Guys calm down! Seriously (I give up on helping ya)

DarkStrifeYT

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.


Edit: I said calm down. Balancing stuff is not easy as everyone plays differently. ZoS wants to avoid and stop power creep. If you can not be civil, then you do not understand what balancing is. Also for those that claim its the lower end players, you aren't locked out, zos is again working on mutitudes of mathematical coding and programming nightmares while trying to balance legit everything to flatten the curve and make things fair for all.


Edit 2: the reason to calm down is so zos takes you seriously. Be civil and professional, because no business is going to listen to a tantrum. Should of been more clear.
Also i am a solo dps player and if you need to know i am just as much mad as the rest of you as it makes content harder to solo but not impossible.

edit 3: I wont be bothering to assist in those whom are getting royally angry and refuse to understand. I know im vague 99% of the time or not clear enough, however I am just trying to help being the middle ground and help calm a lot of people down. I am upset too at the whole nerf but saw it coming. I will just alter my builds the best I can and if not I will just wait. Again I fully understand the anger but not the complete tantrum. Have a good one all. I wish you all luck with this.

starkerealm

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

...but remember ZoS will fix it...

[Citation needed]

DarkStrifeYT

starkerealm wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

...but remember ZoS will fix it...

[Citation needed]

Lets see early dark convergence, mass pvp bots, new moons and twice born star op nerf, what else, one tameiel day one dueling soft lock issue, pet ai which included sorc, warden, and necro for the most part. Multitudes of issues that were community complaint that have been changed and/or fixed. Cheating issue, botting issue (in the most humourous ways by legit making what they were farming drop more more often or make an event (dragons for cats to deal with the dragon blood and bile bots with a good cause in mind)) and more.

Kusto

I agree with OP. Zos literally said in combat preview that they will work on balance issues after this patch. They will most likely tone down some of the HMs. It doesn't make any sense to keep current power creep just so the 0.00001% of the players can do trifectas while the rest of the game is braindead easy.
Dps needs to come down. This is the right decision and keeps the game healthy for the long term.

starkerealm

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

...but remember ZoS will fix it...

[Citation needed]

Lets see...

...early dark convergence...

Took six months to fix.

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

mass pvp bots

Took, literally years to fix.

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

new moons and twice born star op nerf

The former was nerfed three months later, the latter was nerfed years after the fact, and months after an exploit was discovered that let people continue using the set bonus while the set was not equipped (twice.)

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

what else, one tameiel

Took over a year from identifying a solution until implementation.

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

day one dueling soft lock issue

Yeah, that was a, "you cannot play the game, bug." They're pretty good about ironing those out when they hit the PTS.

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

pet ai which included sorc, warden, and necro for the most part.

Which took years, and to some extent is still not resolved. At least existential blastbones are (mostly) a thing of the past. Existential Bear and Clanfear are still a thing.

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Multitudes of issues that were community complaint that have been changed and/or fixed. Cheating issue

So, that started in 2014... and was still going on in 2018... not sure it's been fixed.

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

botting issue (in the most humourous ways by legit making what they were farming drop more more often or make an event (dragons for cats to deal with the dragon blood and bile bots with a good cause in mind)) and more.

Botting still hasn't been dealt with to this day. Ironically, they've had to break fundamental elements of the game to try to combat these guys and they're still out there farming away.

So, again, where is this idea that this will be fixed coming from? That they'll get the game back into a borderline playable state in six months or a year? Uh... yeah, this game cannot survive that.

Skjaldbjorn

Kusto wrote: »

I agree with OP. Zos literally said in combat preview that they will work on balance issues after this patch. They will most likely tone down some of the HMs. It doesn't make any sense to keep current power creep just so the 0.00001% of the players can do trifectas while the rest of the game is braindead easy.
Dps needs to come down. This is the right decision and keeps the game healthy for the long term.

@Kusto DPS needs to come down. No argument there.

Power creep needs to chill, no argument there.

Bolded is the issue. It either needs to come down together, or not at all. Releasing half-finished products is a Zos special and it's old and tired. Summerset was one of the most disgusting examples of "Here's half the plan, now just wait 3-6 months for the rest of it" I have ever seen. That is abysmal design and shows both complete disregard for entire subsets of the community, but also a staggering assumption that we're all stupid enough not to see how completely devoid of logic, reason and above all effort patches like this are.

