 1 second cooldown is exactly what it needs, thank you!
Hopefully the (re)buffed healing doesn't go too far.
Edit: reading some of the other comments in this thread, I still have concerns about the purge proc being overtuned. A full heal every 15 seconds is too much. The amount of negative effects that you can get a heal from might need a cap.

I think it's fine. 15 seconds is an eternity in pvp, if you cant kill someone in that time, than that's not Maras fault.

In no cp there are some very oppressive dot proc builds out there still, that have little counterplay for classes without a purge, so hopefully this set could be that without being too op.

15 seconds is not an eternity in pvp. No class regains an ult within 15 seconds. Even NB with some of the highest ult gen through the potion passive will not regain an incap after it is purged by maras, before maras is off cooldown.

While the primary issue with maras has been the lack of a CD on the heal, it is important we do not downplay the effectiveness of the purge. This is one of the only sources of a FULL character purge in the entire game. When this purge procs, you are not only healing to full and removing all negative effects, but you are also completely negating everything that was done to you in the previous few (sometimes many) global cooldowns.

In a 1v1 or Xv1 scenario, this set will consistently and without fail negate your opponents burst and heal you to full health. It is extremely powerful, and miles above every other defensive set in the game *EVEN IF THEY ADD A 1S COOLDOWN TO IT AND LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE AS IT IS RIGHT NOW*.

The only no-cp environment where this set would work is battlegrounds. The other environments still have procs disabled.

I was for the 1sec cooldown but you guys will never be satisfied...nerf everything!!!!!!...now I kinda hope they change their mind on the cooldown as well because clearly even when they listen fans are never satisfied

So you're telling me that a 1k heal every second and a full cleanse + burst heal every 15 seconds isn't strong enough for you to run this set?

I just don't know how to argue with people defending this set.

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop. It is more broken that a set that was bugged and had to be hotfixed (undertaker). If they took the current version (951 base heal, 500 +scaling in pvp), gave it a 1s cooldown, and left everything else the same - it would still be the strongest defensive set in the game.

People aren't complaining for no reason. We want this set to not be so ridiculously strong that we can't touch a player using it. To be clear, I play a full direct damage single target burst NB that is often hitting tanky players for 20k spectral bows. I have about a 30% success rate for being able to kill maras balm users. The cooldown on the heal doesn't change that, because what counters me is the purge + burst heal they get *which comes off cooldown faster than I can build the cheapest ult in the game*.

They shouldn't revert the healing or buff the purge on this set. All they should do is add a one second cooldown, and leave it as is. It'll have the beat purge in the entire game, it'll have a steady 500hps hot, and it will have a burst heal every purge proc. It doesn't need to do any more than that.

DizzyMac

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

ToRelax

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

That's anything but outside the box.

ForumBully

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

Well, let's hear exactly what your magic is, and then let's hear the rationale why everyone in PvP should have to build specifically toward countering one set.

IZZEFlameLash

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

Your solution is to wear it yourself and stack heals on top of that to make your opppnent give up?

Rowjoh

2 questions:

what is the actual heal value/stat of this set while it is in use ? is it like a constant 3-5k heal every second or something...

why is ZoS flying in the face of very detailed user information and all the facts, yet is continuing to ignore how massively overpowered this set is ?

React

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

Are you talking about plaguebreak?

Eternalscourge1

React wrote: »

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The 1 second cooldown is exactly what it needs, thank you!
Hopefully the (re)buffed healing doesn't go too far.
Edit: reading some of the other comments in this thread, I still have concerns about the purge proc being overtuned. A full heal every 15 seconds is too much. The amount of negative effects that you can get a heal from might need a cap.

I think it's fine. 15 seconds is an eternity in pvp, if you cant kill someone in that time, than that's not Maras fault.

In no cp there are some very oppressive dot proc builds out there still, that have little counterplay for classes without a purge, so hopefully this set could be that without being too op.

15 seconds is not an eternity in pvp. No class regains an ult within 15 seconds. Even NB with some of the highest ult gen through the potion passive will not regain an incap after it is purged by maras, before maras is off cooldown.

