Oakensoul is Still a 20% Nerf

merpins

So on live, we know what Oakensoul does.
This new version of Oakensoul grants Minor Slayer and Aegis, as well as the new Empower. IF Empower was still light and heavy attacks have a 40% increase in damage, then this would have jumped Oakensoul back up to being decent, maybe a 10% nerf as compared to live (probably closer to 12%), which is useable. It wouldn't be great since there are a number of classes with access to long duration empower, but it would at least be decent. But because it only buffs heavy attacks by 80% (against monsters), this only benefits classes that don't have access to a long duration Empower buff, and only if you're using a heavy attack build. Sure, this is an accessible build, and great for new players and disabled players, but that forces that group of players into one playstyle if they choose to use this ring. Heavy attack builds, for newer players and learning players, also stop them from learning light attack weaving, turning the ring from a stepping stone into a trap. If you use it for a heavy attack build, you'll never get used to LA weaving as a mechanic; the power the ring will grant to a newer player will make them want to only use the ring, but due to it only benefiting one playstyle, it decreases the speed at which players learn the game. Before, it would HELP players learn the game better by making you focus on half the number of skills and allow you to learn weaving, becoming more mechanically proficient at the game.
If you're not using heavy attacks, then it's STILL a 20% nerf from live. Adding Aegis brings back the survivability that was lost, but you'll still see your damage drop from 80k dps to 66k dps, or 60k dps to 48k dps. This will not help the group that needs this ring except in the singular instance they might want to do a heavy attack build.

There are 4 solutions here. One, revert and balance PVE and PVP separately, giving the PTS 1 buffs in PVE, and minor versions in PVP. Two, change empower back to 40% light and heavy attacks. This will make the ring at least useable for most people. Three, change Minor Berserk to Major Berserk and Minor Courage to Major Courage. Yeah, those were two buffs that were nerfed, but that'll also add back a good amount of the power lost. It makes it stronger in PVP though. Or 4, and the one I most advocate, add Major Slayer to the ring and DO NOT remove minor slayer. I know you were saying, ZoS, that you want to keep that buff as something you get from end-game gear, but keep in mind;
1. this ring, even with that buff, will be weaker than live. Keep in mind, most late-mid game users that used this ring and end-game users that used this ring for casual builds use Relequen to get optimal damage. For them (which is only 10 or 20% of the players, but still), this is not a buff. And even without that, taking 25% of the damage away to give back 5% and encourage medium weaving simultaneously creates a gap between end game players and everyone else, but it also only increases the ring's damage to 20% less of what it is on live; which is still garbage.
2. This is a stopgap set for everyone but disabled players and endgame players. The majority of players that use this item are going to use it to help them get the gear you're mentioning, and then stop using this ring as they get better at the game mechanics. On live, players that use this ring deal 20% less damage than top end at best, but most were dealing 30-60% less dps than top end. By no means was this ring best in slot; it was only a means to an end for most people, or a casual playstyle for others.
3. If you're a disabled player, this is pigeonholing you into a single playstyle. Everyone else, Devs included; if you were a disabled player, would YOU want to only be able to play a single playstyle? No! of course not!

I've gone into detail ad nauseam over the last few weeks why the changes to the ring were bad. This new change is a step in the right direction! But a 20% dps loss still means you won't be able to do harder content, or at least you'll struggle a lot as compared to before. This is on top of any DPS loss you'll get from nerfs coming this patch.

seventyfive

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

Riptide

I don’t know why they don’t put major slayer on it, which would stack with the minor slayer easily attainable from norm trials, and make the ring instantly useful. And by definition not break PVP.

But shrug.

merpins

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

merpins

Riptide wrote: »

I don’t know why they don’t put major slayer on it, which would stack with the minor slayer easily attainable from norm trials, and make the ring instantly useful. And by definition not break PVP.

But shrug.

They explained why, it's just the reasoning is flawed.

"as those buffs are meant to be sourced from trial sets and to encourage coordinated behavior for groups."

Here's the thing; the ring ENCOURAGES coordinated behavior from groups, as if you have a player or two with oakensoul, you need to coordinate with your trial group so you don't have a party member with a Major Slayer granting set in your party (if the ring gave major slayer). For players that want to get gear that grants these buffs, and those that want to get better at the game and are using the ring to learn the game more, well, they're going to move away from the ring for 2-bar builds eventually, once they get the gear and learn the mechanics. So including those buffs, or rather just the slayer because it doesnt need major aegis, would be beneficial and STILL A NERF as compared to live.

