ZOS must consider to stop speed runner of the dungeon

ElderSmitter

kargen27 wrote: »

To stop the speed runners just make it so there is no daily reward for completing the dungeon if you don't kill everything on the way.

Why do you think ZOS has Achievements for Dungeons. It caters to all playstyles. You just named an achievement. Killing all encounters within a certain time frame. I cannot tell you how many times as a Tank i push a group thru a dungeon. I like Speed. I also take into considerations the ongoing buffs some healers and DPS have going that they do not want to run out by stopping. To Stop and meander in a Dungeon is meant for premade groups. Lot of moving parts to consider.

wolfie1.0.

Not sure why we needed to necro an old thread for this...

svendf

It´s possible to control these bad behaviours and that rule even apply to ZOS. High ranking Mmo´s are exactly doing that to avoid tensions, toxicity and bad behaviour inside their community.

I don´t know what kind of a effect all of this other things have on the end-game community (Im not part of that anymore), for that I have to ask some of those I have on my friends list. I wouldn´t be surprised if it do have an negative effect on end-game and the free flowe into those guild with open spots. It all starts at the bottom and are carried all the way to the end/top.

The Mmo part of ESO is missing Im afraid

MidniteOwl1913

I'm leveling a new toon. Last night I was in Fungal Grotto 1 as DPS. I and the tank were under level 25. The other DPS was over 2200. I don't what the level of the healer was because I never saw them. I loaded into the dungeon and it was just the 3 of us. The "healer" was always ahead. At some point about halfway through the "Activity Completed" message popped up. The 3 of us finished the dungeon. The "healer" dragged a large trash mob behind them making it hard for lower-leveled players (without a healer!!), but we managed what was left of it, and I got the skill point.

I imagine the "healer" thought a baby dungeon no one needs a healer (although they didn't hang around to find out). Well sometimes there are baby players in those baby dungeons and would be nice to have the support role actually do what they promised.

This isn't any fun. It wasn't fun for the 3 of us, and I imagine "healer" had any fun either. I don't think this is a ZOS issue. At its heart it a problem with players who sign up for group content and then go on to use the other players to help them get whatever reward they are after. It's selfish. Pure and simple. And it's clear that some of the players who engage in this behavior know that they are making group content all about them and don't even care. That I think is the worst of it for me. It's sad.

Maybe we should have voted to kick. I thought about it, but it's a short dungeon and I guess it was just easier to get on with it.

RicAlmighty

Threads like these are what happens when you have the majority of your player base playing an MMO like a single player game. They treat other players as though they were NPCs and complain when they do not follow "their rules" for how things should be done. Zenimax has not really done anything to dissuade this behaviour, so I suppose they must bear some of the blame.

The keyword in "Random Dungeon" is Random. This applies to both the dungeon choice itself as well as the caliber of the other players. If you choose this method and go in solo, then you forfeit all right to complain about how the other three players run the dungeon. If you wish to play by a specific set of rules, then get a pre-made group of 4 together and choose "Random Dungeon" that way. You will still get your crystals and xp, and you can play exactly the way you want without those pesky "NPC" players getting in your way. Problems solved.

boi_anachronism_

I mean ima say this right now, the overwhelming majority of players i run into in randoms are speed runners. I run vet dugeon randoms mostly to mitigate the issue with running into new players since a vet speed run is really nbd for me. With normals i typically just ask before i bolt through a dungeon if someone needs a quest or something or if they really mind, i always let the majority rule and do it how they want. That said ive also walked total newbies through normal dungeons explaining mechanics along the way as we went, pointed out chests and loot, reminded them to turn in their quests and given them my drops at the end. As far as end game? We got multiple toons and are expected to have over a dozen different gear sets at our disposal for high level content. That requires a metric ton of transmutes. If i took a half hr with every dungeon run id be there until the next day. whenever possible i do randoms with guildmates but thats not always possible. I dont que with a fake role though. Never have, never will.

Something i do want to point out: in my time play ive found all the responsibility of "do you mind if we play this dungeon x way or do you need x quest" falls on the speed runners where as i can count on one hand the amount of times ive seen a group message saying "do you guys mind if we do a slower run?". Communication cant always be one sided, no one is psychic.

