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Oakensoul is Still a 20% Nerf

  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
    And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

    I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.


    a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

    Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

    How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

    Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

    I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

    So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

    The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

    So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

    You're misquoting me and doing math wrong. You subtract the difference. It was doing about 40-50% less damage than a 2-bar build in the previous pts, and 15-25% on live. And the only builds that did 15% on live were stam sorcs.

    Following up on this, and kind of proving my point. If the ring is a 20% nerf from live, is it just the RING or is it a total parse.

    That is the important distinction. Because ALL builds are nerfed from live. All of them. So just by the very nature of the PTS nerfs for all builds, Oakensoul will be nerfed.

    Which is why, comparing % nerfs to live needs context.

    Already went over this and gave context. It's the whole parse; the nerfs are blanket nerfs. 10% crit damage, 200 weapon and spell damage, 5% general damage, 1.5 ult gen. These nerfs to the ring effect your total damage. It's not like it's just effecting a set that deals damage and that damage is being adjusted, it's effecting your total effectiveness. That should be obvious based on what the ring is and shouldn't even be a question [snip]
    And to answer your previous question, if you use percentiles, it doesnt matter what your DPS is. It scales up and down. If you were to test it with relequen, a piece of slimecraw, and i guess medusa's on a stamina warden and deal 60k dps, then test it with sea serpent's coil or something and add a backbar, it'll be consistent even when you do a magicka nb build with war maiden's and pillars of nirn; regardless of how good or bad the build is, percentiles should be consistent and if they are, the math is correct. So that question is also not necessary, [snip]


    So this proves my point then. The ring is just as effective live as it is on PTS. If you are judging a PARSE on live to a PARSE on PTS.

    EVERY single build lost around 20-25% DPS. Every build. So if Oakensoul parse from live to PTS lost 20% damage, then it is literally just in line with every other build being nerfed on PTS. You cannot judge a parse on live to a parse on PTS and say the difference is due to Oakensoul adjustments, since this patch is nerfing all builds. The PTS doesn't just include Oakensoul changes in a vaccum, which is what your post is trying to say. That Oakensoul alone accounts for a 20% damage nerf. Which is false.

    And, in fact, if using Heavy attacks now makes that nerf less, that means that comparatively, Oakensoul is stronger on PTS than on live for a heavy attack build, compared to other builds. So, for a disabled player who needs a crutch, something not having to worry about weaving and using heavy attacks absolutely provides, the ring is buffed.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 2, 2022 2:21PM
  • Vahndamme
    Vahndamme
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    Marto wrote: »
    Riptide wrote: »
    I don’t know why they don’t put major slayer on it, which would stack with the minor slayer easily attainable from norm trials, and make the ring instantly useful. And by definition not break PVP.

    Because Major Slayer is an extremely powerful and rare buff.

    Well . . . Oakensoul is a Mythic? Mythic is powerful and rare also? Or well should be? Like Kilt has been staple for PvE trials for looooooooooooooong time now. Yet Oakensoul was yeeted so fast and so hard the moment it came. Like people bought expansion, thinking they'll have some time with it and bam it's gone. It's some niche HA ring now that everybody will flick in the bank. Adding both Minor and Major Slayer/Aegis to the ring raises the floor for any user. The rest can stay the same, heck even remove the Empower. (even if it gets its 40% to LA back). Just Minor and Major versions on it and it's a good ring to get people into trials. First people without trial set will get trial set; minor becomes useless or they run two non trial sets and have more options in sets. Like I honestly don't see why this is an issue? No way top end groups will run Oakensoul because 2bars is always way stronger in that environment... With supports and all that.

    I mean "Mayor Slayer" is an extremely powerful and rare buff but yet they add it to the trial dummy? EC is way more common and it's not on it. Like they just rolling dice atm it feels like. Rolling and hoping whatever comes out, might stick.
  • merpins
    merpins
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
    And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

    I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.


    a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

    Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

    How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

    Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

    I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

    So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

    The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

    So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

    You're misquoting me and doing math wrong. You subtract the difference. It was doing about 40-50% less damage than a 2-bar build in the previous pts, and 15-25% on live. And the only builds that did 15% on live were stam sorcs.

    Following up on this, and kind of proving my point. If the ring is a 20% nerf from live, is it just the RING or is it a total parse.

    That is the important distinction. Because ALL builds are nerfed from live. All of them. So just by the very nature of the PTS nerfs for all builds, Oakensoul will be nerfed.

    Which is why, comparing % nerfs to live needs context.

    Already went over this and gave context. It's the whole parse; the nerfs are blanket nerfs. 10% crit damage, 200 weapon and spell damage, 5% general damage, 1.5 ult gen. These nerfs to the ring effect your total damage. It's not like it's just effecting a set that deals damage and that damage is being adjusted, it's effecting your total effectiveness. That should be obvious based on what the ring is and shouldn't even be a question [snip]
    And to answer your previous question, if you use percentiles, it doesnt matter what your DPS is. It scales up and down. If you were to test it with relequen, a piece of slimecraw, and i guess medusa's on a stamina warden and deal 60k dps, then test it with sea serpent's coil or something and add a backbar, it'll be consistent even when you do a magicka nb build with war maiden's and pillars of nirn; regardless of how good or bad the build is, percentiles should be consistent and if they are, the math is correct. So that question is also not necessary, [snip]


    So this proves my point then. The ring is just as effective live as it is on PTS. If you are judging a PARSE on live to a PARSE on PTS.