WoppaBoem

merpins wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

20% nerf from a lot like really a lot in 1 item means it still offers a lot just a little bit less. Its still very good and has a balanced place instead of right out broken.

jaws343

merpins wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

merpins

WoppaBoem wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

20% nerf from a lot like really a lot in 1 item means it still offers a lot just a little bit less. Its still very good and has a balanced place instead of right out broken.

the best of the best, end game players that don't need the ring and still had to play like they were doing an end-game build, could do 20% less DPS than end game builds with the ring. Everyone else, the groups it was made for, were dealing between 30 and 60% less dps than end game builds. A 20% nerf kills the ring. Hell, a 10% nerf kills the ring for a good amount of people, but a 10% nerf still means it's usable for its designed purpose. Keep in mind, this isn't 1 20% nerf to the ring, this is a 20% nerf to your total damage.
Right now, it's a buff from live but ONLY for heavy attack builds in PVE. That's not good design, making it only good for one type of build when it's supposed to help players learn the game.

ebix_

I dont get it! why should game reward lazy playstyles? if you cant effectively use 2 bars then your damage should drop, you expect to play with one bar and be as effective as a player that puts twice as much as your effort.
I know there are players that are physically unable to do it and oakensoul helps them but crying over 10-20% damage loss when you have to lose 50% with much less effort is unacceptable. ( my personal view on this )
and also the new dot nerfs are indirect buff to oakensoul imo.

merpins

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

jaws343

merpins wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

Riptide

merpins wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

I don’t know why they don’t put major slayer on it, which would stack with the minor slayer easily attainable from norm trials, and make the ring instantly useful. And by definition not break PVP.

But shrug.

They explained why, it's just the reasoning is flawed.

"as those buffs are meant to be sourced from trial sets and to encourage coordinated behavior for groups."

Here's the thing; the ring ENCOURAGES coordinated behavior from groups, as if you have a player or two with oakensoul, you need to coordinate with your trial group so you don't have a party member with a Major Slayer granting set in your party (if the ring gave major slayer). For players that want to get gear that grants these buffs, and those that want to get better at the game and are using the ring to learn the game more, well, they're going to move away from the ring for 2-bar builds eventually, once they get the gear and learn the mechanics. So including those buffs, or rather just the slayer because it doesnt need major aegis, would be beneficial and STILL A NERF as compared to live.

Yeah I reckon thats actually what drives a lot of this. Coming up with a new, relatively random paradigm and sticking with that for a few weeks (or days) as a decision making factor - rather than just flat out using occam’s razor.

It is the why behind all of this mess.

And btw I reckon its internal “ideas people” coming up with the nifty, sounds good on paper paradigms that are shifting like sand and 1-2 poor folks trying to fulfill that in tons of areas. Sure is what it feels like anyway.

merpins

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

You're misquoting me and doing math wrong. You subtract the difference. It was doing about 40-50% less damage than a 2-bar build in the previous pts, and 15-25% on live. And the only builds that did 15% on live were stam sorcs.

jaws343

merpins wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

You're misquoting me and doing math wrong. You subtract the difference. It was doing about 40-50% less damage than a 2-bar build in the previous pts, and 15-25% on live. And the only builds that did 15% on live were stam sorcs.

I am honestly not trying to do either of those things. But you are throwing around 20-25% without clear context and it is incredibly hard to follow.

How much is a 2 bar build doing on PTS? How much is the equivalent Oaken build doing on PTS. How much is an Oaken heavy build doing on PTS?

Just throwing around a bunch of out of context percentages, especially when trying to compare to live, which has entirely different damage for dots and light attacks being applied, is incredibly confusing and doesn't really inform anyone properly of what you are trying to say.

On top of that, I still stand by my point that if you aren't using heavy attack builds with this now, you really aren't trying to use it for accessibility, you just want easy damage. Which, also, is a heavy attack build anyways. So I just cannot get behind the complaint that the ring is forcing you to do an even easier rotation, and that is somehow a problem. The accessibility ring is forcing your build to be more accessible, seems like that is the point of it.

jaws343

merpins wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

You're misquoting me and doing math wrong. You subtract the difference. It was doing about 40-50% less damage than a 2-bar build in the previous pts, and 15-25% on live. And the only builds that did 15% on live were stam sorcs.

