Why combat changes are actually needed

Tornaad

I have been thinking about the general idea of adjusting how the combat works in ESO and I finally have assembled my thoughts.
My Background

I got introduced to the Elder Scrolls in 2002 with the release of Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, and quickly got lost in the world of Tamriel. I have been playing Elder Scrolls games almost exclusively since before Skyrim came out (about 15 years). I have tried a few different games in that time, but none have sucked me in as much as the Elder Scrolls games.

I started playing ESO in August of 2016 and have very much enjoyed the game during that time. If I have the right build, I can just barely solo Fungal Grotto, but I cannot yet finish Vetran Maelstrom Arena. That means that with more than a 1,000 hours onto just one character (and I have 6) I have not managed to break through into the upper echelon of ESO.

My Thoughts
I don't know what I think about the up and coming changes. I have not read the patch notes, and have not tried the PTS server yet, but I can see the need for a change. I am opening to how these changes are, but if someone who has literally put thousands of hours into this game and has played it almost exclusively over 6 years cannot break into the upper echelon of content, then there is definitely a need. I look forward to seeing how this change works.

From the little I know, I suspect that I will have an easier time doing the content I want to try.

Riptide

I hope that turns out to be true for you, I’d like to see folks succeed

I will say this about vMA. Between prep work, creating a toon for the purpose, gearing, studying, trial and error and hundreds upon hundreds of deaths - I spent twice as many hours beating vMA the first time as I did obtaining the platinum trophy for Elden Ring. That took me 120 hours.

vMA was about all I did in ESO for a couple of months.

And it stands as one of my proudest achievements in all of gaming, going back to 300 baud.

I hope that you succeed, and that when you do it feels the same way - rather than an emptier version of it

I will say the second trip through was comparatively easy, it really is all about making the mechanics muscle memory. Good luck!

Tornaad

Riptide wrote: »

I hope that turns out to be true for you, I’d like to see folks succeed

I will say this about vMA. Between prep work, creating a toon for the purpose, gearing, studying, trial and error and hundreds upon hundreds of deaths - I spent twice as many hours beating vMA the first time as I did obtaining the platinum trophy for Elden Ring. That took me 120 hours.

vMA was about all I did in ESO for a couple of months.

And it stands as one of my proudest achievements in all of gaming, going back to 300 baud.

I hope that you succeed, and that when you do it feels the same way - rather than an emptier version of it

I will say the second trip through was comparatively easy, it really is all about making the mechanics muscle memory. Good luck!

I don't know how many times I have tried vMA. If I had to guess it would be about 20. I probably try it every few months just to see if I have gotten good enough to where I could see a possibility.

Riptide

Honestly, even when I sat down to play it in earnest I had trouble - with every stage. And I had been playing since the alpha, done trials, etc.

If you go in there with the expectation that one day you’ll show up and be good enough, strong enough etc that day may prove elusive to you.

The only thing that worked for most of us was fighting it, over and over and over till you know exactly when and where things spawn, what to immediately focus, where to be standing, etc. That was especially true at about stage 5 onward. And absolutely necessary on the frost, poison and final stages.

From what I’ve seen it has always been that vMA makes you a strong player, not that it is limited to strong players.

The one quality you must have is to not be denied. Perseverance is no exaggeration faaaaaaar more important than dps. I was parsing 32k at the time.

Tornaad

Riptide wrote: »

Honestly, even when I sat down to play it in earnest I had trouble - with every stage. And I had been playing since the alpha, done trials, etc.

If you go in there with the expectation that one day you’ll show up and be good enough, strong enough etc that day may prove elusive to you.

The only thing that worked for most of us was fighting it, over and over and over till you know exactly when and where things spawn, what to immediately focus, where to be standing, etc. That was especially true at about stage 5 onward. And absolutely necessary on the frost, poison and final stages.

From what I’ve seen it has always been that vMA makes you a strong player, not that it is limited to strong players.

The one quality you must have is to not be denied. Perseverance is no exaggeration faaaaaaar more important than dps. I was parsing 32k at the time.

By no means do I think that it should be made easy. It is supposed to be the pinnacle of single player combat. I expect it to take work. I have just come to realize that nothing else in the game (that I have experienced in significant enough quantity) even nMA prepares you for vMA.

