Week 3 of PTS, Frost Warden Perspective.

ESO_Nightingale

also i'll just put a note here to clarify why i made a second post,

Because of these changes and the bit of evidence from zos that they're listening (at least a little bit), i decided that it was important to get developer eyes on a fresh post that was up to date so they wouldn't have to dig through a bunch of comments to find new feedback on an already 2-week old post with several pages of feedback.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

the reason why is guarenteed passive aoe chilled proc by 1 skill just means supports can abuse it for 100% aoe chilled uptime without having to actively press a skill or use charged. that's like the 1 unique thing we can even do right now as frost dps and having it guarentee chilled means killing that reason off, while also invalidating the point of glacial presence's increased chilled application effect. there's also other more interesting effects that could be added to it.

Mr_Stach

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

Adding extra effects lead to nerfs later. That's what got Arct Blast into it's 5 years of Hell to finally get to a good spot now (fingers crossed).

But as far as status goes, destro gives +100% chance. Warden's have an additional +200% Chance with Winter's Embrace skills, so with both Arctic Blast and Winter's Revenge going, chilled is proccing all the time anyways on top of unstable wall.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

the reason why is guarenteed passive aoe chilled proc by 1 skill just means supports can abuse it for 100% aoe chilled uptime without having to actively press a skill or use charged. that's like the 1 unique thing we can even do right now as frost dps and having it guarentee chilled means killing that reason off, while also invalidating the point of glacial presence's increased chilled application effect. there's also other more interesting effects that could be added to it.

I get your point I really do, but I feel it’s half baked. I mean so what if a support is applying Chilled? If I am applying Chilled as well that’s just more group wide DPS. Also, as a damage spec my Chilled procs will be hitting harder anyway. Maybe, increased Chill Chance and damage could be added to Frostbite set. No supports will be running that set.

I don’t think supports applying Chilled really harms Frost DD in anyway. We will be applying it way more often and with high damage.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

the reason why is guarenteed passive aoe chilled proc by 1 skill just means supports can abuse it for 100% aoe chilled uptime without having to actively press a skill or use charged. that's like the 1 unique thing we can even do right now as frost dps and having it guarentee chilled means killing that reason off, while also invalidating the point of glacial presence's increased chilled application effect. there's also other more interesting effects that could be added to it.

I get your point I really do, but I feel it’s half baked. I mean so what if a support is applying Chilled? If I am applying Chilled as well that’s just more group wide DPS. Also, as a damage spec my Chilled procs will be hitting harder anyway. Maybe, increased Chill Chance and damage could be added to Frostbite set. No supports will be running that set.

I don’t think supports applying Chilled really harms Frost DD in anyway. We will be applying it way more often and with high damage.

the issue really just comes down to minor brittle and that's why i'm being defensive. you just need consistent uptime on brittle in order to get the needed value with it, so increasing the uptime and sources of it more and more just means that there's no reason for brittle dps to bother doing that role.
If frost dps was able to do comparable levels of dps with non-frost builds, then they wouldn't have to crutch so hard on brittle being their sole reason for existing. it'd be nice if we lived in a world where playing frost dps was the same as literally any other weapon besides snb or resto, but that isn't the case right now. it's still weak and the playstyle is still a bit underdeveloped regarding set and skill options. little by little it gets closer with these kinds of changes. but it's still not quite there yet.

there's also the matter of there being a lot of chilled application bonuses being thrown around when it's already enough as is. if we are going to increase the dps, we need to have other effects that aren't just more chilled application chance. what about a chilled damage increase? guarenteed chilled crit? chilled execute?

stevenyaub16_ESO

I'm sad. They rebalanced other classes' damage but It seems like they intend for winter's revenge to suck, seeing that they rebalanced other classes' dots/abilities.

New shalks timers and useless passive here to stay too.

ESO_Nightingale

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

I'm sad. They rebalanced other classes' damage but It seems like they intend for winter's revenge to suck, seeing that they rebalanced other classes' dots/abilities.

New shalks timers and useless passive here to stay too.

I really hope winter's tooltip is just a temporary value until next week/ the week after gets changes.

dhoward5b14_ESO

FYI Many people have slightly incorrect numbers about penetration vs damage.

Against non-players (NPCs - enemies like in dungeons, trials, overland etc.) 500 penetration is worth 1% damage. Against players, 660 pen/resistance is worth 1%. This is because NPC's take 50% damage at 25k resistance (max 18200 actual resistance), but players take 50% damage at 33k resistance.

ESO_Nightingale

dhoward5b14_ESO wrote: »

FYI Many people have slightly incorrect numbers about penetration vs damage.

Against non-players (NPCs - enemies like in dungeons, trials, overland etc.) 500 penetration is worth 1% damage. Against players, 660 pen/resistance is worth 1%. This is because NPC's take 50% damage at 25k resistance (max 18200 actual resistance), but players take 50% damage at 33k resistance.

either way it doesn't matter, penetration absolutely sucks for magicka damage dealers in pve because it does nothing.

