Why I fake tank

pklemming

If you fake tank or heal, without some kind of taunt or heal, I will kick you and we will manage without your [snip]

I have heal options and tank options on all my characters that do dungeons. It takes a little preparation, but means I can take over a role, if needs.

[edited for baiting]

NordSwordnBoard

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

I am not a top 1% parser, but I can parse a solid 90k. And to be honest most people who play this game can't even parse 50k+. If I were to honestly tank with the group doing 15k damage altogether then dungeons would take FOREVER. When I fake tank, I end up doing like 70-80% of the group's damage and we finish the dungeon in under 10 minutes. If anything, I am doing the other people in the group a favor. I suggest Random normal dungeons 4 people can queue up regardless of role because they are so easy anyway.

Used to be able to que as all 3 roles, or two etc. I wonder why the devs had it set that way? People who were equipped to do the thing fulfilled their role, and people who faked/bads got kicked or carried through the dungeon. The power levels and dps were much smaller then, and lack of dps meant you couldn't beat vet engine guardian without stopping for a meal lol.
It's quite the opposite now, especially in normal. Mythics and gear greatly empower players like never before, how could anyone expect a different result? Why do the more difficult/time consuming job for nearly the same reward?

If a real tank got gold/compensation to repair their gear and patience after each random dungeon, you would probably find many more of them in the que. They are not motivated to do so, and the reality is a tank can dump a bad group and be back in action much faster than said bad group. That's about the only shining light left in pugs for actual tanks looking to do the job and have fun in a reasonable amount of time.

ZOS_Lunar

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Kahnak

I don't care what your justification is, but I can tell you that, 'I do more DPS, so the rules don't apply to me' is probably one of the worst reasons I've heard.

You're not doing anywhere near that amount of damage without a stationary target, debuffs from a tank and buffs from a healer, so how are you doing the other players a favor when all of you are chasing singular mobs around the room because simply because you have this inflated idea of your own skill?

As another poster stated earlier: It's absolutely obnoxious and you know it. You people make dungeons suck for everyone else. I ditch fake tanks on principle.

Artim_X

Posts like this come up every now and then. From my experience when I queue up as tank or healer, it's rare for both DPS to be... how can I say this... rubbish. In the past when this happens I would just use the alphagear addon to change stuff around to be more DPS oriented while still fulfilling my role. This has become even easier for me with the armory assistant.

In all seriousness this post comes off as someone who wants to justify skipping the line and no one likes line skippers. As others have mentioned, if you slot a taunt so aggro is on you while you parse then none will care, but if I wait in queue to DPS and boss aggro keeps coming on me then a kick you shall receive.

This post would've been more interesting if you made it solely about the last part, which has been suggested in the past by others. First off I completely disagree that all random normals should not account for roles, since on normal people are still learning. Instead ZOS should have an alternative random normal queue where as you say, 4 people can pop in regardless of role. In this way everyone can be happy.

prof_doom

I don't have high standards for random groups.

If you taunt things and don't die, then you're tanking.
If you fail at those, you should be kicked from group if you're flagged as tank.

Ragnarok0130

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If you don't have taunt I don't give a damn what your numbers are you are a problem for me as a healer. Trash mobs don't ask your parse numbers before they attack me.

This 100% this. Fake tanks just make everyone’s life more difficult so they can queue quicker.

cyclonus11

Pepegrillos wrote: »

if you have a decent health pool, taunt, and block when you have to, I dont think most people would care (in normal and non-achievement seeking vet dungeons).

Except that is an actual tank. If you taunt and block you are being a tank, not a fake tank. Might not be an ideal tank, but you're still filling the role. Fake tanks don't do any of that - they just go in and DPS away without any concern for what the role requires.

everseeing_njpreub18_ESO

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

I am not a top 1% parser, but I can parse a solid 90k. And to be honest most people who play this game can't even parse 50k+. If I were to honestly tank with the group doing 15k damage altogether then dungeons would take FOREVER. When I fake tank, I end up doing like 70-80% of the group's damage and we finish the dungeon in under 10 minutes. If anything, I am doing the other people in the group a favor. I suggest Random normal dungeons 4 people can queue up regardless of role because they are so easy anyway.

Most times i agree people are just looking to get the daily done asap and burn through it.

