Dark Cloak

ccfeeling

Shadow Cloak
Dark Cloak (morph): This morph now heals you for 17-20% of your missing Health per tick, rather than 9.2% of your Max Health per tick.

Sorry , console here , need some help .

Can someone link me the tool tips how much a typical NB tank can heal at 100% , 50% , 20% ?

Main NB tank and I don't wanna play like DK ... thank you !

Rikakiah

Wait, what? I missed this change. This looks horrible. They literally JUST changed that heal to be a stronger burst...

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Welcome to the heal that never actually fully heals you now, because Nightblades just want to be copy pasted Vampire skills since Vampires do anything better than Nightblades.

Sincerely,
any overhealing proc set.

Jeezye

Actually I find this to be a pretty strong buff, not sure how it plays out though.

It basically puts dark cloak to be cast reactively instead of preventively. Casting at 100% health for overhead will be bad, but recovering from 50% health will be a lot stronger.

K like it since the class already has hots running

ccfeeling

Base on PTS description

45k hp NB tank , ignore CP and buffs

Before patch
Cast any time : 4140 hp / sec

After patch
Cast at 80 percent : 1800 hp / sec
Cast at 50 percent : 4500 hp / sec
Cast at 20 percent : 7200 hp / sec

So seems like the break even point at about 50% , I usually starts self healing at 80 percent , for safety and Shadow Barrier passive .

With minor and major buffs , starts healing under 50% seems pretty strong .

High risk high return , tbh not my cup of tea ... gonna wait PTS feedback ...

Iron_Blurr

Tanks need burst heals not weak hots that get stronger the closer you are to death. With the high burst damage that tanks get hit with these day if you are at 50% health, you're probably dying from the next hit you take.

Look at it this way. Heals that are based on Missing health mean that to use the skill optimally, you need to be at an unsafe health level much more often. This just makes the tanking experience much more risky and dangerous with very little payoff. I'm all for risk but where is the reward here?

I'm now supposed to wait until I'm at 50% health or less to get more healing out of new dark cloak than the old dark cloak? Oh and as soon as it does heal me it immediately gets weaker and weaker per tick. That means I never fully recover, I just hover around 75% of my max health since I continue taking damage while waiting for the HoT to heal me.

This is a very bad change and will only hurt nightblade tanks.

Rikakiah

Jeezye wrote: »

Actually I find this to be a pretty strong buff, not sure how it plays out though.

It basically puts dark cloak to be cast reactively instead of preventively. Casting at 100% health for overhead will be bad, but recovering from 50% health will be a lot stronger.

K like it since the class already has hots running

But, it's also our source for Minor Protection as well as one of the best options to proc Major Resolve through the passive, so you'll be casting it frequently already. In its current state, the high heal at high health can take stress off the healer and help you from getting low to begin with. In the pts form, you're just casting a relatively expensive Minor Protection spell with virtually no "damage buffer" until you get to the danger zone.

My NB currently has 45k health. Cloak ticks for 5k 6 times (and can crit). I'd rather have pretty consistent 30k worth of healing than just a significant heal when I'm about to die. If I drop that low, I'm probably going to be hit with a massive burst from my healer (unless it's all going south anyway), but stronger, steady heals earlier on my part can mitigate the incoming damage so I don't drop that low in the first place, especially since I'll be casting that spell basically every time it's up already anyway.

code65536

Reposting what I wrote in the main feedback thread, for people interested in this specific skill and don't want to wade through that giant pile of comments...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7651371/#Comment_7651371

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The Nightblade Dark Cloak change is a mixed bag, from a PvE tank perspective.

The heal is a buff below around 50% health, and it's a nerf above that. On first glance that seems like it should be fine, as the heal gets stronger when you need it more. But in practice, after tanking the new dungeons on my NB tank main, I'm not that thrilled with this change.

Pros:

1) It's nice in an "oh crap, I just took an unblocked light attack for 35K" scenario.


Cons:

1) This makes the Dark Cloak really bad for Trauma (heal absorption) mechanics (and there is yet another one of those in these new dungeons). I'd like to break through and get rid of that heal absorption before my health bar has taken a massive hit. Waiting for low health to get rid of the trauma is pretty horrible.

2) I like to be able to keep myself topped off so that I'm at or near full when the next bursty attack happens. In that regard, one of the best things about the old Dark Cloak was that it worked well to counter DoTs.



So, for the sake of illustrating this problem, consider this example (with numbers rounded a bit to make the math easier):
- Boss applies a 4K/s DoT
- Tank has 40K health. Old Cloak heals for 10% of max health, New Cloak heals for 20% of missing health.