If this DPS nerf came with increasing the time allowance for trifectas, I'd have a lot less beef. It doesn't take much to do that. Fix a line or two of code to adjust the time reqs. That's it. It can even be a short-term solution, that's fine. But instead, for all their "planning" and "parsing", it came with a fat wheelbarrow of "absolutely f all" in regards to the health of the end-game and the ability for mid-tier players to climb.

starkerealm

@DarkStrifeYT, also you're kinda missing the forest for the trees here. The problem isn't the nerfs themselves, it's that people are seriously [redacted] tired of having to relearn the game every three to six months.

The game that exists on live is not the game that exists on the PTS. You can say, "well, but, it's got the same skills, and most of the same art assets," but it's not the game. When you actually play it, it's a drastically inferior experience. It feels worse to play in almost every case.

If you're having a hard time grasping this, it would be like if they replaced ESO with Blades and told you, "no, really, this is what you'll be playing for the next 3 months." It's an inferior knockoff wearing (mostly) the same outfit.

For people at endgame, it doesn't matter if they can get around the nerfs, the combat team has been telling them to relearn the game every three to six months for the past four years, and the community is hemorrhaging top end talent as a result.

Worse, this time, in the combat team's campaign to [redacted] with the endgame players, they're actually degrading the experience for everyone.

So, when you say, "it'll be fixed," I have to tell you, no it [redacted] won't, because the combat team is already digging their heals in and sulking about us not understanding their genius vision of what they want the game to be. And, that vision would be a hell of a lot more compelling if they didn't completely change their mind every three minutes.

MashmalloMan

Kusto wrote: »

I agree with OP. Zos literally said in combat preview that they will work on balance issues after this patch. They will most likely tone down some of the HMs. It doesn't make any sense to keep current power creep just so the 0.00001% of the players can do trifectas while the rest of the game is braindead easy.
Dps needs to come down. This is the right decision and keeps the game healthy for the long term.

DPS goes up and down, meta shifts, thats not why most people are upset (although they've nerfed the low end too which defeats the purpose of their goals).The fact of the matter is, PTS is not fun to play. They've ruined the combat system.

You're telling me it's okay to wait patches for them to fix that? No. It will be too late.

This is the straw that will break the camels back for a lot of people if they don't iron out the issues during PTS and they have a long list of problems to go through makes it feel impossible.

ZOS does not fix problems promptly. We usually wait 3-9 months at a time for the problems addressed to get fixed, something like this could take years if not handled now. Thats not okay. The outrage is completely justified.

Above all else, everyone is just tired of having to relearn the game and make new builds every 3 months. It's not fun. If the game isn't fun, it's no longer worth playing. Period.

lordspyder

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

MashmalloMan

lordspyder wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

Yep. Even the mid tier players are losing 10-20% dps and are already having a hard time progessing through vet trials. This is extremely demoralizing. The casual, new player doesn't understand what these changes will do to them and they're taking ZOS's mission statement blindly.

They have a good objective, they have failed to execute on that objective.

starkerealm

MashmalloMan wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

Yep. Even the mid tier players are losing 10-20% dps and are already having a hard time progessing through vet trials. This is extremely demoralizing. The casual, new player doesn't understand what these changes will do to them and they're taking ZOS's mission statement blindly.

They have a good objective, they have failed to execute on that objective.

It's significantly higher than 20% on the low end players. In most cases, without scuttling and reworking your build, if you were on the low end, you're looking at something closer to 40% loss.

And, of course the heavy attack builds out there just got completely shafted. If you went with one of Xy's Easysorcs because you had issues with your hands, you're basically going to be locked out of the vet content you were running until ZOS decides to completely rebalance the game in your favor, on the Thursday after never.

