So... What's Wrong With a Skill Gap?

jm42

Stamicka wrote: »

It seems like these changes were made to make Veteran Mode more accessible to people, but what's wrong with them doing Normal Mode instead of Vet?

normal modes are extremely easy, you can just faceroll on your keyboards. even casual players can. and vet is extremelu hard for them. and that is the gap ZOS have to shorten.
and I agree with you

halucin0g3n

LordDragonMara wrote: »

As far as the damage goes i really don't care if it's 60, 70 or 100k. I think i was clear about that. My problem is with removing the skill from the game, as they are literally trying to do that.

There's still going to be a skill gap. But instead of 90k DPS difference between you and a beginner, it will be probably 40-50k. You'd still have to be able to master weaving and all that non-sense to be able to reach your DPS level.

That's what they're trying to to do. Keep beginners more relevant to top tier players.
Not to mention, how many people complained that the overland is too easy? Bringing down the maximum DPS fixes that as well.

Pepegrillos

Stamicka wrote: »

I see many people calling the skill gap "unhealthy", but why? Skill gaps exist because some people choose to put time into improving their skills, some people don't. This creates a skill gap. What is wrong with this? Why does it need to be fixed? How is it unhealthy? Share your thoughts.

Because the skill gap is so large that they end up having to create content tailored for a very small audience (vHM trials in particular). That's content that only a couple hundred or a thousand players can complete. (Last I heard vRGHM was only completed by 600 characters since it was released, so not even necessarily 600 different accounts).

All this wouldn't be a problem if end-game PVE was something the community deeply cared about (an example, race to world first in WoW). The issue is that almost no one gives a flying [snip] about it. So it's probably not just an isolated design decision, I bet someone around Zos started looking at developmental costs and returns.

[edited for profanity bypass]

fred4

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Content development isn't cheap.

For content to be successful, it needs to draw in enough people that are interested in it to pay for itself and generate profit.

Content downgrades over time, either by power creep or by explicit nerfs to old content coinciding with the release of new. ZOS has reused and recycled everything pretty successfully, IMO. See Craglorn, IC, normal mode dungeons, One Tamriel early in the game's history as an example of downgrading and recycling. See something like vMA as an example of power creep. Stormproof / Flawless Conqueror is way easier than it used to be. Still not mega accessible, but for that we have normal mode with almost as good rewards. There's got to remain something for people to sink their teeth into.

For me the biggest problem has been fear of failure and, thus, when the difficulty of something isn't clearly signposted or is obscure. World bosses vary in difficulty. Dungeons and trials do. However, due to the nature of the MMO, NPCs with the same appearance and mechanics can be wet noodles or menacing monsters. The variety of builds and player choices also impacts how difficult something is for them. You can get really stuck on things that would be easily solved with a different build or class. In the early days, the blue portals in IC fell into that category for me. I saw magplars doing them easily. I only had a DK. Two harvesters were too much for me. If those spawned, I would always die. Yet I kept blaming myself. How did those templars do it and how could I not? It did not occur to me to blame my class choice, which showed my ignorance about MMOs and the combat system in general. With the knowledge I have today, I would go in with a Brawler build and probably beat a magplar at their own game. I was a stam DK.

I don't know how to solve accessibility in so far as classes and knowledge, but I don't think robbing the RPG of what makes it a role-playing game is the solution. We're on a trajectory where everything will eventually play the same. Playstyles, such as the traditional shield-based, burst-stacking magsorc in PvP - an archetype that had thus far resisted destruction - are disappearing. Ultimately, if a player wants to experience all content, maybe it should have been pointed out to them to not "play as you want", but make additional characters, as high-end players do. Maybe that should be made easier, e.g. you don't have to level one, but you share the number of skill points, and so on, account wide. Or, if someones insists on playing one character, to accept their role and their limitations. At the end of the day, we're talking about vet modes here. You do get to see the stories and the environments on normal mode anyway.