BUT there are no doubt times (I've been among them more than once) where someone in the group is interested in running the dungeon properly and enjoying the quest and fights (maybe its their first time, they are trying to learn a new role/spec, or they want something from a side-boss), then your dragging people along at your speed regardless of what they would prefer.

Without a pre-made group or separate queue's i don't see how to fix, but there are two sides to seeing this sort of thing.

redlink1979

You should consider that not everyone started playing this years ago and that not everyone wishes to rush from start to end.
The "doing a favor" argument won't make your behavior acceptable.

DagenHawk

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

I am not a top 1% parser, but I can parse a solid 90k. And to be honest most people who play this game can't even parse 50k+. If I were to honestly tank with the group doing 15k damage altogether then dungeons would take FOREVER. When I fake tank, I end up doing like 70-80% of the group's damage and we finish the dungeon in under 10 minutes. If anything, I am doing the other people in the group a favor. I suggest Random normal dungeons 4 people can queue up regardless of role because they are so easy anyway.

I fake tank for the Lulz

xaraan

If it's a basic dungeon, esp a normal, I don't care what you actually do as tank as long as you taunt stuff, especially bosses. If you aren't doing that, you are letting people tank that didn't sign up for it when they get aggro (often the healer b/c of how aggro works).

FangOfTheTwoMoons

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If you don't have taunt I don't give a damn what your numbers are you are a problem for me as a healer. Trash mobs don't ask your parse numbers before they attack me.

I 100% agree that if a person is going to "fake tank" they should slot and keep taunt on any boss mobs. I do not think it's necessary to keep taunt on trash mobs though.

In most dungeons trash mobs are usually CC'ed and a priority add will be taunted. In normal dungeons this becomes even less if an issue. Simply outheal the damage and use some AoE abilities.

Sarannah wrote: »

The only reason a fake tank seems to do all the DPS on the DPS meters, is because they run ahead and attack everything before others can. Queueing as a fake role just means you feel yourself more important than the three other players you get paired up with.
You are not doing those three players a favor, as they miss out on loot and exp from the dungeon. And if you happen to get a DLC dungeon, or if they kick you, they have to wait out yet another queue because some a..... skipped the line.

If you are a DPS, queue as DPS. And ZOS needs to fix the fake role queueing somehow. There have been plenty of examples given over the years on how to fix this.

PS: As a tank I practically never had any problems with low DPS players. If players do low DPS, ninety-nine out of a hundred times the tank is at fault.
PPS: I have experienced fake tanks myself, and their DPS is mostly terrible, despite their claims.
PPPS: The only reason fake tanks aren't kicked instantly, is because waiting AGAIN for a real tank takes too long. Don't take players tolerating fake tanks temporarily, as approval.

While i agree that fake tanks usually have low dps I've seen plenty of fake tanks pull their weight with DPS and it wasn't because they were running ahead.

As long as taunt is held it doesn't matter what the player in the Tank role is wearing. An argument can be made about CC'ing mobs but let's be real; I've seen more 40k HP real tanks that do not CC anything than I've seen fake tanks.

Also, how can a Tank be responsible for low dps? That doesn't make sense to me. The only reason a player is hitting less than 10k in a normal dungeon is because they aren't using their skills properly. No amount of buff sets can increase their damage to reasonable levels.

Holycannoli

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Also, how can a Tank be responsible for low dps? That doesn't make sense to me. The only reason a player is hitting less than 10k in a normal dungeon is because they aren't using their skills properly. No amount of buff sets can increase their damage to reasonable levels.

Or they're not using optimal sets, or no sets at all, or their enchants are odd, or they're still pre-CP 160 or even sub-50. They won't bother to upgrade their gear properly because they'll soon out-level it so they run with whatever drops for now.

Sarannah

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Also, how can a Tank be responsible for low dps? That doesn't make sense to me. The only reason a player is hitting less than 10k in a normal dungeon is because they aren't using their skills properly. No amount of buff sets can increase their damage to reasonable levels.

Buffing DPS player's DPS with sets, is not what I do. That barely works, if it even works at all. Tactics play a major role in how to increase DPS.
Players can't DPS when they have aggro, tank's fault. Players can't DPS when they are dead, tank's fault(except for one-shots). Players can't DPS when the group is not complete, tank's fault(most often). Players do lower DPS when the group is not buffed or a boss target is not debuffed, mostly tank's fault(depends on class). Players do low DPS when they are out of resources, tank's fault.

