Why tank population is so small?

peacenote

Another one of these threads? High Isle only distracted for... six days? Or are you all on console?

AvalonRanger

Kingpindragon wrote: »

I once tank a pug trial, back when ice staff taunted. Long story short I couldn't keep taunt and the much of the group cussed me out BAD. Turn out to be a dps taunting. No one apologized. I decide to never tank a pug again. Too much trauma lol

I have same experience. I can understand your feeling bro.
In my case, our second CP700 tank escape from trial at the first attempting.
I keep nailed dangerous boss as main PUG tank, but there're so many of irresponsible players out there.
They put the all fault against me with crude word. I don't want to trial again.
Hope ZOS increase more story solo quest rather than those things.

MissHeartseekerx

Everyone's nailed it. A combination of poor DPS, tiringly long runs, and a lot of hostility in general towards tanks when things go wrong. I once tanked vShipwrights and got the blame for the healer and both DDs dying to Spout. Did they want me to taunt the AOE...?

AvalonRanger

MissHeartseekerx wrote: »

Everyone's nailed it. A combination of poor DPS, tiringly long runs, and a lot of hostility in general towards tanks when things go wrong. I once tanked vShipwrights and got the blame for the healer and both DDs dying to Spout. Did they want me to taunt the AOE...?

"Did they want me to taunt the AOE...?" Yea, I suffered same type of complaining from bad team mate.
It's a totally nonsense players.

Usually those poor team mate like this.

1, They don't have decent skill rotation. Or doing strange AP and CP building.
2, Can't do emergency evading, or dodge escape. No self protection or no self healing.
3, Don't have high crafting skill, can't maintenance their gear properly.
4, No food buff, and can't make suitable food for their building style by their own.
5, Ignore situation control, going selfish and die many times.
6, Very irresponsible, and keep blaming tank with unreasonable matter.
7, Keep searching high CP tank and healer without their own effort always.

Without helping each other, we can't do Vet contents.

chrisub17_ESO104

As someone that came back to the game after 5 years not playing, learning the content can be a challenge. Learning all the heavy attacks and various mechanics takes time. And the bar is all or nothing with dungeon finder. So that's a pretty unrealistic bar for players that are newer to the game or returning. Most people won't do what I did, which is go watch a video on every single dungeon multiple times. But if you don't want to suck, that's the bar even on normal.

The problem is ZOS wants to push players into content they don't want. Never understood that. No not all of your content is worth playing, why is that so difficult to accept? If you could filter more in the dungeon finder it would solve a lot of problems.

ADarklore

In all honesty, ESO is one MMO that I have never run with a group. I was forced to run with groups in DCUO, and hated it, but also forced to run with groups in FFXIV and actually enjoyed it. I did really well as tank and healer there, but I also gained a LOT of practice running with my squadron (solo) so I learned mechanics of each role pretty well, so it made the jobs less stressful. I think the stress level for tanks, especially new tanks, far outweighs the positives received. Having to know the dungeon, being expected to guide the group, know the mechanics, and deal with low DPS players... at the end of the day, it's just not worth it to a lot of people.

WraithShadow13

As someone with a tank, for me personally, it's two fold.


1) Toxic community is VERY TOXIC

With all the high DPS mentality people, i've had people throw fits because "They took damage" or because i'm not "tanking the way they want me too." If your build requires the rest of the team to play a specific way, it probably isn't all that great. I'm not here to fill in your gaps, kiddo, especially not in a rando pug dungeon. With so many entitled or elitist players being horrible and toxic, it just really doesn't make playing fun. My healers get the same thing, though to a lesser degree. Either way, it's no where NEAR the hate a low DPS player will get from the higher DPS's more toxic players.


2) There isn't much reason to.

This game is built to play as you please. You want to do healing, you can. You want to tank, you can. You want a build that can solo dungeons, you can. With that in mind, it's a bit crazy that they decided to do the trinity requirements for dungeons. More so, if they pander to the minmaxed builds, with little to no balance. If four people with insane builds can speed through dungeons, why would anyone play as a hit sponge? With the previous answer, on top of that, there just really isn't much incentive for a player to be a tank. "You're not de/buffing", "I took damage", "You died once", etc, why would tanks want to tank for people like that without anything really motivating them to do so?


