So... What's Wrong With a Skill Gap?

Ragnarok0130

BlueRaven wrote: »

I just want to add another thing about builds in general. Many builds I see require weapons or gear sets from already difficult vet content. It's not enough to say that op builds exist, but if the common player cannot get the gear FOR those builds, those builds might as well not exist for the majority of those players.

It becomes a variation of the old saying they have about job experience:

You can't do the content without the build, and you can't do the build without doing the content.

I'm seeing a lot of rationalization on why people can't do harder content instead of being realistic on why they certainly can if they set their mind to it. Maybe that type of commitment doesn't appeal to the most of the casual audience but it doesn't mean that it's not attainable if they wish to put in the effort. That difference in mind set is huge.

Most popular builds online have starter, intermediat and veteran gear builds listed so players that are just starting out can craft solid over land starter sets to run dungeons to get dungeons sets, and then adjust their build and gear as they get better gear in dungeons to later run trials and get trial sets and then later to continue their journey into vet. Nobody's stating they have to have Kjalnar/Bahsei/Kinras at the beginning of their PVE group journey to use a build. Personally I still don't have arena weapons for my healer build and I'm a healer main...thank you ZoS RNG.

Personal story I was a SWTOR progression raid healer for years. Back in early ESO when we only had one build at a time I tried running dungeons as a healer in my hybrid set up and had very sub par performance and the mechanics were unfamiliar too both of which were disheartening. Since I was already maining SWTOR I shelved ESO group content for several years despite always wanting to experience it. When I got back into ESO late last year I was determined to experience all of the group content that I wanted to run but missed out on. To accomplish this I researched actual builds, farmed gear sets by myself by first crafting overland sets for my builds, then running PUG dungeons getting dungeons sets, and finally pugging myself out for normal trials. I didn't think I had to do it all from the beginning of my resolution to do group content and progressed on my own by the crawl/walk/run method by doing research, volunteering to fill groups in zone chat PUGs, and doing group finders. I eventually decided to start clearing vHM dungeons (once again via PUGs and I always watched a video on the vet mechanics before queuing for one) and met some great people who eventually asked me to join guilds. I also got guild invites by PUGing myself for normal trials in Craglorn then I joined ESOU's discord and met more people where I raid on a more consistent basis and have cleared several vet HM trials. These are all things that any player can do if they set their mind to do the effort and homework. I'd rather have high expectations of the normal player that they can attain anything in the game if they set their mind to it rather than think they are incapable of doing so and lower the bar handing everything to them.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For vet trials it may not be demand (more on that later) it might just be that Zos is worried that the raw numbers of people doing them are too low. In other words, there might not be enough demand. It's not like even if you make a trial, the different difficulty versions of it can be created for free. There is a financial cost for that content, and maybe they feel that difficult content is not appealing to enough customers to justify that cost.

If this were indeed ZOS's reasoning, then they would be increasing damage so that more people would be able to complete vet trials. Instead, they are nerfing damage 20-40%, depending on class.

Why would they want even fewer people utilizing their most labor intensive content? They have never lowered the difficulty of any encounters. So what's the reasoning then?

Zos’s stated goal was to nerf the top end but leave the lower end alone. Even the title of this thread is about defending the size of that power gap that zos claimed they want to lessen.

Yes, they are going about it badly, but the philosophy behind the changes was made clear. It was to that philosophy that I was referring to, the “why” behind these changes.

Only problem is that the damage nerfs will hurt the lower end players more than it will the top end. Top players will find the holes in the new system and figure out how to maximize available damage. Floor players will only notice that they can complete less content, and at a much slower rate.

prof_doom

ChunkyCat wrote: »

They probably have data showing tens of thousands of players never even set foot in vet trials.

And yet they've built an entire patch on PTS around nerfing the damage of the "top end".