There is one way accessibility could be improved for sure, which has already been stated in another thread. Colour schemes that make it very hard to see mechanics, such as being infected in Marleslook, make the game hard to play. Mechanics have to be obvious. I had some mental blocks with both the spider level and the screaming Argonian level of vMA, when that was new. To be one shot by the scream of the Argonian, but not necessarily by his hits and stomps, that was a serious mental block to me. It didn't make sense. No, I had not seen the precedents elsewhere in the game, nor do those excuse nonsensical art design choices. Art design that makes sense, is rooted in reality, and clearly telegraphs mechanics is important. Maw of Lorkaj is still pretty inscrutable to me. You shouldn't have to read a diatribe on Alcast to participate in content, not that those are always complete either. There are mechanics in Coral Aerie I still don't understand and that I have not found covered by any content creator, such as when health bars go blue. It's those "[snip], what do I do, what do I do?" moments that really get to me. It's not my DPS or the skill gap. It's the fact that content creators don't cover every mechanic, because their DPS is so high, they don't even discover them. If mechanics were obvious this wouldn't be a problem. A good example of obvious mechanics are the water waves in the final Shipwright's Regret fight. I normally hate mechanics that knock me about, but I love that fight, because it makes sense and it's not too overbearing. Tempest Island has a similar mechanic, but little whirlwinds on the ground make far less sense. It's an easy fight nowadays, but the overbearing CC and less obvious mechanics, such as the boss rushing the furthest away player for what used to be a one shot, has caught out many groups in the past.

[edited for profanity bypass]

LordDragonMara

jm42 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

It seems like these changes were made to make Veteran Mode more accessible to people, but what's wrong with them doing Normal Mode instead of Vet?

normal modes are extremely easy, you can just faceroll on your keyboards. even casual players can. and vet is extremelu hard for them. and that is the gap ZOS have to shorten.
and I agree with you

Then making normal modes more challenging and better preparing for veteran is the right go, isn't it ? Or even add one more difficulty ?

LordDragonMara

halucin0g3n wrote: »

LordDragonMara wrote: »

As far as the damage goes i really don't care if it's 60, 70 or 100k. I think i was clear about that. My problem is with removing the skill from the game, as they are literally trying to do that.

There's still going to be a skill gap. But instead of 90k DPS difference between you and a beginner, it will be probably 40-50k. You'd still have to be able to master weaving and all that non-sense to be able to reach your DPS level.

That's what they're trying to to do. Keep beginners more relevant to top tier players.
Not to mention, how many people complained that the overland is too easy? Bringing down the maximum DPS fixes that as well.

Well we are already goes through that. Lowering the Skill ceiling is just bad. You cannot justify it by any means. Managing your Dots with the new changes will take absolutely no skill involve. They literally remove that from the game. On top of that combat became terribly boring.
LA weaving is getting killed once again, because some players don't care to improve. How is that a good thing, try to explain it to me ?
And again, this is not some super hard mechanics that takes years to be good with it.
Now people with a perfect weaving will have super low advantage over the ones that docent, and even lower to the ones that does weaving, but are mashing or just not at that level. Mastering it to perfection is just a waste of time, cause the return is that low, it's just not worth it.

The damage you are talking about, aka the suggested 40-50k. it's not going to come from your skill as a player, it will come because you have better gear and slotted the right ability, unlike people that just don't care about any of that. And this changes won't change that, they will just tons of people mad.

And again i'm not a VET Elitist player some people suggest, i'm more of a new player to be fair. Yet this completely ruin my journey in the game, and until they decide to revert all of this nonsenses, i'm done with this game.
Just going to follow if they are actually have some sense and understand how bad for the lifespan of the game this is.

And i absolutely fail to see how that will bring new players into the game, and will help with the population, but we will see in a 1-2 months time when the graphs for players are up.
Anyway anyone with some basic business knowledge knows that your main goal first should be to keep your regular customer happy and in the game, cause this is a lot cheaper and safe method, compare to losing this people and try to bring new players.
Every company should try to improve their product and try to get as much new clients as possible, this is obvious, but not for the expense of your current and loyal ones.

And as far as the Overland complaining, stop with this nonsenses. People never wanted this. They wanted difficulty to be introduce, like normal, vet and hard and just up the rewards. People wanted this, not what they offer us.

BTW and if there isn't a significant gap between a total new player and a top one, there is no sense to stay in the game and grind on it. The gap should be big, as it in every single game. There isn't a sport out there or a game out there, where a complete beginner enter game/sport and he should be close to the level of pros/top athletes. This idea is just terrible.

agelonestar

So, is there a skill gap: yep.

Is it currently too big: yep.

