New Dark Cloak: calculations and thoughts?

jecks33

with 45k HP:

Live: 9.2% of your max hp every second = 4140 healing per second

Next Patch: 4140 - 42% nerf = 2401 healing per second, but if you don't move you get 150% more healing: 2401 + 150% = 6003 healing per second.


Looks like a buff for tanks but I don't like the new functionality. Anyway it's better than last weeks.

I don't know, what's your opinion?

Sandman929

I think they fretted for a month on this skill because they got it into their heads that it was a problem in PvP...it wasn't, but since they know nothing about PvP or its problems they don't know better.

edward_frigidhands

I don't really understand how this skill is a problem in PvP when Dragon Knights can run Corrosive as an Ultimate and heal 45% (with class buffs and passives) of missing health per cast of Green Dragon Blood.

Heals with an alternate morph are reportedly just as good if not better.

I wish we were provided some additional context or information regarding how or why this is being perceived as an issue.

Foxtrot39

The good thing is you heal more than before

The bad thing you have to stay in stupid to get any meanigfull healing out of it now or dodge and waste ressources

Problem is most trial/dungeon kinda punish you with hard hitting AOE or oneshot for standing still...

Stx

The changes to this skill over the last 4 weeks is a perfect example of the incompetence of the balancing team. Multiple changes to an ability that wasn't a problem at all, they make it almost useless, then instead of just reverting it to the fine live version, they come up with some new fangled mechanic like having to stand still. Ooo so fun! Great job zos!

Firstmep

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I don't really understand how this skill is a problem in PvP when Dragon Knights can run Corrosive as an Ultimate and heal 45% (with class buffs and passives) of missing health per cast of Green Dragon Blood.

Heals with an alternate morph are reportedly just as good if not better.

I wish we were provided some additional context or information regarding how or why this is being perceived as an issue.

Dark Cloak is a very strong heal over time, unlike Dragons blood, it doesnt have to be spammed, so you can use other heals in tandem.
Btw on live you can reach 4-5k healing per second with dark cloak without going overboard with max hp, and then stack more heals on top. Its actually the strongest heal over time in the game.

Iron_Blurr

I like the idea of changing skills scaling in pve vs pvp. And while I do like this version of dark cloak better than the last version I still don't like the no movement condition. I wish it was not based on movement. Certain trials are very movement heavy and if moving costs you a lot of healing all you will be left with is a nerf to your heals when you need them and a buff to your heals when you are standing still and don't need them.

MashmalloMan

I started laughing when I read the notes.

You know how people said it feels like ZOS is saying there is only 1 way to play NB, as a ganker. This just solidifies that. The choice between giving up on demand stealth for a health scaling hot was a clear choice between Ganker and Brawler, now it's Ganker and Tank.

The Brawler mentality worked for Tank, Tank doesn't work for Brawler.

They could of easily nerfed the value from lives 10% to 6% then added the PTS's scaling, something like +150% the lower your health.

I'm sorry, but any mechanic you introduce that requires you to stand still is just poorly designed and anti fun.

"Welcome to ESO, fast paced combat, cast anything when you want, no cooldowns, play as you want.. but also.. if you're a NB, stand still so you can get a reliable health scaling heal"

Foxtrot39

Firstmep wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I don't really understand how this skill is a problem in PvP when Dragon Knights can run Corrosive as an Ultimate and heal 45% (with class buffs and passives) of missing health per cast of Green Dragon Blood.

Heals with an alternate morph are reportedly just as good if not better.

I wish we were provided some additional context or information regarding how or why this is being perceived as an issue.

Dark Cloak is a very strong heal over time, unlike Dragons blood, it doesnt have to be spammed, so you can use other heals in tandem.
Btw on live you can reach 4-5k healing per second with dark cloak without going overboard with max hp, and then stack more heals on top. Its actually the strongest heal over time in the game.

Difference is dark cloak now doesn't heal you for 50ish% over 5s but 30ish% if you have to move, GDB is a 50% burst

Both basicaly cost the same, cloak being only 300 mag cheaper

edward_frigidhands

Firstmep wrote: »

Dark Cloak is a very strong heal over time, unlike Dragons blood, it doesnt have to be spammed, so you can use other heals in tandem.
Btw on live you can reach 4-5k healing per second with dark cloak without going overboard with max hp, and then stack more heals on top. Its actually the strongest heal over time in the game.

