Pronouns: Have Them, the Forums Should

thorwyn

I am not strictly against the idea, but I do not see the reason in a forum like this. People are already trying to avoid direct pronouns by using the @ name and the equivlaents of "they". Stating your prefered pronoun would just lead to situations where a poster might unintentionally offend a person because he uses the wrong pronoun by mistake. It is an additional source of conflict.

jaws343

The problem with this is, it is just another means to Other people in an otherwise anonymous forum. Even if it were optional, those who choose not to participate will most definitely be pre-judged based on that decision, as well as the pre-judging and potential for derision for those who do participate.

It's all so entirely unnecessary in this medium.

SpacemanSpiff1

jaws343 wrote: »

The problem with this is, it is just another mean to Other people in an otherwise anonymous forum. Even if it were optional, those who choose not to participate will most definitely be pre-judged based on that decision, as well as the pre-judging and potential for derision for those who do participate.

It's all so entirely unnecessary in this medium.

why would they be "pre-judged"?

quinten1221

No, Pronouns as he/him and she/her are being used. Nothing more nothing less. It adds nothing to the forums, just a way for getting attention again for no good reason.

Magenpie

Danikat wrote: »

demonology89 wrote: »

This is a forum to discuss a game. This is a community of gamers first and foremost.

I don't want to be addressed by anything other than my user name or "hey fellow gamer!" And to be blunt, I don't care to address anyone else here by anything other than a user name or "hey fellow gamer!"

So if I was explaining one of your posts to someone I'd say "demonology89 said that when demonology89 tried it demonology89 was told it wasn't compatible" instead of "said that she tried it..." or "said that they tried it..." or whatever?

As a one-off just using names instead of pronouns can work, but if you need to refer to a person more than once, especially within a sentence it gets very clunky.

(Pronouns are not a new thing, and include words like 'we' 'I' 'they' 'you' 'who' 'somebody' 'everyone' and 'us', basically any way of referring to someone which is not their name. Genuinely not using any is very impractical in English.)

But we generally use third person pronouns when the person we are referring to isn't there. The new way people wish to use pronouns is not the traditional sense.

I very much understand what you're saying with regard to assumptions about player demographics, and with regard to game design, narrative etc, where certainly in the past sexism and over sexualisation of female characters was rife. I'm not saying gaming in general doesn't still have a massive problem, but AAA MMOs *are* slowly addressing it, and I think things are gradually getting better.

However, this is a different thing. This is about real life information and, dare I say it, opinion being forceably pulled into, what is for the most part, a neutral space, and where there is already a feature allowing people to express as much information about themselves as they wish.

radiostar

Z could just enable sigs on mobile, IF signatures were limited to less than a manuscript of a manifesto. 😊

luen79rwb17_ESO

[snip]

This is a global forum which happens to have english as default language. That doesn't mean we're all northamericans from USA or Canada nor we all are natural speaking english, [snip]

Besides, the reason why forum usernames are created is exactly in order to protect people's identity and privacy.

If someone wants to come and make their gender public through a forum feature, then there's no reason to complain if someone else wants to come and make their:
"Race
Creed
Color
National Origin
Gender
Age
Disability
Sexual Orientation
Lifestyle
Any other personally identifying factors" public through a forum feature aswell

The [snip] thing to do is to keep forums neutral.

[edited for baiting]

spartaxoxo

Magenpie wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

demonology89 wrote: »

This is a forum to discuss a game. This is a community of gamers first and foremost.

I don't want to be addressed by anything other than my user name or "hey fellow gamer!" And to be blunt, I don't care to address anyone else here by anything other than a user name or "hey fellow gamer!"

So if I was explaining one of your posts to someone I'd say "demonology89 said that when demonology89 tried it demonology89 was told it wasn't compatible" instead of "said that she tried it..." or "said that they tried it..." or whatever?

