Moderation of today's Twitch stream

KilianDermoth

Seriously I dont expect much from Zenimax or the dev team at all anymore besides trying to advertise / promote at best mediocre and often even bad stuff as it would be the greatest thing in the world.

The first streams I have seen (maybe 2 or 3 years back) were really an event and I had somehow a joyful anticipation. But after getting disappointed over and over I literally didnt care at all what they had to say yesterday and just opened the tab to get the reward for watching the stream while leaving even the computer to do other stuff. I even wasnt sure if its worth the few clicks to just open the twitch tab...

I for example remember how highly praised the companions were and that they behave very intelligent while even makeing it possible to do dungeons with them and what we got were companions who die to easy avoidable mechanics dealing almost no damage and sometimes behave very dumb and are barely useful outside of overworld content, content you for sure dont need companions to deal with. So besides being obsolet in overland content and useless in other content they dont provide much besides a few quickly done quests, even not some meaningful fun / interesting interaction after you have done the quests.

Then the excavation and scrying thing, boring mindless grind, not just not adding much to the game but even makeing the whole game in my opinion worse, ...

Or how great the endeavor system is and that you will be able to get all the crown store stuff just by playing the game a little bit, where you have to grind this... What we got is another absolutely stupid grind, where you have to grind for almost a year to get a single interesting item, what a joke...

And high isle, how great it is, the greatest thing they ever have done, and its so super great and what not... Sure a card game minigame is a cool extra and such (even I didnt play it yet, because I am not convinced enough to get high isle and even not sure if I want to put any more money into this game), but seriously the only thing you accomplished with such overly exaggerated promotions is to loose even the last credibility you had...

[snip]

Then there is other stuff like banning people for no reason and giveing a halfheartedly apologyze at best if at all afterwards. Banning whole raid groups for trying to reproduce bugs to be able to describe them in detail, doing YOUR job - for free. [snip] Literally everything about update 35, not just the absolute random messy balance, gutting whole classes, favoring one or two classes, raising the difficulty of already very difficult content but also how all the community relations are handled. The bugs that arent fixed for years. The lag and the very long ago promised new servers that still arent there (EU). And several more stuff.

Additionally how the game is monetized, an almost mandatory subscription (almost unplayable without the craft bag) on top of full price extensions every year on top of a crown store with insanely overprized items on top of crown store items where the term scam perfectly fits (armory system slots per character or the werewolf bite for example) and so on...

Further I once was one of the persons where the game stopped launching after an update, where they again broke anything and if you search for other cases you will see that this happens over and over since a long time period. Sure bugs and such can happen but I could see how "good" the support of this game is (it was the worst experience I ever had with the support of any company). Waiting for days, getting standard answers which sometimes even not closely fit to the topic / problem or even accusing to cause the problem yourself, while the patch was the cause, is not a good support, especially if you prove the support wrong over and over and they still continue to find new causes on your side while the game itself was broken until they literally just started talking nonsense. I am an IT specialist myself and could solve it after I found out why the game didnt work all by myself. Almost any other player hadnt been able to solve it and even I wasted plenty of time doing so.

All this sums up and seriously, how the product / the game is handled in total is one of the worst things I have every seen yet. Some companies have done in single points even worse but I literally dont remember a single company doing so bad in such a broad spectrum and continuously even getting worse and worse.

I even completely stopped recommending this game a while back and if someone asks me what I play regularly, I always hope that he doesnt ask if "its worth" because the game itself has some stuff it does better than other MMOs it still doesnt feel right to recommend it seeing how it is handled and how things get worse and worse.

I didnt say anything about cancelling subscription yet and never used this as a "weapon" in any discussion but for me it got this bad that I really dont know if you will be able to repair your reputation ever again and I probably wont renew the subscription and probably leave this game when the subscription runs out in about a half year, because its almost unplayable without the subscription and I dont feel that I want to support the game by paying a subscription.

But to clarify one thing: I didnt cancel the subscription because of anything concrete, I even had canceled it if everything would be fine, just to have the control and decide if its worth to renew it (I hate automatic renewal) or if I want to move on. But as said I am really not sure if I will renew it, probably not. Even update 35 nor how moderation is done is a single reason for this, both still add to the feeling that its better to just move on and forget about the game.