    [snip] 25% is from the ring. This is ON TOP of what you lose from all the other nerfs. For example, the build I was actually using, a stam sorc without crystal weapons, lost about 45% of its damage in PTS 1. I'm comparing parses on live to parses in the PTS, comparing them based on the damage differences between oakensoul builds and non-oakensoul builds, and seeing just how much damage is lost in both cases. [snip]

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 5, 2022 6:51PM
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    C'mon, people.

    They released an item that was way over tuned. Everyone knew it. The forum was full of statements during Update 34 PTS. Youtube was full of commentary. It was no secret to anyone that what they released on live was not only too powerful, it drastically would reshape the landscape and create harmful play styles leading to toxic behavior in PVP.

    IF they had released what is currently on PTS with U34, there would have been no complaints that it was under powered. There probably would have been quite a few issues of concern still stated. The problem here is players were given a Lamborghini while 2 bar players were left with a Mustang. It completely overtook the game.

    Everyone needs to just accept the fact that it was too powerful and its current PTS version is actually rather acceptable. You do not need Major Slayer or Aegis to run around overland. These only affect trial and dungeon monsters anyway. You're also getting the new version of empower to help boost your damage.

    They want you to group up and learn from other players. If you choose to run solo open world and just want to run around killing NPCs and collecting resources, then that is a choice you make, but it will never allow you to progress vertically in regards to both power and skill.

    Again, if the point of the ring (as they have stated) is to help people with accessibility issues be able to play the game easier, the current PTS version will still do that. As has been pointed out, -everyone- has their damage nerfed this patch. It's across the board. So yes, oak also is seeing a DPS reduction.
    I drink and I stream things.
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
    And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

    I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.


    a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

    Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

    How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

    Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

    I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

    So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

    The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

    So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

    You're misquoting me and doing math wrong. You subtract the difference. It was doing about 40-50% less damage than a 2-bar build in the previous pts, and 15-25% on live. And the only builds that did 15% on live were stam sorcs.

    Following up on this, and kind of proving my point. If the ring is a 20% nerf from live, is it just the RING or is it a total parse.

    That is the important distinction. Because ALL builds are nerfed from live. All of them. So just by the very nature of the PTS nerfs for all builds, Oakensoul will be nerfed.

    Which is why, comparing % nerfs to live needs context.

    Already went over this and gave context. It's the whole parse; the nerfs are blanket nerfs. 10% crit damage, 200 weapon and spell damage, 5% general damage, 1.5 ult gen. These nerfs to the ring effect your total damage. It's not like it's just effecting a set that deals damage and that damage is being adjusted, it's effecting your total effectiveness. That should be obvious based on what the ring is and shouldn't even be a question [snip]
    And to answer your previous question, if you use percentiles, it doesnt matter what your DPS is. It scales up and down. If you were to test it with relequen, a piece of slimecraw, and i guess medusa's on a stamina warden and deal 60k dps, then test it with sea serpent's coil or something and add a backbar, it'll be consistent even when you do a magicka nb build with war maiden's and pillars of nirn; regardless of how good or bad the build is, percentiles should be consistent and if they are, the math is correct. So that question is also not necessary, [snip]


    So this proves my point then. The ring is just as effective live as it is on PTS. If you are judging a PARSE on live to a PARSE on PTS.

    [snip] 25% is from the ring. This is ON TOP of what you lose from all the other nerfs. For example, the build I was actually using, a stam sorc without crystal weapons, lost about 45% of its damage in PTS 1. I'm comparing parses on live to parses in the PTS, comparing them based on the damage differences between oakensoul builds and non-oakensoul builds, and seeing just how much damage is lost in both cases. [snip]

    [snip]

    But, to parse through what you are saying here...

    From LIVE to PTS 1, your Oakensoul build lost 45% DPS.

    Now, in this new patch, your Oakensoul build lost another 25% DPS.

    So, from live, you are saying that your Oakensoul build has now lost 70% DPS.

    You see why I am trying to get you to clarify things. You keep throwing %s around without the context and it is incredibly confusing. There is a 0% chance your build is doing 70% less DPS than live now, which is exactly what this paragraph I am replying to is saying.

    [edited for baiting & to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 5, 2022 6:52PM
  • Toxic_Hemlock
    Toxic_Hemlock
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    Meh, back to the "bargain bin" for this mythic. Had they gone with just separating minor/major for PvP and PvE, I would have kept using it.

    On the bright side I get my speed boost back with wild hunt, and I don't need to switch out the ring to use my bow when fighting bosses. And I spent weeks sitting at a chest trying to get the last lead. NEVER AGAIN!
  • merpins
    merpins
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    Meh, back to the "bargain bin" for this mythic. Had they gone with just separating minor/major for PvP and PvE, I would have kept using it.