AlterBlika

Group finder could really use a rework. Personally, if I could do random dungeon solo (or incomplete premade group) and get the reward, I would never play it with a group. I go there for transmutes like many others, not for the story or achievements. I think I get transmutes for running a random dungeon, not for doing it with random people (although sometimes it's a bigger challenge lol)

Braffin

No need to change the game and kill off freedom of choice in dungeon runs just because some players can't handle the freedom we're granted.

It's not an issue for most players tho, only those which deny communication while pretending their way to play would be the only rightful way are affected.

Regarding newer and learning players, there is an easy solution for that: Either double the amount if transmutes in vet dungeons or cut them in half in normal mode. Then most skilled players will run vet again.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about behavior in a dungeon.

Thank you for your understanding

ruengdet2515

MalEducado wrote: »

i love to play with speed runners

YES! This is it. Extremely love fast run.

MidniteOwl1913

Maybe what we need is a new role/category. Jack-of-all-trades speeding authorized. So no set roles, no expectations, just 4 totally random people who just want to get through the content quickly. Still get the random dungeon finder perks.

People who want to go fast can go fast, pull trash mobs, skip mini-bosses and that would all be fine because everyone involved had consented to that style of play. No roles, no fakers, win, win.

And people like me who want to take a more measured pace could do that without annoying anyone or being annoyed by them.

petanko

The funniest thing about "speed"runners is their faces when the final boss is bugged due to skipping. Yeah, I can't see those, but it's so easy to imagine.

Soarora

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Maybe what we need is a new role/category. Jack-of-all-trades speeding authorized. So no set roles, no expectations, just 4 totally random people who just want to get through the content quickly. Still get the random dungeon finder perks.

People who want to go fast can go fast, pull trash mobs, skip mini-bosses and that would all be fine because everyone involved had consented to that style of play. No roles, no fakers, win, win.

And people like me who want to take a more measured pace could do that without annoying anyone or being annoyed by them.

I see the no role thing tossed around sometimes but I think people fail to realize they mean support-or-DPS… for the support roles. Having 2 healers, 2 dps or 3 tanks 1 healer will not make the run go any better, only worse.

Braffin

Soarora wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Maybe what we need is a new role/category. Jack-of-all-trades speeding authorized. So no set roles, no expectations, just 4 totally random people who just want to get through the content quickly. Still get the random dungeon finder perks.

People who want to go fast can go fast, pull trash mobs, skip mini-bosses and that would all be fine because everyone involved had consented to that style of play. No roles, no fakers, win, win.

And people like me who want to take a more measured pace could do that without annoying anyone or being annoyed by them.

I see the no role thing tossed around sometimes but I think people fail to realize they mean support-or-DPS… for the support roles. Having 2 healers, 2 dps or 3 tanks 1 healer will not make the run go any better, only worse.

I think an option for runs without roles could work just fine if done right.
Something like either pick a role and get paired as usual or queue without role and get paired with 3 other non-role players.

Sure, theoretically you could end up in a group consisting of 4 full-tanks. But I think it will be 4 dds more than 90% of the time, because people playing a role would list with that role anyways.

Soarora

Braffin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Maybe what we need is a new role/category. Jack-of-all-trades speeding authorized. So no set roles, no expectations, just 4 totally random people who just want to get through the content quickly. Still get the random dungeon finder perks.

People who want to go fast can go fast, pull trash mobs, skip mini-bosses and that would all be fine because everyone involved had consented to that style of play. No roles, no fakers, win, win.

And people like me who want to take a more measured pace could do that without annoying anyone or being annoyed by them.

I see the no role thing tossed around sometimes but I think people fail to realize they mean support-or-DPS… for the support roles. Having 2 healers, 2 dps or 3 tanks 1 healer will not make the run go any better, only worse.

I think an option for runs without roles could work just fine if done right.
Something like either pick a role and get paired as usual or queue without role and get paired with 3 other non-role players.

Sure, theoretically you could end up in a group consisting of 4 full-tanks. But I think it will be 4 dds more than 90% of the time, because people playing a role would list with that role anyways.

Good point.

me_ming

I seriously wish vet dungeons including non-DLC ones were harder and more challenging. So I basically started doing pledges the moment I hit level 45. Back when you can only group with characters on your own alliance, no group finder, someone has to literally travel to the dungeon within your group so everyone can port in and if someone decides to bail in the middle of the pledge/dungeon you better have someone on your friend's/guild's list willing to help you complete that, or someone has to go back to town and find someone to replace. So many people today complain about the group finder being broke, and yes while ZOS needs to fix that system, it's definitely better than what we had before-- or what we didn't have.