While the primary issue with maras has been the lack of a CD on the heal, it is important we do not downplay the effectiveness of the purge. This is one of the only sources of a FULL character purge in the entire game. When this purge procs, you are not only healing to full and removing all negative effects, but you are also completely negating everything that was done to you in the previous few (sometimes many) global cooldowns.

In a 1v1 or Xv1 scenario, this set will consistently and without fail negate your opponents burst and heal you to full health. It is extremely powerful, and miles above every other defensive set in the game *EVEN IF THEY ADD A 1S COOLDOWN TO IT AND LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE AS IT IS RIGHT NOW*.

The only no-cp environment where this set would work is battlegrounds. The other environments still have procs disabled.

I was for the 1sec cooldown but you guys will never be satisfied...nerf everything!!!!!!...now I kinda hope they change their mind on the cooldown as well because clearly even when they listen fans are never satisfied

So you're telling me that a 1k heal every second and a full cleanse + burst heal every 15 seconds isn't strong enough for you to run this set?

I just don't know how to argue with people defending this set.

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop. It is more broken that a set that was bugged and had to be hotfixed (undertaker). If they took the current version (951 base heal, 500 +scaling in pvp), gave it a 1s cooldown, and left everything else the same - it would still be the strongest defensive set in the game.

People aren't complaining for no reason. We want this set to not be so ridiculously strong that we can't touch a player using it. To be clear, I play a full direct damage single target burst NB that is often hitting tanky players for 20k spectral bows. I have about a 30% success rate for being able to kill maras balm users. The cooldown on the heal doesn't change that, because what counters me is the purge + burst heal they get *which comes off cooldown faster than I can build the cheapest ult in the game*.

They shouldn't revert the healing or buff the purge on this set. All they should do is add a one second cooldown, and leave it as is. It'll have the beat purge in the entire game, it'll have a steady 500hps hot, and it will have a burst heal every purge proc. It doesn't need to do any more than that.

Not with my current set up, no. It's a downgrade once the 1sec cooldown hits. I'll use it til then and swap back to my golded out build. Currently as is, maras is the first new set I've put on in over a year. At 50k plus health, battalion defender still gives 3k HP a second, and cyros crest gives 10k every four seconds. Leeching 1500/s, harbingers 2500+ per second

React

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The 1 second cooldown is exactly what it needs, thank you!
Hopefully the (re)buffed healing doesn't go too far.
Edit: reading some of the other comments in this thread, I still have concerns about the purge proc being overtuned. A full heal every 15 seconds is too much. The amount of negative effects that you can get a heal from might need a cap.

I think it's fine. 15 seconds is an eternity in pvp, if you cant kill someone in that time, than that's not Maras fault.

In no cp there are some very oppressive dot proc builds out there still, that have little counterplay for classes without a purge, so hopefully this set could be that without being too op.

15 seconds is not an eternity in pvp. No class regains an ult within 15 seconds. Even NB with some of the highest ult gen through the potion passive will not regain an incap after it is purged by maras, before maras is off cooldown.

While the primary issue with maras has been the lack of a CD on the heal, it is important we do not downplay the effectiveness of the purge. This is one of the only sources of a FULL character purge in the entire game. When this purge procs, you are not only healing to full and removing all negative effects, but you are also completely negating everything that was done to you in the previous few (sometimes many) global cooldowns.

In a 1v1 or Xv1 scenario, this set will consistently and without fail negate your opponents burst and heal you to full health. It is extremely powerful, and miles above every other defensive set in the game *EVEN IF THEY ADD A 1S COOLDOWN TO IT AND LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE AS IT IS RIGHT NOW*.

The only no-cp environment where this set would work is battlegrounds. The other environments still have procs disabled.

I was for the 1sec cooldown but you guys will never be satisfied...nerf everything!!!!!!...now I kinda hope they change their mind on the cooldown as well because clearly even when they listen fans are never satisfied

So you're telling me that a 1k heal every second and a full cleanse + burst heal every 15 seconds isn't strong enough for you to run this set?

I just don't know how to argue with people defending this set.

