Update 35; Good or Bad? (over 11,000 votes)

IZZEFlameLash

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

All these results show is that the masses can’t handle the idea of change. Yet the masses also get bored when no changes are made. So in order to keep a game fun, you have to anger the masses and make changes. But anger is more fun than indifference, so the masses actually play more than if no changes were made

Change =/= always good. Changing stuffs that are already working fine enough and making them worse isn't a good change at all. People like changes that are built on solid foundation of things that work and with actual reasonable reasons. ZOS' changes always had been just flipping the foundation on things no one really asked for. That is what people are against. Constant meta changes with often bizzare or out of touch reasons before the dust of last change has settled makes for a tiresome experience.

Enundr

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

All these results show is that the masses can’t handle the idea of change. Yet the masses also get bored when no changes are made. So in order to keep a game fun, you have to anger the masses and make changes. But anger is more fun than indifference, so the masses actually play more than if no changes were made

Change =/= always good. Changing stuffs that are already working fine enough and making them worse isn't a good change at all. People like changes that are built on solid foundation of things that work and with actual reasonable reasons. ZOS' changes always had been just flipping the foundation on things no one really asked for. That is what people are against. Constant meta changes with often bizzare or out of touch reasons before the dust of last change has settled makes for a tiresome experience.

very true , and i find it ironic and headache inducing knowing some ppl like to believe the nerfs make the game "challenging" , doing less dmg doesnt make it challenging , its the equivalent of just making a boss a "bullet sponge" if you will , basically way too much health but doesnt actually put challenge (much less has any of this combat update looking like it does anything to their originally stated goal of something to do with making the game more accessible or whatever? feels more like the exact opposite. the fact that this has been tallowed to go on as long as it has is VERY BAD for ZOS reputation at this point and they may very well find it hard to recover from outside of the diehard fans and the ppl just trying to the game non the wiser , as well as gold sellers who log in XD). basically as far as when it was first on PTS the dps was so low making dps checks wasnt possible (havent logged on to either live or PTS lately because im losing hope unless i specficially see the changes are scrapped and only the dlc gets released , i feel no need to give them neither $ or active player count if this is going through) , but the fact that "easier accessibility" had no actual correlation to what was actually happening and instead was just massive nerfs so bad that even the hardcore couldnt clear content , it was VERY obvious this was going to be a disaster , and if put out wed just see minor changes over several months at best case scenario , still not living up to the easier accessibility plan they were saying. Change may be constant but as you said FlameLash its not always good , especially if its one that can be controlled then its not an unavoidable change vs how natural things in life (basically the concept of evolution for all things nature related) , this change is one that is just being forced for ......ill avoid a rude remark here.....reasons. can they stop it? yes. its at this point what seems like the majority of the vocal playerbase still trying to get through to them to stop it keeps hoping theyll announce , making an effort to save face and repair their PR. so far were are not seeing this and PR be dammed approach is what theyre sticking with. think this may put ESO on its death bed (there are other mmos out there to play so kind of a bad thing to try to act like they can suffer this bad PR. i will hope they announce they will cancel these changes , but i have no hope of that happening at this point in the development cycle vs communication from devs.

DarcyMardin

All-round bad, as far as I’m concerned. I haven’t participated in any polls outside the ones on this forum, so I’m not included in those other big polls. I’m very sick of the constant sledgehammer changes, which I have never seen in any other game. It took me ages to learn to light attack weave and use rotations, in part because I am no longer young (now 74). And the unnerfed oakensoul ring really helped me do content I hadn’t previously attempted.

Plus, the nerfs to both of my favorite classes, templar and warden, are too brutal for words.

I’m just logging in for a brief time now, and, after almost 9 years here, I’m researching other games.

DrSlaughtr

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

fizl101

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

However there is a large part of the player population who cannot access PTS. For each person who is mad about the jabs animation, there may be a person who has been reading the patch notes and understanding the impact without being able to test it.

DrSlaughtr

fizl101 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

However there is a large part of the player population who cannot access PTS. For each person who is mad about the jabs animation, there may be a person who has been reading the patch notes and understanding the impact without being able to test it.

You can't understand the impact without actually playing it. Can you form a basic opinion by reading the notes? Yes. Is that opinion fully informed? No.