Old Cloak: take 4K damage every second, heal for 4K every second, and health remains topped off at all times

Now, with the new Cloak:
- Tick 1: take 4K damage, heal for 0.8K (36.8K health)
- Tick 2: take 4K damage, heal for 1.4K (34.2K health)
- Tick 3: take 4K damage, heal for 1.9K (32.2K health)

Eventually, this plateaus, and in this scenario, the asymptote is 24K health. So a heal that used to be able keep a tank topped-off at 100% health will now reach a new equilibrium at 60%.

This was a noticeable problem. I'm used to keeping myself topped off through mild ambient damage, so that I'm ready to take the next dangerous burst of damage at full health. And now I'm struggling to keep myself topped off through that mild ambient damage.

The heal-for-missing is one of the worst things about the DK tank heal, and it's frustrating to see the main weakness of GDB creep into another class.

TL;DR: If you're going to go with a heal-for-missing model, you really need to add a minimum heal. Otherwise it's worthless for trauma and it's worthless for keeping oneself topped off at full in anticipation of the next burst.

ccfeeling

Good point code65536 , I hope Dev would listen NBs feedback

Suligost

This is so bad overall. Makes you weaker at PvE and PvP. DK heal IS BETTER as it INSTA HEAL AT LOW HEALTH. This is just DK heal but so far worse as it is per tick, just to make you stay longer at execute phase (we all enjoy getting hit for 8K per attack) xD

ccfeeling

New update
Dark Cloak (morph): This morph now heals for 11-14% of your missing health, down from 17-20%.

Nerf one more time.

Destroy NB and drive us heal like DK.

If you guys do it, please apply on all classes, not just NB!

Stx

Wow they nerfed it again. Didn't they buff it like last year? Why would they nerf it now? I've been using dark cloak in pvp for a very long time but now I definitely won't be.

code65536

Nobody asked for any of the changes to Dark Cloak. Was there someone complaining about Dark Cloak overperforming? I feel like I'm the only one who even plays a NB tank these days.

So, it's a HoT, which is meant to be used preemptively. Yet, now it heals off of missing health, so it's meant to be used reactively? Make up your mind, ZOS, because what you have here is completely nonsensical.

Just revert the changes. Dark Cloak is fine as-is on Live.

But I guess that's the theme for this whole PTS, huh? Breaking stuff unnecessarily by making changes that nobody wanted. So I guess it fits the bill.

xDeusEJRx

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody asked for any of the changes to Dark Cloak. Was there someone complaining about Dark Cloak overperforming? I feel like I'm the only one who even plays a NB tank these days.

So, it's a HoT, which is meant to be used preemptively. Yet, now it heals off of missing health, so it's meant to be used reactively? Make up your mind, ZOS, because what you have here is completely nonsensical.

Just revert the changes. Dark Cloak is fine as-is on Live.

But I guess that's the theme for this whole PTS, huh? Breaking stuff unnecessarily by making changes that nobody wanted. So I guess it fits the bill.

Indeed, ZoS decided nightblade got off too lightly and they needed to anger more nightblade mains so they introduced unnecessary nerfs

Mazio

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody asked for any of the changes to Dark Cloak. Was there someone complaining about Dark Cloak overperforming? I feel like I'm the only one who even plays a NB tank these days.

So, it's a HoT, which is meant to be used preemptively. Yet, now it heals off of missing health, so it's meant to be used reactively? Make up your mind, ZOS, because what you have here is completely nonsensical.

Just revert the changes. Dark Cloak is fine as-is on Live.

But I guess that's the theme for this whole PTS, huh? Breaking stuff unnecessarily by making changes that nobody wanted. So I guess it fits the bill.

Couldn't agree more. It's definitely the theme for this patch. Nuke any skill that can be used creatively, even if it isn't overpowered.

Jazraena

Or just any skill at random, though I'm sure the ten people in the game that still used Daedric Mines will make do somehow.

StarOfElyon

Just when I was getting confident in tanking vet HM stuff.

Dagobertfuk

Great ZOS,

First they say that they are done with major combat changes and again they change the combat system like never before. Now they nerf dark cloak to the ground for no reason. It wasnt over performing at alI. Nobody complained about. And today they even nerf it more wdf hahahaha. They lost their mind, incase there still was something left to lose.

Just lost my last hope to still play my brawler NB in pvp when the new patch gets released.

Constantly nerfing my playstle since 2k18, without noticeable buffs.
Since 2k18 i had to come up with new setups, because ZOS nerfed something to its uselessness.
Would be great to change my setup because something got buffed. No not with ZOS.

This is again a proof of ZOS isnt even enough to be an Ashes of Creations Waitingroom. I curse the day Gilliamtherogue got a job at ZOS.

jecks33

I really don't understand where the combat team is going with these changes. Nb tank is good as it is on live, there is literally no reason to change anything on it.


