Why combat changes are actually needed

Tornaad

Thank you @Deltia for this wonderful video that gives actual data to the rumor that has been rampant in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWXvBgrzt4A

So, while the damage might be lower, it will likely be easier maintain ... for at least some classes, thus, if they work out a few kinks and get the numbers polished up, then this might be a good thing.

Pevey

Zuboko wrote: »

Thank you @Deltia for this wonderful video that gives actual data to the rumor that has been rampant in this thread.

So, while the damage might be lower, it will likely be easier maintain ... for at least some classes, thus, if they work out a few kinks and get the numbers polished up, then this might be a good thing.

Those numbers don’t account for the changes to the trial dummy.

Pretty useless video, really. I understated content creators like Deltia wanting to get something out quickly due to all the interest, but if it’s rushed, it’s just misleading.

Tornaad

Pevey wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

Thank you @Deltia for this wonderful video that gives actual data to the rumor that has been rampant in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWXvBgrzt4A

So, while the damage might be lower, it will likely be easier maintain ... for at least some classes, thus, if they work out a few kinks and get the numbers polished up, then this might be a good thing.

Those number don’t account for the changes to the trial dummy.

Pretty useless video, really. I understated content creators like Deltia wanting to get something out quickly due to all the interest, but if it’s rushed, it’s just misleading.

While yes, this is still theory, because I have not actually tested it, the fact that his test (however rushed it may or may not have been) came to the same conclusion that I did from my analysis leaves me hopeful.
I fully recognize that there are going to be some kinks that need to be worked out, but I am hopeful.

ceiron

But if people cannot hit 50/60k now I don't see it changing much. Again its a knowledge void imo.

Kinras/bahsei/kilt was the worst thing to hit dps imo. Removed a lot of actual skill to now hit the 80k mark most trials guild wanted on ps eu.

People didn't understand the whys and hows and couldn't adapt. It was hit or death literally.

I think also the hoo haa about add-ons on pc and the tank dps switch off one shows that. Even nefas said it in his defence of the add-on. Dds do not know when and don't listen to calls. They hit a dps tunnel vision mode.

Vma was mentioned in this thread. You can hit 120k but theres still some knowledge and mechanics that need respect or it can be a mess if not a simple failure

I can see it maybe helping server lag.

But then theres a lot more that would also help. I read the timer increase was to reduce intensity of watching them. Not sure a universal timer on everything will help that though. Potentially will result in more micro management. Will await the outcome there.

Basic calculations which must affect the lag are too complicated.

Prime example for me is getting 10 iridium grains in the event boxes. Its one plating. So does that not mean extra calculations getting from the reward and then refining etc....

Just award a plating firstly? Unless i am missing something there.

Pevey

Zuboko wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

Thank you @Deltia for this wonderful video that gives actual data to the rumor that has been rampant in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWXvBgrzt4A

So, while the damage might be lower, it will likely be easier maintain ... for at least some classes, thus, if they work out a few kinks and get the numbers polished up, then this might be a good thing.

Those number don’t account for the changes to the trial dummy.

Pretty useless video, really. I understated content creators like Deltia wanting to get something out quickly due to all the interest, but if it’s rushed, it’s just misleading.

While yes, this is still theory, because I have not actually tested it, the fact that his test (however rushed it may or may not have been) came to the same conclusion that I did from my analysis leaves me hopeful.
I fully recognize that there are going to be some kinks that need to be worked out, but I am hopeful.

Seriously, try it out yourself. See how these changes feel to you.

Keep in mind that, IIRC, Deltia is a full time eso content creator now. He makes his living from it. He has a vested interest in things being not as bad as they seem/are, because it is his livelihood. Those of us saying that is is really bad, like I am finally over my addiction to this game level of bad, they have no reason to give you any spin.

Try it out yourself.

Zos will kill the game with these changes. It is not hyperbole, just the way it is.

Tornaad

Pevey wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

Thank you @Deltia for this wonderful video that gives actual data to the rumor that has been rampant in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWXvBgrzt4A

So, while the damage might be lower, it will likely be easier maintain ... for at least some classes, thus, if they work out a few kinks and get the numbers polished up, then this might be a good thing.

Those number don’t account for the changes to the trial dummy.

Pretty useless video, really. I understated content creators like Deltia wanting to get something out quickly due to all the interest, but if it’s rushed, it’s just misleading.

While yes, this is still theory, because I have not actually tested it, the fact that his test (however rushed it may or may not have been) came to the same conclusion that I did from my analysis leaves me hopeful.
I fully recognize that there are going to be some kinks that need to be worked out, but I am hopeful.

Seriously, try it out yourself. See how these changes feel to you.

Keep in mind that, IIRC, Deltia is a full time eso content creator now. He makes his living from it. He has a vested interest in things being not as bad as they seem/are, because it is his livelihood. Those of us saying that is is really bad, like I am finally over my addiction to this game level of bad, they have no reason to give you any spin.

Try it out yourself.

Zos will kill the game with these changes. It is not hyperbole, just the way it is.

I plan on it. I just likely won't have time until this weekend.

blktauna

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

I made a post about a week ago called APM AND SERVER PERFORMANCE. In it, I mentioned that I believe it has to do with helping the server. Look at the patch notes, and you'll see a pattern that is less button mashing, and things will now tick every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second.