Rimskjegg

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

If that someone quits paying for ESO+ because they've seen how ugly the new animation is in a video, it doesn't matter if they didn't see it on the PTS. It looks the same and it still means lost revenue for the company. In a video game, "that thing looks so ugly that I can't bear to spend money to look at it, please revert" is actually perfectly real and valuable feedback. ( In fact much more credible feedback than players crying that their class is now powerless in PvP - which, even if it's sometimes very valid criticism, also needs to be considered critically because in any game involving PvP, there's always a certain segment whining in the hopes of getting advantages.) Why would anyone waste their time to say they're fine with the powernerf, just don't use that hideous animation, unless the animation actually matters to them?

sabresandiego_ESO

These polls don’t mean much. It’s biased nonsense. The only thing that means anything is what their revenue numbers are and what they look like compared to expected values. I like the patch and will be buying a crown item to show my support

Astin_nds

merpins wrote: »

I won't go into detail about my opinion. Here's a bunch of polls that have been done over the last couple weeks about Update 35, all of which relate to this poll and add to the approximate value of its numbers;

Is your feedback valued? (616 votes)

Skinny Cheeks' "Are you happy with U35 changes" (5,100+ votes)

PTS Changes (279 votes)

Roll-Back U35? (320 votes)

Like or Dislike U35 Changes (182 votes)

Reddit Positive or Negative (2,400+ votes)

Jabs Visual Change 1 (99 votes)

Jabs Visual Change 2 (162 votes)

Flurry Changes (81 votes)

As you can see, it's not the vocal minority that's concerned here.
This is a sample size of over 8,000 votes, and more than likely more than 5,000 total people participating in these votes, with it being universally at least 70%-80% weighted towards disliking the changes.

Where is the , EXTREMELY BAD option? i cant see that

boi_anachronism_

ninjagank wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

However there is a large part of the player population who cannot access PTS. For each person who is mad about the jabs animation, there may be a person who has been reading the patch notes and understanding the impact without being able to test it.

You can't understand the impact without actually playing it. Can you form a basic opinion by reading the notes? Yes. Is that opinion fully informed? No.

Disagree. There is so much data and so many live streams from the pts. Uninformed opinion would mean their was no basis, that is simply not true.

rmajereub17_ESO

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

I hopped on for several hours into PTS and I absolutely could not stand the animation and how it felt, in my opinion, being downgraded. I also tried another few hours this last week on PTS to give it a second chance and look at some of the changes. There were a few hints of things I could adjust to and I thought okay but overall the change in build and rotations I found useful were dreadful to play. The animation alone heavily tainted my view going into it and that’s why I gave a few more hours to it but it didn’t help. Could list a thousand other things I’m upset with over Templar but there’s already enough post all over by everyone repeatedly bringing those issues up. I understand where you’re coming from but even if my templar was suddenly op meta in these changes I don’t think I’d get past the jabs and I can understand that anyone taking a glance at it wouldn’t even have it in them to give it a shot. It’s 100% an attachment to that nostalgia of falling in love with and building a character of something that heavily defined it for many, so irrational or not there’s people who’d rather go without than be degraded to a drunk butler swinging a decorative coat rack animation. Some folks love it and that’s fine- my view is keep ‘em all. Adjust dmg so the output is the same between animations and if ppl morph it to the new version cause the need help weaving that’s fine. If others morph it to the classic look and had no issue weaving it seems it would make everyone happy.

Starlight_Knight

Its not just this update though, sure this one is bad - but for me personally its the straw that broke the cammels back, 3 years now of rubbish, not addressing issues or "pain points"
They just add stale content bloat, crappy NPC companions, no love for pvp or endgame pve, all unlockables still in the crown store and the devs just seem lost with the combat changes, they're all over the place with no direction, homoginisation sucks so hard... i could go on but you get the idea.

sbr32

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

[snip] I've played this game for 10k hours over the last 5 years, I don't need to log into the PTS and test anything to answer the most important question 'Is this game worth playing and supporting?' That answer was a resounding NO. Then I logged onto the PTS and confirmed that decision.

[edited for baiting]

shadyjane62

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

If you are mad enough about the jabs animation disaster, what is the point of downloading 120 gigs and trying it. I wouldn't use that pool noodle for anything you could give me in this game. I didn't get past how it looked because it wouldn't matter about all the rest of the truly awful nerfs to Templar.

It was a good decision as far as I'm concerned as I have a one terabyte cap on my gig downloads. I wouldn't waste 10 on this whatever it is patch.