Quite often when I tank I see people actually learning how a real tank deals with things, and learning how they should respond to that. Like when a DPS gets aggro, the DPS run in circles when that happens(as they are used to fake tanks), with a real tank they can run to the tank to help them( I range taunt immediately even if they don't ). The DPS usually notices this on the first few trash packs when I tank. This is also why after a few packs, I see DPS skyrocket. As the DPS learns they are (mostly) safe, they start standing still and start focussing on their rotation.
Or I can see the healer carefully staying at a distance the first packs and first boss(like they do on fake tanks), but after they notice I control the room, they start standing really close. And mostly even completely switch to their DPS offspec, as I am a selfishly build tank(high selfsurvival), and the other DPS are safe from harm. This causes me to do most dungeons with basically one tank and three DPS, while everyone actually queue'd for their real role.
Before engaging a boss, I always wait 5 seconds if the group requires it. This does wonders for the group's resources, as even the worst DPS player will be able to use some skills again. You can notice players are out of resources, or low on resources, when they start heavy attacking or barely use any skills. Just check this on the last trashgroup before a boss.
There are some more tricks, but these are most important.

If a good tank controls the run, the run is most often very smooth. There is absolutely no need for fake roles to exist, and therefor I feel ZOS should fix the fake role abuse in the dungeonfinder.

PS: Not every dungeonrun works out, and in extremely rare cases the DPS really is low with no improvement. But this has been the case in less than 1% of the runs for me.
PPS: As a player who is against kicking others, I barely ever kick anyone, even when other players initiate the vote kick. More often than not, it is the player initiating the vote to kick who was the issue. This I have often noticed after they leave when their vote to kick someone fails to go through. (These players usually blame low CP players for no reason.)

Jaimeh

OP, there's nothing stopping you from slotting inner fire for a taunt there, just saying... If I queue with my dps for a random normal as a tank, I always slot a taunt to make sure that unsuspecting people in the PUG won't get aggro. Besides, if the boss aggroes on a newbie that ends up kiting it to Narnia, then it's less dmg since the boss moves away from the ground DOTs, so having taunt on my dps enables better control of the fight, and a faster fight in general. You could try that too.

Thysbe

fake tanks are a heavy burden on group DPS - no stack and burn, the need of boss kiting, lack of Debuffs on bosses, no decent use od AOE Effecs possible - thats whats coming along with it

I always queue as DD since I neither heal nor tank - I don´t care about your CP, class, race or your max life but if I see you dont taunt the first boss I vote for kick - if it is refused I leave the group

Carcamongus

I'm a tank and once queued for Depths of Malalalalatar. As soon as I ported in someone asked if I had a taunt. For a moment I was insulted, but then it occurred to me fake tanks are a thing and that person probably had a bad time with them. In that same dungeon (I can't remember if it was the same run, though), we had a fake healer and almost didn't manage to beat that obnoxious ball of hatred boss. On normal. I don't remember having any complaints towards damage output, except that you kind of need to be alive to have any.

To lighten the mood a bit, I'll add the funny story of having once grouped with a fake DPS.... as in tank who queued as DPS and actually tanked. That made my job a bit harder, as the bosses bounced between the two of us as if we were playing a game of taunt Pong. I asked the player not to taunt and, as it turned out, they were just inexperienced at dungeons. I do regret not talking to the person afterwards to give some basic tips.

etchedpixels

I tank normals sometimes on my orc healer for the fun of it. But he's a DK healer with caltrops, combat prayer, some resto shields, barrier and a taunt. Started because I'd pack a taunt because of the plague of totally fake tanks and then became a habit because all to often the only way to get an actual healer and tank is just be both.

Personally I've got no problem with someone doing the role however they build and whatever they build so long as they can do it. If hotshot 100K sorc wants to tank, can taunt, not die and dps then great. Turning the trash into smoking piles is a pretty good way to avoid taking damage after all.

Funniest one we did by accident was running hybrid as DPS with a guildmate running his PVP toon as tank. When he couldn't quite cope with the harder content we got on the RND we swapped over tank and dps positions and totally confused the other two folk.

svendf

I somehow laughed at this storry. Not to be evil or bad towards you OP. You see my healer hate fake tanks and a few replys have already made it clear to you, why (maybe you learned something).