Is the solution being rolled out the best one: you’re going to have to make your own mind up, but probably nope!

Ragnarok0130

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

LordDragonMara wrote: »

It has everything to do. Because Weaving and managing your Dots is not so hard thing to do, comparing to aiming for example, in order to get a good mouse control, it takes a lot of time, years and a lot of hours.

In ESO everything comes naturally, if you actually want to improve and get to that level, instead of just complaining that is too hard.

Here's the thing - I'm just here to play a game for enjoyment. All this "you gotta study hard, perfect your <blah blah blah>, put in the hours, etc"... it's crazy to me. Even back when I was a highschool kid, with a million hours a week to play, I didn't care that hard. As a non-competitive 50-something, it's not remotely in my mind..

Then you don’t want to play an MMO, you want to play Skyrim….ESO is an MMO and not Skyrim. MMOs have expectations that if you want to do anything outside of the main solo quest you must learn about and make a build, learn about your class and skills, likely join a guild to do harder content. MMOs require homework. It’s fine if you don’t want to do that homework and just quest, explore, and decorate your house. This part onward isn’t directed at you but to the players in general. If you make the aforementioned choice to only quest and decorate and not improve, and it is a choice, you don’t get to demand that all content should be open to you when you refuse to do the time and effort commitment to do the content you are locked out of.

I see a lot of self proclaimed casuals here in the forums who refuse to get better, usually followed by some justification on why they can’t, demanding access to content they can’t possibly complete. It doesn’t matter if ZoS hands them gold perfected raid gear, they still won’t do any better until they learn their class and rotations with practice and effort. I like to heal trials and admit my DPS is trash so I’ve decided to do some dummy humping to improve my DPS so I have additional opportunities to raid because it’s what I like most in the game.

People are using the sports analogy a lot in this thread. If you don’t put in the effort in sports to get better you ride the bench just like you do in MMOs if you don’t put in the effort to make a raid team. We get out of a game what we put in effort wise. So everything in the game including high DPS numbers are available to everyone given they put in the time. It’s up to each player to do the cost benefit analysis on if the return in the effort is worth it. ZoS shouldn’t nerf systems drastically to artificially close the gap, especially when the people they claim they are helping are the ones hit hardest.

xgoku1

They said reduce the delta, not remove the delta. So instead of DPS range from 30k floor to 140k ceiling, they want to make it like 50k floor to 100k ceiling.

I'm guessing what Gilliam is saying is that the current DPS delta is way too big which is causing issues in designing content like DPS checks for Vet HM stuff. This update is more about addressing the powercreep increasing the ceiling over the past few years.

LordDragonMara

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

LordDragonMara wrote: »

It has everything to do. Because Weaving and managing your Dots is not so hard thing to do, comparing to aiming for example, in order to get a good mouse control, it takes a lot of time, years and a lot of hours.

In ESO everything comes naturally, if you actually want to improve and get to that level, instead of just complaining that is too hard.

Here's the thing - I'm just here to play a game for enjoyment. All this "you gotta study hard, perfect your <blah blah blah>, put in the hours, etc"... it's crazy to me. Even back when I was a highschool kid, with a million hours a week to play, I didn't care that hard. As a non-competitive 50-something, it's not remotely in my mind..

Then you don’t want to play an MMO, you want to play Skyrim….ESO is an MMO and not Skyrim. MMOs have expectations that if you want to do anything outside of the main solo quest you must learn about and make a build, learn about your class and skills, likely join a guild to do harder content. MMOs require homework. It’s fine if you don’t want to do that homework and just quest, explore, and decorate your house. This part onward isn’t directed at you but to the players in general. If you make the aforementioned choice to only quest and decorate and not improve, and it is a choice, you don’t get to demand that all content should be open to you when you refuse to do the time and effort commitment to do the content you are locked out of.

I see a lot of self proclaimed casuals here in the forums who refuse to get better, usually followed by some justification on why they can’t, demanding access to content they can’t possibly complete. It doesn’t matter if ZoS hands them gold perfected raid gear, they still won’t do any better until they learn their class and rotations with practice and effort. I like to heal trials and admit my DPS is trash so I’ve decided to do some dummy humping to improve my DPS so I have additional opportunities to raid because it’s what I like most in the game.