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop. It is more broken that a set that was bugged and had to be hotfixed (undertaker). If they took the current version (951 base heal, 500 +scaling in pvp), gave it a 1s cooldown, and left everything else the same - it would still be the strongest defensive set in the game.

People aren't complaining for no reason. We want this set to not be so ridiculously strong that we can't touch a player using it. To be clear, I play a full direct damage single target burst NB that is often hitting tanky players for 20k spectral bows. I have about a 30% success rate for being able to kill maras balm users. The cooldown on the heal doesn't change that, because what counters me is the purge + burst heal they get *which comes off cooldown faster than I can build the cheapest ult in the game*.

They shouldn't revert the healing or buff the purge on this set. All they should do is add a one second cooldown, and leave it as is. It'll have the beat purge in the entire game, it'll have a steady 500hps hot, and it will have a burst heal every purge proc. It doesn't need to do any more than that.

Not with my current set up, no. It's a downgrade once the 1sec cooldown hits. I'll use it til then and swap back to my golded out build. Currently as is, maras is the first new set I've put on in over a year. At 50k plus health, battalion defender still gives 3k HP a second, and cyros crest gives 10k every four seconds. Leeching 1500/s, harbingers 2500+ per second

Ah, so you're playing a pure tank and defending this set. Got it. Thanks.

DizzyMac

React wrote: »

Are you talking about plaguebreak?

plaguebreak alone wont do it. its part of the puzzle tho

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Your solution is to wear it yourself and stack heals on top of that to make your opppnent give up?

nope. i dont use it. and no wearing them out doesnt work.

Dangranma_Burgrukgad

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

So i have to go with specific a build just to counter a set?
Isn't that the definition of overpowered?

hrothbern

nm

MrLasagna wrote: »

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

So i have to go with specific a build just to counter a set?
Isn't that the definition of overpowered?

No
It is the inherent character of combat and warfare, just like RL, where you seek asymetrical advantages.
An effective army is organised and in combat coordinated so that it has several options to engage with differing asymetries.

An effective PVP group is organised so that it has also several options at hand. A bit of specialising and coordinating.
Approaching PVP as solo players "doing their thing" will always be inferior to coordinated groups.

Rock-Paper-Scissors

ToRelax

hrothbern wrote: »

nm

MrLasagna wrote: »

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

So i have to go with specific a build just to counter a set?
Isn't that the definition of overpowered?

No
It is the inherent character of combat and warfare, just like RL, where you seek asymetrical advantages.
An effective army is organised and in combat coordinated so that it has several options to engage with differing asymetries.

An effective PVP group is organised so that it has also several options at hand. A bit of specialising and coordinating.
Approaching PVP as solo players "doing their thing" will always be inferior to coordinated groups.

Rock-Paper-Scissors

That's all very nice, but a set which forces you to build your entire character around trying to counter it is still overpowered.

hrothbern

ToRelax wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

nm

MrLasagna wrote: »

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

So i have to go with specific a build just to counter a set?
Isn't that the definition of overpowered?

No
It is the inherent character of combat and warfare, just like RL, where you seek asymetrical advantages.
An effective army is organised and in combat coordinated so that it has several options to engage with differing asymetries.

An effective PVP group is organised so that it has also several options at hand. A bit of specialising and coordinating.
Approaching PVP as solo players "doing their thing" will always be inferior to coordinated groups.

Rock-Paper-Scissors

That's all very nice, but a set which forces you to build your entire character around trying to counter it is still overpowered.

Not every player needs to rebuild their entire character, but all should know and be aware in the heat of the fight which of their abilities feed more health than deliver damage.
Some players will have fun to make a more dedicated anti-Mara's build.

When it is about solo Mara's trolls I would not bother too much.

In my opinion the criterium on how and how much to tweak the set should be based on how well countering goes in tactics and used abilities against groups of players with Mara's as elementary part of their group combat power.

But Mara's as a counter against everybody and their dog negative effects stacking is fine with me.