@ZOS_Gilliam can we have some thorough explanation please?

Iron_Blurr

Let's do some math.. You're in pvp as a NB. You have 25k health.
You take damage and now you are at half health which is 12.5k
Your dark cloak heals for 14% of what you're missing. So your first tick heals for 1,750 right? WRONG! You have battle spirit active so it's half that.
Here's your biggest tick of 875 health. And as soon as it ticks once your health moves up so it heals for less and less. How much lower can it even get?? It's already under 1k healing per second.
Let's say you are at 75% of your health.
That's 18,750 health. You are missing 6,250.
So what's 14% of 6,250? Well that's 875 health. But wait cut that in half for battle spirit. Yay that's a fat 437.5 health per second and it gets weaker every second!

Let's say you are a tank with 45k health. You take a big hit from a trial boss and you are now at half health. You are missing 22.5k health. What is 14% of that? 3,150 health. But the heal gets weaker and weaker the higher your health gets.
At that rate of 3k healing per second (which is more than it would be since the heal gets weaker and weaker every second) it would take you approximately 8 seconds to heal back up to full health. 22.5/3=7.5 and it's actually longer than that since the heal gets weaker over time and you continue to take damage from the boss you are trying to tank.
It will take forever to heal up enough to survive another big hit. If you get back to back heavy attacks you will die before to you can even heal yourself back up to full.

p4l4mu7

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand where the combat team is going with these changes. Nb tank is good as it is on live, there is literally no reason to change anything on it.


@ZOS_Gilliam can we have some thorough explanation please?

NB tank has great kit with bunch of healing over time but it definitely needs a burst heal based on missing health, on content where you get hit by major healing debuff your healings are nowhere near enough to save you, Bahsei for example you'll take 10k+4k damage per second while you can only heal for about 9k per second even if you spam healthy offering along with dark cloak. So we need a healing based on missing health but turning Dark Cloak into that is a terrible idea, you just can't make a burst heal skill out of something healing you over time it is just dumb. Instead they should have turned one of the morphs of Malevolent Offering into a self cast healing based on missing health since one morph is way superior to other and nobody uses it.

Imnotsurewho

(reposting from another Dark Cloak discussion)

Ok, I speak ZOS's language here. I have data from a PvP perspective.

In a no-CP environment (on PTS I just dumped my CP as that's the best I could do), I have basically the same setup (PTS I had Mirage in place of Killer's Blade so in theory tankier) and I went to a Cyrodiil resource and grabbed all the guards and let them hit on me for a bit. Here's how it went:

Live



PTS week 3




Anecdotally, I survived the live resource and died on the PTS one.

I'd say Dark Cloak on PTS is missing that bit that tops you up and even prevents your health from getting into execute range for other players to pile on as they see you're the vulnerable target going down. I would've died even quicker if there were players here using executes as I was in execute range far more often on the PTS than live.

ZOS if you want clips of both, just reach out and I can send them to you.

ccfeeling

ZOS, if you think PVE , the majority doesnt important, go ahead the update

Weisstag

At this point I feel like ZoS is being just openly EVIL

It's like a villain plotting to hurt you in various ways for no other reason than their enjoyment of your pain and suffering. Stop this you psychos... what's wrong with you zos?

Dagobertfuk

Im talking from pvp perspective, with halfed heal

Dark Cloak how it is on actual PTS will be a Skill nobody will use ever again. A nerf for no *** reason. Like it was stronger than other Heals. Vigor was way stronger. And since vigor gets major resolve its even less worth it, to even think about using it as a Nightblade.

My Nightblade in Cyrodiil on live servers with 40k HP gets 2,6k hps with dark cloak. After the first Dark Cloak Nerf in pts week one or two, i had to be 50% Player HP to get the heal value from live servers. Right now on pts after the second nerf, i have to be at 10% player HP to get almost old value of 2520 hps. I did the math with the pts maximum of 14%. Even Vampire Drain, a skill nobody with more than 2 braincells is using in PvP to heal up, heals more than actual PTS Dark Cloak.

Any reason why anyone should use PTS Dark Cloak instead of another healing ability other than for style? I can't think of any. Mainly because every other healing ability heals me more by a frightening margin, no matter how much HP I have, except at 10% where Dark Cloak get it old healing value.
Image when i dont have 40k HP. Hard to imagine but it gets even worse rofl.

But a skill that only really works, when i am already with both legs in the grave, in execute range and eating 400% extra dmg from enemy execute's, is a total abilityslot waste.

When zos worked on dark cloak their minds were elsewhere.