So anyway back to my story, I started my very first vet pledge at vet 1, grouped with vet 3 and 4 (if I remember it correctly). I basically leveled my main character to level 50 in Cyrodiil without any gear set, I was just wearing things I got from where ever. So I have no idea what set pieces were or how to get them. Basically the first time I was in a vet pledge (Wayrest Sewers) I had no clue what I was doing, no food, no potion, no gear sets, nothing. I was a Templar-Healer, and spamming shards and breathe of life. I was a sword and shield + resto healer. It was tough, and my group mates knew from the start that I was a noob. But instead of bailing out, kicking me out or flaming me, they were very helpful. Gave me vet 1 food, waited for me to talk to NPCs when I needed too (I had the quest) and gave me advice at the end. It was this very moment when I actually wanted to learn more about dungeon mechanics and since then was more of a PvE player than a PvP. You don't get that anymore these days. So many people say that the ESO community is a nice community, yet they have no idea how truly helpful this community was. Before there was normal and vet mode, there was only VET mode. And I kid you not, not many people rush dungeons then. Majority of the time, people will wait, if they see someone is doing the quest they will wait for you. If they see someone who doesn't know the mechanic people will take the time to explain. And this was even before the "ready check" was available. Players would actually stop, and explain everything to you on group chat. Yes, I know this was not true 100% of the time, there are times when players would just bail out or be toxic, but majority of the time I was doing vet pledges I get people who were willing to wait, teach and help each other. Also just FYI people were so much more willing to actually stay and complete the dungeon even if it took hours. When Imperial City DLC launched, vWGT and vICP was THE hardest dungeons in the game. My first time in ICP took my group and I nearly 6 hours to complete it. And despite being exhausted, we endured. Oh yeah, also before we didn't have the portable bankers, merchants, etc so ummm if you run out of repair kits or potions and food, someone had to go back to town to get those things.

So right now, I am honestly just disappointed when I try to level my alts and do randoms when no one cares anymore. They just speed through everything. And more often than not, I think that if these dungeons were harder like how they used too before, those who speed through can't just run head first to the boss and not get nuked. So many new players in this game are honestly illiterate to their role and builds because they don't learn. They simply follow the what they see in guides or what is the meta and think that they are good because they can kill anything in dungeons by simply passing through them. No one times their ults anymore, very few tanks learn how to group ads anymore, very few healers know how to position properly so everyone gets the buff they are suppose to provide. It just feels like a game where group play is not important. I hate doing my daily randoms because of this. I hate doing non-DLC dungeons because aside from the fact that I have to wait for a long time in queue, when I am finally in a group, it's just a speed through, it's not fun, people running their own way and no one is actually playing as a group. I hate doing the DLC dungeons (I still have and want to complete) because I know that no one is patient enough to endure and more importantly teach me mechanics. This community has indeed changed. It has this solo mentality where you just do what you want to do and don't consider that maybe someone in your group is still learning mechanics or still has a quest. It just has become so impersonal.

OverpoweredPhealing

It does bring me joy to see that I have made an old topic alive again. A topic which is not off not that long ago, but i do have seen a lot of changes ever since. I'm a player from the beta and have my times of playing a lot and giving it a brake for some time. With a lot of changes along the time line and new content it always brought me (yes again) joy to start playing again. My armor was still where i left it and there were new things to try, to explore and new sets to grind and new dungeons to overcome. New tactics to learn and even some new in-game gameplay being a card game. I actually really liked that, i actually still do, although it's getting harder and harder to find any balance in this automatic finder. Even despite of your rank.
One wrong bought card or one just to many cause you couldn't resist your greed. But same as with the card game, as well as with the group dungeon finder there are patterns starting to emerge. Whereby, as far as i remember from way back, queueing as a fake tank was sometimes the case, but usually they got kicked and sometimes they all (that's what i meant with my last message, the way of communication) decided to at least give it a shot and see where they would strand. Sometimes they actually made it, and sometimes they had to find for a new/better tank or a new and better healer. But lately these things have really got out of hand. They just run off like there is no tomorrow. Not even considering why the rest of the group would also bet there and that they are actually also playing a game they have bought. Probably with the idea of doing a dungeon, and where some actually want to grind, other's are happy to do a dungeon after work to get a bit more relaxed and just have some fun. But these runners somehow took a portal from the Center of the universe to tell them, you and also me. "Dont need heal". And there off again. And this part is really the part i still don't get. Cause i mean i can buff you up even further which would make it even more faster to clear. But every other individual seems like a 'drag along with me'-kinda thing to them. They now even pull a mob, so you think you've got a normal tank, but then at like 35% they just run off like your the cleaner and should get the job done.