Riptide

Yeah, I found that too. nMA is a totally different ballgame.

And sorry to focus your thread on vMA, I just really overall loved it. Like bittersweet sort of love, because it was so, truly hard. I’m in my late 40s and though Ive been gaming since the start of it I am not one of those gifted sorts, by a good bit.

Several times at the final boss I got so close I was absolutely shaking from adrenaline.

And when I finally did beat it I felt such joy that few things in 35 years of video games compares to.

It was so epic I can’t help but encourage others to tackle it, and believe. Best content in ESO in my opinion - but it is perhaps an acquired taste

FantasticFreddie

Zuboko wrote: »

I have been thinking about the general idea of adjusting how the combat works in ESO and I finally have assembled my thoughts.
My Background

I got introduced to the Elder Scrolls in 2002 with the release of Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, and quickly got lost in the world of Tamriel. I have been playing Elder Scrolls games almost exclusively since before Skyrim came out (about 15 years). I have tried a few different games in that time, but none have sucked me in as much as the Elder Scrolls games.

I started playing ESO in August of 2016 and have very much enjoyed the game during that time. If I have the right build, I can just barely solo Fungal Grotto, but I cannot yet finish Vetran Maelstrom Arena. That means that with more than a 1,000 hours onto just one character (and I have 6) I have not managed to break through into the upper echelon of ESO.

My Thoughts
I don't know what I think about the up and coming changes. I have not read the patch notes, and have not tried the PTS server yet, but I can see the need for a change. I am opening to how these changes are, but if someone who has literally put thousands of hours into this game and has played it almost exclusively over 6 years cannot break into the upper echelon of content, then there is definitely a need. I look forward to seeing how this change works.

From the little I know, I suspect that I will have an easier time doing the content I want to try.

They are nerfing damage, so I wouldn't count on it.

Destai

I support something being done about the ever-increasing ceiling of DPS. I'm a console player and I find the combination of light attack weaving and animation cancelling to be really hard to sustain. Whether it's fatigue, ping issues, and other input bugs, I just don't find value in having such an unnatural system be the norm. Conversely, I see where people value it and how changing it has to be done delicately.

My biggest concern is that nerfing damage of anything will impact the wrong group - the casuals - who are supposed to benefit the most from this. If anything I'd have expected something like an accessibility option of auto-attack or something.

As a console player, I can't provide anything other than my own qualitative feedback since PTS isn't a thing for us.

Tornaad

Destai wrote: »

I support something being done about the ever-increasing ceiling of DPS. I'm a console player and I find the combination of light attack weaving and animation cancelling to be really hard to sustain. Whether it's fatigue, ping issues, and other input bugs, I just don't find value in having such an unnatural system be the norm. Conversely, I see where people value it and how changing it has to be done delicately.

My biggest concern is that nerfing damage of anything will impact the wrong group - the casuals - who are supposed to benefit the most from this. If anything I'd have expected something like an accessibility option of auto-attack or something.

As a console player, I can't provide anything other than my own qualitative feedback since PTS isn't a thing for us.

I don't know if I have a problem with the idea of DPS increasing. I guess I don't see what the problem with it is.

Destai

Zuboko wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

I support something being done about the ever-increasing ceiling of DPS. I'm a console player and I find the combination of light attack weaving and animation cancelling to be really hard to sustain. Whether it's fatigue, ping issues, and other input bugs, I just don't find value in having such an unnatural system be the norm. Conversely, I see where people value it and how changing it has to be done delicately.

My biggest concern is that nerfing damage of anything will impact the wrong group - the casuals - who are supposed to benefit the most from this. If anything I'd have expected something like an accessibility option of auto-attack or something.

As a console player, I can't provide anything other than my own qualitative feedback since PTS isn't a thing for us.

I don't know if I have a problem with the idea of DPS increasing. I guess I don't see what the problem with it is.

The problem is designing content around high dps that many of the players can't reach. It does exclude people from content. It's fine if there's difficult content, but let that difficulty rest in the mechanics not a twitchy combat system that most players aren't full participating in.

I personally don't have to do veteran content, even has CP1400, but I can see where others might feel differently.

Tornaad

Destai wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

I support something being done about the ever-increasing ceiling of DPS. I'm a console player and I find the combination of light attack weaving and animation cancelling to be really hard to sustain. Whether it's fatigue, ping issues, and other input bugs, I just don't find value in having such an unnatural system be the norm. Conversely, I see where people value it and how changing it has to be done delicately.