Kusto

lordspyder wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

Which content are you gonna be locked out that you currently do? If you currently do overland and maybe normal dungeons then sure, you not gonna be able to do vet trials next patch, and you shouldn't be able to. Zos can't make anyone capable. People need to get better themselves.
Or do you mean to tell me that you're currently doing vet content and can't the next patch? That's simply not true. Dps will be slightly lower but you're not locked out. I've not done any trials on pts due to no group but I've cleared vMA, vVH and soloed dungeons like I currently on live without any issues.
Also the parses I've seen here and on reddit, the lower end didn't lose much at all. Some even gained. People who currently parse 70-80k+ took 20-25% loss.

lordspyder

Kusto wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

Which content are you gonna be locked out that you currently do? If you currently do overland and maybe normal dungeons then sure, you not gonna be able to do vet trials next patch, and you shouldn't be able to. Zos can't make anyone capable. People need to get better themselves.
Or do you mean to tell me that you're currently doing vet content and can't the next patch? That's simply not true. Dps will be slightly lower but you're not locked out. I've not done any trials on pts due to no group but I've cleared vMA, vVH and soloed dungeons like I currently on live without any issues.
Also the parses I've seen here and on reddit, the lower end didn't lose much at all. Some even gained. People who currently parse 70-80k+ took 20-25% loss.

I completed vVH for the first time this week. I can't do it on PTS. Not even close.

Mr_Stach

I know you probably mean well but telling people to calm down is the least effective way to calm people down.

But I digress, it's more than the patch it's the whole Rollercoaster, people are sick of giant sweeping changes. They want to lower the ceiling, fine. But Don't drop it on people in the name of accessibility.

starkerealm

Kusto wrote: »

Which content are you gonna be locked out that you currently do?

Whatever you are currently progging on.

I keep seeing this one, and the answer really is, "whatever you enjoy doing right now."

If you're doing overland content, and nothing else, this patch will seriously bump the difficulty for you. That may, or may not, be a good thing on its own, but it's going to bump the difficulty by slowing down your damage while leaving the enemies intact.

If you're getting into normal dungeons, you'll probably find people in the group finder who can still carry you... but you're no longer actually pulling your own weight. How you feel about this is, of course, subjective.

If you're getting into normal trials, it's mostly the same situation as with dungeons. You're not going to be meaningfully contributing if this is as far as you've gotten.

If you're just getting into vet dungeons, that door is closed, and you're going to need to start working some more. If you were just graduating from base game vet to DLC vet, you're not going to be able to do DLC vet anymore (and, probably going to have some difficulty getting carries through that.)

If you're just getting into vet trials, and running the craglorn three, you're probably going back to normals, it depends on the people in your pug.

If you were progging DLC vet trials, you're losing months, or in some cases, years of progress.

So, if someone was working on getting their DLC dungeon trifectas, and still hasn't gotten the ones they want, those are going to be less accessible.

If you were doing vet trials, your prog team got pushed back, and it's very likely that your prog team will disband, or at least lose a significant chunk of it's experienced members, simply because a lot of vets (myself included) are tired of this [redacted].

It's not like there's a single answer, but whatever you were doing and enjoying before, you'll be locked out of some of that after this lands.

Skjaldbjorn

Kusto wrote: »

Which content are you gonna be locked out that you currently do? If you currently do overland and maybe normal dungeons then sure, you not gonna be able to do vet trials next patch, and you shouldn't be able to. Zos can't make anyone capable. People need to get better themselves.
Or do you mean to tell me that you're currently doing vet content and can't the next patch? That's simply not true. Dps will be slightly lower but you're not locked out. I've not done any trials on pts due to no group but I've cleared vMA, vVH and soloed dungeons like I currently on live without any issues.
Also the parses I've seen here and on reddit, the lower end didn't lose much at all. Some even gained. People who currently parse 70-80k+ took 20-25% loss.

I am currently progging PB. Given the DPS losses, DoT functionality changes and need to effectively redesign every strat we've been using since this prog started months ago, I do not believe for one second PB will be an attainable achievement for us.

Also, the 70-80k people are the mid tier. I'd say 70-90k is just mid tier players. The current 100k+ parses are those famed "toxic" end-gamers.

