Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes

Ingenon

Thanks for the update @ZOS_Gilliam.

I see several changes that are based upon feedback I have read on this forum.

I play on console, so I will have to wait until others post updated parses next week. I am still concerned about update 35 reducing average player dps, since I play trials and dungeons with guild mates between new content drops. If they get frustrated over lower dps and quit playing, that could leave me with not enough folks to group with.

Dragonlord573

I still don't get how after 8 years you guys don't have a consistent vision for how you want the combat to be. This should have been something thought about before the game was finished and you should have stuck to your guns. I could understand it if you wanted to shake things up once or twice throughout the years to try something new, but not more or less 35 times.

I'm glad you guys added Tales of Tribute because at this rate it's all I'm going to be able to enjoy. My end game is trifectas in DLC dungeons. This update will kill my preferred gameplay because my group will not have the DPS needed to clear the speedrun portions of those achievements.

xylena_lazarow

8.1.2 Notes: Based on player feedback, we have removed single-target sticky DoTs from the game.

DMuehlhausen

Sandman929 wrote: »

Is PvP even an afterthought when these changes are being tossed around?

No, and it shouldn't be. Trying to balance PvP and PvE in a game like this is mathematically impossible. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Tickna

I still don’t see how these changes will make gameplay any better for anyone at all levels. It looks like change for the sake of change.

Cominfordatoothbrush

So if I'm reading this right: and I'm hope I'm reading this right, ground HoTs will be back to 1 sec ticks? Well, that was my biggest concern and I'm glad to see it changing if so. As for sticky dots retaining their extended duration I guess we'll have to see how it works out. But two things about that stand out to me... 1, will this create a meta where filling your bars with ground dots is a priority over sticky ones? I guess it depends how you've adjusted the actual damage ticks. and 2, it doesn't sound like this at all addresses the concerns of PvPers with regards to how little sticky dots were hurting.

Aside from that... honestly can we just revert all combat back to Deadlands DLC. You want to nerf damage, we want dynamic gameplay and class identity, that will achieve it better than anything in U36 so far.

xaraan

This sounds like it only addresses a very small piece of the major list of problems with the patch and doesn't even address that piece well.

I'm sorry, but losing what little bit of faith I have left in you guys.

Lethallin

Honestly just leave all overtime abilities alone with their pre-update 35 timers at this rate lmao. None of these changes help anyone, and basically are making things worse for everyone.

If you’re pressed about dots and heavy attack builds in PvP then just release a battle debuff like they have in BGs, IC and Cyrodiil except for light/heavy attacks and dots (hots already are nerfed there).

xylena_lazarow

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

The game is a PvE game with PvP thrown on as an mini game for people who like it.

By that logic, you can say this is a casual questing/housing/RP game with competitive PvE endgame content thrown on as a mini game, and doesn't need to be balanced at all, just needs to fit the lore.

Anyway the single-target DoT nerfs are still terrible, PvE and PvP are going to be so much one button spam. Outside the coordinated guild groups which will have an extremely easy time adapting, I'm not sure what players are supposed to use for damage in PvP, burst combos were gutted by the LA/HA nerfs, and single-target sticky DoTs were deleted. We're going to be spamming DK Whip and Surprise Attack at each other in 35min pillow fights before walking away.

MetallicMonk

For PvP while healing was a problem it wasn't always necessarily just the amount of healing per tick it was people stacking multiple forms of the same heal together.

I think in PvP it should just be the way that other games have it as well, you should only be able to have one of each heal on you, you can stack different morphs but no multiples of the same HoT. Let the highest tooltip overwrite and take priority. There is no reason why people should have 3-5+ of the same exact heal constantly ticking on them+ the same amount of whatever other HoTs are running.

StabbityDoom

These reasons are... weird.

we're lowering damage because: it "feels" wrong, or scares mobs away before you can kill them...

why not just say power creep, because if there's any other reason to nerf, it doesn't overcome the massive hatred of the changes. Feeling wrong clearly doesn't matter to the populace above.

Personally I don't understand the math anyway, never did, and the combat system here seems to be made for math people. So I can't comment on that. I've never seen such a complex system, but I understand that's the appeal to some players.

I'm supportive and hopeful, but these reasons seem squishy and omit the big elephant in the room.

Sandman929

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Is PvP even an afterthought when these changes are being tossed around?

No, and it shouldn't be. Trying to balance PvP and PvE in a game like this is mathematically impossible. [snip]

The endgame PvE is even smaller than PvP, so I guess that shouldn't be considered either. All changes should be based on the Companion collectors working on progressing through vet non-dlc dungeons, because that's where the population is...Sadly, these changes hurt that crowd the most.

[edited to remove quote]

Caff32

Stop. Looking. At. Spreadsheets.
Start. Listening. To. Your. Players.
WE. DON'T. WANT. THESE. CHANGES.