You need to be within range of 40,000 and 50,000 health to reach those numbers. You won't be reaching those numbers as anything other than a Tank and as a tank the numbers it is able to achieve need to be comparable with Dragon's Blood in order to maintain viability.

You can't really make the argument for alternate healing here for one and not the other. Dark Cloak can be combined with a weak on demand heal same as Dragon Blood can be combined with a weak HoT. This leaves us back at Square One, different abilities will obvious be different and have interesting interactions with non-class abilities.

The goal should be to maintain perspective and check the results for context rather than assume the relative strength of a single ability in a vacuum.

You could make the same arguments to nerf Green Dragon Blood since it is the "strongest single target heal" in the game.

ccfeeling

Nice change.

React

From a pvp perspective, I really dislike this change and their reasoning for it.

They're so worried about the heal overperforming that they're going to make it terrible unless you stand still, which is impossible in pvp during any situation that it matters in.

I wish they'd have just given us a consistent heal over time, rather than one that just fits both sides of the game poorly.

Kusto

Other than in Crag trials, I cant think of any other where tank stands still.

ccfeeling

PVE perspective

I think the change not really bad tho .

Tank moves a lot , we still have a not really bad HOT during moving and excellent healing while not moving . Most of the cases controlled by the tank unless some environment mechanics happen .

Tank moves but not frequently , most efficiency clear , tank pulls and taunts all mobs , stay at same spot and let DPS burn them down .

One more advantage , I can have more confidence to pick up the group with this change at worst moment .
e.g. DOM HM , down stair fight .

I usually slot Spell Wall ultimate for specific hard contents or just simply play my Necro tank , b/c healer may die easily . 40k-ish HP NB tank , about 6k HOT / sec , I can rev the died member easily with new DC and Spirit Mastery CP , that's awesome .

I love all class tanks and not giving up NB tank at U35

Thanks Dev for listening !

Ratzkifal

I think I would have prefered a "while bracing" rather than "while standing still" condition. Tanks need to move in PvE too but they rarely drop block and making it "while bracing" makes it so that it doesn't require any attacks to be successfully blocked.
I know this would be used in PvP, but I honestly don't think it would be that bad.

But anything is better than the stupid first iteration of it.

umagon

I think the 150% increase should be “while using 5 pieces or more of heavy armor”. Tanks need to move in pve end game, some mechanics will just absolutely put them on the ground if they don’t. I don’t understand their logic behind the change being related to pvp. I mean don’t they realize in pvp full on tankblades can hit 38k+ health while having 30k+ resource pools that can drive multiple sources of healing.

Standing still is meaningless because most of the time when pvp tankblade players are doing so is when they are blocking. So now zos has just basically boosted the healing more so in pvp then it once was.

And I can’t image this change is targeting pvp brawlerblade builds because those use weapon and/or spell damage to drive most of their healing output. So, its like zos just made bunch of changes just to end up back the start.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Use it with Meditate

Ratzkifal

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Use it with Meditate

Good point. That might even work in PvP.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Dark Cloak is a very strong heal over time, unlike Dragons blood, it doesnt have to be spammed, so you can use other heals in tandem.
Btw on live you can reach 4-5k healing per second with dark cloak without going overboard with max hp, and then stack more heals on top. Its actually the strongest heal over time in the game.

You need to be within range of 40,000 and 50,000 health to reach those numbers. You won't be reaching those numbers as anything other than a Tank and as a tank the numbers it is able to achieve need to be comparable with Dragon's Blood in order to maintain viability.

You can't really make the argument for alternate healing here for one and not the other. Dark Cloak can be combined with a weak on demand heal same as Dragon Blood can be combined with a weak HoT. This leaves us back at Square One, different abilities will obvious be different and have interesting interactions with non-class abilities.

The goal should be to maintain perspective and check the results for context rather than assume the relative strength of a single ability in a vacuum.