[edited for bashing & rude/insulting comment]

psychotrip

The amount of willful, corporate bootlicking in this thread is baffling to me.

"They weren't there to answer questions"

Why should any of us care about that? We pay them. Chat was open. The questions were relevent to the content being shown. Dont blame the players for asking relevent questions when we're being shut out and ignored everywhere else. Blame the suits who set those poor devs up to fail.

Come on, people. I love you guys, but we cant defend the indefensible in the name of defending the game.

YandereGirlfriend

BahometZ wrote: »

I think people are just desperate to hear any ZOS employee thoughts on the unpopular u35, because there is very little communication or recognition from them. There is some, yes, but not enough to explain away the myriad issues that are present. I can't blame people for flocking to an official stream to get some questions answered, because it rarely happens anywhere else.

Quite right.

The people saying, "They weren't there to talk about it" omit the fact that, somehow, there never actually IS a time to talk about it so players are using the only chance that they will realistically get to ask. PvP players know all about how this goes.

spartaxoxo

Aren't they going to be holding a Q&A at a later time???


ETA: Yup.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615102/so-whatever-happened-to-that-q-a#Comment_7691808

There's literally going to be a Q&A for specifically addressing questions that's already been advertised. They also have had like 4 explainer threads (and a little bit of information previewing their logic in a stream) in addition to the patch notes being quite detailed.

It's not that we haven't had feedback and won't get feedback in the future, so the only choice was to bother a fun convention. It's that the patch is hot garbage and nobody likes their answers. It's understandable why nobody likes the patch. It's one of the worst patches and they absolutely should be holding this Q&A at the bare minimum. But, they have also had a high level of communication about this patch. I dislike their answers too, but disliking the answer and not receiving answers are two different things. We can't as a community say we want more feedback, even if it's negative and we don't like it, and then when we get that feedback pretend it didn't exist. That just sends the message to the devs that they should keep quiet unless they are doing what we want them to do IMO.

Ratzkifal

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aren't they going to be holding a Q&A at a later time???


ETA: Yup.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615102/so-whatever-happened-to-that-q-a#Comment_7691808

There's literally going to be a Q&A for specifically addressing questions that's already been advertised. They also have had like 4 explainer threads (and a little bit of information previewing their logic in a stream) in addition to the patch notes being quite detailed.

It's not that we haven't had feedback and won't get feedback in the future, so the only choice was to bother a fun convention. It's that the patch is hot garbage and nobody likes their answers. It's understandable why nobody likes the patch. It's one of the worst patches and they absolutely should be holding this Q&A at the bare minimum. But, they have also had a high level of communication about this patch. I dislike their answers too, but disliking the answer and not receiving answers are two different things. We can't as a community say we want more feedback, even if it's negative and we don't like it, and then when we get that feedback pretend it didn't exist. That just sends the message to the devs that they should keep quiet unless they are doing what we want them to do IMO.

What even is the point of having a Q&A if the patch is already pretty much set in stone?
The only reason I can see here is that they are so ... let's say confident in their choices that they think a simple Q&A will get us on board with whatever it is they are doing. But it's not like only they have all the facts and only their opinion is informed. Without a Q&A we already know what the update feels like, so the only way it could have served a point would be if it had been done in week 4 and the results of our questions could have then been implemented into week 5 or the live patch. It's too late for that at this point.
They might as well have the Q&A be about update 36 now. That would make a lot more sense in my opinion.

ZOS_Kevin

Hi All, wanted to pop in and address a few things up here.

Neither of the segments presented were designed to address U35 combat. While we understand the want to ask questions and get answers, these streams were not intended to address that content.

Also as several of you have noted, we had a plan and a schedule as the stream was a collaboration between ZOS and other Bethesda Studios, not one of our normal livestreams. We had a core experience in mind for these segments to fit the themes of QuakeCon and strict timing to adhere by. Being a more fun community focused event, the programming matched that, which is why questions around U35 combat were not addressed.