Eternalscourge1

React wrote: »

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The 1 second cooldown is exactly what it needs, thank you!
Hopefully the (re)buffed healing doesn't go too far.
Edit: reading some of the other comments in this thread, I still have concerns about the purge proc being overtuned. A full heal every 15 seconds is too much. The amount of negative effects that you can get a heal from might need a cap.

I think it's fine. 15 seconds is an eternity in pvp, if you cant kill someone in that time, than that's not Maras fault.

In no cp there are some very oppressive dot proc builds out there still, that have little counterplay for classes without a purge, so hopefully this set could be that without being too op.

15 seconds is not an eternity in pvp. No class regains an ult within 15 seconds. Even NB with some of the highest ult gen through the potion passive will not regain an incap after it is purged by maras, before maras is off cooldown.

While the primary issue with maras has been the lack of a CD on the heal, it is important we do not downplay the effectiveness of the purge. This is one of the only sources of a FULL character purge in the entire game. When this purge procs, you are not only healing to full and removing all negative effects, but you are also completely negating everything that was done to you in the previous few (sometimes many) global cooldowns.

In a 1v1 or Xv1 scenario, this set will consistently and without fail negate your opponents burst and heal you to full health. It is extremely powerful, and miles above every other defensive set in the game *EVEN IF THEY ADD A 1S COOLDOWN TO IT AND LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE AS IT IS RIGHT NOW*.

The only no-cp environment where this set would work is battlegrounds. The other environments still have procs disabled.

I was for the 1sec cooldown but you guys will never be satisfied...nerf everything!!!!!!...now I kinda hope they change their mind on the cooldown as well because clearly even when they listen fans are never satisfied

So you're telling me that a 1k heal every second and a full cleanse + burst heal every 15 seconds isn't strong enough for you to run this set?

I just don't know how to argue with people defending this set.

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop. It is more broken that a set that was bugged and had to be hotfixed (undertaker). If they took the current version (951 base heal, 500 +scaling in pvp), gave it a 1s cooldown, and left everything else the same - it would still be the strongest defensive set in the game.

People aren't complaining for no reason. We want this set to not be so ridiculously strong that we can't touch a player using it. To be clear, I play a full direct damage single target burst NB that is often hitting tanky players for 20k spectral bows. I have about a 30% success rate for being able to kill maras balm users. The cooldown on the heal doesn't change that, because what counters me is the purge + burst heal they get *which comes off cooldown faster than I can build the cheapest ult in the game*.

They shouldn't revert the healing or buff the purge on this set. All they should do is add a one second cooldown, and leave it as is. It'll have the beat purge in the entire game, it'll have a steady 500hps hot, and it will have a burst heal every purge proc. It doesn't need to do any more than that.

Not with my current set up, no. It's a downgrade once the 1sec cooldown hits. I'll use it til then and swap back to my golded out build. Currently as is, maras is the first new set I've put on in over a year. At 50k plus health, battalion defender still gives 3k HP a second, and cyros crest gives 10k every four seconds. Leeching 1500/s, harbingers 2500+ per second

Ah, so you're playing a pure tank and defending this set. Got it. Thanks.

No actually I'm a harbinger tank and I'd probably own you in cyrodil or a BG (or a 1v1 if you're a good enough DPS to kill yourself lol) on console. If you're on Xbox I'm game anytime

ToRelax

hrothbern wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

nm

MrLasagna wrote: »

DizzyMac wrote: »

people seriously need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to combating mara's.. you are either going to feed the beast, or with the right gear and setup you will use the beast against its wearer. its funny to watch someone in mara's cop 17k dmg in cyro cos their own set works against them...

take your time, think outside the box !!

So i have to go with specific a build just to counter a set?
Isn't that the definition of overpowered?

No
It is the inherent character of combat and warfare, just like RL, where you seek asymetrical advantages.
An effective army is organised and in combat coordinated so that it has several options to engage with differing asymetries.

An effective PVP group is organised so that it has also several options at hand. A bit of specialising and coordinating.
Approaching PVP as solo players "doing their thing" will always be inferior to coordinated groups.

Rock-Paper-Scissors

That's all very nice, but a set which forces you to build your entire character around trying to counter it is still overpowered.