Tannus15

Kusto wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

Which content are you gonna be locked out that you currently do? If you currently do overland and maybe normal dungeons then sure, you not gonna be able to do vet trials next patch, and you shouldn't be able to. Zos can't make anyone capable. People need to get better themselves.
Or do you mean to tell me that you're currently doing vet content and can't the next patch? That's simply not true. Dps will be slightly lower but you're not locked out. I've not done any trials on pts due to no group but I've cleared vMA, vVH and soloed dungeons like I currently on live without any issues.
Also the parses I've seen here and on reddit, the lower end didn't lose much at all. Some even gained. People who currently parse 70-80k+ took 20-25% loss.

There are multiple posts from vet trials groups who are unable to complete content on PTS that they can currently complete on live. your vVH and vMA are a joke compared to vSS HM portals or the vKA HM last boss healing problems.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Basically every HM trial since vSS is being pushed out of reach of all bar the best groups, and even they are saying if they do everything perfectly players will still die.

I lead a vet trial guild and we've done vSS HM. We will be unable to complete it.
We've done vKA HM. We will be unable to complete it.

We're progging vRG HM. This will just stop.

So we have a group of players who do trials Thursday and Sunday nights who will not only not longer be able to progress the content we've spent 6 months progressing on, but we can't even complete the content we have previously cleared.
What do we do for 3 months or more while we wait for ZoS to maybe fix things?

Either they will have to buff us back up or nerf content. That is literally the only solution here.

We go into a holding pattern, we stop doing trials waiting for a fix in the future and then hopefully we can reform the guild next year?

You honestly can't see why we're the raiding community is freaking out about this?
I promise you, if these changes go live in the state they are in, it will gut our guild and there is a good chance we will not be able to recover.
This is not hyperbole, this is not over reacting or "doom and gloom".

peacenote

Actually, OP, while it may be that a few people are freaking out and causing drama, I'm see a LOT of logical, clear, and well-thought out posts about why U35 is problematic.

People seem pretty calm to me. Just because they don't like the changes doesn't mean they aren't calm. The issue, which has been pointed out in many ways by experienced players, is that the changes don't address the stated goals.

Also I'm not sure I want to be in a game that levels the playing field for all, and I am not sure anyone has actually asked for that. Brand new players don't need to complete vet trials or dungeons. They can do normal versions for the stories. The harder achievements are just for people who want to challenge themselves. I wouldn't want to play a game where all content is accessible without any effort to make a build or obtain gear or practice whatsoever. BORING!

Kusto wrote: »

I agree with OP. Zos literally said in combat preview that they will work on balance issues after this patch. They will most likely tone down some of the HMs. It doesn't make any sense to keep current power creep just so the 0.00001% of the players can do trifectas while the rest of the game is braindead easy.
Dps needs to come down. This is the right decision and keeps the game healthy for the long term.

First, it doesn't seem Ok to me to change combat so content is unreachable and then wait a whole other cycle before possibly bringing the content into reach, while still collecting subscription $$$. That's a HUGE amount of faith they are asking for players, and for people trying to advance in the game, what do they do in the meantime?? Second, the 0.00001% stat you list there is definitely made up.

I think the defenders of these changes, in this particular case, may not be seeing the big picture. Others have explained the situation better than I ever could, so I'll simply say read through the links in my signature if you want to understand why the criticisms are not from people who are upset that their parse is lower but are people just as concerned about the overall health of the game as the OP is.

Malkosha

Kusto wrote: »

I agree with OP. Zos literally said in combat preview that they will work on balance issues after this patch. They will most likely tone down some of the HMs. It doesn't make any sense to keep current power creep just so the 0.00001% of the players can do trifectas while the rest of the game is braindead easy.
Dps needs to come down. This is the right decision and keeps the game healthy for the long term.

This is what bothers me. Retool the game and any problems will be fixed in the future. It begs to question ... how long we will have to play a possibly broken game before those changes are made? Surely, they could have reduced the overall damage without changing every class and esp the core game combat system. It just seems like overkill to me.

I've taken some of my chars to the PTS and tested them on various types on content. As of now, my main Stamcro who uses LA/HA extensively, is under performing to the extent where he is unplayable for the content I'm doing. Thankfully, he's also a crafter so at least he still has a purpose to exist. My other chars can do the content but takes much longer to kill stuff and for some reason I still haven't figured out, they seem to eat through resources at a much faster rate ... which isn't fun when HA's seemingly return those resources over a much longer time period. Of course the slow return of resources could be observational error on my part.