    On the bright side I get my speed boost back with wild hunt, and I don't need to switch out the ring to use my bow when fighting bosses. And I spent weeks sitting at a chest trying to get the last lead. NEVER AGAIN!

    Yeah, even with the buff it doesn't add much more than 5% back to the DPS lost from the nerf. Unless you're using a heavy attack build, but since empower is currently broken on the ring in the PTS, you can't test if it's actually even good for that. It might not be since you can't back-bar a maelstrom staff, so HA builds with the ring might not even be good. Maybe learning how to medium attack, but I mean that's not great either. It's definitely a bin item in its current state for most people.
  • Stx
    Stx
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    1) The ring is not overperforming in pve on live. A lot of people are using it, but that doesn't mean it's overperforming. It could mean that a single bar playstyle with 5 active abilities is more fun to play with than two bars where you have to recast maintenance buffs.

    2) The switch from major to minor buffs is a lot larger of a nerf than it seems, because in a group setting, those minor buffs are all covered, and in a solo setting some classes already have access to a lot of those minor buffs.

    3) Minor slayer / aegis don't come close to making up for the loss of major buffs, but its a start. Empower is useless now for everything except niche heavy attack builds.
  • merpins
    merpins
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
    And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

    I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.


    a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

    Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

    How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

    Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

    I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

    So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

    The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

    So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

    You're misquoting me and doing math wrong. You subtract the difference. It was doing about 40-50% less damage than a 2-bar build in the previous pts, and 15-25% on live. And the only builds that did 15% on live were stam sorcs.

    Following up on this, and kind of proving my point. If the ring is a 20% nerf from live, is it just the RING or is it a total parse.

    That is the important distinction. Because ALL builds are nerfed from live. All of them. So just by the very nature of the PTS nerfs for all builds, Oakensoul will be nerfed.

    Which is why, comparing % nerfs to live needs context.

    Already went over this and gave context. It's the whole parse; the nerfs are blanket nerfs. 10% crit damage, 200 weapon and spell damage, 5% general damage, 1.5 ult gen. These nerfs to the ring effect your total damage. It's not like it's just effecting a set that deals damage and that damage is being adjusted, it's effecting your total effectiveness. That should be obvious based on what the ring is and shouldn't even be a question [snip]
    And to answer your previous question, if you use percentiles, it doesnt matter what your DPS is. It scales up and down. If you were to test it with relequen, a piece of slimecraw, and i guess medusa's on a stamina warden and deal 60k dps, then test it with sea serpent's coil or something and add a backbar, it'll be consistent even when you do a magicka nb build with war maiden's and pillars of nirn; regardless of how good or bad the build is, percentiles should be consistent and if they are, the math is correct. So that question is also not necessary, [snip]


    So this proves my point then. The ring is just as effective live as it is on PTS. If you are judging a PARSE on live to a PARSE on PTS.

    [snip] 25% is from the ring. This is ON TOP of what you lose from all the other nerfs. For example, the build I was actually using, a stam sorc without crystal weapons, lost about 45% of its damage in PTS 1. I'm comparing parses on live to parses in the PTS, comparing them based on the damage differences between oakensoul builds and non-oakensoul builds, and seeing just how much damage is lost in both cases. [snip]

    Okay rather then trying to clarify anything, let's try something different. How about hands-on experience.

    Try going on live and making a competent build with the ring. If you have Relequen for example, you could try for a build with relequen + something else (though keeping in mind the PTS, you might want to try a different set since the main buff to the ring is minor slayer). Just grab some good sets that make for decent DPS builds you might have on one of your toons, or in your bank. Since you'd just be testing it, you don't need to reconstruct anything. Don't do a heavy attack build by the way; empower is currently broken on the PTS ring so you'll deal a ton less damage than you should if you opt to go that route.

    Try to make a good build and test it out. Kill a world boss, try some overland content in High Isle, run a dungeon or two, and record your parses on the trial dummy as well as the 3m dummy. Then go into the PTS, and try the same build. Try a little overland content, a world boss, and record your parse. Keep in mind, in the pts the trial dummy gained Major Courage and Major Slayer, as well as a couple other debuffs, so recording your DPS on both the trial dummy and the 3m dummy on live is just so you can get the % difference between your 3m parses. If you find out the % difference between those parses, you can use that % to see how much damage you need to subtract from your live trial dummy parse by multiplying the % as a decimal by your live trial parse, and then subtracting the result from said trial parse. You can then record a trial parse on the PTS to see if it's accurate.

    If you do all that, you'll get a good idea for the damage lost. Or even just try a dungeon and some overland content without recording parses, you'll feel the difference.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 5, 2022 6:53PM
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
    And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

    I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.


    a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

    Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

    How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

    Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

    I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

    So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

    The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

    So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

    You're misquoting me and doing math wrong. You subtract the difference. It was doing about 40-50% less damage than a 2-bar build in the previous pts, and 15-25% on live. And the only builds that did 15% on live were stam sorcs.

    Following up on this, and kind of proving my point. If the ring is a 20% nerf from live, is it just the RING or is it a total parse.