People can go on forever talking about the gap between the upper, and lower skilled players, but that is not the true focus of the changes.

I wondered about this but they are deflecting so much I kind of back burnered that thought.

So i took my new necro into cyrodil to try some resource guards.... Well. It was horrific. Heavy attacks did 900 ish, boneyard didn't even register on some of the guards, let alone the light attacks. I'd finally got this build to the point of being able to take a rss by herself but there was nothing happening this test. Even the ulti barely scratched the guards.

I dread what I'll find on my other toons.

starkerealm

Zuboko wrote: »

While I have been getting more and more aggravated by how Zos has been handling forum moderation, I would like to think that they are not trying to deliberately deceive us.

Normally I'd agree, but, in this case, the choice of language is so misleading that I really struggle to see how it could have been accidental.

Necrotech_Master

the way i see these changes:

light/heavy dmg - fine

dot durations - good, makes easier rotations

dot tick rate - bad, 2 sec tick rate feels horrendously slow, prefer at least 1 sec tick rate

dot decreased dmg per tick - bad, just makes the dots feel even slower/weaker

overall: single target or "sticky" dots may still be ok especially for bosses that move around a lot, ground aoe DoTs already have problems, DKs get a slight advantage in that eruption can be made free cast so can move it around at will for no cost (and regain stam back at the same time)

the only DoT i see really benefitting from this change would be volley because of the maelstrom bow you would have more ticks at max bonus, currently the maelstrom bow hits max dmg on the 8th tick, you would have to use endless hail to get even 2 max bonus ticks

endless hail being a 30 sec dot, would mean 15 ticks at 1 per 2 seconds, half of which would be at max maelstrom proc bonus, which would work fine for a low mobility boss

but i would agree with most others that you are most definitely going to see a dps loss

(and to add, it took me almost a year to finish vMA the first time, i would make progress on a few arenas then get stuck, tweaked my build and then when it was performing better went back to try vMA again, rinse and repeated until i finally finished it)

Tornaad

I was about to reply to some of the recent comments, but then I realized that this thread has gotten way off topic.
It is not really supposed to be about an analysis of the new patch notes, but thoughts about why (or perhaps why not) combat needs to change. And as the only way I see to get it back on track would be to tread into an area that we already have a more productive thread for. So instead, I will just ask that this thread be closed and suggest that we send any feedback to the thread the devs already made.
PTS Update 35 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance Changes

sharpshooter2342

Zuboko wrote: »

NoSkiilz wrote: »

Maybe you’re just…. bad at the game? Like seriously vMA can be done at like 300cp. Learn to LA weave? My first clear was like 250cp lol

There is no question about it, I suck terribly. I am a lot better than I was. When I first started playing ESO, I had such a terrible build and knew so little about how the game worked, that I could not kill one of the story bosses in Coldharbour. I have gotten a lot better since then. I can solo most any base game word bosses. I can solo some normal dungeons.

Holycannoli wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

I noticed that.
I also noticed how many of those same skills ended up having a damage boost and coming from a place where I rarely keep up all of my dots as is, to be given those same dots (even with them ticking half as much) for twice as long, will make me a lot more prone to keep up my dots and thus get more benefit from them. ... in theory at least. For all I know right now, you could be 100% right. I will find out ... likely this weekend. I don't see myself having time to do that test until then.

They last twice as long and do an average of 33% less damage than before. Some of them do 40% less damage.

So less damage that takes twice as long to do, and in the meantime much more easily purged in PvP.

This is a bigger nerf to DoTs than some people are realizing. A good DoT will do a lot of damage in a short amount of time, a bad one less damage in a longer amount of time. The longer a DoT lasts the worse it is unless it has a secondary benefit like healing you with each tick. You don't want a DoT to last 20 seconds if all it does is damage, and you certainly don't want it to last 20 seconds when it used to last 10 seconds and did more damage for it's duration.

10k damage over 10 seconds or 6k damage over 20 seconds. Which do you prefer?

From what I understand from the note they released before hand (and that is what spawned my thoughts) this patch was supposed to reduce the DPS of the many dots but increase the increase the overall damage. If that is not what happened (and I couldn't say) then that may very well change things. However, assuming the stated goal is true, then it is possible that after they get some testing that we may see an adjustment to how things work, making it more in line with what they are shooting for.

The only way to get better at keeping up dots and LA weaving is to practice in a test dummy. Don't worry about the dps numbers it's more about finding a rhythm and practicing over and over. We also have timers for our bars to help with keeping dots up. If these changes go live you will likely never complete VMA. These changes hurt everyone. There's no way they can bring down top DPS without directly hurting those at the bottom. If anything they should buff dots to do more damage and just let top tier do what they do. They balance the whole game around professional gamers and don't understand how much of the player base is actually just casual. I do end game stuff like trifectas and this will most definitely make it more likely for me to not do content with less experienced players. It really is horrible to have to tank a boss in easy content like VFG and it takes the dps 30 minutes to kill. My regular group clears VFG in less than 10 minutes. It doesn't take a lot of time to look into a good PvE build and rotation.