I think it's unreasonable to crucify the Dev team on the first iteration of a test patch, but with the massive sweeping changes in the time they've allotted themselves, I have no doubt most of this will go live. If I'm wrong, please correct me. These changes concern me greatly and I've yet to make a decision about what to do about it. I have options but I don't want to overreact. I understand you wanting to support the Dev's but there comes a time when you have to look at the big picture and lets face it ... this current picture isn't a work of art. I question whether it will ever be one.

Matteo11

Yes, we shouldn't delve into hysteria, or be abusing the devs. Unfortunately, no forum debate can exists without toxic actors arriving from all sides. Those who do so are also unlikely to be swayed by a well meaning post.

It doesn't hurt to remind people to be civil with the devs, but I also think that kind of message is held up where its not necessary. An exaggeration used as a smoke screen for some bad practices on their part.

Some very critical feedback is very appropriately due at this time. The current version of this patch is so bad for the game that its mindblowing. Especially when you consider tweets made by the devs, downplaying concerns over the patch, along with the past behaviors when it comes to the devs forcing bad changes thru.

I think messaging to back off from this issue is ultimately gonna sound patronizing at this time, and promote the side of stagnation that has, and will, allow harmful changes to bring ESO down further.

I would urge those skeptical of these concerns to log into PTS and test.

DarkStrifeYT

peacenote wrote: »

Actually, OP, while it may be that a few people are freaking out and causing drama, I'm see a LOT of logical, clear, and well-thought out posts about why U35 is problematic.

People seem pretty calm to me. Just because they don't like the changes doesn't mean they aren't calm. The issue, which has been pointed out in many ways by experienced players, is that the changes don't address the stated goals.

Also I'm not sure I want to be in a game that levels the playing field for all, and I am not sure anyone has actually asked for that. Brand new players don't need to complete vet trials or dungeons. They can do normal versions for the stories. The harder achievements are just for people who want to challenge themselves. I wouldn't want to play a game where all content is accessible without any effort to make a build or obtain gear or practice whatsoever. BORING!

Kusto wrote: »

I agree with OP. Zos literally said in combat preview that they will work on balance issues after this patch. They will most likely tone down some of the HMs. It doesn't make any sense to keep current power creep just so the 0.00001% of the players can do trifectas while the rest of the game is braindead easy.
Dps needs to come down. This is the right decision and keeps the game healthy for the long term.

First, it doesn't seem Ok to me to change combat so content is unreachable and then wait a whole other cycle before possibly bringing the content into reach, while still collecting subscription $$$. That's a HUGE amount of faith they are asking for players, and for people trying to advance in the game, what do they do in the meantime?? Second, the 0.00001% stat you list there is definitely made up.

I think the defenders of these changes, in this particular case, may not be seeing the big picture. Others have explained the situation better than I ever could, so I'll simply say read through the links in my signature if you want to understand why the criticisms are not from people who are upset that their parse is lower but are people just as concerned about the overall health of the game as the OP is.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I know you probably mean well but telling people to calm down is the least effective way to calm people down.

But I digress, it's more than the patch it's the whole Rollercoaster, people are sick of giant sweeping changes. They want to lower the ceiling, fine. But Don't drop it on people in the name of accessibility.

I know its a rollercoaster but its just the factor people are going crazy so much that sheogorath would say its too much for him. If people want to be taken seriously by zos at this point then they need to calm down. Also people have forgotten: weaving (animation canceling) was and is an unintended feature (bug) and became generally accepted due to the dps increase it gave by a ton. Dps bar is set too high and zos knows this. The people who complain they got to relearn the game are acknowledging the factor they have long since used these over powered mechanics in eso for so long they have become desensitized to it. Due to dps being well over 100k thus forces zos to raise the bar and pretty much gatekeep the casuals and lower end out of new content.