You could make the same arguments to nerf Green Dragon Blood since it is the "strongest single target heal" in the game.

You can reach over 40k if you have Blood Scion.

Hotdog_23

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Use it with Meditate

lol, I bet ZOS never even thought about that as an option.

Stay safe

Brrrofski

Stx wrote: »

The changes to this skill over the last 4 weeks is a perfect example of the incompetence of the balancing team. Multiple changes to an ability that wasn't a problem at all, they make it almost useless, then instead of just reverting it to the fine live version, they come up with some new fangled mechanic like having to stand still. Ooo so fun! Great job zos!

Exactly my thoughts.

Why is it changing at all?

ZOS, you said it's to make it strong in pve but not too strong in PvP.

Want to know how to do it?

LEAVE IT AS IT IS. It's one of the most balanced skills on live.

It's a good heal in PVE. That's not what people's complaints are when it comes to NB tanking.

In PvP, it's decent and worth slotting.but nobody, and I mean NOBODY, thought it was too strong.

Nobody's out here complaining about NB healing lol. You might want to look at DKs and Templars if you're trying to fix 'op' healing in PvP.

Honestly, this screams that not one person there plays PvP. Or if they do, not very well. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but it's blatantly obvious.

The skill has changed THREE times on PTS. No clear vision. Changes for the sake of it.

Can you share why you're changing dark cloak please? This kills it for PvP. Which kills any other style of playing NB other than cloak. Boring.

Firstmep

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think I would have prefered a "while bracing" rather than "while standing still" condition. Tanks need to move in PvE too but they rarely drop block and making it "while bracing" makes it so that it doesn't require any attacks to be successfully blocked.
I know this would be used in PvP, but I honestly don't think it would be that bad.

But anything is better than the stupid first iteration of it.

I think bracing would be an interesting compromise for sure.

jecks33

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think I would have prefered a "while bracing" rather than "while standing still" condition. Tanks need to move in PvE too but they rarely drop block and making it "while bracing" makes it so that it doesn't require any attacks to be successfully blocked.
I know this would be used in PvP, but I honestly don't think it would be that bad.

But anything is better than the stupid first iteration of it.

That's a great idea, I wonder why the devs didn't think of that solution

virt_eso

For PVE:

I actually tank on night blade, and I'm not at all excited for this in PVE, I can think of multiple DLC dungeon hardmode fights my group has done where holding still just isn't an option and honestly it shouldn't be. No one wants to stand still, it's boring. Even for bosses that don't move often, I still want to be able to sidestep the boss and chain in the adds as they spawn to make for the smoothest runs. Or to be able to move out of the deadly AOE DoTs that get placed at my feet constantly. It will just feel like a wasted skill slot with no real benefit. I will be benching my NB tank in favor of another class.


For PVP:

The Gank Night Blade is at its peak, and they get buffed massively for some reason. Brawler night blade playstyle is struggling to keep up and they nerf the one skill that was at the core of its concept. I mean the heal was barely enough to make brawl-blade work on live as is. It's completely gutted now and I'm so disappointed. That's another character that I will not be playing anymore.

If anyone from the Dev team reads this, I say just count your losses on time spent on this skill and let it go. Keep it how it is on live. This may be anecdotal, but my entire discord server thinks it's a bad change and none of us understand why gankers keep getting buffed and poor little brawl blade is left at the wayside.

virt_eso

For PVE:

I actually tank on night blade, and I'm not at all excited for this in PVE, I can think of multiple DLC dungeon hardmode fights my group has done where holding still just isn't an option and honestly it shouldn't be. No one wants to stand still, it's boring. Even for bosses that don't move often, I still want to be able to sidestep the boss and chain in the adds as they spawn to make for the smoothest runs. Or to be able to move out of the deadly AOE DoTs that get placed at my feet constantly. It will just feel like a wasted skill slot with no real benefit. I will be benching my NB tank in favor of another class.


For PVP:

The Gank Night Blade is at its peak, and they get buffed massively for some reason. Brawler night blade playstyle is struggling to keep up and they nerf the one skill that was at the core of its concept. I mean the heal was barely enough to make brawl-blade work on live as is. It's completely gutted now and I'm so disappointed. That's another character that I will not be playing anymore.