Rikakiah

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Im talking from pvp perspective, with halfed heal

Dark Cloak how it is on actual PTS will be a Skill nobody will use ever again. A nerf for no *** reason. Like it was stronger than other Heals. Vigor was way stronger. And since vigor gets major resolve its even less worth it, to even think about using it as a Nightblade.

Minor point, but Dark Cloak gives Major Resolve as well. Granted, it's through a passive for 6 seconds--I don't know how long it lasts via Vigor. However, that duration is increased by heavy armor, so significantly longer on a tank.

But, that doesn't really negate any of your points, and really only strengthens them. On dps, I'm guessing resolve lasts longer via vigor, which is part of your point--a stronger heal and longer resolve means vigor is hands down over Cloak. As a pve tank, you'll get longer resolve (longer than the coverage of Minor Protection from the spell, actually), but half the cast is useless because the heal is so weak until you're almost dead. It's a split personality spell. You want to cast it in your rotation to keep protection and resolve up, but the heal component is only a reserve "Oh crap" heal that you don't want to use the mag to cast until you're in the red...

edward_frigidhands

Rikakiah wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Im talking from pvp perspective, with halfed heal

Dark Cloak how it is on actual PTS will be a Skill nobody will use ever again. A nerf for no *** reason. Like it was stronger than other Heals. Vigor was way stronger. And since vigor gets major resolve its even less worth it, to even think about using it as a Nightblade.

Minor point, but Dark Cloak gives Major Resolve as well. Granted, it's through a passive for 6 seconds--I don't know how long it lasts via Vigor. However, that duration is increased by heavy armor, so significantly longer on a tank.

But, that doesn't really negate any of your points, and really only strengthens them. On dps, I'm guessing resolve lasts longer via vigor, which is part of your point--a stronger heal and longer resolve means vigor is hands down over Cloak. As a pve tank, you'll get longer resolve (longer than the coverage of Minor Protection from the spell, actually), but half the cast is useless because the heal is so weak until you're almost dead. It's a split personality spell. You want to cast it in your rotation to keep protection and resolve up, but the heal component is only a reserve "Oh crap" heal that you don't want to use the mag to cast until you're in the red...

The current version of Cloak would be a waste of space on your bar once update 35 hits.

It's difficult to justify a HoT that heals for so little unless you are close to death where it doesn't matter how much it heals for.

Dagobertfuk

Rikakiah wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Im talking from pvp perspective, with halfed heal

Dark Cloak how it is on actual PTS will be a Skill nobody will use ever again. A nerf for no *** reason. Like it was stronger than other Heals. Vigor was way stronger. And since vigor gets major resolve its even less worth it, to even think about using it as a Nightblade.

Minor point, but Dark Cloak gives Major Resolve as well. Granted, it's through a passive for 6 seconds--I don't know how long it lasts via Vigor. However, that duration is increased by heavy armor, so significantly longer on a tank.

But, that doesn't really negate any of your points, and really only strengthens them. On dps, I'm guessing resolve lasts longer via vigor, which is part of your point--a stronger heal and longer resolve means vigor is hands down over Cloak. As a pve tank, you'll get longer resolve (longer than the coverage of Minor Protection from the spell, actually), but half the cast is useless because the heal is so weak until you're almost dead. It's a split personality spell. You want to cast it in your rotation to keep protection and resolve up, but the heal component is only a reserve "Oh crap" heal that you don't want to use the mag to cast until you're in the red...

Major Resolve from Vigor lasts for 20 seconds.

Foxtrot39

Rikakiah wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Im talking from pvp perspective, with halfed heal

Dark Cloak how it is on actual PTS will be a Skill nobody will use ever again. A nerf for no *** reason. Like it was stronger than other Heals. Vigor was way stronger. And since vigor gets major resolve its even less worth it, to even think about using it as a Nightblade.

Minor point, but Dark Cloak gives Major Resolve as well. Granted, it's through a passive for 6 seconds--I don't know how long it lasts via Vigor. However, that duration is increased by heavy armor, so significantly longer on a tank.

But, that doesn't really negate any of your points, and really only strengthens them. On dps, I'm guessing resolve lasts longer via vigor, which is part of your point--a stronger heal and longer resolve means vigor is hands down over Cloak. As a pve tank, you'll get longer resolve (longer than the coverage of Minor Protection from the spell, actually), but half the cast is useless because the heal is so weak until you're almost dead. It's a split personality spell. You want to cast it in your rotation to keep protection and resolve up, but the heal component is only a reserve "Oh crap" heal that you don't want to use the mag to cast until you're in the red...

Vigor is a straight upgrade to dark cloak if update goes live like this

Vigor will heal for a lot more and grant more uptime on major resolve than the NB passive does with full heavy armor

16s for passive + full heavy armor vs vigor's 20s per cast