DrSlaughtr

sbr32 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

[snip] I've played this game for 10k hours over the last 5 years, I don't need to log into the PTS and test anything to answer the most important question 'Is this game worth playing and supporting?' That answer was a resounding NO. Then I logged onto the PTS and confirmed that decision.

So you formed an opinion and then investigated on your own. Good! That's what people should do.

shadyjane62 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

If you are mad enough about the jabs animation disaster, what is the point of downloading 120 gigs and trying it. I wouldn't use that pool noodle for anything you could give me in this game. I didn't get past how it looked because it wouldn't matter about all the rest of the truly awful nerfs to Templar.

It was a good decision as far as I'm concerned as I have a one terabyte cap on my gig downloads. I wouldn't waste 10 on this whatever it is patch.

I'm not telling you not to overreact to something or to play the game against your will. All I said was if you just read the notes and watch some video that will feed you a third party opinion, you should probably try it out yourself if possible before burning your copy of the game, ya know?

rmajereub17_ESO wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

I hopped on for several hours into PTS and I absolutely could not stand the animation and how it felt, in my opinion, being downgraded. I also tried another few hours this last week on PTS to give it a second chance and look at some of the changes. There were a few hints of things I could adjust to and I thought okay but overall the change in build and rotations I found useful were dreadful to play. The animation alone heavily tainted my view going into it and that’s why I gave a few more hours to it but it didn’t help. Could list a thousand other things I’m upset with over Templar but there’s already enough post all over by everyone repeatedly bringing those issues up. I understand where you’re coming from but even if my templar was suddenly op meta in these changes I don’t think I’d get past the jabs and I can understand that anyone taking a glance at it wouldn’t even have it in them to give it a shot. It’s 100% an attachment to that nostalgia of falling in love with and building a character of something that heavily defined it for many, so irrational or not there’s people who’d rather go without than be degraded to a drunk butler swinging a decorative coat rack animation. Some folks love it and that’s fine- my view is keep ‘em all. Adjust dmg so the output is the same between animations and if ppl morph it to the new version cause the need help weaving that’s fine. If others morph it to the classic look and had no issue weaving it seems it would make everyone happy.

You checked it out yourself. Can't fault your opinion. Everyone should do the same if possible. But honestly as you said, "nostalgia" is the biggest issue here. If the animation was always like the PTS, and they were suddenly changing it to the current live version, I am confident we'd see the same reactions. Things change. If you don't want to play templar anymore, don't. If you don't want to play the game anymore, don't. The issue I brought up is trying to use polls mostly populated by votes from people who watched a youtube video.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

However there is a large part of the player population who cannot access PTS. For each person who is mad about the jabs animation, there may be a person who has been reading the patch notes and understanding the impact without being able to test it.

You can't understand the impact without actually playing it. Can you form a basic opinion by reading the notes? Yes. Is that opinion fully informed? No.

Disagree. There is so much data and so many live streams from the pts. Uninformed opinion would mean their was no basis, that is simply not true.

What data? All we have are people's opinions. Some are informed. Others are not.

Necrotech_Master

i personally wouldnt waste the time or disk space to download the PTS, but its pretty easy to see whats coming from the patch notes and analysis being made

i am already anticipating at least a 20% dps drop minimum on my toons (especially my 2h maelstrom using stamplar)

i also dont really just "quit" playing something either (ive been here since launch so ive been through a lot of the major balance changes, but because i never really followed whatever the meta, most of my builds have usually been able to get by with minimum or no changes)

the main part that i absolutely dislike about this new update is nerfing sticky dots into the ground

Drammanoth

ZOS_Kevin answered in one thread that instead of anecdotal feedback, they require numbers, data.

Well, quantitative data is fine, and valid, but supposing you only get quantitative - what can you get? "So... what about it? Nah, it's fine. Let's implement the changes."

Because if someone refuses to listen to you, what is left?

Yes, over the years - YEARS - you have listened, and implemented some huge QoL changes.

But seeing our united voices being generally ignored - not just a handful of people, but people who care - it makes me wonder whether you're not encroaching upon the path which a certain once venerable company strayed into...

HEIIMS

Drammanoth wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin answered in one thread that instead of anecdotal feedback, they require numbers, data.

They require numbers and data, but refuse to give us the same - borderline 10% monster max HP reduction.
"jUsT gAtHeR 12 oThEr pLaYeRs aNd cLeAr vRG HM"


Imagine score pushing trials 12h/week, and be required to download 120gb PTS client just so the rest of the community can see the HP values.
Very nice move from zos regarding progression groups trying to clear vRG HM on live atm. I'm sure they appreciate the accessibility to simple data that should be available to everyone at any time.