Anyway, this kinda reminds me of a actual great speech made by someone also somewhere a long time ago a long a timeline, so in a way you can refer to this being a bit similar. Now i quote just a part of that speech as an example;

In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way.

Greed has poisoned men’s souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost…

Now if you would put 'Oaken' in front of it, you would get what in my opinion really got this machine running. Ever since this ring (the one that rules them all) have taken it's steps into the game. Players (human people) didn't need no buff no more. "And better yet, with the simple click of one mouse button, I could clear a whole dungeon myself. Even faster then the rest of the group, cause it was a race, wasn't it?! But i'm in a too much rush to actually find out cause i have already cleared the next one and i did see a few complains, but hey! I feel great! I cleared a dungeon on my own wearing a ring. And did you look at the damage i did? How can you complain? I alone just did you a favor and cleared the dungeon for you!" Well you get my point now i guess?

Now Dear ZOS, I've already send quite a few complains about the 'dungeon runners', and those complains started to get more and more on a shorter point of time till up at some point it just felt worthless. I think we were just overwhelmed by the amount of new players that they all saw each other do this, so it kinda became the normal now. And that is actually the most used 'excuse' that i have experienced along the way. "It's a normal dungeon. Stop crying". Well, actually it is, but it's also the content i have payed for a real long time ago of which i still today like to play it just as it suppose to be. Now if someone comes up and ask, quick run? Well, then i wouldn't know why i shouldn't. Cause that, as a group, can also be real fun! Again, as a group.
So try with your quote that i quoted, try to change the word 'thread' with the word 'dungeon runner'. And try and change the words 'this topic' with 'selfish behaviour' and then change the 'behaviour' with 'working together as a team'.

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about behavior in a dungeon.

Thank you for your understanding

Now please take this issue (i think it's already way past that) into further review whereby people who still want to play the good old content as it were, are not overrun by such a toxic 'mythic' item such as the 'Oakensoul'.


Small positive side node about the players, if you feel like reading more;

It is truly fun to read about 'the good old days and there experience' from other players. I'm still a bit shocked with how easy it is lately to run vBRF or vSCP. I actually ran with a group on normal not that long ago (Scalecaller). I explained the basic things you need to know for Orzun and Rinaerus. But somehow they kept running around like headless chicken. It got a bit on my nerfs at some point, but i kept smiling and also had a lot of fun trying (it actually made the dungeon a bit tougher again to heal).

valenwood_vegan

Maybe some of the posters with similar complaints about their random group experiences would benefit from contacting each other and forming a premade group to play the way they want to? Seems like a more effective / immediate solution than somehow expecting ZoS to change the game to force others to play a certain way.

svendf

That would be easy if all new player´s knew all the forum posters and their platform. Ingame alot of player´s deactivate the zone chat for very good reasons.

Hahaha oh my.

karthrag_inak

Arise, necrothread, and corrupt the world!

Khajiit does not mean to be necromancer, apologies.

Kappachi

Elendir2am wrote: »

I never liked skiprs. However, every time I initiate vote-kick of them during last few months, they ended out. I think, that more players understand now, how skiprs harm them and vote-kicking of skiprs is much successful therfore.

Yup, vote kicks of skippers/speedrunners are going much better nowadays for people who just want to do the dungeon at normal pace or even do the secrets but one person is trying to ruin the experience for everyone. Just gotta feel it out, if you have a group of like-minded explorers then those vote-kicks are a near 100% success.

Daoin

give up on it all mate, the last answer was to let the speedrunners drag everyone else through with them most of the time adding insult to injury by telling the group to wipe, group finder needs an overhaul and to be made better but the call goes unanswered and basically falls on deaf ears

svendf

It´s not the group finder, who need an overhaul. It´s the design of the dungeons.