    That is the important distinction. Because ALL builds are nerfed from live. All of them. So just by the very nature of the PTS nerfs for all builds, Oakensoul will be nerfed.

    Which is why, comparing % nerfs to live needs context.

    Already went over this and gave context. It's the whole parse; the nerfs are blanket nerfs. 10% crit damage, 200 weapon and spell damage, 5% general damage, 1.5 ult gen. These nerfs to the ring effect your total damage. It's not like it's just effecting a set that deals damage and that damage is being adjusted, it's effecting your total effectiveness. That should be obvious based on what the ring is and shouldn't even be a question [snip]
    And to answer your previous question, if you use percentiles, it doesnt matter what your DPS is. It scales up and down. If you were to test it with relequen, a piece of slimecraw, and i guess medusa's on a stamina warden and deal 60k dps, then test it with sea serpent's coil or something and add a backbar, it'll be consistent even when you do a magicka nb build with war maiden's and pillars of nirn; regardless of how good or bad the build is, percentiles should be consistent and if they are, the math is correct. So that question is also not necessary, [snip]


    So this proves my point then. The ring is just as effective live as it is on PTS. If you are judging a PARSE on live to a PARSE on PTS.

    [snip] 25% is from the ring. This is ON TOP of what you lose from all the other nerfs. For example, the build I was actually using, a stam sorc without crystal weapons, lost about 45% of its damage in PTS 1. I'm comparing parses on live to parses in the PTS, comparing them based on the damage differences between oakensoul builds and non-oakensoul builds, and seeing just how much damage is lost in both cases. [snip]

    Okay rather then trying to clarify anything, let's try something different. How about hands-on experience.

    Try going on live and making a competent build with the ring. If you have Relequen for example, you could try for a build with relequen + something else (though keeping in mind the PTS, you might want to try a different set since the main buff to the ring is minor slayer). Just grab some good sets that make for decent DPS builds you might have on one of your toons, or in your bank. Since you'd just be testing it, you don't need to reconstruct anything. Don't do a heavy attack build by the way; empower is currently broken on the PTS ring so you'll deal a ton less damage than you should if you opt to go that route.

    Try to make a good build and test it out. Kill a world boss, try some overland content in High Isle, run a dungeon or two, and record your parses on the trial dummy as well as the 3m dummy. Then go into the PTS, and try the same build. Try a little overland content, a world boss, and record your parse. Keep in mind, in the pts the trial dummy gained Major Courage and Major Slayer, as well as a couple other debuffs, so recording your DPS on both the trial dummy and the 3m dummy on live is just so you can get the % difference between your 3m parses. If you find out the % difference between those parses, you can use that % to see how much damage you need to subtract from your live trial dummy parse by multiplying the % as a decimal by your live trial parse, and then subtracting the result from said trial parse. You can then record a trial parse on the PTS to see if it's accurate.

    If you do all that, you'll get a good idea for the damage lost. Or even just try a dungeon and some overland content without recording parses, you'll feel the difference.

    What you have described there is total damage loss.

    Which, again, is a result of light attack nerfs, DOT nerfs, AND Oakensoul nerfs.

    You are the one making % loss claims. So you should be the one providing the data behind that to clarify your claims.

    As it is, I can only assume that your 25% nerf number is after taking into account ALL nerfs for the patch on PTS. Which, again, is not specific to Oakensoul.

    In other words, you are trying to attribute overall nerfs for the patch as a whole to being Oakensoul nerfs. Which is not true. All builds got nerfed, running Oakensoul or not.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 5, 2022 6:54PM
  • jaws343
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    Also, and this is why I say it is on the person making the claims to provide the data, not everyone in the forums have access to the PTS. So we are literally relying on your data and information to make informed opinions. When that data isn't being clearly relayed, it is concerning when we are trying to determine the impact of changes. And, it leads to faulty narratives that get spun up.

    A very, very simple ask here would be: Show us the combat metrics, or the parse DPS from a build on live with Oakensoul and that same build in the current PTS patch. Show those two numbers. Don't try to attribute it to the Oakensoul nerf, don't mention PTS patch 1, which is now irrelevant. Just show the two numbers and what the difference between them is.
  • DrSlaughtr
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    Stx wrote: »
    1) The ring is not overperforming in pve on live. A lot of people are using it, but that doesn't mean it's overperforming. It could mean that a single bar playstyle with 5 active abilities is more fun to play with than two bars where you have to recast maintenance buffs.

    [snip]

    You currently have access to major buffs 99% of 2 bar players cannot. Courage and Berserk alone are way too strong to exist passively. Then you have heroism which can let you hit an ultimate and then hit it again in under 10 seconds. All these considered, your damage output doesn't just meet 2bars, it blows it out of the water, which was never intended.

    Secondly, because you can output massive damage, you don't need dots and you don't need second bar. This let's you focus all your resources on your attack skills. There is no down time for reapplying buffs or dots. It's constant damage pressure that no one without the ring else can match.

    Is it "more fun"? That's subjective. Even if it is, that doesn't change the fact it's current power level is too high.
    Stx wrote: »
    2) The switch from major to minor buffs is a lot larger of a nerf than it seems, because in a group setting, those minor buffs are all covered, and in a solo setting some classes already have access to a lot of those minor buffs.