Following up on this, and kind of proving my point. If the ring is a 20% nerf from live, is it just the RING or is it a total parse.

That is the important distinction. Because ALL builds are nerfed from live. All of them. So just by the very nature of the PTS nerfs for all builds, Oakensoul will be nerfed.

Which is why, comparing % nerfs to live needs context.

Stx

Okay, no one said you have to use Oakensoul for accessibility.. you can use it because it makes the game more fun. All that matters is that it's balanced, and even on live, it ISNT overperfoming in pve compared to two bar builds.

merpins

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

Ask yourself this - what is the goal of nerfing something?
And before you ask, my interpretation of their comments regarding the ring is that it was meant to be nerfed for pve as well, although not as much as initially perhaps.

I believe they've achieved what they set out to achieve. Seems to be as good as it deserves to be now, with a little extra love for pve but still noticeably behind the options that require significantly more effort from the player, just as it should be.

a 10% nerf would make the ring still useable. A 20% nerf makes it garbage. And it's actually probably a buff for heavy attack builds. This makes the ring only useable for a single type of build. Disabled players rejoice! The devs have seen the light, and have granted you one playstyle you can actually use.

Important question, because too many players are doing this in their number reporting.

How are you coming to that 20% nerf amount?

Are you parsing, in a patch that is seeing both dot nerfs and light attack nerfs. Because if you are parsing, that 20% nerf isn't really just Oakensoul, it is the dots and light attack nerfs as well.

I also think it is a bit disingenuous to want this for accessibility reason, but they complain when they make it incredibly useful for the most accessibility focues form of attack, heavy attack builds. Like, people gravitate towards heavy attack spam builds due to their ease of use and relatively few button presses. It seems like the perfect pairing to enable those further using the ring.

So which is it? Are 2 bar builds too hard to run for some people that they need Oakensoul to enable them to do more content, or at least do it more comfortably. Or are Oakensoul builds meant to be stepping stones to 2 bar builds, so, as such, these DPS nerfs aren't really a problem, because if they were, players would just use the stronger heavy attack build, which is more accessible, or they would just go to a 2 bar build since they are ready to move on.

The damage lost from the changes to this ring was 25% in the previous PTS. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. I tested on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. Adding Minor Slayer only bumps this up to 20%. So it's neither disingenuous, since I tested it properly, or is it inaccurate.

So, the ring does 20% less DPS than a 2 bar build... That seems more than fair considering they are using 5 less skills. It shouldn't do anything near what a 2 bar build can do.

You're misquoting me and doing math wrong. You subtract the difference. It was doing about 40-50% less damage than a 2-bar build in the previous pts, and 15-25% on live. And the only builds that did 15% on live were stam sorcs.

Following up on this, and kind of proving my point. If the ring is a 20% nerf from live, is it just the RING or is it a total parse.

That is the important distinction. Because ALL builds are nerfed from live. All of them. So just by the very nature of the PTS nerfs for all builds, Oakensoul will be nerfed.

Which is why, comparing % nerfs to live needs context.

Already went over this and gave context. It's the whole parse; the nerfs are blanket nerfs. 10% crit damage, 200 weapon and spell damage, 5% general damage, 1.5 ult gen. These nerfs to the ring effect your total damage. It's not like it's just effecting a set that deals damage and that damage is being adjusted, it's effecting your total effectiveness. That should be obvious based on what the ring is and shouldn't even be a question [snip]
And to answer your previous question, if you use percentiles, it doesnt matter what your DPS is. It scales up and down. If you were to test it with relequen, a piece of slimecraw, and i guess medusa's on a stamina warden and deal 60k dps, then test it with sea serpent's coil or something and add a backbar, it'll be consistent even when you do a magicka nb build with war maiden's and pillars of nirn; regardless of how good or bad the build is, percentiles should be consistent and if they are, the math is correct. So that question is also not necessary, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Vahndamme

More options better.

To be honest getting both Minor and Major Slayer/Aegis on the ring + Empower (with +40% on LA to monsters and +80% on HA to monsters) would be the best. It gives HA builds to use the ring properly. It gives LA bulds to use the ring properly.