ESO_Nightingale

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

What if they swapped the changes to advanced species and Screaming Cliff Racer. So advanced increases weapon and spell damage and SCR increases pen.

Also terrible. Generally speaking, mag builds use light armor, which makes pen a worthless stat.

for pve yes, but would be good for pvp, where you generally dont use 5 light.

I don't really PVP, so I tend to view things solely from a PVE perspective.

Even for pvp though. Pen is very easy to access. Sure the bonus damage isn't as good in pvp but damage is damage. It's Wardens #1 damage passive. There's other passives that need reworking that could have Pen slapped on it, like Icy Aura. Everyone universally agrees that Icy Aura is next to useless. So rework that Zos.

icy aura is literally useless now that falcon's swiftness clears soft cc. it needs to be entirely changed.

Yes an update to this passive is needed.

would also be nice to be able to get sustain when healing yourself with nature's gift, and maybe a change to flourish that makes it a flat 200 instead of like a tiny 12% bonus

MacRibs

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

the issue really just comes down to minor brittle and that's why i'm being defensive. you just need consistent uptime on brittle in order to get the needed value with it, so increasing the uptime and sources of it more and more just means that there's no reason for brittle dps to bother doing that role.
If frost dps was able to do comparable levels of dps with non-frost builds, then they wouldn't have to crutch so hard on brittle being their sole reason for existing. it'd be nice if we lived in a world where playing frost dps was the same as literally any other weapon besides snb or resto, but that isn't the case right now. it's still weak and the playstyle is still a bit underdeveloped regarding set and skill options. little by little it gets closer with these kinds of changes. but it's still not quite there yet.

there's also the matter of there being a lot of chilled application bonuses being thrown around when it's already enough as is. if we are going to increase the dps, we need to have other effects that aren't just more chilled application chance. what about a chilled damage increase? guaranteed chilled crit? chilled execute?

There's no comparable levels of dps with non-frost, frost dd builds as long as Ancient Knowledge ice staff bonus remains a 100% defensive half baked mix between "Sword and Board" and "Fortress" passives from the One Hand and Shield skill line.

They took away the 15% cost reduction to skill line abilities from "Fortress" , the 5% Weapon and Spell Damage increase from "Sword and Board", picked only the defensive block part from both passives to create the ice staff bonus and called it a day.

Ice staves need a offensive bonus, like a 10% Critical chance increase while using ice staves, since ice and crit have been a thing for some time now or something else entirely, otherwise they can't compete with other weapons.

On the warden's side Icy Aura is underwhelming as a passive and a good candidate to get some kind of rework of a more offensive nature, what truly would be a game changer would be for this passive to have a line that would make it so that when you had a ice staff equipped it would make magic damage abilities deal ice damage instead.
This would actually solve the problem of having few ice damage abilities since the entire Animal Companion skill line would now deal frost damage and not having to butcher a playstyle, magic damage mag wardens, in favor of another, frost damage mag wardens by changing skills damage types.

Increasing chilled damage or chilled excute would be nice however i feel it would still be underwhelming due to chilled weak base damage and, as stated above, other players could be applying the effect and the bonus would become redundant.

I agree frost theme builds are in a way better place then they were and have been getting better for some time now but they're still not there yet.

ESO_Nightingale

MacRibs wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

the issue really just comes down to minor brittle and that's why i'm being defensive. you just need consistent uptime on brittle in order to get the needed value with it, so increasing the uptime and sources of it more and more just means that there's no reason for brittle dps to bother doing that role.
If frost dps was able to do comparable levels of dps with non-frost builds, then they wouldn't have to crutch so hard on brittle being their sole reason for existing. it'd be nice if we lived in a world where playing frost dps was the same as literally any other weapon besides snb or resto, but that isn't the case right now. it's still weak and the playstyle is still a bit underdeveloped regarding set and skill options. little by little it gets closer with these kinds of changes. but it's still not quite there yet.

there's also the matter of there being a lot of chilled application bonuses being thrown around when it's already enough as is. if we are going to increase the dps, we need to have other effects that aren't just more chilled application chance. what about a chilled damage increase? guaranteed chilled crit? chilled execute?

There's no comparable levels of dps with non-frost, frost dd builds as long as Ancient Knowledge ice staff bonus remains a 100% defensive half baked mix between "Sword and Board" and "Fortress" passives from the One Hand and Shield skill line.

They took away the 15% cost reduction to skill line abilities from "Fortress" , the 5% Weapon and Spell Damage increase from "Sword and Board", picked only the defensive block part from both passives to create the ice staff bonus and called it a day.

Ice staves need a offensive bonus, like a 10% Critical chance increase while using ice staves, since ice and crit have been a thing for some time now or something else entirely, otherwise they can't compete with other weapons.