People are using the sports analogy a lot in this thread. If you don’t put in the effort in sports to get better you ride the bench just like you do in MMOs if you don’t put in the effort to make a raid team. We get out of a game what we put in effort wise. So everything in the game including high DPS numbers are available to everyone given they put in the time. It’s up to each player to do the cost benefit analysis on if the return in the effort is worth it. ZoS shouldn’t nerf systems drastically to artificially close the gap, especially when the people they claim they are helping are the ones hit hardest.

I agree completely with what you said. But i think Kiralyn made it clear that he didn't demand anything, and it's not bother as other players being more skilled and so. He has a perfect point that he just want to play relaxed and have fun.
But your points stand completely for people that are like him, but want to do everything, but yet don't want to fully engage with the game and refuse to learn fundamentals mechanics.
It's like skipping all the basics in Martial arts for example, and want to sparr with the best and when they beat my *** to start complaining that they should not be allowed to do that. This is what makes me so frustrated.

As well as some people saying clicking 5 buttons in 10 seconds make their fingers in pain, this is just laughable.
Just because you can't fit into that window, you should not want skill removed, because you are slow, injured or unable to do that. You can still play the game fully. Nothing in this game require to be fully optimal.

And i agree that some people are trying to make MMORPG genre and demands to be super, super easy, zero challenge, zero progress, everything comes easy, and no dedication or work involved. And then no one would wants to touch that game, and this is how you kill games in reality.

Anyway your post is exactly my thoughts and i couldn't write it better.

It's a sad state they are destroying games going that way, and then there is no turning back.

Major_Soulless

Stamicka wrote: »

For a few years now, the devs have been putting a lot of effort into shrinking the skill gap, but why? What is wrong with a skill gap? Let's talk a bit about Gilliam's reasoning behind recent changes.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Weaving

Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can. While this is partially unavoidable and an important part of what makes the mastery of ESO or any activity utilizing a similar system particularly satisfying, we want to do what we can to shorten that delta. The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve. To this end, we’ve started to look at the impact that one of the most common and important forms of weaving has in ESO: Light and Heavy Attack weaving.

So here it seems like the reason for trying to shrink the skill gap is to make it easier to design content for a wider audience. Is this not the purpose of Normal, Veteran, and Veteran Hard Mode difficulties? The same piece of content can be played by players of different skill levels with these optional difficulty modes. It seems like these changes were made to make Veteran Mode more accessible to people, but what's wrong with them doing Normal Mode instead of Vet? If you want Vet content to be less of a challenge, then why have a Vet Mode at all? At the end of the day, it is up to the player to choose to improve and work towards more challenging content. If someone does not want to progress to more challenging content, it doesn't need to be handed to them. This is the reality of any game. So the "make vet content more accessible" reason doesn't really make sense.

I see many people calling the skill gap "unhealthy", but why? Skill gaps exist because some people choose to put time into improving their skills, some people don't. This creates a skill gap. What is wrong with this? Why does it need to be fixed? How is it unhealthy? Share your thoughts.

Maybe give normal content purple gear perhaps?

But seriously there needs to be a new tier inserted difficulty wise as some people are in that middle gap where they find normal content to easy but can't do vet content so they get bored.

Personally I think this is the group Zos are trying to cater for but they are doing it in the wrong way as they drag the elite players down they also are dragging down the middle tier as well.

Ragnarok0130

Major_Soulless wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

For a few years now, the devs have been putting a lot of effort into shrinking the skill gap, but why? What is wrong with a skill gap? Let's talk a bit about Gilliam's reasoning behind recent changes.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Weaving

Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can. While this is partially unavoidable and an important part of what makes the mastery of ESO or any activity utilizing a similar system particularly satisfying, we want to do what we can to shorten that delta. The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve. To this end, we’ve started to look at the impact that one of the most common and important forms of weaving has in ESO: Light and Heavy Attack weaving.

So here it seems like the reason for trying to shrink the skill gap is to make it easier to design content for a wider audience. Is this not the purpose of Normal, Veteran, and Veteran Hard Mode difficulties? The same piece of content can be played by players of different skill levels with these optional difficulty modes. It seems like these changes were made to make Veteran Mode more accessible to people, but what's wrong with them doing Normal Mode instead of Vet? If you want Vet content to be less of a challenge, then why have a Vet Mode at all? At the end of the day, it is up to the player to choose to improve and work towards more challenging content. If someone does not want to progress to more challenging content, it doesn't need to be handed to them. This is the reality of any game. So the "make vet content more accessible" reason doesn't really make sense.