My biggest concern is that nerfing damage of anything will impact the wrong group - the casuals - who are supposed to benefit the most from this. If anything I'd have expected something like an accessibility option of auto-attack or something.

As a console player, I can't provide anything other than my own qualitative feedback since PTS isn't a thing for us.

I don't know if I have a problem with the idea of DPS increasing. I guess I don't see what the problem with it is.

The problem is designing content around high dps that many of the players can't reach. It does exclude people from content. It's fine if there's difficult content, but let that difficulty rest in the mechanics not a twitchy combat system that most players aren't full participating in.

I personally don't have to do veteran content, even has CP1400, but I can see where others might feel differently.

I can see that.

Agenericname

Zuboko wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

I support something being done about the ever-increasing ceiling of DPS. I'm a console player and I find the combination of light attack weaving and animation cancelling to be really hard to sustain. Whether it's fatigue, ping issues, and other input bugs, I just don't find value in having such an unnatural system be the norm. Conversely, I see where people value it and how changing it has to be done delicately.

My biggest concern is that nerfing damage of anything will impact the wrong group - the casuals - who are supposed to benefit the most from this. If anything I'd have expected something like an accessibility option of auto-attack or something.

As a console player, I can't provide anything other than my own qualitative feedback since PTS isn't a thing for us.

I don't know if I have a problem with the idea of DPS increasing. I guess I don't see what the problem with it is.

The problem with DPS increasing is that a good portion of the content gets left behind and trivialized.

Im neither for nor against the changes with any significant measure of conviction. Damage is relative. If we all maxed at 50k damage, with a few exceptions, we would still clear content. We may have to do some (or more) mechanics, but I dont really see that as a bad thing to be honest. The exceptions would be something ZOS had to deal with.

When I did vMA it took a while. I remember reading Joy_Divisions guide. Hundreds of soul gems later I cleared it. It was a pretty incredible feeling.

When I did vVH for the first I went in blind and cleared it the same day. I enjoyed it, dont get me wrong, but it wasnt the same. I enjoyed them for entirely different reasons, but clearing vMA was far more memorable.

I think the bigger difference between the two experiences was 1. I had a much better grasp on the game in general in vVH. 2. The damage was higher. My damage was easily 2x higher in vVH.

Im not against nerfing the damage if its done wisely, but Im not convinced that this is the way. The gap between those that can clear vet content and those that struggle isnt completely filled by LAs.

I wish you the best of luck, but I doubt this change, on its own, will make the content more accessible for you. Keep at it though, youll get it.

Stamicka

Sorry, but this just isn't a good reason to change the combat. I personally think anyone can excel at ESO's combat, for some people it may take more getting used to than for others. This is just like everything in life. In school, some people do well without studying, some people study a lot only to do as well as someone who didn't study.

ESO has been out for over 7 years. ESO's combat is very different from other MMOs, but that's what attracts many players. People who don't like ESO's combat system may like the combat system of a different MMO. Those who do like the combat system will likely stick with ESO. Why would you drastically change fundamental aspects of the combat system years after building up a loyal playerbase? ZOS is trying to bring in different types of players, I get it, but its at the expense of the many veterans who love the combat system. This is the problem, ZOS will completely change the game for Veterans if they think they can get more new players. I don't think this is a good way to run a game.

Stamicka

Double post, sorry.

Tornaad

Stamicka wrote: »

Sorry, but this just isn't a good reason to change the combat. I personally think anyone can excel at ESO's combat, for some people it may take more getting used to than for others. This is just like everything in life. In school, some people do well without studying, some people study a lot only to do as well as someone who didn't study.

ESO has been out for over 7 years. ESO's combat is very different from other MMOs, but that's what attracts many players. People who don't like ESO's combat system may like the combat system of a different MMO. Those who do like the combat system will likely stick with ESO. Why would you drastically change fundamental aspects of the combat system years after building up a loyal playerbase? ZOS is trying to bring in different types of players, I get it, but its at the expense of the many veterans who love the combat system. This is the problem, ZOS will completely change the game for Veterans if they think they can get more new players. I don't think this is a good way to run a game.