Aardappelboom

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

These polls don’t mean much. It’s biased nonsense.

While I don't agree with the oproar on this patch, I have to disagree with all statements above.

These numbers actually do matter, they represent feelings, wether they are uninformed or not, it doesn't actually matter. obviously they are biased, but then again, all statistics are.

What this shows, even if 60% of the votes happen to be people being influenced in their opinions, is that a lot of people think this patch is crap. Even if they haven't played it, it shows ZOS did something wrong, wether it be communication, the patch itself, the way they incentivize influencers to talk about this patch, whatever it is, this is the result.

It's actually really easy to make argumentations that render the numbers useless, but it's often better to look at what's there and find what you can learn from it. There's always truth in these things and If nothing, it's clear that ZOS did something wrong here, even if the patch, in its core would be a good thing or a step towards something bigger, it failed to land.

Klingenlied

Big discussion, guess it mostly boils down to how players feel in regards how fun their class will be to play after the update.
This can in parts be strength of a class - when you are op right now and get nerfed, no longer being able to destroy others might reduce the amount of fun you have.

However, this, with the upcoming patch, is more then just power. It is visuals. It is change in gameplay. It is weird design. Can anyone tell me one game where you need to wait 9 seconds for a skill to pop - skillshot at that - that can be dodged, that can just miss, that will be completely canceled out in the case you did not realize a bar swap didn't work and you accidently recast it?

This example is maybe the most glaring one. We once had a three second delay for the same skill. It got changed more and more and more. And I guess due to players focusing on dummy dps only, there is a lot of actual gameplay that does suffer as a cause of it. I will always hit my dummy with everything I have. It will never be the same for everything in PvE and absolutely not in PvP.

SpacemanSpiff1

it's going to be really good. gap. access.

boi_anachronism_

ninjagank wrote: »

sbr32 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

[snip] I've played this game for 10k hours over the last 5 years, I don't need to log into the PTS and test anything to answer the most important question 'Is this game worth playing and supporting?' That answer was a resounding NO. Then I logged onto the PTS and confirmed that decision.

So you formed an opinion and then investigated on your own. Good! That's what people should do.

shadyjane62 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

If you are mad enough about the jabs animation disaster, what is the point of downloading 120 gigs and trying it. I wouldn't use that pool noodle for anything you could give me in this game. I didn't get past how it looked because it wouldn't matter about all the rest of the truly awful nerfs to Templar.

It was a good decision as far as I'm concerned as I have a one terabyte cap on my gig downloads. I wouldn't waste 10 on this whatever it is patch.

I'm not telling you not to overreact to something or to play the game against your will. All I said was if you just read the notes and watch some video that will feed you a third party opinion, you should probably try it out yourself if possible before burning your copy of the game, ya know?

rmajereub17_ESO wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

I hopped on for several hours into PTS and I absolutely could not stand the animation and how it felt, in my opinion, being downgraded. I also tried another few hours this last week on PTS to give it a second chance and look at some of the changes. There were a few hints of things I could adjust to and I thought okay but overall the change in build and rotations I found useful were dreadful to play. The animation alone heavily tainted my view going into it and that’s why I gave a few more hours to it but it didn’t help. Could list a thousand other things I’m upset with over Templar but there’s already enough post all over by everyone repeatedly bringing those issues up. I understand where you’re coming from but even if my templar was suddenly op meta in these changes I don’t think I’d get past the jabs and I can understand that anyone taking a glance at it wouldn’t even have it in them to give it a shot. It’s 100% an attachment to that nostalgia of falling in love with and building a character of something that heavily defined it for many, so irrational or not there’s people who’d rather go without than be degraded to a drunk butler swinging a decorative coat rack animation. Some folks love it and that’s fine- my view is keep ‘em all. Adjust dmg so the output is the same between animations and if ppl morph it to the new version cause the need help weaving that’s fine. If others morph it to the classic look and had no issue weaving it seems it would make everyone happy.