I see many people calling the skill gap "unhealthy", but why? Skill gaps exist because some people choose to put time into improving their skills, some people don't. This creates a skill gap. What is wrong with this? Why does it need to be fixed? How is it unhealthy? Share your thoughts.

Maybe give normal content purple gear perhaps?

But seriously there needs to be a new tier inserted difficulty wise as some people are in that middle gap where they find normal content to easy but can't do vet content so they get bored.

Personally I think this is the group Zos are trying to cater for but they are doing it in the wrong way as they drag the elite players down they also are dragging down the middle tier as well.

Gear really isn’t the issue here, it’s player knowledge and skill with their chosen class. End game players can wear crafted gear and still be monsters because they know their class and skills. The number of times I’ve healed random normal dungeons and see a level 20 players slaughtering everything like a trial pro tells me he’s an end game player with knowledge of his new alt toon effectively using his skills. Conversely you can give a CP3600 normie who never learned his class the best gear in the game and the guy who knows his class could duel him naked and win or out DPS him in a PVE dungeon because he’s effective with his class and skills. ZoS can never patch expertise into the game, it’s on each player to excel on his or her own.

Cryptor

wide skill gap only impacts people who have no skill, like me.

BXR_Lonestar

Stamicka wrote: »

For a few years now, the devs have been putting a lot of effort into shrinking the skill gap, but why? What is wrong with a skill gap? Let's talk a bit about Gilliam's reasoning behind recent changes.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Weaving

Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can. While this is partially unavoidable and an important part of what makes the mastery of ESO or any activity utilizing a similar system particularly satisfying, we want to do what we can to shorten that delta. The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve. To this end, we’ve started to look at the impact that one of the most common and important forms of weaving has in ESO: Light and Heavy Attack weaving.

So here it seems like the reason for trying to shrink the skill gap is to make it easier to design content for a wider audience. Is this not the purpose of Normal, Veteran, and Veteran Hard Mode difficulties? The same piece of content can be played by players of different skill levels with these optional difficulty modes. It seems like these changes were made to make Veteran Mode more accessible to people, but what's wrong with them doing Normal Mode instead of Vet? If you want Vet content to be less of a challenge, then why have a Vet Mode at all? At the end of the day, it is up to the player to choose to improve and work towards more challenging content. If someone does not want to progress to more challenging content, it doesn't need to be handed to them. This is the reality of any game. So the "make vet content more accessible" reason doesn't really make sense.

I see many people calling the skill gap "unhealthy", but why? Skill gaps exist because some people choose to put time into improving their skills, some people don't. This creates a skill gap. What is wrong with this? Why does it need to be fixed? How is it unhealthy? Share your thoughts.

Nothing is wrong with skillgap, but nobody should "have" to spend hours in front of a dummy in order to "qualify" to get access to content that is in the game. They keep coming up with these sets that boosts the DPS through the ceiling for the top 5-10% of players, meanwhile the players in the middle are getting left further and further behind. Something DOES need to be done to bring the floor DPS up and make doing good DPS easier to make the game more accessible. Otherwise players will just get frustrated and walk away.

Part of this is the function of powercreep. We want sets that make us feel more powerful, but when we do, it makes it harder and harder for them to design content that is fun, engaging, but also challenging for the upper end players and that is still completable for lower end players. Part of this is why I find it ironic as to why they are nerfing the oakensoul ring. This was a perfect example of something that brought up the floor DPS quite a bit without increasing DPS at the top end of things. In that sense, it was perfect.

LordDragonMara

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Nothing is wrong with skillgap, but nobody should "have" to spend hours in front of a dummy in order to "qualify" to get access to content that is in the game. They keep coming up with these sets that boosts the DPS through the ceiling for the top 5-10% of players, meanwhile the players in the middle are getting left further and further behind. Something DOES need to be done to bring the floor DPS up and make doing good DPS easier to make the game more accessible. Otherwise players will just get frustrated and walk away.