Three options coms to mind I use.

1 wote kick

2 If it fails to kick. Leave.

3 Sometimes my favor. Stay dead until I get kicked or the other team members finds out why I decline rezz. After all I started the wote kick.

So it´s you or me, who goes.

Regarding dps. It´s new to me you can taunt using dps. I will rather put it this way. You kill whatever you have to kill before you take the bite and bite the dust.

With the healer dead in the dust after standing up to the mobs and boss ( you see, you can´t run away from a agro). You can try to kill, what you have to kill with vigor.

I have seen it too often go wrong

Good hunting OP xD

It´s about time ZOS is doing something and put this to an end.

Zulera301

reasons to fake tank:

reason #0: there aren't any. <snip>

<snipped due to Inappropriate Language>

Jpk0012

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

I am not a top 1% parser, but I can parse a solid 90k. And to be honest most people who play this game can't even parse 50k+. If I were to honestly tank with the group doing 15k damage altogether then dungeons would take FOREVER. When I fake tank, I end up doing like 70-80% of the group's damage and we finish the dungeon in under 10 minutes. If anything, I am doing the other people in the group a favor. I suggest Random normal dungeons 4 people can queue up regardless of role because they are so easy anyway.

If you don't have taunt and the boss is ping ponging you're a detriment to your group. Lots of people have 70K+ dps. You're just lying to yourself to justify your selfish behavior.

Also, if I have a fake tank I stop healing. Funny, how everyone will then blame me for them dying instead of the selfish guy who wants to brag about his dps.

If I sign on as a dps and want to get a fast group I slot a taunt. Don't think we can't do content quickly without you. We can. I've been doing it for many years now.

AvalonRanger

Honestly say, high damage fake tank will be OK for me.
(but only for normal dungeon farming, no thanks for Vet)

Because we can use those type of player just like BFG9000 cannon.
Can finish the mission so first without second phase of boss combat.

Worst case is low damage fragile fake tank or player.
I don't want to revive those players.

Sync01

I can't say I've had many issues with fake tanks in random normals, in fact I can only remember a handful of times when there's been a tank who didn't even have taunt.

My main issue with fake tanks is the idea of a fake tank (or a fake healer) as someone who doesn't do things perfectly. Tanks, especially new ones, will probably lose taunt at some point or die to not blocking/roll dodging but because it's more noticeable when a tank messed up compared to a dd, they take all the heat. Tanks are not fake tanks just because they didn't manage to taunt everything in time before the dds ran in. There seems to be an idea that both tanks and healers are supposed to instantly good at their roles and very little slack is given for mistakes.

Of course if you queue as a tank and don't have a taunt, a healer and don't have any heals or a dd and don't have any damage abilities then yeah sure. But please stop the calling others fake tanks or fake healers as soon as something goes wrong.

drsalvation

Just give tanks some danged ol damage skills and let tanks help with dmg.
There was no reason to make power slam a DD skill, they should've just scaled with with max health and get it over with.
I'm not saying a tank should hit 30k dps, but maybe giving them something would reduce the amount of fake tanks and make support roles actually fun.
If you're a DD and you don't think tanks should have any sort of damage skills, then feel free to stop blocking and roll dodging because those are tank things.

WinterHeart626

Sarannah wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Also, how can a Tank be responsible for low dps? That doesn't make sense to me. The only reason a player is hitting less than 10k in a normal dungeon is because they aren't using their skills properly. No amount of buff sets can increase their damage to reasonable levels.

Buffing DPS player's DPS with sets, is not what I do. That barely works, if it even works at all. Tactics play a major role in how to increase DPS.
Players can't DPS when they have aggro, tank's fault. Players can't DPS when they are dead, tank's fault(except for one-shots). Players can't DPS when the group is not complete, tank's fault(most often). Players do lower DPS when the group is not buffed or a boss target is not debuffed, mostly tank's fault(depends on class). Players do low DPS when they are out of resources, tank's fault.