Honestly, even though I have played this game for more than 6 years now, I don't think I am qualified to give much of a counter argument. ESO is the first ever MMO I have ever played, and while, yes, it is not like other MMO's it is also different enough from the core Elder Scrolls games that there is a steep learning curve. And that learning curve, which in many ways I am still figuring out, is why I feel something needs adjusted.
I could not tell you if I think this is the right move or not, but I do think that something needs done.

Tornaad

Zuboko wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Sorry, but this just isn't a good reason to change the combat. I personally think anyone can excel at ESO's combat, for some people it may take more getting used to than for others. This is just like everything in life. In school, some people do well without studying, some people study a lot only to do as well as someone who didn't study.

ESO has been out for over 7 years. ESO's combat is very different from other MMOs, but that's what attracts many players. People who don't like ESO's combat system may like the combat system of a different MMO. Those who do like the combat system will likely stick with ESO. Why would you drastically change fundamental aspects of the combat system years after building up a loyal playerbase? ZOS is trying to bring in different types of players, I get it, but its at the expense of the many veterans who love the combat system. This is the problem, ZOS will completely change the game for Veterans if they think they can get more new players. I don't think this is a good way to run a game.

Honestly, even though I have played this game for more than 6 years now, I don't think I am qualified to give much of a counter argument. ESO is the first ever MMO I have ever played, and while, yes, it is not like other MMO's it is also different enough from the core Elder Scrolls games that there is a steep learning curve. And that learning curve, which in many ways I am still figuring out, is why I feel something needs adjusted.
I could not tell you if I think this is the right move or not, but I do think that something needs done.

... then again, maybe the change that needs to happen is to my perspective, but to me that seems like it is asking for a lot from something that is supposed to be a game.

pklemming

TBH, if you are 1000 hours in and have been attempting to increase your damage and are unable to complete vMA, I am not sure you are a person who should be giving feedback on these changes. I am 50+ years old and have a chronic illness. So I am slow, old and definitely not the definition of an ideal raider.

I initially used builds by content creators, learned my skills, practiced on a dummy and still hit over 100k on a dummy. Unless there are physical issues, the damage cap/content level you are reaching should be higher.

The changes, as it is looking on PTS, will actually reduce your damage (it reduces everyone's damage). The one thing that was introduced to help newer players (those unable to bar swap or with a physical disability) has been nerfed heavily. I See no reason why you will be able to do more than before, there is literally nothing helping you increase your content completion in the patch.

Overall the notes, as they stand, are a big nerf to everyone and seem as though a lot were based..... yet again.... around balancing to PVP, because after all these years they have still not understood THIS DOES NOT WORK.

You generally just annoy both PVE and PVP people by catering for both crowds.

This may seem like a kneejerk reaction, but if these changes hit live in any form resembling those initially put on PTS, this will lose a lot of people, and we are already haemorrhaging people like mad.

pklemming

I would also personally like to thank the devs for changing the channel time of jabs again. It took me an age to get used to weaving at 1s from .92( because it apparently matched the animation of 1.55s better). Now it is at 800s, but my muscle memory will still say 1s....

kieso

Eh, MMO's change, that's the name of the game. You either change with them or not. 🤷‍♂️

I think people are making mountains out of mole hills.

pklemming

We can do rough numbers from notes, but will be on PTS tomorrow, to confirm, but just taking LA damage. A since my LA was doing on average 13.4k for me before. 2somethingK now.

How is this helping people, it is actively encouraging them to never ever learn weaving. A complete dumbing down of the game.

From initial tests, everyone loses dps. EVERYONE. This will not help lower end players one iota. Stuff they couldn't do before will be harder to do afterwards.

pklemming

Yeah, a lot of people are going the NOT route. Prog and trial groups are having issues being filled already, I don't see how this makes things better. Once you get below a certain number, than upper end trials, as we know it, will just stop, as people migrate to the likes of GW2 or FF.

Tornaad

kieso wrote: »

Eh, MMO's change, that's the name of the game. You either change with them or not. 🤷‍♂️

I think people are making mountains out of mole hills.

I can see that. In some ways, I think that is part of life.

Thecompton73

Sorry to tell you OP but none of the changes in the PTS patch notes provide any hope of the content being more accessible for you. Especially trying to finish VMA, the final stage of the last boss fight is a pretty big DPS race where you need to be moving a lot to avoid different damage sources. Having the DPS of DOTS nerfed so heavily is going to make that part of the fight way tougher to get through.