Lastly, the mod team made an effort not to delete commentary centered around U35 combat unless it disrupted other users from engaging in the contents of the livestream. As we've noted before, spamming questions hinders others from engaging in the displayed content will be handled at the mod's discretion. Having said that, they did make an specific effort not to delete comments or timeout anyone who noted questions or feedback around U35 combat.

Hopefully this helps in providing some context here. @Ratzkifal appreciate the tag in this thread. Thanks.

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The only reason I can see here is that they are so ... let's say confident in their choices that they think a simple Q&A will get us on board with whatever it is they are doing.

The fact that they have bounced around from one extreme to another, with rollbacks and rollbacks of rollbacks and complete 180s in direction (like focusing on accessibility in the preview notes to.... well... what's more accessible in week 5?) would indicate that that confidence would be misplaced.

I surely wouldn't want to be the one tasked with writing a Q&A for my employer if I worked for ZOS. It will appease no one, and only add fuel to the fire.

Jaraal

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to pop in and address a few things up here.

Neither of the segments presented were designed to address U35 combat. While we understand the want to ask questions and get answers, these streams were not intended to address that content.

Also as several of you have noted, we had a plan and a schedule as the stream was a collaboration between ZOS and other Bethesda Studios, not one of our normal livestreams. We had a core experience in mind for these segments to fit the themes of QuakeCon and strict timing to adhere by. Being a more fun community focused event, the programming matched that, which is why questions around U35 combat were not addressed.

Lastly, the mod team made an effort not to delete commentary centered around U35 combat unless it disrupted other users from engaging in the contents of the livestream. As we've noted before, spamming questions hinders others from engaging in the displayed content will be handled at the mod's discretion. Having said that, they did make an specific effort not to delete comments or timeout anyone who noted questions or feedback around U35 combat.

Hopefully this helps in providing some context here. @Ratzkifal appreciate the tag in this thread. Thanks.

Thank you for the information, Kevin.

Carcamongus

That the stream's purpose wasn't to address U35 doesn't mean players were out of place for complaining in chat. Expecting answers from the streamers might have been unrealistic, but I believe the real point was to make it abundantly clear that a lot of people are unhappy about the upcoming changes. A public protest, if you will.

spartaxoxo

Ratzkifal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aren't they going to be holding a Q&A at a later time???


ETA: Yup.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615102/so-whatever-happened-to-that-q-a#Comment_7691808

There's literally going to be a Q&A for specifically addressing questions that's already been advertised. They also have had like 4 explainer threads (and a little bit of information previewing their logic in a stream) in addition to the patch notes being quite detailed.

It's not that we haven't had feedback and won't get feedback in the future, so the only choice was to bother a fun convention. It's that the patch is hot garbage and nobody likes their answers. It's understandable why nobody likes the patch. It's one of the worst patches and they absolutely should be holding this Q&A at the bare minimum. But, they have also had a high level of communication about this patch. I dislike their answers too, but disliking the answer and not receiving answers are two different things. We can't as a community say we want more feedback, even if it's negative and we don't like it, and then when we get that feedback pretend it didn't exist. That just sends the message to the devs that they should keep quiet unless they are doing what we want them to do IMO.

What even is the point of having a Q&A if the patch is already pretty much set in stone?
The only reason I can see here is that they are so ... let's say confident in their choices that they think a simple Q&A will get us on board with whatever it is they are doing. But it's not like only they have all the facts and only their opinion is informed. Without a Q&A we already know what the update feels like, so the only way it could have served a point would be if it had been done in week 4 and the results of our questions could have then been implemented into week 5 or the live patch. It's too late for that at this point.
They might as well have the Q&A be about update 36 now. That would make a lot more sense in my opinion.

I mean you're not wrong, but that was the case today too. My guess is the Q&A would be to tell us they are monitoring feedback on U35 and will make adjustments in U36, like always. It's always the case with terrible patches that they fix them in future updates only after seeing data on live (which is awful for all of us that play the game). The only difference between this update and every heavily despised update they've had like it before is that they have tried to communicate more about it. Otherwise, it's going to play out the exact same as always. Terrible update takes few patches to make better, at which point the game ends up the exact same as always with the exception of some fun builds or sets are dead. And the then they'll introduce some OP set next chapter.