You checked it out yourself. Can't fault your opinion. Everyone should do the same if possible. But honestly as you said, "nostalgia" is the biggest issue here. If the animation was always like the PTS, and they were suddenly changing it to the current live version, I am confident we'd see the same reactions. Things change. If you don't want to play templar anymore, don't. If you don't want to play the game anymore, don't. The issue I brought up is trying to use polls mostly populated by votes from people who watched a youtube video.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

However there is a large part of the player population who cannot access PTS. For each person who is mad about the jabs animation, there may be a person who has been reading the patch notes and understanding the impact without being able to test it.

You can't understand the impact without actually playing it. Can you form a basic opinion by reading the notes? Yes. Is that opinion fully informed? No.

Disagree. There is so much data and so many live streams from the pts. Uninformed opinion would mean their was no basis, that is simply not true.

What data? All we have are people's opinions. Some are informed. Others are not.

There are literally hundreds of logs posted on discord from countless people who spent hrs testing various sets, builds, and content, including some that tested my exact build. There are streams from pts from folks at the meta level to causal players and everything between. That is hard data, not opinion and that is why some of the changes were made in later weeks. What exactly qualifies as data to you? People did spreadsheets and graphs for data, that's how much was available.

francesinhalover

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

All these results show is that the masses can’t handle the idea of change. Yet the masses also get bored when no changes are made. So in order to keep a game fun, you have to anger the masses and make changes. But anger is more fun than indifference, so the masses actually play more than if no changes were made

Masses? I 100% disagree.
Its the opposite

DrSlaughtr

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

sbr32 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

[snip] I've played this game for 10k hours over the last 5 years, I don't need to log into the PTS and test anything to answer the most important question 'Is this game worth playing and supporting?' That answer was a resounding NO. Then I logged onto the PTS and confirmed that decision.

So you formed an opinion and then investigated on your own. Good! That's what people should do.

shadyjane62 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

If you are mad enough about the jabs animation disaster, what is the point of downloading 120 gigs and trying it. I wouldn't use that pool noodle for anything you could give me in this game. I didn't get past how it looked because it wouldn't matter about all the rest of the truly awful nerfs to Templar.

It was a good decision as far as I'm concerned as I have a one terabyte cap on my gig downloads. I wouldn't waste 10 on this whatever it is patch.

I'm not telling you not to overreact to something or to play the game against your will. All I said was if you just read the notes and watch some video that will feed you a third party opinion, you should probably try it out yourself if possible before burning your copy of the game, ya know?

rmajereub17_ESO wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

I hopped on for several hours into PTS and I absolutely could not stand the animation and how it felt, in my opinion, being downgraded. I also tried another few hours this last week on PTS to give it a second chance and look at some of the changes. There were a few hints of things I could adjust to and I thought okay but overall the change in build and rotations I found useful were dreadful to play. The animation alone heavily tainted my view going into it and that’s why I gave a few more hours to it but it didn’t help. Could list a thousand other things I’m upset with over Templar but there’s already enough post all over by everyone repeatedly bringing those issues up. I understand where you’re coming from but even if my templar was suddenly op meta in these changes I don’t think I’d get past the jabs and I can understand that anyone taking a glance at it wouldn’t even have it in them to give it a shot. It’s 100% an attachment to that nostalgia of falling in love with and building a character of something that heavily defined it for many, so irrational or not there’s people who’d rather go without than be degraded to a drunk butler swinging a decorative coat rack animation. Some folks love it and that’s fine- my view is keep ‘em all. Adjust dmg so the output is the same between animations and if ppl morph it to the new version cause the need help weaving that’s fine. If others morph it to the classic look and had no issue weaving it seems it would make everyone happy.

You checked it out yourself. Can't fault your opinion. Everyone should do the same if possible. But honestly as you said, "nostalgia" is the biggest issue here. If the animation was always like the PTS, and they were suddenly changing it to the current live version, I am confident we'd see the same reactions. Things change. If you don't want to play templar anymore, don't. If you don't want to play the game anymore, don't. The issue I brought up is trying to use polls mostly populated by votes from people who watched a youtube video.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

The problem with these polls and promoting them with any sort of scientific finding, is that people who have not even downloaded the pts let alone logged in and played are voting. I certainly can understand that concerns of the community but it's disingenuous to pretend like someone who is just mad about jabs animation is being objective and constructive.

However there is a large part of the player population who cannot access PTS. For each person who is mad about the jabs animation, there may be a person who has been reading the patch notes and understanding the impact without being able to test it.

You can't understand the impact without actually playing it. Can you form a basic opinion by reading the notes? Yes. Is that opinion fully informed? No.