Overall, i think it falls on ZOS for not doing more to reign in the toxic players, the elitists, balancing the INSANELY minmaxed builds, or for really doing nothing to teach players how to build to meet these goals. I like that dungeons have mechanics to learn or can do things to catch you off guard, but in the end, it just isn't nearly as beneficial to tank as it is to DPS. Not in overland OR dungeons.

Troodon80

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

With all the high DPS mentality people, i've had people throw fits because "They took damage" or because i'm not "tanking the way they want me too." If your build requires the rest of the team to play a specific way, it probably isn't all that great. I'm not here to fill in your gaps, kiddo, especially not in a rando pug dungeon.

To be fair, ZOS are not the thought-police. You want to play in one way, someone else wants to play another. In the same way that you say "if your build is made in such a way as to require someone else to play a specific way it's probably not that good," someone else is allowed to think that you should help support the group as a support role. Disagreements happen when the two conflicting opinions collide, when neither is 100% right or wrong but neither is willing to compromise, and it's not up to ZOS to "fix" people's thought patterns. If someone is being abusive, however, I highly recommend you use the report feature.

Amottica

francesinhalover wrote: »

in most games now a days tanks deal dmg, on eso tanks just feels boring. a fix would be to give the role damage too and more tools for aggro, but pvp exists so rip

They do very little damage in most games but also have "agro" as automatic so they are not really doing much to actually tank in those games. It is tanking on rails whereas in ESO a tank has to actually pay attention.

Also, a tank can build for damage, though should never be able to do the same damage as a DD and still be tanky. A skilled tank will know when they can hit the boss and when they need to hold block.

pelle412

I think there are many players starting ESO and coming from single player RPG games that considers their fantasy character to be tanky with a sword and shield. There's nothing wrong with this at all. This works well in other Elder Scrolls games. They start ESO, get some gear and try to play how they want. Fairly quickly you reach a frustration cap because it goes so very slow. They ask around are being told to switch to DPS. Once that switch happens they stay with that path as it gets you through storylines fairly painlessly. In other games such as WoW, a tank actually does decent damage. Probably about 50% of what a DPS does. In ESO that's more like 10%.

FeedbackOnly

jaws343 wrote: »

I used to run my tank fairly regularly, but now mostly stick to my DPS.

Why?

Well, when the group is doing poorly, my tank is just kind of stuck there along for the ride. I can tank out bosses for a while, but if the DPS isn't staying alive, or isn't doing significant damage, well, the run is a bust. One of the last runs I was in, prior to backseating my tank, was a normal random Banished Cells 2. Ended up in a group with all sub-50 players besides myself as a tank. We get a few bosses into the dungeon and the group, besides myself, kept wiping to add waves during one of the boss fights. And the damage was so low, that during that fight where the boss jumps in portals, the DPS barely did a few percent of damage to the boss (if they weren't dying to the adds) before she jumped into the next portal.

Conversely, on my DPS, if I end up in a terrible group, and depending on the dungeon, I can just carry it, or at the very least, make up for poor performances of other players. I remember once having to solo the Ogres in scalecaller because the rest of the group kept dying. Couldn't possibly do that on a tank.

The outcome of many encounters are far more within your control as a DPS than they are as a tank, which makes tanking kind of a drag. Now, there are certainly fights where a poor tank is going to cause the run to fail as well, but those are much, much rarer.

So it's poor game design? Not taking account of tank checks to be designed and dungeons and other events in the game

Paralyse

pelle412 wrote: »

I think there are many players starting ESO and coming from single player RPG games that considers their fantasy character to be tanky with a sword and shield. There's nothing wrong with this at all. This works well in other Elder Scrolls games. They start ESO, get some gear and try to play how they want. Fairly quickly you reach a frustration cap because it goes so very slow. They ask around are being told to switch to DPS. Once that switch happens they stay with that path as it gets you through storylines fairly painlessly. In other games such as WoW, a tank actually does decent damage. Probably about 50% of what a DPS does. In ESO that's more like 10%.

For WoW that number is closer to 5-10% of a typical 10 to 15 man raid group.

Source: I main a paladin tank, also warrior and dk tanks

ForzaRammer

Amottica wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Because most tanks don't want to waste time with below average damage dealers, and are not good at kicking them

I honestly tried. After leveling my tank and guild mates warned me about tanking for random groups in the GFI still tried to help the GF.