Regardless, when most of us asked for feedback, most of us agreed that we wanted even if we didn't like it and even if we didn't agree with the developers. We just wanted more communication. This is what more communication we don't like looks like. It is not pretty because the hate for u35 is near universal, but if we don't want them to feel like it's pointless to communicate during times like these, that needs to be acknowledged imo. 🤷🏿‍♀️

RaikaNA

psychotrip wrote: »

The amount of willful, corporate bootlicking in this thread is baffling to me.

"They weren't there to answer questions"

Why should any of us care about that? We pay them. Chat was open. The questions were relevent to the content being shown. Dont blame the players for asking relevent questions when we're being shut out and ignored everywhere else. Blame the suits who set those poor devs up to fail.

Come on, people. I love you guys, but we cant defend the indefensible in the name of defending the game.

Those poor developers can easily walk away and become the solution, and not the problem if the suits are truly to blame. As long as they contuine being employed by Zenimax and accepting a salery from the suits... they're not even close to being poor.

It is the developer's responsibility to communicate with their players... if they're not answering their player's questions and comment about the patch that they're releasing... well shame on them... I thought they cared about "communication?" Didn't Gina Bruno sent a tweet something like that a while ago? Communication? If people are being censored.. it needs to stop.

neferpitou73

Does someone want to look up one of the mod's (I think Kevin's) post from a couple months ago about how "we're sorry for the overzealous moderation" that "we're going to re-train our moderators so that this doesn't happen again" and that "we're going to work on our communication" after they censored "PvP" and "Cyrodiil" from the chapter reveal stream.

I'm still amazed that:

1.) This company is having virtually the same PR incidents 3 months apart

2.) They still believe that censorship is the best PR strategy.

Jaraal

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Does someone want to look up one of the mod's (I think Kevin's) post from a couple months ago about how "we're sorry for the overzealous moderation" that "we're going to re-train our moderators so that this doesn't happen again" and that "we're going to work on our communication" after they censored "PvP" and "Cyrodiil" from the chapter reveal stream.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/604466/pvp-and-cyrodiil-gets-you-banned-on-twitch/p1

Elsonso

RaikaNA wrote: »

I thought they cared about "communication?" Didn't Gina Bruno sent a tweet something like that a while ago? Communication?

I think they do care, but it is more work than I believe they are willing to invest, long term. What we get are short spurts of increased interest in communication, like what we have seen around Update 35 combat. My expectation is that this will come to an end as quickly as it appeared. Next time, and there will be a next time, I do not expect them to show as much interest.

I find ZOS_Kevin's comments to be at odds with the comments from the community, but I am glad that he took the time to answer.

psychotrip

RaikaNA wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

The amount of willful, corporate bootlicking in this thread is baffling to me.

"They weren't there to answer questions"

Why should any of us care about that? We pay them. Chat was open. The questions were relevent to the content being shown. Dont blame the players for asking relevent questions when we're being shut out and ignored everywhere else. Blame the suits who set those poor devs up to fail.

Come on, people. I love you guys, but we cant defend the indefensible in the name of defending the game.

Those poor developers can easily walk away and become the solution, and not the problem if the suits are truly to blame. As long as they contuine being employed by Zenimax and accepting a salery from the suits... they're not even close to being poor.

It is the developer's responsibility to communicate with their players... if they're not answering their player's questions and comment about the patch that they're releasing... well shame on them... I thought they cared about "communication?" Didn't Gina Bruno sent a tweet something like that a while ago? Communication? If people are being censored.. it needs to stop.

Maybe you're not from the US, but it's not that simple to just quit your job over here. At least not if you want to keep a roof over your head. I could understand if this was Lockheed Martin or something, but we're talking about video games here. These folks shouldnt have to quit in protest to meet your unrealistic standards.

Also, if everyone quit we wouldnt have anymore ESO. I doubt thats what you want.

So, as I said, dont blame the rank and file devs for this. Vast majority of them want to provide the best experience possible, but their hands are tied because of corporate BS.

General rule of thumb: don't blame the workers. Blame the people with actual decision making power.

Kirawolfe

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lastly, the mod team made an effort not to delete commentary centered around U35 combat unless it disrupted other users from engaging in the contents of the livestream. As we've noted before, spamming questions hinders others from engaging in the displayed content will be handled at the mod's discretion. Having said that, they did make an specific effort not to delete comments or timeout anyone who noted questions or feedback around U35 combat.