On the warden's side Icy Aura is underwhelming as a passive and a good candidate to get some kind of rework of a more offensive nature, what truly would be a game changer would be for this passive to have a line that would make it so that when you had a ice staff equipped it would make magic damage abilities deal ice damage instead.
This would actually solve the problem of having few ice damage abilities since the entire Animal Companion skill line would now deal frost damage and not having to butcher a playstyle, magic damage mag wardens, in favor of another, frost damage mag wardens by changing skills damage types.

Increasing chilled damage or chilled excute would be nice however i feel it would still be underwhelming due to chilled weak base damage and, as stated above, other players could be applying the effect and the bonus would become redundant.

I agree frost theme builds are in a way better place then they were and have been getting better for some time now but they're still not there yet.

we'd have to be careful not to give the ice staff an effect too powerful for dps. something like 4-5% crit chance would likely be more in-line given it has the block bonus.

having a passive that makes magic damage skills deal frost damage instead defeats the point of having frost skills. since any magic damage would become frost that'd basically remove any reasonable argument saying that "we don't have legit frost damage skills" because we wouldn't need to anymore since we could all just all use magic damage skills instead, i really doubt that they would change the visuals of every skill to look frosty. imagine you playing your frost mage, and a large amount of your skills are fake frost damage. they sure do gain bonuses from "being" frost damage but they're not visually. i don't think any player wanting to play a frost mage build would enjoy that. at the end of the day, this is a role-playing game, and i know that wouldn't feel very good as someone wanting to build a full frost build.
A redo of this passive in its entirety is a very reasonable request, however, not this effect. i'd also be a little hesitant to add another passive skill that has any form of effect on chilled just because i think glacial presence already handles that sort of thing. chilled execute is fun, but maybe on a passive slot effect, active effect or even just as a 1-2 piece item set. (mythic/monster helm)

Whiskey_JG

Frost Shalks anyone??

ESO_Nightingale

Whiskey_JG wrote: »

Frost Shalks anyone??

man i really hope they redo some visual effects and sound effects to pull this off.

MashmalloMan

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

the reason why is guarenteed passive aoe chilled proc by 1 skill just means supports can abuse it for 100% aoe chilled uptime without having to actively press a skill or use charged. that's like the 1 unique thing we can even do right now as frost dps and having it guarentee chilled means killing that reason off, while also invalidating the point of glacial presence's increased chilled application effect. there's also other more interesting effects that could be added to it.

I get your point I really do, but I feel it’s half baked. I mean so what if a support is applying Chilled? If I am applying Chilled as well that’s just more group wide DPS. Also, as a damage spec my Chilled procs will be hitting harder anyway. Maybe, increased Chill Chance and damage could be added to Frostbite set. No supports will be running that set.

I don’t think supports applying Chilled really harms Frost DD in anyway. We will be applying it way more often and with high damage.

I did an extensive test a year or two ago, Winter's Revenge has anywhere between 4x to 5x the chance to apply chilled, this is multiplicative against your own status effect chance instead of being addative like status effect chance is.

Quick example, an aoe dot should be 1% chance to proc a status effect. If you add +100% status effect chance, that is 2%. If you add 200%, that is 3%.

Winters Revenge and morphs multiply that amount by 4-5x. So 3% becomes 12-15%. WR may just have 4-5% base instead, which effectively gives the same results.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/553749/wardens-winter-revenge-mechanics-experiment#latest

Any further change to this skill is unecessary regarding upkeep of status effect chance as it is already outperforming any aoe ground dot available in the game right now when it comes to status effect chance and as Nightingale said, if you over buff it, supports will slot it instead of dedicated DDs because it becomes too easy to apply chilled to mass amounts of enemies at a time.

If I'm honest, I think ZOS isn't even aware it works this way, but who knows.. I have yet to test the new Cliff Racer, Bear and Barbed Trap that all have increased status effect chances. They all do single target however, so I doubt ZOS would use multiplicative increases over addative ones, but we're talking about ZOS here so...

The only aoe dot that compares is DK's Breath, this is because for some reason, DK's Breath counts as single target dot damage which means each tick has a base 10% chance to proc instead of 1%. Eg. 10x more than it should. If this was deliberate, than Breath's scaling should change and should state as such like it does for Winters Revenge or Barbed Trap on PTS.

It is really odd to have single target sticky dots come from an aoe direct damage attack. Acid Spray is functionly identical to Breath, but is purely aoe in terms of scaling and status effect chance.

Back to WR.

Basically, with the skill alone you can already see around 60-70% chilled uptime with a staff and cp, 100% if you use charged, and/or a frost enchant.

The problem is, so much of Warden's pve dps relied on WR, Bear and Advanced Species on live. I'd say they can't really go much farther with WR without losing something at this point when you compare it to other aoe dots available, it also still slows enemies within it, on top of the status effect chance - a small damage buff may be warranted, but anything else is just going to get the skill nerfed in the future.