Tornaad

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Sorry to tell you OP but none of the changes in the PTS patch notes provide any hope of the content being more accessible for you. Especially trying to finish VMA, the final stage of the last boss fight is a pretty big DPS race where you need to be moving a lot to avoid different damage sources. Having the DPS of DOTS nerfed so heavily is going to make that part of the fight way tougher to get through.

When I wrote this, the PTS notes had not come out yet.
I read through the patch notes, and while I did see a number of nerfs, I also saw quite a few buffs. I am not enough of a numbers nerd to know off hand how it will play out, but I know I love the idea of longer timers and I think that alone will help me out a lot. I really don't know though, and won't until I try playing it.
One of the things I will likely do is try vMA on PTS and see how it feels. I would be very surprised if I passed it because even if the changes are beneficial, then I don't think I am anywhere near that level of being ready.

Pevey

Zuboko wrote: »

From the little I know, I suspect that I will have an easier time doing the content I want to try.

I’m really sorry, but Zos has given you the wrong impression. You can take a look at the changes on pts, and you can see that if they go live, you will be further than ever from completing things like vma. Those of us who are complaining about these changes are NOT just afraid of change. We are afraid of BAD change that nerfs everyone, especially those NOT in the most elite tier. These changes are bad for the game.

Try them out on PTS and decide for yourself. And then please provide feedback in the PTS section of the forum.

pklemming

Pevey wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

From the little I know, I suspect that I will have an easier time doing the content I want to try.

I’m really sorry, but Zos has given you the wrong impression. You can take a look at the changes on pts, and you can see that if they go live, you will be further than ever from completing things like vma. Those of us who are complaining about these changes are NOT just afraid of change. We are afraid of BAD change that nerfs everyone, especially those NOT in the most elite tier. These changes are bad for the game.

Try them out on PTS and decide for yourself. And then please provide feedback in the PTS section of the forum.

Actually, that is a good call. Those people unable to complete vma and think this will make a change, go head on over to PTS and run a VMA there. See how you do.

pklemming

Zuboko wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Sorry to tell you OP but none of the changes in the PTS patch notes provide any hope of the content being more accessible for you. Especially trying to finish VMA, the final stage of the last boss fight is a pretty big DPS race where you need to be moving a lot to avoid different damage sources. Having the DPS of DOTS nerfed so heavily is going to make that part of the fight way tougher to get through.

When I wrote this, the PTS notes had not come out yet.
I read through the patch notes, and while I did see a number of nerfs, I also saw quite a few buffs. I am not enough of a numbers nerd to know off hand how it will play out, but I know I love the idea of longer timers and I think that alone will help me out a lot. I really don't know though, and won't until I try playing it.
One of the things I will likely do is try vMA on PTS and see how it feels. I would be very surprised if I passed it because even if the changes are beneficial, then I don't think I am anywhere near that level of being ready.

It is bad. It is very bad. There is no light at the end of a tunnel. The whole tunnel is on fire and there is a train coming.

as an aside. vMA is a lot of learning, a little of which you can do on normal. Spawn points of mobs are the same on normal on vet, get used to where things spawn. Prepare to die a lot. I died A ALOT of times before my first clear.

If in doubt, look at some of the content creator builds for vMA and tutorials. Everything helps. That first clear you get is awesome, depsite all the deaths.

Pevey

Zuboko wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Sorry to tell you OP but none of the changes in the PTS patch notes provide any hope of the content being more accessible for you. Especially trying to finish VMA, the final stage of the last boss fight is a pretty big DPS race where you need to be moving a lot to avoid different damage sources. Having the DPS of DOTS nerfed so heavily is going to make that part of the fight way tougher to get through.

When I wrote this, the PTS notes had not come out yet.
I read through the patch notes, and while I did see a number of nerfs, I also saw quite a few buffs. I am not enough of a numbers nerd to know off hand how it will play out, but I know I love the idea of longer timers and I think that alone will help me out a lot. I really don't know though, and won't until I try playing it.
One of the things I will likely do is try vMA on PTS and see how it feels. I would be very surprised if I passed it because even if the changes are beneficial, then I don't think I am anywhere near that level of being ready.