It gives people who haven't done trials or a trial set yet Minor versions AND Major version so raising the floor a good lot. And when they do have a trial set, they'll still get the buff from Major Slayer/Aegis. Or optionally they can run 2 non trial sets and still have Minor Slayer/Aegis.

In this case a lot more options across the board and definitely raising the floor for those who like Oakensoul in PvE. As you said, with current Empower it pushes people into the niche and well.. all the rest will flick it in the bank. Those that do use it will learn HA builds only and have a harder time learning different styles. The ring will have such a bad position as to where it is at Live.

Granted it's overtuned for PvP on live. But you can easily tweak with Slayer/Aegis buffs. But atm the 'buff' they made isn't one because people will insta bank it the moment they get a trial set with minor slayer on it. And well Empower is useless for non HA / medium weaving players. So no buff really, the changes have no meaning in terms of raising the floor. The 'promised' ring still looks like it's gonna be a false promise and a tricked way into getting people to buy the chapter.

Marto

Riptide wrote: »

I don’t know why they don’t put major slayer on it, which would stack with the minor slayer easily attainable from norm trials, and make the ring instantly useful. And by definition not break PVP.

Because Major Slayer is an extremely powerful and rare buff.

merpins wrote: »

Adding Aegis brings back the survivability that was lost.

Oakensoul on 8.1.0 lost aproximately 1-2% damage mitigation. Because that's how multiplicative bonuses works.

Oakensoul was still strong in 8.1.0, and it's even stronger in 8.1.3.

Stop looking at everything from the absolute top of optimized trial DPS. Not every set can or should be up there. Not even a mythic.

Mythic items are all about enabling different, unorthodox builds and playstyles. They're all about tradeoffs. Mythics are not supposed to be a 1-stop solution to make your build better than any other build could ever be.

merpins

Marto wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

I don’t know why they don’t put major slayer on it, which would stack with the minor slayer easily attainable from norm trials, and make the ring instantly useful. And by definition not break PVP.

Because Major Slayer is an extremely powerful and rare buff.

merpins wrote: »

Adding Aegis brings back the survivability that was lost.

Oakensoul on 8.1.0 lost aproximately 1-2% damage mitigation. Because that's how multiplicative bonuses works.

Oakensoul was still strong in 8.1.0, and it's even stronger in 8.1.3.

Stop looking at everything from the absolute top of optimized trial DPS. Not every set can or should be up there. Not even a mythic.

Mythic items are all about enabling different, unorthodox builds and playstyles. They're all about tradeoffs. Mythics are not supposed to be a 1-stop solution to make your build better than any other build could ever be.

Tested it. It lost 25% of its damage on 8.1.0. Taking into account the rest of the nerfs, by the way.
Not everything should be the top of optimized trial DPS. But keep in mind, those people that do top of optimized trial DPS could only get 20% less than top end DPS out of the ring on live, and everyone else was getting 30-60% less. It was an item to help you get there, then you stop using it. Or. To use it if you want to play casually. Or. If you're disabled, and needed a crutch because you can't do complicated builds. Keep in mind, for the top end, 100% of the time to get the DPS they were dealing, you had to use.... Relequen. Do you know what relequen gives? Minor Slayer.

It might stronger in 8.1.3 due to the empower change, but only for heavy attack builds, only in PVE, and thats a might because the empower on the ring is currently bugged and doesn't work. Making the item into a heavy attack build only item isn't the way to go, major slayer, or adding back the 40% la damage to empower, will help improve it to a place that's good. slayer more than the empower change.

DairyCat

Riptide wrote: »

I don’t know why they don’t put major slayer on it, which would stack with the minor slayer easily attainable from norm trials, and make the ring instantly useful. And by definition not break PVP.

But shrug.

You're assuming they think Oakensoul's power is where they want it for PvE on live. I think they also want to nerf it for PvE, albeit not as much as they want to nerf it for PvP.

DairyCat

I don't think it's great balancing for one item to be the solution to accessing all content in the game. I'm fairly sure they intend for Oakensoul to be weaker in PvE than it is on live servers.

ZOS saw that there were a bunch of people running one-bar builds and gave them this ring as a boost. It's not meant to a crutch to all skill and game knowledge gaps, otherwise why even have progression be part of gameplay?

merpins

DairyCat wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

I don’t know why they don’t put major slayer on it, which would stack with the minor slayer easily attainable from norm trials, and make the ring instantly useful. And by definition not break PVP.