Skjaldbjorn

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

I know its a rollercoaster but its just the factor people are going crazy so much that sheogorath would say its too much for him. If people want to be taken seriously by zos at this point then they need to calm down. Also people have forgotten: weaving (animation canceling) was and is an unintended feature (bug) and became generally accepted due to the dps increase it gave by a ton. Dps bar is set too high and zos knows this. The people who complain they got to relearn the game are acknowledging the factor they have long since used these over powered mechanics in eso for so long they have become desensitized to it. Due to dps being well over 100k thus forces zos to raise the bar and pretty much gatekeep the casuals and lower end out of new content.

While weaving is effectively a bug, Zos basically just shrugged and accepted it. Bit late to about-face on that. The DPS is too high. I've been saying that since Elsweyr. The LA changes are honestly the least damning thing in the list. The rest of the changes are why people are lashing out, and it's not just because "DPS go down". It makes DoTs god awful in a fair few fights, and makes some content damn near unachieveable for most groups, if not completely.

If they want to bring the hammer down on DPS, it absolutely must come in the same patch as the content revisions. Period. Nothing less is even remotely acceptable.

Mr_Stach

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Actually, OP, while it may be that a few people are freaking out and causing drama, I'm see a LOT of logical, clear, and well-thought out posts about why U35 is problematic.

People seem pretty calm to me. Just because they don't like the changes doesn't mean they aren't calm. The issue, which has been pointed out in many ways by experienced players, is that the changes don't address the stated goals.

Also I'm not sure I want to be in a game that levels the playing field for all, and I am not sure anyone has actually asked for that. Brand new players don't need to complete vet trials or dungeons. They can do normal versions for the stories. The harder achievements are just for people who want to challenge themselves. I wouldn't want to play a game where all content is accessible without any effort to make a build or obtain gear or practice whatsoever. BORING!

Kusto wrote: »

I agree with OP. Zos literally said in combat preview that they will work on balance issues after this patch. They will most likely tone down some of the HMs. It doesn't make any sense to keep current power creep just so the 0.00001% of the players can do trifectas while the rest of the game is braindead easy.
Dps needs to come down. This is the right decision and keeps the game healthy for the long term.

First, it doesn't seem Ok to me to change combat so content is unreachable and then wait a whole other cycle before possibly bringing the content into reach, while still collecting subscription $$$. That's a HUGE amount of faith they are asking for players, and for people trying to advance in the game, what do they do in the meantime?? Second, the 0.00001% stat you list there is definitely made up.

I think the defenders of these changes, in this particular case, may not be seeing the big picture. Others have explained the situation better than I ever could, so I'll simply say read through the links in my signature if you want to understand why the criticisms are not from people who are upset that their parse is lower but are people just as concerned about the overall health of the game as the OP is.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I know you probably mean well but telling people to calm down is the least effective way to calm people down.

But I digress, it's more than the patch it's the whole Rollercoaster, people are sick of giant sweeping changes. They want to lower the ceiling, fine. But Don't drop it on people in the name of accessibility.

I know its a rollercoaster but its just the factor people are going crazy so much that sheogorath would say its too much for him. If people want to be taken seriously by zos at this point then they need to calm down. Also people have forgotten: weaving (animation canceling) was and is an unintended feature (bug) and became generally accepted due to the dps increase it gave by a ton. Dps bar is set too high and zos knows this. The people who complain they got to relearn the game are acknowledging the factor they have long since used these over powered mechanics in eso for so long they have become desensitized to it. Due to dps being well over 100k thus forces zos to raise the bar and pretty much gatekeep the casuals and lower end out of new content.

Are you reading our feedback or just assuming it's about the weaving. Mostly everyone is generally ok with the Light and Heavy Attack changes and Nerf to weaving, with the exception to the HA Build Crowd and Werewolf Crowd specifically.

The MUCH larger issue is the mishandling of DoTs which is plummeting people's DPS by a large margin. Because not only ar the DoTs ticking slower but for several classes (Warden for example) the DoT are Ticking for less on top of that. It's just hurting builds across the board.

Then there's other individual changes to things that are hurting classes. Both Sorcerer and Warden have had several significant changes that make the rest of the changes hit much harder.

We're not just crying wolf here, these changes will have significant implications on the eso community for anyone trying to do anything more than their daily normal dungeon.