A better route to take would be to give Warden's increased Chilled damage by like +100% to make it a more reliable damage tool as it vastly underperforms vs Fire and Poison for damage, this would solidfy the idea behind the classes element synergy.

Really.. I'd like both Sorc and Warden to get similar treatment to match how good a DK feels to build for when it comes to that.

Mr_Stach

MashmalloMan wrote: »

A better route to take would be to give Warden's increased Chilled damage by like +100% to make it a more reliable damage tool as it vastly underperforms vs Fire and Poison for damage, this would solidfy the idea behind the classes element synergy.

Really.. I'd like both Sorc and Warden to get similar treatment to match how good a DK feels to build for when it comes to that.

I think that's kind of the golden ticket, I think that DK not only has many ways to proc their Elements,
fire and Poison , but how it synergizes with their kit is more complete:

World in Ruin: Increases the damage of your Flame and Poison attacks by 5%.

Searing Heat: Increases the damage over time of your Fiery Breath, Searing Strike, and Dragonknight Standard abilities by 33% and the duration by 4 seconds.

Combustion: Increases the damage of your Burning and Poisoned status effects by 50%. When you apply Burning to an enemy, you restore 1000 Magicka. When you apply Poisoned to an enemy, you restore 1000 Stamina. These effects can occur once every 3 seconds, individually of each other.

More damage, and oh more DoT damage, extra duration, burning and Poisoned status extra damage, and sustain from Burning and Status.

I don't want Warden or Sorc to be Carbon Copies of course, but I do think there needs to be better synergies for Shock and Frost, as well as their Status effects.

Also the should remove the healing on chilled allies. That's weird.

merpins

It's kinda weird; my Stam Warden got hit hard with the PTS, just like all my classes, but it got hit the least hard imo. Of course, my warden did top end damage (130ish k dps), and went down to 95k dps. It got hit the second hardest out of all my characters, but still remains the highest DPS character with the easiest rotation other than my oakensoul sorc (which is unplayable after the oaken nerf, got hit for a 38% damage decrease as well).

I brought it back up to 110k dps after the third PTS with some rotation changes. I don't think Warden is in a great place and I don't like the changes. But I'll say if the changes as they are right now were to go live, the only character I'd play until something else happens is my Warden.

Mr_Stach

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

It's kinda weird; my Stam Warden got hit hard with the PTS, just like all my classes, but it got hit the least hard imo. Of course, my warden did top end damage (130ish k dps), and went down to 95k dps. It got hit the second hardest out of all my characters, but still remains the highest DPS character with the easiest rotation other than my oakensoul sorc (which is unplayable after the oaken nerf, got hit for a 38% damage decrease as well).

I brought it back up to 110k dps after the third PTS with some rotation changes. I don't think Warden is in a great place and I don't like the changes. But I'll say if the changes as they are right now were to go live, the only character I'd play until something else happens is my Warden.

See that's the thing. Stamden, you're probably rocking Medium Armor right? so the extra Pen from Advanced species change is ok. But Magden typically in light, so pen doesn't add anything, so we just lose damage straight out.

That's what's frustrating for me.

And I know. People probably think we shouldn't put so much weight in one passive, but it's Wardens main damage passive, it's kind of important

merpins

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

It's kinda weird; my Stam Warden got hit hard with the PTS, just like all my classes, but it got hit the least hard imo. Of course, my warden did top end damage (130ish k dps), and went down to 95k dps. It got hit the second hardest out of all my characters, but still remains the highest DPS character with the easiest rotation other than my oakensoul sorc (which is unplayable after the oaken nerf, got hit for a 38% damage decrease as well).

I brought it back up to 110k dps after the third PTS with some rotation changes. I don't think Warden is in a great place and I don't like the changes. But I'll say if the changes as they are right now were to go live, the only character I'd play until something else happens is my Warden.

See that's the thing. Stamden, you're probably rocking Medium Armor right? so the extra Pen from Advanced species change is ok. But Magden typically in light, so pen doesn't add anything, so we just lose damage straight out.

That's what's frustrating for me.

And I know. People probably think we shouldn't put so much weight in one passive, but it's Wardens main damage passive, it's kind of important

I'm not saying I like the change. It obviously still effected my damage; decreased it by 27% before rotation changes. I'm sure that's in part due to AOE and LA changes. But I'm sure 10% of that is from the change to Advanced Species. See, when you test on the Trial dummy, especially after the buffs to it, having enough pen isn't a problem.

Imo, I think they should leave the change to Advanced Species... But add back the damage. The armor pen only helps stam builds be able to be more effective.