    The only class that gets minor courage is NB with a morph that most people don't use.

    WW gets it.

    Otherwise you have to run sets.

    Only wardens get passive minor berserk. There are a few skills that can give you berserk but none with 100% up time.

    The only way to get minor heroism is with low slash for tanks, a small number of sets, or the most expensive potions/poisons in the game.

    There are no skills that give minor aegis or slayer and in group context these are usually provided by sets. This is actually very beneficial for an oak player better it means you don't have to farm hard to get trial gear.

    They are right to hold off on major slayer and aegis because those are exclusively on a small number of group buff sets, and for good reason.
    Stx wrote: »
    3) Minor slayer / aegis don't come close to making up for the loss of major buffs, but its a start. Empower is useless now for everything except niche heavy attack builds.

    You seem to misunderstand. They aren't going to "make up" for the damage loss because the whole point is the damage output is too high, even in pve. The good thing about switching empower to PvE only means they can balance it for PvE only.

    I understand that it's not fun walking back dps output and it should never have been released on live as is, but it's necessary. It will still be very effective.

    [Minor edit for bait.]
    Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on August 2, 2022 11:25PM
    I drink and I stream things.
  • Stx
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    Not going to bother responding to all that, because your first paragraph is inaccurate. Oakensoul on live isn't even competitive with two bar builds in pve, let alone "blowing them out of the water".
  • merpins
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    Stx wrote: »
    Not going to bother responding to all that, because your first paragraph is inaccurate. Oakensoul on live isn't even competitive with two bar builds in pve, let alone "blowing them out of the water".

    100%. It does 20% less than top end, if used by a top end player. Otherwise it's like 40% less than top end, usually even worse than that.
  • DrSlaughtr
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    Stx wrote: »
    Not going to bother responding to all that, because your first paragraph is inaccurate. Oakensoul on live isn't even competitive with two bar builds in pve, let alone "blowing them out of the water".

    And you base this on what? There are many 1bar vs 2bar comparison videos by players who have been featured streamers by ZOS. I've not seen one that is unfavorable to oak. Please fill free to message me when any videos showing otherwise.

    Between the the crit damage, crit chance, berserk and ultimate spamming, the damage potential is significantly higher.
    I drink and I stream things.
  • aurelius_fx
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    Only 20%? :(
  • FlopsyPrince
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    Maybe some of us like a one bar build we can play with an have fun. We don't have to be top of the stack or spend hours figuring out how to max out all possible ability, instead of enjoying the many things in the game!

    That is the problem with the underlying hostility to casual players.

    Do you really want to return to more grind and where you could only enjoy things if you were a top player? Is that really good when everyone cannot be a top player, by definition?

    (We are not in Lake Woebegone!)
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  • merpins
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    Only 20%? :(

    Well 20% from the ring. You still have any other nerfs introduced by the PTS as well on top of that.
  • Vahndamme
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    I said it before and I think removing empower (ps. Change empower) from the ring and adding major slayer/aegis to the ring on top of minor versions will get it in a good spot. It will raise the floor for players whom want to use it. It'll still be good when people wanna use it beyond getting trial sets. But it will not trump top tier builds by any means. 2bars are just too strong when used by people who minmax. Let the floor raise and the ring be used by a bunch of players that just wanna do content and not make it super hard for them. It's what the ring was built for. Making single bar bullds almost on par with 2bar builds. I played around some on live also with the ring and tbh I liked 2bars more, dealt more dmg with 2bars and sustain was a lot easier with 2bars. For my liking one bar felt too repetitive and lack of choice. But others might like it or need it (e.g. disability).. so just give it to them really? PvP was your main concern, well make it a strong PvE ring only and give the PvP'ers another mythic. Or just do what you could've done in the very beginning and use battle spirit to turn off certain buffs on the ring. Like "when battle spirit is active buff x and y are minor version" but no.. you change empower for a ring.. like changing so many sets, abilities etc.. the knock off effect is HUGE.
  • taugrim
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    ninjagank wrote: »
    C'mon, people.

    They released an item that was way over tuned. Everyone knew it. The forum was full of statements during Update 34 PTS. Youtube was full of commentary. It was no secret to anyone that what they released on live was not only too powerful, it drastically would reshape the landscape and create harmful play styles leading to toxic behavior in PVP.

    IF they had released what is currently on PTS with U34, there would have been no complaints that it was under powered.

    Agree 100%.

    ZoS unfortunately continued their history of releasing over-tuned items with a new chapter (see also: Hrothgar's Chill, Dark Convergence, Malacath's Ring of Brutality, etc) with Oakensoul, only to belatedly balance them after they've gone live.

    Oakensoul was absurdly broken in PVP, and I would argue for PVE it was sooooo good that...
    Stx wrote: »
    A lot of people are using it, but that doesn't mean it's overperforming.

    That argument makes no sense 🤣🤣🤣.

    "A lot of people" don't flock to things that are mediocre. "A lot of people" chase after things that are overperforming.