BlueRaven

Jaraal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

For vet trials it may not be demand (more on that later) it might just be that Zos is worried that the raw numbers of people doing them are too low. In other words, there might not be enough demand. It's not like even if you make a trial, the different difficulty versions of it can be created for free. There is a financial cost for that content, and maybe they feel that difficult content is not appealing to enough customers to justify that cost.

If this were indeed ZOS's reasoning, then they would be increasing damage so that more people would be able to complete vet trials. Instead, they are nerfing damage 20-40%, depending on class.

Why would they want even fewer people utilizing their most labor intensive content? They have never lowered the difficulty of any encounters. So what's the reasoning then?

Zos’s stated goal was to nerf the top end but leave the lower end alone. Even the title of this thread is about defending the size of that power gap that zos claimed they want to lessen.

Yes, they are going about it badly, but the philosophy behind the changes was made clear. It was to that philosophy that I was referring to, the “why” behind these changes.

Only problem is that the damage nerfs will hurt the lower end players more than it will the top end. Top players will find the holes in the new system and figure out how to maximize available damage. Floor players will only notice that they can complete less content, and at a much slower rate.

Yup. I agree. Like I said many times, they are going about it badly.

sarbonn

I just worry that stuff like this is going to make me even more of a struggling character than I already am. I've been playing for years and I watch tons of content designed to make me better but there are still those guys that sail right by me taking down half the dungeon while I struggle to finish off one guy. Last night, there was some uber dude in front of me slaughtering mobs by one shotting them and not even slowing down. When they make these changes, I doubt guys like that will even notice but those numbers will definitely nerf me.

Jaraal

prof_doom wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

They probably have data showing tens of thousands of players never even set foot in vet trials.

And yet they've built an entire patch on PTS around nerfing the damage of the "top end".

Because that's where the threat to their "development reputation" lies. It's embarrassing having players one shot your content that you thought would be challenging. And this is a perfect example:

sarbonn wrote: »

I just worry that stuff like this is going to make me even more of a struggling character than I already am. I've been playing for years and I watch tons of content designed to make me better but there are still those guys that sail right by me taking down half the dungeon while I struggle to finish off one guy. Last night, there was some uber dude in front of me slaughtering mobs by one shotting them and not even slowing down. When they make these changes, I doubt guys like that will even notice but those numbers will definitely nerf me.

The real problem is not that players are getting better, it's that every DLC ZOS is forced to release new sets to sell content. And as the hundreds of sets start piling up over the years, people have more and more choices to find that synergistic set "sweet spot." The current one shot meta is built on stacking sets that buff heavy and light attacks (combined with class and weapon skills and passives) to create massive burst damage. So, rather than control the number of sets that can create unforeseen combinations, they are trying to nerf LA/HA, and threw in a theoretical DOT buff that turns out to actually be a damage nerf.

fred4

x

BlueRaven wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

They are not different content. You can get all the top gear in normal mode. Who gave you a different impression?

Monster helms, perfected weapons, etc

I do not accept perfected weapons as a valid reason that you must run veteran trials and arenas. Perfected weapons are "nice to have", but that's it.

I do accept monster helms, but two things:

1. Some base game monster helms, such as Nerieneth, are really competitive and not that hard to get.
2. You need to be carried only once and, with trading, you have a good chance to get the whole set.

I mean, there are obviously more. A mythic can replace a monster helm or you may buy the helm from the Cyro vendor, but let's not open a can of worms as to how hard or easy that makes things.

fred4

BlueRaven wrote: »

I just want to add another thing about builds in general. Many builds I see require weapons or gear sets from already difficult vet content. It's not enough to say that op builds exist, but if the common player cannot get the gear FOR those builds, those builds might as well not exist for the majority of those players.

It becomes a variation of the old saying they have about job experience:

You can't do the content without the build, and you can't do the build without doing the content.

Yeah, but if you go to Alcast he lists 3 gear setups for each of his builds, right? The fact that some builds list exotic gear doesn't mean there aren't builds without such gear that get you past that catch-22.