Also had the idea a while back of a way ZoS could change crit rate around. If they lowered the crit damage cap to 70 or 80%, then added skills that increase the crit damage cap. Add a CP star that increases the crit damage cap by 15% (3% per 10), another passive CP that increases the cap by 5%, add major and minor ruin which increases the cap by 10 and 20% respectively, and then... Add the damage cap increase to Advanced Species for a 10% increase. This idea came about in response to the PTS changes, and their insistence to lower crit as a thing to use.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

the reason why is guarenteed passive aoe chilled proc by 1 skill just means supports can abuse it for 100% aoe chilled uptime without having to actively press a skill or use charged. that's like the 1 unique thing we can even do right now as frost dps and having it guarentee chilled means killing that reason off, while also invalidating the point of glacial presence's increased chilled application effect. there's also other more interesting effects that could be added to it.

I get your point I really do, but I feel it’s half baked. I mean so what if a support is applying Chilled? If I am applying Chilled as well that’s just more group wide DPS. Also, as a damage spec my Chilled procs will be hitting harder anyway. Maybe, increased Chill Chance and damage could be added to Frostbite set. No supports will be running that set.

I don’t think supports applying Chilled really harms Frost DD in anyway. We will be applying it way more often and with high damage.

the issue really just comes down to minor brittle and that's why i'm being defensive. you just need consistent uptime on brittle in order to get the needed value with it, so increasing the uptime and sources of it more and more just means that there's no reason for brittle dps to bother doing that role.
If frost dps was able to do comparable levels of dps with non-frost builds, then they wouldn't have to crutch so hard on brittle being their sole reason for existing. it'd be nice if we lived in a world where playing frost dps was the same as literally any other weapon besides snb or resto, but that isn't the case right now. it's still weak and the playstyle is still a bit underdeveloped regarding set and skill options. little by little it gets closer with these kinds of changes. but it's still not quite there yet.

there's also the matter of there being a lot of chilled application bonuses being thrown around when it's already enough as is. if we are going to increase the dps, we need to have other effects that aren't just more chilled application chance. what about a chilled damage increase? guarenteed chilled crit? chilled execute?

Chill having Execute through a CP is a great idea.

Mr_Stach

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

It's kinda weird; my Stam Warden got hit hard with the PTS, just like all my classes, but it got hit the least hard imo. Of course, my warden did top end damage (130ish k dps), and went down to 95k dps. It got hit the second hardest out of all my characters, but still remains the highest DPS character with the easiest rotation other than my oakensoul sorc (which is unplayable after the oaken nerf, got hit for a 38% damage decrease as well).

I brought it back up to 110k dps after the third PTS with some rotation changes. I don't think Warden is in a great place and I don't like the changes. But I'll say if the changes as they are right now were to go live, the only character I'd play until something else happens is my Warden.

See that's the thing. Stamden, you're probably rocking Medium Armor right? so the extra Pen from Advanced species change is ok. But Magden typically in light, so pen doesn't add anything, so we just lose damage straight out.

That's what's frustrating for me.

And I know. People probably think we shouldn't put so much weight in one passive, but it's Wardens main damage passive, it's kind of important

I'm not saying I like the change. It obviously still effected my damage; decreased it by 27% before rotation changes. I'm sure that's in part due to AOE and LA changes. But I'm sure 10% of that is from the change to Advanced Species. See, when you test on the Trial dummy, especially after the buffs to it, having enough pen isn't a problem.

Imo, I think they should leave the change to Advanced Species... But add back the damage. The armor pen only helps stam builds be able to be more effective.

Also had the idea a while back of a way ZoS could change crit rate around. If they lowered the crit damage cap to 70 or 80%, then added skills that increase the crit damage cap. Add a CP star that increases the crit damage cap by 15% (3% per 10), another passive CP that increases the cap by 5%, add major and minor ruin which increases the cap by 10 and 20% respectively, and then... Add the damage cap increase to Advanced Species for a 10% increase. This idea came about in response to the PTS changes, and their insistence to lower crit as a thing to use.

So back in week 1 I was playing around with passives, just to make things jive a little better, this is where they currently stand:

Advanced Species:
1% Crit Chance and 1% Damage done per animal companion skill slotted.

Frozen Riposte (Previously Icy Aura):
When you apply a Chilled or Hemorrhaging Status Effect on an enemy, you increase your Armor Penetration by 1700 for 10 seconds. This effect can occur every 10 seconds.

Biting Cold:
Increase Frost and Bleed Damage by 10%

MindOfTheSwarm

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

It's kinda weird; my Stam Warden got hit hard with the PTS, just like all my classes, but it got hit the least hard imo. Of course, my warden did top end damage (130ish k dps), and went down to 95k dps. It got hit the second hardest out of all my characters, but still remains the highest DPS character with the easiest rotation other than my oakensoul sorc (which is unplayable after the oaken nerf, got hit for a 38% damage decrease as well).

I brought it back up to 110k dps after the third PTS with some rotation changes. I don't think Warden is in a great place and I don't like the changes. But I'll say if the changes as they are right now were to go live, the only character I'd play until something else happens is my Warden.