Be careful thinking something is a buff. Basically, nothing got buffed. When you see certain skills that got an increase in damage per tick, that is usually over about half as many ticks as previously. And these are all now every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second. So dps got nerfed. Try it out on the pts yourself.

You got nerfed. Significantly. Period.

Everybody did.

Tornaad

Pevey wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

From the little I know, I suspect that I will have an easier time doing the content I want to try.

I’m really sorry, but Zos has given you the wrong impression. You can take a look at the changes on pts, and you can see that if they go live, you will be further than ever from completing things like vma. Those of us who are complaining about these changes are NOT just afraid of change. We are afraid of BAD change that nerfs everyone, especially those NOT in the most elite tier. These changes are bad for the game.

Try them out on PTS and decide for yourself. And then please provide feedback in the PTS section of the forum.

Believe me, I will.
The reason I suspect I will have an easier time is because of my play style.
For the most part, I fall in the casual player group. I do enjoy a good challenge every now and then, (which is why I would love to see an optional difficulty slider for overland content as I want the option to play harder content while questing), but really I don't fit in with the casual players.

I think that the thing that holds me back the most on vMA is trying to master weaving and keeping up my dots, so to have a whole patch that is (at least for its goal) supposed to make both of those easier, leaves me wondering if I will have an easier time on places like vMA.

Honestly, from looking at the patch notes, (had I not heard their goal) I would not have come to that conclusion on my own. But that might have more to do with me than the notes or their goals.

Tornaad

Pevey wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Sorry to tell you OP but none of the changes in the PTS patch notes provide any hope of the content being more accessible for you. Especially trying to finish VMA, the final stage of the last boss fight is a pretty big DPS race where you need to be moving a lot to avoid different damage sources. Having the DPS of DOTS nerfed so heavily is going to make that part of the fight way tougher to get through.

When I wrote this, the PTS notes had not come out yet.
I read through the patch notes, and while I did see a number of nerfs, I also saw quite a few buffs. I am not enough of a numbers nerd to know off hand how it will play out, but I know I love the idea of longer timers and I think that alone will help me out a lot. I really don't know though, and won't until I try playing it.
One of the things I will likely do is try vMA on PTS and see how it feels. I would be very surprised if I passed it because even if the changes are beneficial, then I don't think I am anywhere near that level of being ready.

Be careful thinking something is a buff. Basically, nothing got buffed. When you see certain skills that got an increase in damage per tick, that is usually over about half as many ticks as previously. And these are all now every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second. So dps got nerfed. Try it out on the pts yourself.

You got nerfed. Significantly. Period.

Everybody did.

I noticed that.
I also noticed how many of those same skills ended up having a damage boost and coming from a place where I rarely keep up all of my dots as is, to be given those same dots (even with them ticking half as much) for twice as long, will make me a lot more prone to keep up my dots and thus get more benefit from them. ... in theory at least. For all I know right now, you could be 100% right. I will find out ... likely this weekend. I don't see myself having time to do that test until then.

adamsmith42

That sounds more like a personal issue (OP), but is certainly not the case with everyone... I started playing 6 months ago and had a much different experience than you... take vMA for example; I ran vMA for the first time blind (no guides), having only run nMA once... died quite a few times, but cleared it that day... this is maybe 3 months into playing the game. Right after this came the explorers/jubilee events and I dove into those; came back to vMA about a month later with the goal of achieving the "Perfect Run" achievement for the Flawless Conqueror achievement... a goal that I accomplished before I filled my vMA stickerbook, and this is without using any guides for my build or vMA as a whole (although I did look up one specific thing, the argonian scream mechanic in the 7th arena). I'm not trying to come off as an elitist or tell you to 'get good'; just saying that just because you have not cleared the harder content in the game doesn't mean that it is impossible, or that the entire combat system should be changed to make things easier.

In response to your final thought; based on the notes that I have just got done reading from the PTS section of the forum - if these changes go live, I most likely will not be able to have another vMA 'Perfect Run', and your chances of clearing vMA for the first time will be drastically lowered; players like us (I am NOT top-tier; my parse is only like 77k...) are going to be SIGNIFCANTLY handicapped by the changes.. and the combat will become far less engaging, if not downright boring: buff, buff; 15x spammable, buff, buff, 15x spammable....