    There have been so many posts about people doing things with Oakensoul faster and more easily than with other setups, including 2-bar builds.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/vojmag/comment/ief1dn7/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
    Oakensoul makes it a lot easier to go much faster. I have other runs, such as this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9zXF4zFZCU&list=PLa7gTHogec6RoX9gMDlg3JyXHV8WULwdd&index=15 from two years ago, where i'm using a bow plus two crafted sets (New Moon Acolyte and Torug's Pact) along with Mighty Chudan monster helm, and I get a Flawless where i'm just light attacking.

    Also, simply look at the additional effect that Perfected Relequen adds above-and-beyond regular Relequen, it's just an additional +1096 stamina. That is going to make so little difference, particularly when just light attacking, that it's basically negligible.

    Doing it naked with Oakensoul might be tough if only light attacking. Doing it naked (no body pieces, but weapons+jewelry allowed) is probably quite possible with Oakensoul where you're using abilities, but only having 4 pieces available for a set makes the choice of set a little awkward. Though at that point, I feel like I'd need to do two separate runs, one with Oakensoul, one without, to show that it's not exactly Oakensoul, just Oakensoul makes it... safer/faster

    https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/vlvw19/comment/idxidzu/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
    Yes, Oakensoul is way more efficient. For example, don't need to run Chudan, because you get Resolve already. You also get the +430 weapon damage from Major Courage that you wouldn't have had either way. There's just so much packed into that item that makes you able to slot other stuff for various passives.

    The bow light attack run, there's a 15 minute break at the end of arena 8, because then-5-month-old baby son needed attention. So it'd only have been like.. 15-ish minutes longer than Oakensoul. But either way, I doubt i'd be able to replicate a 50 minute run only light attacking if I weren't using Oakensoul. Maybe Belharza's and a lot of practice.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/vlvw19/comment/idxidzu/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
    As a mediocre player, who pretty much only PvEs and has gotten as gud as I'm going to git, I really like the ring. I've previously gotten a 100k parse on magsorc, but translating that into a real trial is another story. I've finished vMA, but it was an almighty hair-tearing slog and trifecta was just never going to happen for me. There are a couple of world bosses (Ascendant Order) where there's just too much incoming damage for me to solo them at my level of play. With the ring, they're easy to solo on my magplar and stamsorc.

    The above quote is so telling. Things that are not doable in PVE for some players are "easy to solo" with Oakensoul.

    That is the very definition of overperforming.

    I have read many dozens of posts like this from people about PVE and Oakensoul. Tons of players know it, that's why they're raging that it's getting nerfed, because they want to maintain their faceroll. It's no different than the many DK players who were raging about the nerfs coming in Update 34 - even though at the time MagDK dominated the PVE DPS charts for trials and absolutely wrecked people in PVP. The majority of veteran players (including me) accurately projected that MagDK would still be super strong in PVE and especially PVP in Update 34 despite the nerfs.

    In a similar vein, even in its Update 35 state, Oakensoul is going to be fantastic for PVE. It vastly simplifies rotations, while still providing a cornucopia of buffs. And there are plenty of higher-MMR players in PVP who still think the ring will be strong in PVP, just not stupidly faceroll as it is on live now.

    At the end of the day, the whole Oakensoul mess - from its being introduced in a faceroll OP state to its being nerfed back to balance - is solely on the shoulders of ZoS. Players gave them tons of feedback before Update 34 was launched that it was going to be problematic, and ZoS launched it anyway.

    So don't blame other players who want to see some semblance of reasonable balance. Balance is always healthy for a game, long-term. And Oakensoul has raised the floor dramatically, esp for folks who have motor skill challenges.
    Edited by taugrim on August 4, 2022 12:46AM
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  • Dawnblade
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    I'm still confused - is it really OP as in it beats two bar setups and creates an I WIN button for PVP, or is it OP because it allows average players to perform better, or is it OP because it lets good players pull off some neat tricks for their Youtube channel, or is it OP just because well it has so many buffs it must be OP?

    From the comments on the latest patch notes, it appears the issue for ZOS was too many people using it, not necessarily dominating with it - but maybe that is telling them something regarding player's actual enjoyment of their clunky 2-bar buff buff buff combat set up they should heed.
  • merpins
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    taugrim wrote: »

    Cropping your post away on the reply since it's so long.

    Top-end players didn't touch the item because you can't perform top-end damage with it. The majority of lower end players flocked to the item because, for the most part, it made the game much easier for them. Which is the point of an accessibility item. It wasn't overperforming, it was doing its job. Sure, in PVP is was overperforming. But that should be balanced separately from PVE.

    The Oakensoul was like this; You're playing an MMO and get an absurdly powerful legendary item... But it stops being absurdly powerful because you outlevel it eventually. The only difference here is that you're not outleveling it with actual levels, but with experience put into the game, knowledge of the game's mechanics, and gear progression towards end-game content. Every single quote you're showing is of people that are at mid-game or early game, are working towards learning the game mechanics (especially that last quote), and are using the ring to do better because... Well, it's much easier to play with one bar rather than two. You can learn to weave and do rotations with that, work towards getting better gear, then once you're comfortable, switch to a more powerful two bar build.