Part of this is the function of powercreep. We want sets that make us feel more powerful, but when we do, it makes it harder and harder for them to design content that is fun, engaging, but also challenging for the upper end players and that is still completable for lower end players. Part of this is why I find it ironic as to why they are nerfing the oakensoul ring. This was a perfect example of something that brought up the floor DPS quite a bit without increasing DPS at the top end of things. In that sense, it was perfect.

So you pretty much want to be at that "end", but you don't want to practice to get there .... I also want to be top programmer/developer, but don't want to spend hours over hours in coding, and all the needed stuffs.
But it's up to me right, to do the work, right ?

And we should divide the gear from skills, cause this is 2 completely different things.

Some people just want from the start in the game to do all.
And again you don't need to be even close to optimal levels, neither to have perfect weaving to do the vets and end game stuffs. Game is already too easy on most fronts.
But it's a mmorpg and you certainly should know your character, your rotation and what abilities is needed for x or y thing.
Same as what build/gear to do. But this is more of a knowledge skill, then what we are talking about.


The way i see it currently, they are punishing top players for being top players, for actually spend time in the game, play the game, understand the game, practice the game, learn the game and find a way how to become top players.
And they reward players that just refuse to learn and refuse to get good at the game.

It's like my boss to come and say, listen i'm lowering your salary, cause you are the best in the company and write and do stuffs fastest. Your colleagues just can't keep your pace, so we are going to lower your wages .... How that sounds ? Because this is exactly what is their doing.

xgoku1

LordDragonMara wrote: »

The way i see it currently, they are punishing top players for being top players, for actually spend time in the game, play the game, understand the game, practice the game, learn the game and find a way how to become top players.
And they reward players that just refuse to learn and refuse to get good at the game.

Endgame PvE community has been asking for DPS nerfs for a while though. A 30-40% nerf bringing the ceiling to around 100k is what people have been asking ZOS since every DLC adds more and more OP powercreep sets. You still need to be a "top player" to hit these numbers.

Thorgunn9

Because some people are VERY sweaty and literary LIVE in ESO. Spend hours upon hours upon hours a day 7 days a week playing this game.
BUT "MOST" people have lives and do not want to give there Life to eso. Plus it's just pure unhealthy lets just be honest here.
I agree with Zos trying to lower the ceiling and raise the floor to make the game and content "more" accessible to the "VAST MAJORITY OF PLAYERS" If you want to spend 10,000 hours in ESO fine but realize the content will be made for the 95% of people who can not and will not literary devote there lives to this game. I commend ZOS for being mindful of the majority of players that have real lives. School, kids, work etc. and don't cater to the sweaty elites that seem to have the most problem with the changes. This is suppose to be a game NOT a way of life.

Thorgunn9

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Announcement from an extremely popular discord. They are shuttering their doors and hosting no more raids. Account wide achievements drove away a lot of experienced raiders, this one is just too much.

Well if you have so few people able to complete the content then Zos is doing exactly the right thing by bringing the ceiling down.

Holycannoli

One of the bean counter suits high up may be telling them to attract more players, and some metric somewhere is telling them that the complexity of the game's combat is bad for new player retention.

That's my guess.

What they're doing though is gutting combat, and damage as a result. That will frustrate new players even more, when they realize they can't do all that endgame content because their skills just don't do enough damage.

Jaraal

Thorgunn9 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Announcement from an extremely popular discord. They are shuttering their doors and hosting no more raids. Account wide achievements drove away a lot of experienced raiders, this one is just too much.

Well if you have so few people able to complete the content then Zos is doing exactly the right thing by bringing the ceiling down.

Except even less people will be able to do the top content with their damage nerfed 20-30%. And ZOS has never made established content easier.

peacenote

Thorgunn9 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Announcement from an extremely popular discord. They are shuttering their doors and hosting no more raids. Account wide achievements drove away a lot of experienced raiders, this one is just too much.

Well if you have so few people able to complete the content then Zos is doing exactly the right thing by bringing the ceiling down.

The issue is the ceiling is not being brought down if the content isn't adjusted. The changes actually just WIDEN the gap between the extra skilled and everyone else.

All I've wanted for years now is to get into and prog VCR + 3. I love that trial; it is so much fun to me. But like many other groups my group suffers from roster prog. Two steps forward, three steps back every time someone drops.