As a one-off just using names instead of pronouns can work, but if you need to refer to a person more than once, especially within a sentence it gets very clunky.

(Pronouns are not a new thing, and include words like 'we' 'I' 'they' 'you' 'who' 'somebody' 'everyone' and 'us', basically any way of referring to someone which is not their name. Genuinely not using any is very impractical in English.)

But we generally use third person pronouns when the person we are referring to isn't there. The new way people wish to use pronouns is not the traditional sense.

They has been used as a first person pronoun on occasion since Shakespeare.

Magenpie

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Magenpie wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

demonology89 wrote: »

This is a forum to discuss a game. This is a community of gamers first and foremost.

I don't want to be addressed by anything other than my user name or "hey fellow gamer!" And to be blunt, I don't care to address anyone else here by anything other than a user name or "hey fellow gamer!"

So if I was explaining one of your posts to someone I'd say "demonology89 said that when demonology89 tried it demonology89 was told it wasn't compatible" instead of "said that she tried it..." or "said that they tried it..." or whatever?

As a one-off just using names instead of pronouns can work, but if you need to refer to a person more than once, especially within a sentence it gets very clunky.

(Pronouns are not a new thing, and include words like 'we' 'I' 'they' 'you' 'who' 'somebody' 'everyone' and 'us', basically any way of referring to someone which is not their name. Genuinely not using any is very impractical in English.)

But we generally use third person pronouns when the person we are referring to isn't there. The new way people wish to use pronouns is not the traditional sense.

They has been used as a first person pronoun on occasion since Shakespeare.

Do you mean as singular and plural third person? I'm not being difficult I just can't see how 'they' would work as a first person pronoun, or where it would exist in Shakespeare? Genuinely happy to learn something if I'm wrong.

Nestor

Another solution, just use the @Name, no pronouns needed. Nester said, I agree with Nestor, Nestor is funny....

Deanlolz

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I'm wondering if there even is a way, outside of the signature, to enter pronouns. If there isn't, could a mod confirm whether that's a possibility?

@ZOS_GinaBruno -- Happy to help with this. I work for a national LGBTQ+ rights org and can link to resources if they're needed. It would mean a lot and have an immediate positive impact on a lot of people.

No thank you!

defcon.dealer1b14_ESO

Imo, I don't see how this will make discussions concerning gameplay, on a game fourm any 'better/more productive'.

I have no issue if someone wants to identify as a meat popsicle etc....I'll still continue to use a fourm name and or OP. 🍻

spartaxoxo

Magenpie wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Magenpie wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

demonology89 wrote: »

This is a forum to discuss a game. This is a community of gamers first and foremost.

I don't want to be addressed by anything other than my user name or "hey fellow gamer!" And to be blunt, I don't care to address anyone else here by anything other than a user name or "hey fellow gamer!"

So if I was explaining one of your posts to someone I'd say "demonology89 said that when demonology89 tried it demonology89 was told it wasn't compatible" instead of "said that she tried it..." or "said that they tried it..." or whatever?

As a one-off just using names instead of pronouns can work, but if you need to refer to a person more than once, especially within a sentence it gets very clunky.

(Pronouns are not a new thing, and include words like 'we' 'I' 'they' 'you' 'who' 'somebody' 'everyone' and 'us', basically any way of referring to someone which is not their name. Genuinely not using any is very impractical in English.)

But we generally use third person pronouns when the person we are referring to isn't there. The new way people wish to use pronouns is not the traditional sense.

They has been used as a first person pronoun on occasion since Shakespeare.

Do you mean as singular and plural third person? I'm not being difficult I just can't see how 'they' would work as a first person pronoun, or where it would exist in Shakespeare? Genuinely happy to learn something if I'm wrong.

Sorry I meant singular not first person. Misremembered.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history

SilverBride

As others have mentioned, we are here to discuss the game, not each other. We have no reason to refer to other posters by anything other than their User ID.

EdmondDontes

No thank you.