GreatGildersleeve

Oh good grief. Just make weapons hit for 1000, spells hit for 1000, and dots/hots tick for 100. There. You’ve lowered dps, made everything equal, and let’s all bless the great god Excel.

As a console player I have no data driven feedback for you. All I can provide is anecdotal and this, is getting my sub cancelled. I was waiting for week 3 but honestly, other than watching it sail over everyone’s head, what’s the point.

Massive sigh.

Firstmep

So kind of as expected, minor adjustments, but still overall doing the same thing you guys set out to do.

This looks like damage control. You guys picked one thing you could budge on slightly, and then made a huge post about it, when in reality, you just moved some numbers around.

The core issues literally everyone has been complaining about have not been addressed at all whatsoever.

I get there might be more changes coming, but then why not include those here as well?

PurpleScroll

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A friendly reminder that providing data always helps us far more than anecdotal feedback, though both are still welcome.

This is, frankly, insulting. Various of us disabled folk came onto the forum stating how we cannot see this balance update helping us, and you basically turn around and say you don't find that helpful?

Good grief.

p00tx

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings, everyone. We’d like to update you all on where we are at with the PTS feedback we have seen and our plans of action. Firstly, we would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to go through the changes and hop onto the PTS to get hands-on experience before submitting their feedback. The sheer amount of data and in-game application has helped us tremendously to hone in on the problem spaces that the larger sentiments have pointed out, and has also given us a better idea of how to isolate and tackle those problems. Let’s quickly go over the main themes we would like to improve on.

There are three main issues we would like to address with some targeted adjustments in next week’s PTS patch. These mainly pertain to Damage and Healing over Time effects, as we’ve found those have been the focus of the majority of conversations between all types of players. The first is the loss of reactive gameplay with ticking Area of Effect-based abilities, where delayed tick rates make them feel far less reactive to their surroundings and further punish their lack of mobility as such. The second is how the extension of durations on Area of Effect-based abilities actively harms their effectiveness since their power has been stretched out over a longer period, further increasing their risk of targets not staying in the area. The final is how ESO has always been a game about choice, and how global standards can over-define the reality of ability portrayal and can actively harm that idea. Now, let us go over what you are probably really here for – what we are doing to address these points.

We have taken considerable time to go through and better differentiate standards for Damage and Healing over Time effects based on the type of ability it is. In next week’s patch, abilities that stick to a target (such as Fiery Breath or Lightning Form) will retain their longer duration effects, where they take longer to deal damage at an increased rate per cast, but less per second than what’s currently on the Live servers (i.e., all public servers that are not the PTS). Meanwhile, abilities that are bound to a static area, such as Wall of Elements or Spear Shards, will have shorter durations (closer or identical to their current versions on the Live servers) and less Damage per Cast, but more Damage per Second than their “sticky” counterparts. We have also adjusted the cost to be higher than those “sticky” abilities but will still cost less than they currently do on the Live servers. The standard details are as follows:

• “Sticky” over Time effects will retain their initial PTS iteration of 20+ second durations, 2 second frequencies, with .105 coefficient potency per second (their scaling modifier divided by time), and a baseline cost of 135 per second (2700+)
• Static over Time effects will return to their original duration of 10-15 second durations, 1 second frequencies, with .14 coefficient potency per second (U35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changesdown from .1575 on Live, but up from .105 on PTS), and a baseline cost of 270 per second (2700+)

It is our hope these new standards better differentiate the gameplay realities these skills have, reinforcing their strengths and weaknesses, while making them easier to engage with in some ways than compared to what’s currently on Live (easier to manage “sticky” effects, and overall, significantly less cost per second drains).

We have also spent more time looking at durations of where certain skills are sourced and are going to give them base line timers that follow a common denominator. For example, Stampede will remain a 15 second effect as Carve’s final duration is 30 seconds, making it easier to create a rotation where you align a ratio of casts to one another. We hope these differing standards allow you to better decide what type of pacing your build utilizes. If you prefer a higher risk and reward playstyle that is more challenging to keep up and manage, you can opt to take Static over Time abilities. Alternatively, if you want easier to utilize and safer skills with less risk, you can choose to use more Sticky over Time abilities, or a blend of both depending on the encounter or build you’re playing against.

After these changes go in next week, we will continue to monitor feedback and act accordingly where deemed necessary, so please continue to provide constructive takes and discussions. Note that we are already planning some additional changes for the Sorcerer and Warden, based on your feedback, that will go on the PTS before Update 35 launches. A friendly reminder that providing data always helps us far more than anecdotal feedback, though both are still welcome. Finally, thank you all for your patience and time in helping up improve upon these areas. May your roads lead to warm sands.

This directly addresses the biggest pain points we identified during testing. Thank you for hearing us. I look forward to seeing how your team further addresses the accessibility issues associated with the loss of heavy attack damage.