Everyone who is blaming the high DPS of the best of the best groups is (I'm sorry to be blunt) just wrong. It's the fact that much of the newer content has such little margin of error that "the best of the best" is required to get close to even trying it. Those elite folks should get their credit through the leaderboards and faster completion times and maybe special achievements... not by simply being able to get through it.

The only way combat adjustments FOR PLAYERS could address this is by buffing support or making it easier to do more damage. This is not what we are getting in U35.

ZOS seemed to be on kind of a good path with the newer encounters where there's a hard mode for every boss and THAT'S where you bang your head against the wall. I'm not ashamed to say that, at the moment, my dungeon group is stuck trying to complete Shipwright's Regret Hard Modes. That's ok; we want that kind of a challenge and it's making us better players. But folks can see and enjoy the content without the hard modes in two easier modes - regular veteran and normal. That's great! But U35 REDUCING the DPS of my dungeon team is not going to make those SR Hard Modes more accessible to my team. The ceiling is still the ceiling... what it takes to beat those encounters.

The people who can do the crazy monster parses aren't hurting anyone. It's the content that you can't beat without having ten of those people in your group that's the issue.

Stamicka

Pepegrillos wrote: »

Because the skill gap is so large that they end up having to create content tailored for a very small audience (vHM trials in particular). That's content that only a couple hundred or a thousand players can complete. (Last I heard vRGHM was only completed by 600 characters since it was released, so not even necessarily 600 different accounts).

All this wouldn't be a problem if end-game PVE was something the community deeply cared about (an example, race to world first in WoW). The issue is that almost no one gives a flying [snip] about it. So it's probably not just an isolated design decision, I bet someone around Zos started looking at developmental costs and returns.

peacenote wrote: »

Everyone who is blaming the high DPS of the best of the best groups is (I'm sorry to be blunt) just wrong. It's the fact that much of the newer content has such little margin of error that "the best of the best" is required to get close to even trying it. Those elite folks should get their credit through the leaderboards and faster completion times and maybe special achievements... not by simply being able to get through it.

I want to address these types of arguments since most posts are a variant of these. Early ESO discredits both of these types of arguments. In 2015 and 2016, ESO even overland had a bit of difficulty. Things like vet Maelstrom, City of Ash 2, and Vet Craglorn trials were extraordinarily difficult in the earlier years of the game. When Maw of Lorkhaj came out, there were very few people that could complete it at all. So ESO's endgame was even more exclusive and don't forget that the game was younger at this point, so people weren't as good or knowledgeable as they were today. Despite all of this, there were more high-end raiding groups and progression groups. The end game community was thriving despite how exclusive being a good player was at the time.

So why are things different now? The game is not nearly as difficult and end game is not nearly as exclusive as it was in 2015-2017, yet end game is actually shrinking not growing. Anyone care to explain?

[edited to remove quote]

JustAGoodPlayer

A lot if players here can but hate do LA rotation perfectly, so skill gap now already is in - like and do not like.

I like icecream, how much skill gap is between us ? )))

lordspyder

Jaraal wrote: »

Accessibility and skills gap are nice talking points, but anyone can see that the U35 changes are focused on curtailing power creep…. ie: higher than envisioned damage numbers that trivialize some content. Everything else is just a diversion.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

One gaping problem with the skill gap is that content itself has a massive gap. Between normal and vet, the difference is vast. Content itself needs to be adjusted if there is ever to be any hope of a more healthy gap.

The easiest way to raise the floor without lowering the ceiling would be to add a third mode. Veteran, Normal, and Beginning, Training, or whatever you want to call it. Let new or low skilled players learn to work together in easier versions of dungeons, trials, and arenas. And of course scale the rewards down accordingly. And add training tutorials with performance recaps, similar to death recaps, with tips on how to improve based on their battle choices during the training.

I don't think this is the problem. The problem comes in bridging the gap between normal and vet.

BlueRaven

Stamicka wrote: »

Pepegrillos wrote: »

Because the skill gap is so large that they end up having to create content tailored for a very small audience (vHM trials in particular). That's content that only a couple hundred or a thousand players can complete. (Last I heard vRGHM was only completed by 600 characters since it was released, so not even necessarily 600 different accounts).