Wolfpaw

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Wanted to chime in here. I don't believe there is a way to display pronouns in base Vanilla software. There must be a plug-in somewhere that can enable this, but not positive on that. So we can do some investigating on that and how it would play with our other languages. If there isn't a plug-in available, we can submit the idea to Vanilla as a potential feature to build in the future.

However, as others have noted, certainly feel free to note pronouns in your signature if you feel inclined to do so. No harm in that.

Asked and answered, good time to close topic?

spartaxoxo

We all refer to other poster's by pronouns all the time. I don't understand why it's a problem to know what the correct one is rather than just using a generic they/them. He/She gets used all the time by people on here as well, both because of people happening to know the person's gender e.g people may use her/she for Gina, or because the person just thoughtlessly guessed while writing their response since it's common to use he/she for a singular person.

Lady_Galadhiel

Isn't there more important subjects to talk about on the ESO forum than this?

Kahnak

Not sure what purpose this serves considering this and other forums are set up to facilitate anonymity. Knowing someone's pronouns isn't necessary for me to engage with their opinion on a game forum.

spartaxoxo

Blinx wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Isn't there more important subjects to talk about on the ESO forum than this?

Couldn't agree with you more.
I'm surprised it's still open tbh, as any other un ESO related topic would have surely been closed by now.

The ESO forum's interface is a legitimate topic of the ESO forums.

Mascen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Blinx wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Isn't there more important subjects to talk about on the ESO forum than this?

Couldn't agree with you more.
I'm surprised it's still open tbh, as any other un ESO related topic would have surely been closed by now.

The ESO forum's interface is a legitimate topic of the ESO forums.

I disagree. Please explain how it directly pertains to the game itself.

spartaxoxo

Mascen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Blinx wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Isn't there more important subjects to talk about on the ESO forum than this?

Couldn't agree with you more.
I'm surprised it's still open tbh, as any other un ESO related topic would have surely been closed by now.

The ESO forum's interface is a legitimate topic of the ESO forums.

I disagree. Please explain how it directly pertains to the game itself.

There was literally a sticky thread about forum avatars not too long ago. The ESO forums aren't only about the game itself. Topics such as the website (avatars, the icons being too big on the front page, website maintenance, interface), the community team (as long as it's not bashing, for example people used to talk about the need for an active and friendly CM til we got Kevin), outside fanart (there's an entire section of the forums dedicated to this), etc are all appropriate topics because they are all ESO related, even if they aren't about gameplay.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...I don't understand why it's a problem to know what the correct one is rather than just using a generic they/them...

The problem with that is who defines what the correct one is? This can open up a can of worms that we don't need in a gaming forum.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...I don't understand why it's a problem to know what the correct one is rather than just using a generic they/them...

The problem with that is who defines what the correct one is? This can open up a can of worms that we don't need in a gaming forum.

The person who selected it. The person who gets to define the "About Me" an any social media thing is the person filling it out.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...I don't understand why it's a problem to know what the correct one is rather than just using a generic they/them...

The problem with that is who defines what the correct one is? This can open up a can of worms that we don't need in a gaming forum.

The person who selected it. The person who gets to define the "About Me" an any social media thing is the person filling it out.

That is the can of worms I am referring to. Gender identity can be a controversial topic and we don't need that here.

Besides, these forums aren't a social media platform with the focus of getting to know each other. They are for discussing the game.

ZOS_Lunar

Hello!

After continued violations against both our Community Rules and Code of Conduct, we're going to go ahead and close this thread.

We want to ensure that everyone feels welcome and free to participate on the official ESO community forums, and hate speech is never acceptable. As Kevin noted here, we'll look into this option with Vanilla.

We take the use of hate speech very seriously in the official ESO community, and have a zero tolerance policy. Our definition of hate speech is prejudice or hateful comments, slurs, or statements that promote violence or intolerance toward others. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law.

Please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.