DarkStrifeYT

lordspyder wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

Well we can always revert before one tamriel where the level and attributes matter so you will be content locked till you are on the same level or higher of things or be one shot. That also includes craglorn (v16) and dlcs being v16 also trials and areans will be 100% of you needing cp 1200+ or be 1 shot. When the cp back then cap was around 300 then raised over 600, then 900.

DarkStrifeYT

starkerealm wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

Yep. Even the mid tier players are losing 10-20% dps and are already having a hard time progessing through vet trials. This is extremely demoralizing. The casual, new player doesn't understand what these changes will do to them and they're taking ZOS's mission statement blindly.

They have a good objective, they have failed to execute on that objective.

It's significantly higher than 20% on the low end players. In most cases, without scuttling and reworking your build, if you were on the low end, you're looking at something closer to 40% loss.

And, of course the heavy attack builds out there just got completely shafted. If you went with one of Xy's Easysorcs because you had issues with your hands, you're basically going to be locked out of the vet content you were running until ZOS decides to completely rebalance the game in your favor, on the Thursday after never.

Heavy attacks were meant to restore resources and having stuff to buff heavy attacks were a recent thing given. Aka imbume weapon, crystal weapon, etc.

DarkStrifeYT

Matteo11 wrote: »

Yes, we shouldn't delve into hysteria, or be abusing the devs. Unfortunately, no forum debate can exists without toxic actors arriving from all sides. Those who do so are also unlikely to be swayed by a well meaning post.

It doesn't hurt to remind people to be civil with the devs, but I also think that kind of message is held up where its not necessary. An exaggeration used as a smoke screen for some bad practices on their part.

Some very critical feedback is very appropriately due at this time. The current version of this patch is so bad for the game that its mindblowing. Especially when you consider tweets made by the devs, downplaying concerns over the patch, along with the past behaviors when it comes to the devs forcing bad changes thru.

I think messaging to back off from this issue is ultimately gonna sound patronizing at this time, and promote the side of stagnation that has, and will, allow harmful changes to bring ESO down further.

I would urge those skeptical of these concerns to log into PTS and test.

Well the problem is that people throw a tantrum and expect ZoS to be like Jagex and listen to the mass tantrum spam. (Riots) ZoS isn't jagex and does fix issues eventually but also doesn't want eso to be easy like what jagex does. Aka ZoS isnt Jagex.

lordspyder

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

Well we can always revert before one tamriel where the level and attributes matter so you will be content locked till you are on the same level or higher of things or be one shot. That also includes craglorn (v16) and dlcs being v16 also trials and areans will be 100% of you needing cp 1200+ or be 1 shot. When the cp back then cap was around 300 then raised over 600, then 900.

and when I hit that wall back then I quit until 1 Tamriel. I'll do the same here. Thank you

Matthew_Galvanus

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Are you reading our feedback or just assuming it's about the weaving. Mostly everyone is generally ok with the Light and Heavy Attack changes and Nerf to weaving, with the exception to the HA Build Crowd and Werewolf Crowd specifically.

The MUCH larger issue is the mishandling of DoTs which is plummeting people's DPS by a large margin. Because not only are the DoTs ticking slower but for several classes (Warden for example) the DoT are Ticking for less on top of that. It's just hurting builds across the board.

Then there's other individual changes to things that are hurting classes. Both Sorcerer and Warden have had several significant changes that make the rest of the changes hit much harder.

We're not just crying wolf here, these changes will have significant implications on the ESO community for anyone trying to do anything more than their daily normal dungeon.

I want to add to this and speak on my experience as a Magsorc. I could deal with the weaving being capped, i won't pretend like it isn't something i struggle with, especially in end game content like vSS HM. However, pet sorcerer has been my build since the beta and now it will be impossible to keep playing Sorcerer in the way that I enjoy because my damage has been gutted so thoroughly that even overland content is now frustrating beyond anything I've dealt with before.

I have stuck with this game through thick and thin, but I honestly feel like I've reached my breaking point. I am so tired of constantly having to rebuild from the ground up. My gear, my champion points, my skills, every time they make huge sweeping changes like this I end up having to completely redo my build, my rotation and I just can't do it anymore.