SilverBride

As long as dungeons have optional bosses most groups are going to skip them. And as long as dungeons are required to earn transmutes players are going to rush through them because they have made dungeons a chore rather than a pleasurable experience.

I suggest that the following happen:

• Require that all bosses be defeated for the dungeon to complete OR
• Award more transmutes if all the bosses have been defeated.
• Make bosses invulnerable to attack until all the trash mobs on the path up to them have been defeated.
• Put groups that have kicked or lost a member at the front of the queue to find a replacement.

Amottica

SilverBride wrote: »

As long as dungeons have optional bosses most groups are going to skip them. And as long as dungeons are required to earn transmutes players are going to rush through them because they have made dungeons a chore rather than a pleasurable experience.

I suggest that the following happen:

• Require that all bosses be defeated for the dungeon to complete OR
• Award more transmutes if all the bosses have been defeated.
• Make bosses invulnerable to attack until all the trash mobs on the path up to them have been defeated.
• Put groups that have kicked or lost a member at the front of the queue to find a replacement.

Bonus bosses are just that, a bonus, an extra, and should never be required as they are off the beaten path.

The only thing that needs to be changed is to make it so mobs will keep following the group to the next boss and make it so if the group wipes they respawn at that boss killed or the entrance. That ensures the group has to kill the mobs and that if anyone runs ahead they are the ones that will be dealing with the mobs first.

Pretty sure groups missing a member and have queued for a replacement are put at the front of the queue. I thought the message noted that the group was a priority but it has been a while since I have had to worry about such things since I no longer run with random groups. Guild groups ensure a smoother and faster run.

SilverBride

Amottica wrote: »

Pretty sure groups missing a member and have queued for a replacement are put at the front of the queue. I thought the message noted that the group was a priority but it has been a while since I have had to worry about such things since I no longer run with random groups. Guild groups ensure a smoother and faster run.

They should be but we recently had a member leave the second they realized it was a DLC dungeon (another issue that needs addressed) and never did get a replacement. We used a companion for awhile then finally found someone ourselves to fill the empty spot.

Kappachi

Amottica wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

As long as dungeons have optional bosses most groups are going to skip them. And as long as dungeons are required to earn transmutes players are going to rush through them because they have made dungeons a chore rather than a pleasurable experience.

I suggest that the following happen:

• Require that all bosses be defeated for the dungeon to complete OR
• Award more transmutes if all the bosses have been defeated.
• Make bosses invulnerable to attack until all the trash mobs on the path up to them have been defeated.
• Put groups that have kicked or lost a member at the front of the queue to find a replacement.

Bonus bosses are just that, a bonus, an extra, and should never be required as they are off the beaten path.

The only thing that needs to be changed is to make it so mobs will keep following the group to the next boss and make it so if the group wipes they respawn at that boss killed or the entrance. That ensures the group has to kill the mobs and that if anyone runs ahead they are the ones that will be dealing with the mobs first.

Pretty sure groups missing a member and have queued for a replacement are put at the front of the queue. I thought the message noted that the group was a priority but it has been a while since I have had to worry about such things since I no longer run with random groups. Guild groups ensure a smoother and faster run.

I doubt missing member queues are put at the front... you often have to wait 30+ minutes for a tank or even if you lose a DPS it can take 10 minutes whereas queueing normally will often be pretty fast or instant even for a DPS character.

Amottica

SilverBride wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Pretty sure groups missing a member and have queued for a replacement are put at the front of the queue. I thought the message noted that the group was a priority but it has been a while since I have had to worry about such things since I no longer run with random groups. Guild groups ensure a smoother and faster run.

They should be but we recently had a member leave the second they realized it was a DLC dungeon (another issue that needs addressed) and never did get a replacement. We used a companion for awhile then finally found someone ourselves to fill the empty spot.

Depending on the role, it can take a while to fill a vacancy. Experienced tanks prefer to run with guildies and avoid issues with GF groups.

@Kappachi Tanks will generally take a while for the reason I stated above. Heck, when I was new and commented in my guild that players in the group I was in kept dying to clearly marked PBAoEs and overall lacked the damage to get past mechanics they told me the problem was I was in a GF group. Since then I never experienced those issues since I run with guildies and friends now. It is a common story with other tanks I know.