    I mainly play at mid-game because the end game score-pushing doesn't interest me. I can do good DPS with the ring for casual play, 80k dps or so. But I can do any content in the game with my DPS's that do 100-130k dps with no problems, it's just that those builds are more complicated. Do I always want to go hard and play flight of the bumblebee on my keyboard? No, sometimes I want to do less damage for a less complicated build. The ring let you do that on any class, rather than just... I guess pet sorc? Maybe some templar builds?

    But that's not the point of the ring. The point is an accessibility item that boosts less experienced players while also encouraging them to learn the game mechanics, and also gives a crutch to disabled players that need one. All of the examples you showed are people like that, and someone could take most of that and just throw a positive spin rather than saying the ring is overpowered when it can't be by design (other than in PVP because these two game modes are variable). If the ring gets nerfed and everyone stops using it, it got nerfed too hard, and with the current empower change, the only builds that benefit from the ring are heavy attack builds. That goes against the idea of an item that encourages you to get better at game mechanics, since heavy attack builds for the most part let you ignore most game mechanics. It's fine if the ring has it, but it should be something that helps players even if they aren't doing a heavy attack build.

    People have a right to be upset when someone removes the elevator and tells you that you can only use the stairs. There are people that either have trouble using stairs or physically cannot.
    Edited by merpins on August 4, 2022 2:36AM
  • merpins
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    Dawnblade wrote: »
    I'm still confused - is it really OP as in it beats two bar setups and creates an I WIN button for PVP, or is it OP because it allows average players to perform better, or is it OP because it lets good players pull off some neat tricks for their Youtube channel, or is it OP just because well it has so many buffs it must be OP?

    From the comments on the latest patch notes, it appears the issue for ZOS was too many people using it, not necessarily dominating with it - but maybe that is telling them something regarding player's actual enjoyment of their clunky 2-bar buff buff buff combat set up they should heed.

    Yeah it wasn't an op item. It was just overperforming in PVP. ZoS thinks that when everyone starts using and item, then it must be OP. But in actuality, the majority of the playerbase is at mid-game. The ring is literally for early and mid-game players that don't have the means to make a really good build, or don't have the skills to perform a good build. So most of them started using it. That doesn't mean it's OP, but it was doing its job as an accessibility item. And because lots of people dislike the bar swap mechanic lol.
  • the1andonlyskwex
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    merpins wrote: »
    Dawnblade wrote: »
    I'm still confused - is it really OP as in it beats two bar setups and creates an I WIN button for PVP, or is it OP because it allows average players to perform better, or is it OP because it lets good players pull off some neat tricks for their Youtube channel, or is it OP just because well it has so many buffs it must be OP?

    From the comments on the latest patch notes, it appears the issue for ZOS was too many people using it, not necessarily dominating with it - but maybe that is telling them something regarding player's actual enjoyment of their clunky 2-bar buff buff buff combat set up they should heed.

    Yeah it wasn't an op item. It was just overperforming in PVP. ZoS thinks that when everyone starts using and item, then it must be OP. But in actuality, the majority of the playerbase is at mid-game. The ring is literally for early and mid-game players that don't have the means to make a really good build, or don't have the skills to perform a good build. So most of them started using it. That doesn't mean it's OP, but it was doing its job as an accessibility item. And because lots of people dislike the bar swap mechanic lol.

    Uh, no. It's not supposed to be for mid-game progression players. It's supposed to be for disabled players who could never achieve even mid-game without it.
  • taugrim
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    merpins wrote: »
    Every single quote you're showing is of people that are at mid-game or early game

    You either didn't read the Reddit posts or didn't comprehend them.

    The Redditor I quoted twice was doing Flawless VMA runs using light attacks only, with different builds. Oakensoul blew the doors off every other build that that player has tried in terms of speed and safety. The videos are on on that person's YouTube channel.

    That is not "mid-game or early game" 🤣🤣🤣
    Edited by taugrim on August 4, 2022 4:04AM
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  • merpins
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    taugrim wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    Every single quote you're showing is of people that are at mid-game or early game

    You either didn't read the Reddit posts or didn't comprehend them.

    The Redditor I quoted twice was doing Flawless VMA runs using light attacks only, with different builds. Oakensoul blew the doors off every other build that that player has tried in terms of speed and safety. The videos are on on that person's YouTube channel.

    That is not "mid-game or early game" 🤣🤣🤣

    Anyone can do a flawless VMA run with any build given time and mechanics. You can probably do exactly the same thing, easier with the ring of the pale order. Stunts like that don't prove whether or not an item is overpowered. It only proves the person that did it is very good with the game's mechanics. I seriously doubt it was easier with the ring than it is with the ring of the pale order. It also doesn't matter if an oakensoul build did better than any other build for a VMA run with... Light attacks only. The guy isn't going for any score pushing, he's not killing off the last boss of whatever vet dungeon in 30 seconds like some giga-min-maxed guilds sometimes do. He's doing a stunt.
    Edited by merpins on August 4, 2022 4:37AM
  • merpins
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    merpins wrote: »
    Dawnblade wrote: »
    I'm still confused - is it really OP as in it beats two bar setups and creates an I WIN button for PVP, or is it OP because it allows average players to perform better, or is it OP because it lets good players pull off some neat tricks for their Youtube channel, or is it OP just because well it has so many buffs it must be OP?