I appreciate you taking the time to post here, sincerely.

However the above is not what happened. There was blanket censorship of anything about U35 - valid questions, comments (some diplomatic, some not), etc - and it happened within seconds. This was not a case of spamming either, they were from a variety of users, though those same users returns to ask why they'd been censored, only to be censored again. The only U35 comments that lingered, and that may have been deleted a little later (I really don't know) were the ones that embraced the update/patch.

I do understand that the focus wasn't on combat changes, but this was so aggressively done it came across very poorly and added to that feeling of us vs them, which I don't think anyone wants or needs.

Jamie_Aubrey

Kirawolfe wrote: »

Jamie_Aubrey wrote: »

Viewer1: FIX PVP
Viewer2: FIX PVP
Viewer3: FIX PVP
Viewer4: FIX PVP
Viewer5: FIX PVP
Viewer6: FIX PVP

You can see why it gets moderated

That's for part of the thread I was reminded of, sure. That wasn't what was happening today. Although there was a heck of lot of this:

!pet
!pet
!pet
!pet
etc %)

That (and !eso and !trivium) were the only things being spammed.

Yeah I saw this, the stream was also an hour in so I thought it was for a giveaway

psychotrip

Kirawolfe wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lastly, the mod team made an effort not to delete commentary centered around U35 combat unless it disrupted other users from engaging in the contents of the livestream. As we've noted before, spamming questions hinders others from engaging in the displayed content will be handled at the mod's discretion. Having said that, they did make an specific effort not to delete comments or timeout anyone who noted questions or feedback around U35 combat.

I appreciate you taking the time to post here, sincerely.

However the above is not what happened. There was blanket censorship of anything about U35 - valid questions, comments (some diplomatic, some not), etc - and it happened within seconds. This was not a case of spamming either, they were from a variety of users, though those same users returns to ask why they'd been censored, only to be censored again. The only U35 comments that lingered, and that may have been deleted a little later (I really don't know) were the ones that embraced the update/patch.

I do understand that the focus wasn't on combat changes, but this was so aggressively done it came across very poorly and added to that feeling of us vs them, which I don't think anyone wants or needs.

If true, this is very damning.

Do you have a followup, @ZOS_Kevin ?

karekiz

RaikaNA wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

The amount of willful, corporate bootlicking in this thread is baffling to me.

"They weren't there to answer questions"

Why should any of us care about that? We pay them. Chat was open. The questions were relevent to the content being shown. Dont blame the players for asking relevent questions when we're being shut out and ignored everywhere else. Blame the suits who set those poor devs up to fail.

Come on, people. I love you guys, but we cant defend the indefensible in the name of defending the game.

Those poor developers can easily walk away and become the solution, and not the problem if the suits are truly to blame. As long as they contuine being employed by Zenimax and accepting a salery from the suits... they're not even close to being poor.

It is the developer's responsibility to communicate with their players... if they're not answering their player's questions and comment about the patch that they're releasing... well shame on them... I thought they cared about "communication?" Didn't Gina Bruno sent a tweet something like that a while ago? Communication? If people are being censored.. it needs to stop.

1. You must live a good life if you choose to easily walk away from a job. Some of those guys have kids to feed.
2. Being paid /=/ being far from poor. Life has circumstances. Medical bills can easily bankrupt middle class families.
3. I agree its some developers responsibilities. However devs are not PR, you can be the best dungeon designer and not good at PR. I am sure there are those that are great for it. Rich himself streamed, which is what everyone complained the devs didn't do. That turned out well.....

Censorship lol. I was one of those that got timed out. Why? Cause I was trolling. That comment about being banned for saying PvP / Cyrodiil. I know I did it. Why? To see if I would get timed out. I was trolling. If you couldn't catch that, sad.

Ragnarok0130

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lastly, the mod team made an effort not to delete commentary centered around U35 combat unless it disrupted other users from engaging in the contents of the livestream. As we've noted before, spamming questions hinders others from engaging in the displayed content will be handled at the mod's discretion. Having said that, they did make an specific effort not to delete comments or timeout anyone who noted questions or feedback around U35 combat.