Not every player needs to rebuild their entire character, but all should know and be aware in the heat of the fight which of their abilities feed more health than deliver damage.
Some players will have fun to make a more dedicated anti-Mara's build.

When it is about solo Mara's trolls I would not bother too much.

In my opinion the criterium on how and how much to tweak the set should be based on how well countering goes in tactics and used abilities against groups of players with Mara's as elementary part of their group combat power.

But Mara's as a counter against everybody and their dog negative effects stacking is fine with me.

Something that forces you to adapt by playing a certain (less powerful) way is fine. Something that forces you to completely change your build around to engage at all isn't. Especially so for item sets, since unlike abilities, the vast amount of sets in the game makes it impossible to build around all of them at the same time.

ForumBully

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The 1 second cooldown is exactly what it needs, thank you!
Hopefully the (re)buffed healing doesn't go too far.
Edit: reading some of the other comments in this thread, I still have concerns about the purge proc being overtuned. A full heal every 15 seconds is too much. The amount of negative effects that you can get a heal from might need a cap.

I think it's fine. 15 seconds is an eternity in pvp, if you cant kill someone in that time, than that's not Maras fault.

In no cp there are some very oppressive dot proc builds out there still, that have little counterplay for classes without a purge, so hopefully this set could be that without being too op.

15 seconds is not an eternity in pvp. No class regains an ult within 15 seconds. Even NB with some of the highest ult gen through the potion passive will not regain an incap after it is purged by maras, before maras is off cooldown.

While the primary issue with maras has been the lack of a CD on the heal, it is important we do not downplay the effectiveness of the purge. This is one of the only sources of a FULL character purge in the entire game. When this purge procs, you are not only healing to full and removing all negative effects, but you are also completely negating everything that was done to you in the previous few (sometimes many) global cooldowns.

In a 1v1 or Xv1 scenario, this set will consistently and without fail negate your opponents burst and heal you to full health. It is extremely powerful, and miles above every other defensive set in the game *EVEN IF THEY ADD A 1S COOLDOWN TO IT AND LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE AS IT IS RIGHT NOW*.

The only no-cp environment where this set would work is battlegrounds. The other environments still have procs disabled.

I was for the 1sec cooldown but you guys will never be satisfied...nerf everything!!!!!!...now I kinda hope they change their mind on the cooldown as well because clearly even when they listen fans are never satisfied

So you're telling me that a 1k heal every second and a full cleanse + burst heal every 15 seconds isn't strong enough for you to run this set?

I just don't know how to argue with people defending this set.

It is the most blatantly broken defensive set that has ever been in the game. Full stop. It is more broken that a set that was bugged and had to be hotfixed (undertaker). If they took the current version (951 base heal, 500 +scaling in pvp), gave it a 1s cooldown, and left everything else the same - it would still be the strongest defensive set in the game.

People aren't complaining for no reason. We want this set to not be so ridiculously strong that we can't touch a player using it. To be clear, I play a full direct damage single target burst NB that is often hitting tanky players for 20k spectral bows. I have about a 30% success rate for being able to kill maras balm users. The cooldown on the heal doesn't change that, because what counters me is the purge + burst heal they get *which comes off cooldown faster than I can build the cheapest ult in the game*.

They shouldn't revert the healing or buff the purge on this set. All they should do is add a one second cooldown, and leave it as is. It'll have the beat purge in the entire game, it'll have a steady 500hps hot, and it will have a burst heal every purge proc. It doesn't need to do any more than that.

Not with my current set up, no. It's a downgrade once the 1sec cooldown hits. I'll use it til then and swap back to my golded out build. Currently as is, maras is the first new set I've put on in over a year. At 50k plus health, battalion defender still gives 3k HP a second, and cyros crest gives 10k every four seconds. Leeching 1500/s, harbingers 2500+ per second

Ah, so you're playing a pure tank and defending this set. Got it. Thanks.

No actually I'm a harbinger tank and I'd probably own you in cyrodil or a BG (or a 1v1 if you're a good enough DPS to kill yourself lol) on console. If you're on Xbox I'm game anytime

This is why we need an LOL reaction