Being forced to redo everything each time they get an idea in their heads on how they can "balance" content has burned me out, any love I once had for this game has been steadily withering away and if they push these changes through with little or no adjustments, then it will be the very last straw for me. I have long since stopped having fun, but stuck around with a vain hope that they might finally get their act together and stop mindlessly pushing changes that have been nothing but detrimental to the health of this game.

Tannus15

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Hello everyone, I understand people are upset with the PTS but remember its the public TEST server. I understand the dps loss is huge but remember ZoS will fix it and most likely will increase the flat damage to compensate for the loss. The only time that testing was done outside of the pts was the pvp test due to the factor pvp isn't constant on the PTS. Things are bound to change and balance out on the PTS. Its not in the main game as of now. ZoS is trying to fix the learning curve ans flattening it out. Also when sets are op they will nerf it. Be civil to the devs guys. Don't just leave because you are upset at the PTS, again ZoS does not want a loss in dps/heal/tanking, they just want to make it an even playing field for all.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. the problem in not the high end but what this patch does to us on the lower end. How long will I be locked out of content?

Well we can always revert before one tamriel where the level and attributes matter so you will be content locked till you are on the same level or higher of things or be one shot. That also includes craglorn (v16) and dlcs being v16 also trials and areans will be 100% of you needing cp 1200+ or be 1 shot. When the cp back then cap was around 300 then raised over 600, then 900.

the power creep has nothing to do with CP or light attack weaving.
CP 2.0 is weaker than CP 1.0 and just last patch they nerfed the best damage CP nodes from 10% to 6% damage bonuses.

The actual cause of power creep

• Introduction of new debuffs and buffs. minor brittle, major vulnerability, major courage, minor courage, major slayer. the unique damage buff from pearlescent, sax heel increased duration of major force. the list goes on.
• new sets that give us easier access to these buffs. turning tide, kinra's, roaring opportunist etc.
• skills getting over buffed which far outshine other options. stampede, carve, crystal weapon.
• hybridazation allowed powerful sets like rele be used with very little draw back. before it was stam only, which meant melee only which is much harder to keep up light attacks. now i'm using it with double inferno staff builds.

the vMA leader boards are a perfect example of what i'm talking about. a high vMA score is 600k, it's the benchmark score pushers are going for. When thrassian's was released in it's OP state the leaderboard was seeing 610k or 620k scores. When thrassian got nerfed we saw scores drop back to 600k. Since the further nerfs i'm seeing even less 600k+ scores each week. Only the top 1 or 2 people, not the top 10. Some classes haven't hit 600k on live. Not one person.

Another example, lets take a look at 3m and 6m dummy parses in older sets. If I do a parse with julianos and mothers sorrow on the 3m dummy, it'll be around 45k, less on the 6m because of sustain issues.
That's spot on what I was getting 2 years ago.
I tested that on PTS and barely hit 40k

go back to that list of buffs and debuffs. They have added all of these to the 21m dummy! Of course the numbers are higher. Go look at the buffs and debuffs on the original 21m dummy, so many more have been added.

Every update, not chapter, update, they add a new set that adds to the group dps potential.
Then they nerf our characters because that potential is too high.

That's what this is. They are nerfing our characters because the group potential is too high. This is why it hurts solo players, small group players and less coordinated players more. Because they don't have good major vulnerability uptimes. They don't have good major slayer uptimes.

This is entirely the wrong approach. It makes content like vSS HM portal significantly harder because you don't have a full group worth of buffs helping you with that particular DPS check.

If they really want to raise the floor, then they need to move the buffs from group support to individual power.

shadyjane62

I don't believe Zos has the players best interests in mind. They are going to do what they want regardless of all the protest. It's how they operate. They have a reason they are doing this, that a lot of us don't agree is irrelevant to what the end result will be.

Some will adapt and a lot will leave.

This feels like Galaxies all over again.

NoSoup

Haha you must be new ..... there will be some minor tweaks but what's on the PTS now will largely be what makes it to live and then in a couple of patch cycles they will revert it again.

This is the way