    From the comments on the latest patch notes, it appears the issue for ZOS was too many people using it, not necessarily dominating with it - but maybe that is telling them something regarding player's actual enjoyment of their clunky 2-bar buff buff buff combat set up they should heed.

    Yeah it wasn't an op item. It was just overperforming in PVP. ZoS thinks that when everyone starts using and item, then it must be OP. But in actuality, the majority of the playerbase is at mid-game. The ring is literally for early and mid-game players that don't have the means to make a really good build, or don't have the skills to perform a good build. So most of them started using it. That doesn't mean it's OP, but it was doing its job as an accessibility item. And because lots of people dislike the bar swap mechanic lol.

    Uh, no. It's not supposed to be for mid-game progression players. It's supposed to be for disabled players who could never achieve even mid-game without it.

    Quoting me on that is kinda meh imo. Been pushing for that since Oakensoul was announced.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611162/oakensoul-major-slayer-major-aegis/p1
    Read number 1; the first group it's made for. But that doesn't mean it's not made for other users either.
  • the1andonlyskwex
    the1andonlyskwex
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    merpins wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    Dawnblade wrote: »
    I'm still confused - is it really OP as in it beats two bar setups and creates an I WIN button for PVP, or is it OP because it allows average players to perform better, or is it OP because it lets good players pull off some neat tricks for their Youtube channel, or is it OP just because well it has so many buffs it must be OP?

    From the comments on the latest patch notes, it appears the issue for ZOS was too many people using it, not necessarily dominating with it - but maybe that is telling them something regarding player's actual enjoyment of their clunky 2-bar buff buff buff combat set up they should heed.

    Yeah it wasn't an op item. It was just overperforming in PVP. ZoS thinks that when everyone starts using and item, then it must be OP. But in actuality, the majority of the playerbase is at mid-game. The ring is literally for early and mid-game players that don't have the means to make a really good build, or don't have the skills to perform a good build. So most of them started using it. That doesn't mean it's OP, but it was doing its job as an accessibility item. And because lots of people dislike the bar swap mechanic lol.

    Uh, no. It's not supposed to be for mid-game progression players. It's supposed to be for disabled players who could never achieve even mid-game without it.

    Quoting me on that is kinda meh imo. Been pushing for that since Oakensoul was announced.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611162/oakensoul-major-slayer-major-aegis/p1
    Read number 1; the first group it's made for. But that doesn't mean it's not made for other users either.

    You misunderstand. I'm telling you that it's not made for other users. Other people can use it, but they shouldn't expect it to compete with items/sets that allow use of two action bars.

    If Oakensoul is making mid-tier or higher players better (in any challenging content, not just trials), then it's probably too strong.
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    merpins wrote: »
    taugrim wrote: »
    merpins wrote: »
    Every single quote you're showing is of people that are at mid-game or early game

    You either didn't read the Reddit posts or didn't comprehend them.

    The Redditor I quoted twice was doing Flawless VMA runs using light attacks only, with different builds. Oakensoul blew the doors off every other build that that player has tried in terms of speed and safety. The videos are on on that person's YouTube channel.

    That is not "mid-game or early game" 🤣🤣🤣

    Anyone can do a flawless VMA run with any build given time and mechanics. You can probably do exactly the same thing, easier with the ring of the pale order. Stunts like that don't prove whether or not an item is overpowered. It only proves the person that did it is very good with the game's mechanics. I seriously doubt it was easier with the ring than it is with the ring of the pale order. It also doesn't matter if an oakensoul build did better than any other build for a VMA run with... Light attacks only. The guy isn't going for any score pushing, he's not killing off the last boss of whatever vet dungeon in 30 seconds like some giga-min-maxed guilds sometimes do. He's doing a stunt.

    The longer it takes to kill everything, the harder it becomes. Mechanics start to stack. Incoming damage begins to stack.

    This is why significantly increasing damage with oak makes it easier. If you're killing everything before you have to worry about the archers or poison blooms, then your success rate dramatically increases.
    I drink and I stream things.
  • Stx
    Stx
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    Obviously Oakensoul gains power in a solo environment, because you gain full value from all the buffs it provides. In a group environment however, you lose value on it whenever you gain one of the buffs from a support or ally. That's why oakensoul is OP for gankers in pvp, and makes Solo arenas easier. Oakensoul has front loaded damage, making it easier to cleave through multiple enemies with lower HP. But it will never compete with a two bar setup for world bosses, vet dungeon bosses, or raids, even on live.

    All these nerfs are doing on the PTS is making it unusable in group pve. It will still be usable in solo environments, just not nearly as good as it was. And depending on your class, it may not be worth running in any scenario. As a templar, I already get minor protection and minor mending, and minor berserk/force are super easy to get even solo... so why would i continue to run this?

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