But shrug.

You're assuming they think Oakensoul's power is where they want it for PvE on live. I think they also want to nerf it for PvE, albeit not as much as they want to nerf it for PvP.

If it's nerfed to a point no one wants to use it, they've failed at balancing the item unless their goal in the first place was to make it so no one uses it. And the fact that they're still balancing it says that's not the case.

Rlacoste

3. If you're a disabled player, this is pigeonholing you into a single playstyle. Everyone else, Devs included; if you were a disabled player, would YOU want to only be able to play a single playstyle? No! of course not!

this has been my problem... I'm limited in vision plus dealing with sensory processing disorder. Oakensoul made it possible to attempt different styles. Now I will have to revert to sniping lol

Werewolf gave me an outlet at least. But lacks CC immunity and speed and limited sets to use.

Leave oakensoul alone. I even attempted Vateshran again since it's release. I can at least solo WBs without waiting 4ever for help.

Stop assuming we are all on even platform. give people with disabilities some love, stop taking away...

Find a good balance, but please do not make that set useless.

And NO NO NO, some of us CAN NOT run in groups and still would like to PVP.

DairyCat

merpins wrote: »

DairyCat wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

I don’t know why they don’t put major slayer on it, which would stack with the minor slayer easily attainable from norm trials, and make the ring instantly useful. And by definition not break PVP.

But shrug.

You're assuming they think Oakensoul's power is where they want it for PvE on live. I think they also want to nerf it for PvE, albeit not as much as they want to nerf it for PvP.

If it's nerfed to a point no one wants to use it, they've failed at balancing the item unless their goal in the first place was to make it so no one uses it. And the fact that they're still balancing it says that's not the case.

If there were people running 1 bar builds before Oakensoul it will 100% still be used even based on its 8.1.1 PTS patch nerfs because it's still infinitely better than what they had before.

Marto

Rlacoste wrote: »

3. If you're a disabled player, this is pigeonholing you into a single playstyle. Everyone else, Devs included; if you were a disabled player, would YOU want to only be able to play a single playstyle? No! of course not!

How??

Because it got Empower you're thinking it "pigeonholes you" into a heavy attack build? It still has a lot of buffs and bonuses.

Just because you have hot sauce in your fridge doesn't mean you have to add it to your breakfast cereal.

BuzzLightYear

The issue is that in pve was fine as it is,just give it the rallying cry treatment and make it give minor buffs when battle spirit is active idk what's hard about it. Oaken builds never outperformed 2 bar PvE builds mostly because when u actually play the game in the end game spectrum u do need 2 bars for a lot of stuff.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

I'd be happy for it to not have any Courage for Ulti Gen at all. I can appreciate how that impacts PVP.

Also, as for all this justification about the different groups and playstyles out there...

How about, for example, I'm in Australia and while not terribly ping inconvenienced, I just wanted a simple but fun 1 bar build because reasons, with the caveat to do reasonably well with it too. We shouldn't need to argue merit based or who doesn't deserve for less effort.

At the end of the day, it's just a video game that I made the conscious choice to pay $15 bucks a month on, and I was here for a fun time.

merpins

Marto wrote: »

Rlacoste wrote: »

3. If you're a disabled player, this is pigeonholing you into a single playstyle. Everyone else, Devs included; if you were a disabled player, would YOU want to only be able to play a single playstyle? No! of course not!

How??

Because it got Empower you're thinking it "pigeonholes you" into a heavy attack build? It still has a lot of buffs and bonuses.

Just because you have hot sauce in your fridge doesn't mean you have to add it to your breakfast cereal.

Try using it.

EF321

This is mythic for people who want/have to use one bar only no matter what, stop comparing it to two bar builds. Compare it to anything else that you can use instead while only utilizing one bar. Is oakensoul better? If yes, it is in good spot.

merpins

EF321 wrote: »

Is oakensoul better? If yes, it is in good spot.

If anything gets a buff after a debilitating nerf, it's in a good spot then?
No.

How about a genuine comparison?

Can you deal more damage with a 1-bar build without this ring? If yes, then it's in a bad spot. And guess what, the answer is a resounding yes. The ring needs at least 10% more damage to be a better choice than a 1-bar build without it, and 1-bar builds are not competitive at end game.