@ZOS_Kevin that's not at all what actually happened while I watched the stream live so I hope you have significant remedial training for those Twitch mods before the next live stream because I saw anything remotely critical about U35 immediately nuked from orbit while anything positive about U35 was left up. The comments removed weren't even spammed questions they were single questions that didn't repeat from different people.

Edit: so based on the link posted above ZoS previous strive to ensure moderation improves from May didn't take.

Jaraal

psychotrip wrote: »

Kirawolfe wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lastly, the mod team made an effort not to delete commentary centered around U35 combat unless it disrupted other users from engaging in the contents of the livestream. As we've noted before, spamming questions hinders others from engaging in the displayed content will be handled at the mod's discretion. Having said that, they did make an specific effort not to delete comments or timeout anyone who noted questions or feedback around U35 combat.

I appreciate you taking the time to post here, sincerely.

However the above is not what happened. There was blanket censorship of anything about U35 - valid questions, comments (some diplomatic, some not), etc - and it happened within seconds. This was not a case of spamming either, they were from a variety of users, though those same users returns to ask why they'd been censored, only to be censored again. The only U35 comments that lingered, and that may have been deleted a little later (I really don't know) were the ones that embraced the update/patch.

I do understand that the focus wasn't on combat changes, but this was so aggressively done it came across very poorly and added to that feeling of us vs them, which I don't think anyone wants or needs.

If true, this is very damning.

Do you have a followup, @ZOS_Kevin ?

Technically, if 9 out of 10 comments are about PvP or U35, they could be considered as "unless it disrupted other users from engaging in the contents of the livestream." Their idea of spamming could include five users in a row saying "U35", because really.... would the ZOS censors actually be keeping track of the name of who said what in a fast moving chat stream? Of course not.

Kiralyn2000

Honestly, they probably should have done this on something other than Twitch. Or with chat turned off, if that's possible.
If all you want to do is broadcast a promo, don't open it up to people yelling about any other random stuff that's bothering them. Just do a broadcast.


(personally, I think the whole "zomg, censorship!" thing is overblown. But this is the internet. Overblown is what it does.)

Jaimeh

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to pop in and address a few things up here.

Neither of the segments presented were designed to address U35 combat. While we understand the want to ask questions and get answers, these streams were not intended to address that content.

Also as several of you have noted, we had a plan and a schedule as the stream was a collaboration between ZOS and other Bethesda Studios, not one of our normal livestreams. We had a core experience in mind for these segments to fit the themes of QuakeCon and strict timing to adhere by. Being a more fun community focused event, the programming matched that, which is why questions around U35 combat were not addressed.

Lastly, the mod team made an effort not to delete commentary centered around U35 combat unless it disrupted other users from engaging in the contents of the livestream. As we've noted before, spamming questions hinders others from engaging in the displayed content will be handled at the mod's discretion. Having said that, they did make an specific effort not to delete comments or timeout anyone who noted questions or feedback around U35 combat.

Hopefully this helps in providing some context here. @Ratzkifal appreciate the tag in this thread. Thanks.

Is this is a roundabout way of saying that positive comments were allowed, whereas comments with criticism or otherwise non-praising manner were deleted, because that's what happened from the looks of it, even though in previous communication the community were told moderation would be more discerning and not as heavy-handed in the future.

Elsonso

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Honestly, they probably should have done this on something other than Twitch. Or with chat turned off, if that's possible.
If all you want to do is broadcast a promo, don't open it up to people yelling about any other random stuff that's bothering them. Just do a broadcast.

Now that they have a reputation regarding censoring comments, if they try to do a stream with comments disabled, it will just look like they are taking censorship to the next level.

Jaraal

Elsonso wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Honestly, they probably should have done this on something other than Twitch. Or with chat turned off, if that's possible.
If all you want to do is broadcast a promo, don't open it up to people yelling about any other random stuff that's bothering them. Just do a broadcast.

Now that they have a reputation regarding censoring comments, if they try to do a stream with comments disabled, it will just look like they are taking censorship to the next level.

It's the paperless version of Fahrenheit 451.