Disagree. There is so much data and so many live streams from the pts. Uninformed opinion would mean their was no basis, that is simply not true.

What data? All we have are people's opinions. Some are informed. Others are not.

There are literally hundreds of logs posted on discord from countless people who spent hrs testing various sets, builds, and content, including some that tested my exact build. There are streams from pts from folks at the meta level to causal players and everything between. That is hard data, not opinion and that is why some of the changes were made in later weeks. What exactly qualifies as data to you? People did spreadsheets and graphs for data, that's how much was available.

1. A log dump of gameplay is data. The interpretation is not fact. It's one person's opinion of what that data means.

2. I was not talking about people who actively tested the pts changes, logged data, interpreted that data, and streamed video of the gameplay.

I was clearly talking about the 99% of the players who did none of those things but have flooded these polls, and those who are trying to use the poll results as some sort of scientific theory.

My prediction, which is of course opinion, not fact, is that if you take all the players that give the game a break in protest and waited, most of them will at some point try out the update and realize not a lot has changed, and what substantial changes were made by and large won't prevent them from having fun.

We shall see!

merpins

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ninjagank wrote: »

My prediction, which is of course opinion, not fact, is that if you take all the players that give the game a break in protest and waited, most of them will at some point try out the update and realize not a lot has changed, and what substantial changes were made by and large won't prevent them from having fun.

We shall see!

My prediction is there will be no significant changes on U35 release, which is usually the case between the final PTS week and release. A good chunk of veteran players, an amount of which exceeds the Morrowind update exodus, will quit the game, either never to return or to not return for at least a year, and there will also be a fairly large number of players that will take a 3-month break from the game and come back IF U36 seems promising based on the week 1 PTS patch notes for that update.

DrSlaughtr

merpins wrote: »

.

ninjagank wrote: »

My prediction, which is of course opinion, not fact, is that if you take all the players that give the game a break in protest and waited, most of them will at some point try out the update and realize not a lot has changed, and what substantial changes were made by and large won't prevent them from having fun.

We shall see!

My prediction is there will be no significant changes on U35 release, which is usually the case between the final PTS week and release. A good chunk of veteran players, an amount of which exceeds the Morrowind update exodus, will quit the game, either never to return or to not return for at least a year, and there will also be a fairly large number of players that will take a 3-month break from the game and come back IF U36 seems promising based on the week 1 PTS patch notes for that update.

I've talked to my fair share of veteran players. And by that I mean 2000+ CP sweaty math nerds who do nothing but obsess over the numbers.

While we all have issues with aspects of the update, we all are very unhappy with the game as delivered with High Isle. And yet we've kept playing to one degree or another knowing that the next update will at least address what was the most egregious introduction of game breaking sets and class changes in modern memory.

So while yes we may not love the LA/HA changes or we may poopoo the new jab animation, or oh our ridiculously high dps might get reigned in and some trials might be slightly harder, none of those things are remotely worse than having every BG decided by Rite of Passage spamming or every keep battle decided by who has the most corrosive spammers.

These of course are just opinions, not facts.

Astrid

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

it's going to be really good. gap. access.

lol, it’s actually the opposite

merpins

Astrid wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

it's going to be really good. gap. access.

lol, it’s actually the opposite

Right?

TinyDragon

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

These polls don’t mean much. It’s biased nonsense. The only thing that means anything is what their revenue numbers are and what they look like compared to expected values. I like the patch and will be buying a crown item to show my support

Exactly; it's amazing to see people say this is absolutely not a vocal minority, when all the forum posts are about the same total votes - 250-300. Seems likely to me it's the same people, up in arms.

Saying 11,000 people voted seems quite far fetched. Totals votes, not total players.

PrincessOfThieves

TinyDragon wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

These polls don’t mean much. It’s biased nonsense. The only thing that means anything is what their revenue numbers are and what they look like compared to expected values. I like the patch and will be buying a crown item to show my support

Exactly; it's amazing to see people say this is absolutely not a vocal minority, when all the forum posts are about the same total votes - 250-300. Seems likely to me it's the same people, up in arms.

Saying 11,000 people voted seems quite far fetched. Totals votes, not total players.

I don't buy this. I see the same general attitude on every pve discord. Groups are getting disbanded etc.
And while technically they might still be the minority, it's gonna be much, much worse when the majority will see the effects of this patch. The majority of players might not pay attention to patch notes, but they will surely notice that they're getting weaker.