See that's the thing. Stamden, you're probably rocking Medium Armor right? so the extra Pen from Advanced species change is ok. But Magden typically in light, so pen doesn't add anything, so we just lose damage straight out.

That's what's frustrating for me.

And I know. People probably think we shouldn't put so much weight in one passive, but it's Wardens main damage passive, it's kind of important

I'm not saying I like the change. It obviously still effected my damage; decreased it by 27% before rotation changes. I'm sure that's in part due to AOE and LA changes. But I'm sure 10% of that is from the change to Advanced Species. See, when you test on the Trial dummy, especially after the buffs to it, having enough pen isn't a problem.

Imo, I think they should leave the change to Advanced Species... But add back the damage. The armor pen only helps stam builds be able to be more effective.

Also had the idea a while back of a way ZoS could change crit rate around. If they lowered the crit damage cap to 70 or 80%, then added skills that increase the crit damage cap. Add a CP star that increases the crit damage cap by 15% (3% per 10), another passive CP that increases the cap by 5%, add major and minor ruin which increases the cap by 10 and 20% respectively, and then... Add the damage cap increase to Advanced Species for a 10% increase. This idea came about in response to the PTS changes, and their insistence to lower crit as a thing to use.

So back in week 1 I was playing around with passives, just to make things jive a little better, this is where they currently stand:

Advanced Species:
1% Crit Chance and 1% Damage done per animal companion skill slotted.

Frozen Riposte (Previously Icy Aura):
When you apply a Chilled or Hemorrhaging Status Effect on an enemy, you increase your Armor Penetration by 1700 for 10 seconds. This effect can occur every 10 seconds.

Biting Cold:
Increase Frost and Bleed Damage by 10%

A while back Warden had a passive before it got launched that boosted Frost and Physical Damage but they changed it as Magdens needed it more than Stamdens. So it was changed to Magic and Frost. Stamdens have always been pretty solid. Magdens have trailed behind since launch. Frostdens that are specced for damage are at the bottom of the pile. It’s very hard going pure Frost as Scorch and Flies are so Critical. Even bear is important, hard to swap out bear for Icy Rage or Comet. Even Northern Storm which is the defacto damage morph cannot compete with the sustained damage that the bear brings. Northern Storm needs a look too.

Aldoss

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

the reason why is guarenteed passive aoe chilled proc by 1 skill just means supports can abuse it for 100% aoe chilled uptime without having to actively press a skill or use charged. that's like the 1 unique thing we can even do right now as frost dps and having it guarentee chilled means killing that reason off, while also invalidating the point of glacial presence's increased chilled application effect. there's also other more interesting effects that could be added to it.

I get your point I really do, but I feel it’s half baked. I mean so what if a support is applying Chilled? If I am applying Chilled as well that’s just more group wide DPS. Also, as a damage spec my Chilled procs will be hitting harder anyway. Maybe, increased Chill Chance and damage could be added to Frostbite set. No supports will be running that set.

I don’t think supports applying Chilled really harms Frost DD in anyway. We will be applying it way more often and with high damage.

A better route to take would be to give Warden's increased Chilled damage by like +100% to make it a more reliable damage tool as it vastly underperforms vs Fire and Poison for damage, this would solidfy the idea behind the classes element synergy.

I'd be fine with this. I still haven't heard a good argument as to why warden shouldn't have a passive that gives guaranteed minor brittle upon chilled status, although I suppose this would be yet another passive that buffs stamden more than magden.

I love the idea for chilled execute or boosted chilled damage. It would instantly give us boosted damage that would precisely target magden more than stamden.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

the reason why is guarenteed passive aoe chilled proc by 1 skill just means supports can abuse it for 100% aoe chilled uptime without having to actively press a skill or use charged. that's like the 1 unique thing we can even do right now as frost dps and having it guarentee chilled means killing that reason off, while also invalidating the point of glacial presence's increased chilled application effect. there's also other more interesting effects that could be added to it.

I get your point I really do, but I feel it’s half baked. I mean so what if a support is applying Chilled? If I am applying Chilled as well that’s just more group wide DPS. Also, as a damage spec my Chilled procs will be hitting harder anyway. Maybe, increased Chill Chance and damage could be added to Frostbite set. No supports will be running that set.

I don’t think supports applying Chilled really harms Frost DD in anyway. We will be applying it way more often and with high damage.

I did an extensive test a year or two ago, Winter's Revenge has anywhere between 4x to 5x the chance to apply chilled, this is multiplicative against your own status effect chance instead of being addative like status effect chance is.

Quick example, an aoe dot should be 1% chance to proc a status effect. If you add +100% status effect chance, that is 2%. If you add 200%, that is 3%.