FlamingBeard

Spend less time nerfing class flavor and more time buffing your use of player feedback.

This update is digging a grave for a PvE endgame community on life-support and nailing the coffin shut on PvP.

CaptainVenom

DoT and HoT are just one of the problems. What about weaving? What about those weird nerfs on equipment such as oakensoul and dark convergence?

LeBrenn

You've shown us more than enough the utter disrespect and lack of concern you have for your custumers.

Good luck for those willing to endure this any longer.

spongebobmovieticket

Maybe I’m just projecting, but some of this wording seems a little passive aggressive. Kinda feels like there’s some animosity towards your player base, at least those who take the time to provide feedback, anecdotal or not. The majority of people providing feedback are the ones spending money on subscriptions and crowns and the general consensus of these people seems to be scrap this whole update. Just seems kinda pointless at this point, and the only reason y’all would want to implement the changes is to assert the fact that we have no say so in any of the decisions y’all make in this game. Understandable, but kinda messed up man.

Xandreia_

Caff32 wrote: »

Stop. Looking. At. Spreadsheets.
Start. Listening. To. Your. Players.
WE. DON'T. WANT. THESE. CHANGES.

^^^ this!!!

Snamyap

The_Lex wrote: »

Everyone, stay calm. Combat design will be radically different in 3 months or less.

/s

U35 is awesome, not as good as U34 but certainly beter than U36!

TPishek

These changes are still bad, they accomplish nothing for the stated goals, and they make the game arguable more confusing and less consistent. This is you doing busy work for the sake of busy work. Literally, just full revert all the dot changes and people would be more or less totally fine with everything else in the patch.

Faulgor

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

[*] Static over Time effects will return to their original duration of 10-15 second durations, 1 second frequencies, with .14 coefficient potency per second (U35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changesdown from .1575 on Live, but up from .105 on PTS), and a baseline cost of 270 per second (2700+)

May I ask how this coefficient was chosen? If the duration stays the same as on Live, why are we seeing a nerf in DPS compared to live? What's the rationale here? Who is this helping?

Elo106

Devs seem out of touch with the game, looking at math and spreadsheets, you should run some trials and pvp instead.

Arvendir

No one asked for these changes, no one likes these changes and, of course, you missed the point entirely

Wyrd88

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A friendly reminder that providing data always helps us far more than anecdotal feedback, though both are still welcome.

And, speaking of this. Guys, providing "anecdotal" feedback is all that left. Because if it's not coming from your magical spreadsheet you won't listen anyway. And we have so many examples of this: the whole Scalebreaker patch, when you overbuffed DoTs, the patch after it (don't remember the name, cause took a few month break lol), when you overnerfed them, Sloads meta, Proc meta, Thrassians, Malacath, Oakensoul in PVP, and that's just to name a few big cases. How many small case of this (like the most recent heals from Burning Embers or Coag, dmg from Crystal Weapon, now it's buff to Surprise Attack and weird changes to Arctic Blast), it's just impossible to count at this point. On literally all of these was provided data-driven feedback that was completely ignored.

I guess it's because it's a player based feedback, and not your spreadsheet pouring out some random numbers.

So aye, now you have to deal with this "anecdotal" feedback, guys.

StabbityDoom

Some people were asking for a translation of the above - I got one. Someone explained this to me in English because I don't understand the math or explanations above. (thanks Qrahe!)

Hots/dots that target a person (radiating regen/degeneration) or stick to a person (echoing vigor/engulfing flames) are getting the longer duration and less damage every other tick. Hots/dots that target a space (healing springs/wall of elements) will go back to the live version.

Elsonso

Well...

Unlike the common poster in here, I am encouraged by this. Of course, the details on Monday will finish the picture, but this feels like an improvement to some of what I was concerned about.

Overall, the loss of DPS didn't bother me as much as the ineffective feel to the DPS that was left. The pool noodle combat reference that came out of PTS Week 1 was not far off.

1) "Sticky Dots" were an issue due to the slow burn. I want to see the number on Monday.
2) "Static Dots" were a huge issue due to the slow burn and the increased ineffectiveness in any dynamic content. Happy to see movement here.
3) Light/Heavy attack damage change is a concern, which added to the lackluster application of DPS. I want to see if they improved things on Monday.
4) Individual skill changes (class, weapon, etc) are almost never an issue for me, and they really have to go out of their way to attract my attention with those changes. If that was all they had done this Update, I wouldn't have even bothered logging into PTS.

I doubt that they are doing much with #3, and it sounds like #1 may be a tiny bit better for PTS Week 3. The #2 issue was the real knife in the back for me.

I guess I will have to take my PTS install out of cold storage again and install PTS Week 3 to see what they did. I didn't install Week 2, and have actually deleted PTS off my main drive already. Backed it up, of course.