I do not specialise in trials, but would it help if I demonstrated a powerful solo dungeon build with only crafted and easily bought gear (it's cheaper to buy jewelry than craft)? I'll solo Crypt of Hearts and get Nerieneth with it, how would that be?

fred4

fred4 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I just want to add another thing about builds in general. Many builds I see require weapons or gear sets from already difficult vet content. It's not enough to say that op builds exist, but if the common player cannot get the gear FOR those builds, those builds might as well not exist for the majority of those players.

It becomes a variation of the old saying they have about job experience:

You can't do the content without the build, and you can't do the build without doing the content.

Yeah, but if you go to Alcast he lists 3 gear setups for each of his builds, right? The fact that some builds list exotic gear doesn't mean there aren't builds without such gear that get you past that catch-22.

I do not specialise in trials, but would it help if I demonstrated a powerful solo dungeon build with only crafted and easily bought gear (it's cheaper to buy jewelry than craft)? I'll solo Crypt of Hearts and get Nerieneth with it, how would that be?

As promised, here is my sorc Brawler tank farming a Nerien'eth monster helm solo. To make it relevant to this thread, I did it at CP450 with blue / purple crafted gear and cheap purple Vengeance Leech jewelry. No gold enchants, no Hakeijo enchants and no jewelry transmutation. The only luxury: I stuck to my usual gold food as we're building into health regen.

OK, well, I have a confession to make. I didn't think of what I was letting myself in for with that particular dungeon. It has two bosses that CC you and a teammate normally has to break you free. I cheated on those fights by switching to an Oakensoul variation of the build so I would have Precognition ready when needed. As I was unprepared, I just switched to my Oakensoul meta gear setup, albeit still at CP450.

Nonetheless I hope this video illustrates what the game allows you to do. This is 4-man veteran base game content and I'm soloing it at CP450. I'm not suggesting that's a good way to farm. It is tedious with that build, especially at that CP and with no Master weapon. However the build makes for an excellent PUG tank. How do you feel about instant dungeon queues and guaranteed success? Would you call that oh, I don't know, "accessibility" maybe? Slot a taunt and with help from a PUG, you don't need Oakensoul / Precognition. You will carry the group.

This is not a very complicated build. Yes, I'm weaving, but my rotation is pretty garbage. Even though you see me dodging the boss AOE in the final fight, I actually got hit by it in unshown footage and I still had 40% health left. It's a forgiving build.

I think this goes to show how, up to about this level, just simply build knowledge goes a long way. Yes, this is a very strong build. You can't just use any build and this particular one is probably weaker on other classes. Yes, I'm probably using my PvP / Imperial City instincts to bash healer NPCs and lead mobs in circles while I heal myself. On the other hand this is soloing a vet dungeon, not a very hard one, but still. That's way stronger than what you really need. You're going in with 4 people after all.

Note YouTube is still processing. Quality should imrove to 1080p in an hour or two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM6OrV7YBUo

fred4

I can see how you might make the opposite argument, based on the video. Builds don't matter. CP don't matter. It's skill and experience that got me through that. OK, I'm preemptively flattered. There's probably some truth to that. However this is a tank. When vMA came out, compromises like these were not possible. If you didn't have the damage and situational awareness, you failed a DPS check very quickly and you died. Niowadays, with power creep, vMA is more forgiving and this tank is something else again. It will do vMA and vVateshran, certainly in it's fully geared form. Stage 5 has a DPS race that may be a problem with the low level gear, but I think that's it.

At any rate. There is a market for builds like these, right? Some YouTubers, Hack always comes to mind, serve that market. That said, I see YouTubers cater to themes and role-playing ideas. My build does not. It is not play as you want. It's pretty carefully tuned and you must use Brawler (the back bar matters less). I'm not sure whether "play as you want" isn't a noose that strangles everyone at this point, the devs and the players who buy into it. As a theorycrafter I simply go with what works.