Quite often when I tank I see people actually learning how a real tank deals with things, and learning how they should respond to that. Like when a DPS gets aggro, the DPS run in circles when that happens(as they are used to fake tanks), with a real tank they can run to the tank to help them( I range taunt immediately even if they don't ). The DPS usually notices this on the first few trash packs when I tank. This is also why after a few packs, I see DPS skyrocket. As the DPS learns they are (mostly) safe, they start standing still and start focussing on their rotation.
Or I can see the healer carefully staying at a distance the first packs and first boss(like they do on fake tanks), but after they notice I control the room, they start standing really close. And mostly even completely switch to their DPS offspec, as I am a selfishly build tank(high selfsurvival), and the other DPS are safe from harm. This causes me to do most dungeons with basically one tank and three DPS, while everyone actually queue'd for their real role.
Before engaging a boss, I always wait 5 seconds if the group requires it. This does wonders for the group's resources, as even the worst DPS player will be able to use some skills again. You can notice players are out of resources, or low on resources, when they start heavy attacking or barely use any skills. Just check this on the last trashgroup before a boss.
There are some more tricks, but these are most important.

If a good tank controls the run, the run is most often very smooth. There is absolutely no need for fake roles to exist, and therefor I feel ZOS should fix the fake role abuse in the dungeonfinder.

PS: Not every dungeonrun works out, and in extremely rare cases the DPS really is low with no improvement. But this has been the case in less than 1% of the runs for me.
PPS: As a player who is against kicking others, I barely ever kick anyone, even when other players initiate the vote kick. More often than not, it is the player initiating the vote to kick who was the issue. This I have often noticed after they leave when their vote to kick someone fails to go through. (These players usually blame low CP players for no reason.)

As long as I’m not screaming “get it off me” while I’m running DPS role (bosses and trouble adds- ie overchargers, trash is non issue, they burn either way), you’re doing your job. Drop taunt once or twice, that’s fine, that happens.
I don’t care about the buffs/ debuffs and every other minuscule thing that tanks are “expected” to bring to a dungeon, what I do care about is: hold the boss in place. Redirect problematic attacks AWAY from group. Overchargers and similar adds- grab them, hold them, so we can burn them, the trash mobs can wait until those ones are gone.

End of the day, DPS do no damage when they’re dead. DPS is not going to increase when the boss is fanging about like a frisbee on roids because there’s no taunt going on.

(So all your points, no arguements from me ❤️ Good tanks keep DPS safe, so the healer can heal the tank, so the tank can keep on tanking).

Nemezijus

People queue as fake tanks/healers to cut queues on group finder. Period.
They don't do it because they feel very altruistic and join a random group to carry other group members.

If you want to do "fake role" just form a group with guild mates, or use zone chats in major cities. Everyone in the group will be happy because they know what they signed up for. I see a lot of "3dd run" "4dd run" groups for randoms in zone/guild chats.

You're not doing any favors to anyone but yourself by faking tank role in random groups.

M0ntie

So long as you hold taunt, I don't care what else you do. But if you queue as tank you're saying that's the role you'll fulfil which is at an absolute minimum is holding taunt, so do it. If you want to carry the group and do only dps, queue as dps.

WrathOfInnos

Good DPS with a taunt = Great random normal tank

Anyone in tank role who refuses to slot a taunt = Instant kick

No amount of DPS you contribute is going to make up for the boss running all over the place and killing group members that did not sign up for the tank role.

adyreonb14_ESO

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

I am not a top 1% parser, but I can parse a solid 90k. And to be honest most people who play this game can't even parse 50k+. If I were to honestly tank with the group doing 15k damage altogether then dungeons would take FOREVER. When I fake tank, I end up doing like 70-80% of the group's damage and we finish the dungeon in under 10 minutes. If anything, I am doing the other people in the group a favor. I suggest Random normal dungeons 4 people can queue up regardless of role because they are so easy anyway.

You might as well say "It's all about me and who cares about you!". I don't understand this mentality. If you want to queue as a tank, at least taunt and take the hits for the group while you do damage. If the mobs are running around smacking everyone else, it makes it harder on them, just to make it easier for you.

I agree random normal dungeons are easy once you are used to them, but some are joining these queues and some still struggle; think of them. I'm a tank, and queue as a tank, and I can tell how efficient everyone is by the end of the first boss, if not earlier. If they are, I switch around my skills to do more damage while still taunting to help them out if there is a DPS issue. If there is a healer issue, then I switch my back-bar out and a couple skills so I can tank and help the healer.

It's all about teamwork and enjoying the company, rather than blasting through not caring if your group wants that or not.

And yes, I mostly pug, because I enjoy the variety of skill levels of the people.