If anyone from the Dev team reads this, I say just count your losses on time spent on this skill and let it go. Keep it how it is on live. This may be anecdotal, but my entire discord server thinks it's a bad change and none of us understand why gankers keep getting buffed and poor little brawl blade is left at the wayside.

velt88_ESO

jecks33 wrote: »

with 45k HP:

Live: 9.2% of your max hp every second = 4140 healing per second

Next Patch: 4140 - 42% nerf = 2401 healing per second, but if you don't move you get 150% more healing: 2401 + 150% = 6003 healing per second.


Looks like a buff for tanks but I don't like the new functionality. Anyway it's better than last weeks.

I don't know, what's your opinion?

I value my mobility -- even when tanking, so it isn't a buff for me.

code65536

I think the changes are fine for PvE tanks.

1. The movement check appears to be very responsive. For example, if I roll dodge, I get a weak heal tick during the dodge, but the next heal tick immediately after completing the roll is full strength. So the penalty for movement doesn't "persist" and goes away as soon as the movement ends.
2. Movement ticks are 58% of what they are on live. Static ticks are 145% of what they are on Live. So if you move, stop, move, stop and every other tick is a weak tick, you'll be getting the same amount of healing as you are right now on Live.
3. Movement caused by an enemy (e.g., not blocking an attack with a knockback ability) does not penalize your healing.

Yes, PvE tanks do have to move, but you're usually not constantly moving. You're usually moving in bursts and then standing still, and the movement check here is sufficiently granular.

Ragnaroek93

Just lol at this "buff"...

MentalxHammer

There is a universal sentiment among players in basically all video games that a loss of mobility or control of your character is not enjoyable at all. This change does not promote fun or rewarding gameplay. It’s a joke that this now extremely weak skill will be the morph of one of the most powerful class defining skills in the game, shadowy disguise.

What’s even more nonsensical is seeing dark cloak’s severe nerf when vigor is being reverted to its healing values on the live server. Why is vigor, a skill that every class has access to vastly stronger than a class heal that defines the brawl NB play style? This goes against the sentiment that ZOS has expressed multiple times that class abilities should have advantages over skills that can be used universally.

I understand 8.1.4 is the final iteration of the PTS, but please listen to your player base and just revert this unnecessary change when the the final notes drop.

zammo

React wrote: »

From a pvp perspective, I really dislike this change and their reasoning for it.

They're so worried about the heal overperforming that they're going to make it terrible unless you stand still, which is impossible in pvp during any situation that it matters in.

I wish they'd have just given us a consistent heal over time, rather than one that just fits both sides of the game poorly.

From a PVP perspective I also hate this change, and the reasoning for it is just a straight kick to the nut sack. The developer comments basically say this is a PVE tank only skill, and it should have no viable application anywhere else.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think I would have prefered a "while bracing" rather than "while standing still" condition. Tanks need to move in PvE too but they rarely drop block and making it "while bracing" makes it so that it doesn't require any attacks to be successfully blocked.
I know this would be used in PvP, but I honestly don't think it would be that bad.

But anything is better than the stupid first iteration of it.

I could get on board with this.

Jazraena

code65536 wrote: »

I think the changes are fine for PvE tanks.

1. The movement check appears to be very responsive. For example, if I roll dodge, I get a weak heal tick during the dodge, but the next heal tick immediately after completing the roll is full strength. So the penalty for movement doesn't "persist" and goes away as soon as the movement ends.
2. Movement ticks are 58% of what they are on live. Static ticks are 145% of what they are on Live. So if you move, stop, move, stop and every other tick is a weak tick, you'll be getting the same amount of healing as you are right now on Live.
3. Movement caused by an enemy (e.g., not blocking an attack with a knockback ability) does not penalize your healing.

Yes, PvE tanks do have to move, but you're usually not constantly moving. You're usually moving in bursts and then standing still, and the movement check here is sufficiently granular.

I can't find myself fully agreeing with this, but there is a more important question here IMHO: Under the umbrella of Accessibility, how is this a good thing?