Winters Revenge and morphs multiply that amount by 4-5x. So 3% becomes 12-15%. WR may just have 4-5% base instead, which effectively gives the same results.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/553749/wardens-winter-revenge-mechanics-experiment#latest

Any further change to this skill is unecessary regarding upkeep of status effect chance as it is already outperforming any aoe ground dot available in the game right now when it comes to status effect chance and as Nightingale said, if you over buff it, supports will slot it instead of dedicated DDs because it becomes too easy to apply chilled to mass amounts of enemies at a time.

If I'm honest, I think ZOS isn't even aware it works this way, but who knows.. I have yet to test the new Cliff Racer, Bear and Barbed Trap that all have increased status effect chances. They all do single target however, so I doubt ZOS would use multiplicative increases over addative ones, but we're talking about ZOS here so...

The only aoe dot that compares is DK's Breath, this is because for some reason, DK's Breath counts as single target dot damage which means each tick has a base 10% chance to proc instead of 1%. Eg. 10x more than it should. If this was deliberate, than Breath's scaling should change and should state as such like it does for Winters Revenge or Barbed Trap on PTS.

It is really odd to have single target sticky dots come from an aoe direct damage attack. Acid Spray is functionly identical to Breath, but is purely aoe in terms of scaling and status effect chance.

Back to WR.

Basically, with the skill alone you can already see around 60-70% chilled uptime with a staff and cp, 100% if you use charged, and/or a frost enchant.

The problem is, so much of Warden's pve dps relied on WR, Bear and Advanced Species on live. I'd say they can't really go much farther with WR without losing something at this point when you compare it to other aoe dots available, it also still slows enemies within it, on top of the status effect chance - a small damage buff may be warranted, but anything else is just going to get the skill nerfed in the future.

A better route to take would be to give Warden's increased Chilled damage by like +100% to make it a more reliable damage tool as it vastly underperforms vs Fire and Poison for damage, this would solidfy the idea behind the classes element synergy.

Really.. I'd like both Sorc and Warden to get similar treatment to match how good a DK feels to build for when it comes to that.

Being able to have chilled execute or increased damage means being able to run frost enchantments instead of fire or poison and I'm all for that.

Whiskey_JG

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

It's kinda weird; my Stam Warden got hit hard with the PTS, just like all my classes, but it got hit the least hard imo. Of course, my warden did top end damage (130ish k dps), and went down to 95k dps. It got hit the second hardest out of all my characters, but still remains the highest DPS character with the easiest rotation other than my oakensoul sorc (which is unplayable after the oaken nerf, got hit for a 38% damage decrease as well).

I brought it back up to 110k dps after the third PTS with some rotation changes. I don't think Warden is in a great place and I don't like the changes. But I'll say if the changes as they are right now were to go live, the only character I'd play until something else happens is my Warden.

See that's the thing. Stamden, you're probably rocking Medium Armor right? so the extra Pen from Advanced species change is ok. But Magden typically in light, so pen doesn't add anything, so we just lose damage straight out.

That's what's frustrating for me.

And I know. People probably think we shouldn't put so much weight in one passive, but it's Wardens main damage passive, it's kind of important

Not quite. I was using Stamden lately for my vDSR group. Since the group is really optimized I never had any pen issues. With a less optimized group, yes I might lose 1.5k of pen maybe but not a lot. I never really understood the changes they made to medium armor and weapons.

But I agree that for Magdens (if such a thing still exists...) the passive has no real benefit. You could say we can go 3pc medium on the body and not worry about pen but there are other passives that work better with a full light loadout.

Passive was already bad, since FG skills provided more damage than Animal skills, now its obsolete. Only thing I gain from this passive is that I can remove my Kra'gh helmets and replace them with crit pieces.

KeiRaikon

Between years of experience playing Magden and reading tons of different forum posts over the years its pretty obvious there are many different approaches ZOS could take to help Magdens but in the 5 years of Wardens existence the only real change they've done is the current iteration of Arctic Blast.

Between the refusal to help Magden and now the changes to Shalks timing I think I'm going to just permanently retire my Magden so I don't get frustrated literally every patch when they either make terrible changes or no changes to Magden.

ESO_Nightingale

KeiRaikon wrote: »

Between years of experience playing Magden and reading tons of different forum posts over the years its pretty obvious there are many different approaches ZOS could take to help Magdens but in the 5 years of Wardens existence the only real change they've done is the current iteration of Arctic Blast.

Between the refusal to help Magden and now the changes to Shalks timing I think I'm going to just permanently retire my Magden so I don't get frustrated literally every patch when they either make terrible changes or no changes to Magden.

even i'm surprised they finally listened after 5 years of constant begging.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

the reason why is guarenteed passive aoe chilled proc by 1 skill just means supports can abuse it for 100% aoe chilled uptime without having to actively press a skill or use charged. that's like the 1 unique thing we can even do right now as frost dps and having it guarentee chilled means killing that reason off, while also invalidating the point of glacial presence's increased chilled application effect. there's also other more interesting effects that could be added to it.