All this wouldn't be a problem if end-game PVE was something the community deeply cared about (an example, race to world first in WoW). The issue is that almost no one gives a flying [snip] about it. So it's probably not just an isolated design decision, I bet someone around Zos started looking at developmental costs and returns.

peacenote wrote: »

Everyone who is blaming the high DPS of the best of the best groups is (I'm sorry to be blunt) just wrong. It's the fact that much of the newer content has such little margin of error that "the best of the best" is required to get close to even trying it. Those elite folks should get their credit through the leaderboards and faster completion times and maybe special achievements... not by simply being able to get through it.

I want to address these types of arguments since most posts are a variant of these. Early ESO discredits both of these types of arguments. In 2015 and 2016, ESO even overland had a bit of difficulty. Things like vet Maelstrom, City of Ash 2, and Vet Craglorn trials were extraordinarily difficult in the earlier years of the game. When Maw of Lorkhaj came out, there were very few people that could complete it at all. So ESO's endgame was even more exclusive and don't forget that the game was younger at this point, so people weren't as good or knowledgeable as they were today. Despite all of this, there were more high-end raiding groups and progression groups. The end game community was thriving despite how exclusive being a good player was at the time.

So why are things different now? The game is not nearly as difficult and end game is not nearly as exclusive as it was in 2015-2017, yet end game is actually shrinking not growing. Anyone care to explain?

Right. But it did not stay that way. Now those dungeons/trial are hard, but not impossible for all but a small percentage of the player base. They want many players to use that content, not just the cutting edge players.

They could have buffed low end dps this patch, but that would have made the higher end dps even more ludicrous.

They could have just nerfed the dungeons and trials, but then the cutting edge groups would have just gotten bored with the content.

So they are (trying to) target nerf the high end. (Like normal their aim is off.)

The main problem I see is that they should have readjusted trials and dungeons for what would be the new normal dps for the high end raiders. Maybe that is something that is coming, they might be waiting until the nerfs are a bit more concrete. But a lot of this controversy could have been side stepped with a simple statement that pve content will also be nerfed to compensate.

[edited to remove quote]

Parasaurolophus

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Announcement from an extremely popular discord. They are shuttering their doors and hosting no more raids. Account wide achievements drove away a lot of experienced raiders, this one is just too much.

With AwA everything is fine for the most part. Please don't drag this in here.

Snow_White

The skill gap issue I’m seeing is between vet and HM.

DPS is currently high enough that these last two trials can be LOL’d through with unoptimized pugs, but their HMs are so far out there that most have given up (vRG HM) or won’t even bother attempting (vDSR HM).

IMO, challenging content should be challenging and hard content should be hard; but, I think we’re currently missing the mark and the gap from 80k to 120k+ isn’t helping.

Best I can figure out they’re resetting our DPS to where it was a couple years ago before all the OP sets were released, and that seemed to be a health point IMO.

Didgerion

There is nothing wrong with the skill gap.

The skill gap goes away by itself by simply.....drum rolls...........playing.

Imagine a musical instruments shop selling you a guitar with the skill gap removed...any idea how that will look like?

FantasticFreddie

Thorgunn9 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Announcement from an extremely popular discord. They are shuttering their doors and hosting no more raids. Account wide achievements drove away a lot of experienced raiders, this one is just too much.

Well if you have so few people able to complete the content then Zos is doing exactly the right thing by bringing the ceiling down.

How does that even make sense? Bring the ceiling down so even fewer are able to clear the content zos CREATED for higher damage than they now want us to be able to do?

Keep in mind: these patch notes hold NO NERFS TO THE CONTENT DIFFICULTY.

Dawnblade

Nothing is wrong with a skill gap, and players who are willing and able to put in the time and effort to perform at the very highest levels should be encouraged and rewarded.

However, IMO the gap in ESO is too wide at this point, which leads to issues where new content is tuned to the very top players, leaving the much larger group of 'middle' to average players unable to complete and left to run older / easier content.

ESO needs a narrower power gap between players and much more middle-difficulty content (either directly through additional difficulty levels or some sort of adjustments over time to older content as newer content is released) to maintain a healthy population, especially as it is the average and middle-skilled players that foot the majority of the bill for development.

Every MMO that has tried to be hardcore has failed - the top 1% may help with guides and generating interest in a game, but that only goes so far.

If a game cannot attract and retain a large number of players - most of whom will be of average skill level - it is bound to fail.

Of course, the changes on the PTS on their own do not appear to be achieving either narrowing the gap nor making more content accessible for the average player.