I get your point I really do, but I feel it’s half baked. I mean so what if a support is applying Chilled? If I am applying Chilled as well that’s just more group wide DPS. Also, as a damage spec my Chilled procs will be hitting harder anyway. Maybe, increased Chill Chance and damage could be added to Frostbite set. No supports will be running that set.

I don’t think supports applying Chilled really harms Frost DD in anyway. We will be applying it way more often and with high damage.

the issue really just comes down to minor brittle and that's why i'm being defensive. you just need consistent uptime on brittle in order to get the needed value with it, so increasing the uptime and sources of it more and more just means that there's no reason for brittle dps to bother doing that role.
If frost dps was able to do comparable levels of dps with non-frost builds, then they wouldn't have to crutch so hard on brittle being their sole reason for existing. it'd be nice if we lived in a world where playing frost dps was the same as literally any other weapon besides snb or resto, but that isn't the case right now. it's still weak and the playstyle is still a bit underdeveloped regarding set and skill options. little by little it gets closer with these kinds of changes. but it's still not quite there yet.

there's also the matter of there being a lot of chilled application bonuses being thrown around when it's already enough as is. if we are going to increase the dps, we need to have other effects that aren't just more chilled application chance. what about a chilled damage increase? guarenteed chilled crit? chilled execute?

Chill having Execute through a CP is a great idea.

CP, monster/mythic Item sets, passive slotted or active effects are all great ways to gain this bonus.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Winter’s Revenge was the biggest mess up of the entire patch for me. It is CENTRAL to a Frost DD damage output. If no direct buff is coming I don’t know what to suggest for it.
Maybe 100% guaranteed to apply Chill on each tick. That would essentially add an extra 700ish per second on a damage spec.

It really galls me that the “returned it to 10 seconds.” It’s a clear sign of not knowing the class and is downright unprofessional. Maybe it was poor wording in the notes and that could be more forgivable but I doubt it was that.

it's 12 seconds on pts which is how it should remain. they must have messed it up when translating it to the patch notes. gina does that sometimes.

also guarenteed chilled isn't really something i think it needs. if they're not going to return some damage to it, it'd be better to keep the current secondary effects as is, or remove chilled and add something pretty big to it.

Why be against Chilled being guaranteed? It’s a straight buff. Don’t forget that Chill can proc on targets already Chilled. There is no limit to how many times a target can receive chill damage. 4 seconds only applies to the maim and brittle effects. The damage can proc as often as it can given proc chance. And can proc at the same time from multiple sources. Why even suggest removing Chill? This would be another nerf that it doesn’t need. Adding Chill Chance is a straight up buff to Frost DPS and fits in with its role. This is why Frost Clench is the defacto Frost spammable as it has guaranteed Chill application. That’s an effective extra 800 damage on that skill.

Removing Chill or lowering Chill Chance is a direct damage nerf to a play style already underperforming. To be honest I would buff the Frostbite set and also add a line to its 5 piece. “Chill you inflict deals 20% more damage, increased to 40% more damage vs targets already Chilled.” It might see more use as a result.

the reason why is guarenteed passive aoe chilled proc by 1 skill just means supports can abuse it for 100% aoe chilled uptime without having to actively press a skill or use charged. that's like the 1 unique thing we can even do right now as frost dps and having it guarentee chilled means killing that reason off, while also invalidating the point of glacial presence's increased chilled application effect. there's also other more interesting effects that could be added to it.

I get your point I really do, but I feel it’s half baked. I mean so what if a support is applying Chilled? If I am applying Chilled as well that’s just more group wide DPS. Also, as a damage spec my Chilled procs will be hitting harder anyway. Maybe, increased Chill Chance and damage could be added to Frostbite set. No supports will be running that set.

I don’t think supports applying Chilled really harms Frost DD in anyway. We will be applying it way more often and with high damage.

the issue really just comes down to minor brittle and that's why i'm being defensive. you just need consistent uptime on brittle in order to get the needed value with it, so increasing the uptime and sources of it more and more just means that there's no reason for brittle dps to bother doing that role.
If frost dps was able to do comparable levels of dps with non-frost builds, then they wouldn't have to crutch so hard on brittle being their sole reason for existing. it'd be nice if we lived in a world where playing frost dps was the same as literally any other weapon besides snb or resto, but that isn't the case right now. it's still weak and the playstyle is still a bit underdeveloped regarding set and skill options. little by little it gets closer with these kinds of changes. but it's still not quite there yet.

there's also the matter of there being a lot of chilled application bonuses being thrown around when it's already enough as is. if we are going to increase the dps, we need to have other effects that aren't just more chilled application chance. what about a chilled damage increase? guarenteed chilled crit? chilled execute?

Chill having Execute through a CP is a great idea.

CP, monster/mythic Item sets, passive slotted or active effects are all great ways to gain this bonus.

I feel Icy Aura might be a way to get this. The snare resistance is pretty weak on its own.