After dealing with tanking for various GF groups with low DPS and/or oblivious to obvious mechanics, I can across a group that could not kill Urata in CoA II even though I would pull the adds in and keep them rooted. I also had a similar issue with a random group in Direforst where they would not break the stun fast enough so she just healed up. THey also kept dying to her PBAOE which is very obvious when it will happen.

Why should tanks queue for a random group and have these experiences when they can easily avoid it?

Exactly, you have to be good at kicking if you want at least average group from dungeon finder.

KaGaOri

AvalonRanger wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

Got interested in support roles and wanted try something more involved than healing. Tried to build tank, but got hit with problem looking like this:



As a DD one naturally learns to hit stuff just by playing the game. Then there's dummy to train on to do higher damage. As a tank one has to acquire whole new set of player skills rest of the game doesn't really prepare for. Kind of failed to find place where to start and learn the basics and now have 1700 cp tank who can't reliably taunt multiple targets, isn't sure what can be blocked and what has to be rolldodged and fails at resource management on occasion.

As tanking beginner can't jump directly into "desperately needs powerfull tank" content and content which isn't difficult to tank can be soloed by strong DDs and is populated by speedrunners. Both is frustrating - either won't get to do anything and can barely keep up with the group, or will make mistake and cause group wipe.

Then there is expectation of tank knowing every mechanic in every dungeon, need to farm way too many different sets, plus questing in overland sucks, since everything takes forever to die.

Tanking just isn't casual fun like playing DD and ZOS does very little to make it easier or more atractive.

If you can kill world boss by solo, but can't kill Elyswer dragon by solo.
Then, that build is cross point at the graph.

It is more question about what content than what build. Can copy build from another, more experienced person. Have build the tank according to alcasthq's web page. The stuff I'm missing is skill as a player. Great build is useless if player fails to block at right moment, blocks when should rolldodge, or is able taunt the boss but struggles grab add who will murder rest of group as result. Soloed some WBs, but even with companion it takes forewer on tank, so mostly would solo them on dd.

It is just more comfortable and satisfying to play dd who is able to do vet dlc dungeons with relative ease, than getting knocked on my butt repeatedly and cussed out by team mates as a tank (or be useless whole run, if group is too strong and runs fast).

ElvenOverlord

In my personal experience its hard playing a tank. To much pressure and responsibility and any minor screw up gets you yelled at. You're either moving to fast or to slow, way more hassle than its worth tbh.

pklemming

Have build the tank according to alcasthq's web page

This here is one of your problems. Alcast does not tank the majority of the time. There are dedicated tank sites out there and tank videos showing you how to tank, and what gear to use where. I see so many people running around in Ebon now, when it is honestly not needed with the CP2.0 change.

When I was originally starting to tank, I moved up from World bosses through vet dlc bosses I could get to solo, to the likes of the mino challenge in vFH.

Unless you like a lot of abuse, don't run random vets for a while, and go in to vet dlcs with friends. Get an experienced tank to do some runs with you are a healer or DD and they can tell you obvious mistakes you may be making.

With most dungeons and content, though, it is learning the fight, what attacks the bosses have, whether then need dodging or blocking. Whether, as a tank, there is an additional role you need to perform (like, say, vBRF and vSCP), and what additional buffs and benefits you can bring to the group.

At the end of the day, though it is practice and stubbornness.

Also, some tanks are easier to play then others. The DK personally bores me, but is probably the most suited to tanking out of any of the classes. All classes are viable for tanking, though, some just require more skill.

pklemming

If you are on PC there are addons that will help you tank, too. The likes of 'Tank', 'Untaunted', 'Code's Combat alerts', and 'Raid notifie'r are, imo, essential when on a PC platform. Maybe Hyper tanking tools, too, though I personally don't use it.

Oh, I missed out the highly important, 'Am I blocking?', because, well.... ZoS and block.......

WraithShadow13

Troodon80 wrote: »

To be fair, ZOS are not the thought-police. You want to play in one way, someone else wants to play another. In the same way that you say "if your build is made in such a way as to require someone else to play a specific way it's probably not that good," someone else is allowed to think that you should help support the group as a support role. Disagreements happen when the two conflicting opinions collide, when neither is 100% right or wrong but neither is willing to compromise, and it's not up to ZOS to "fix" people's thought patterns. If someone is being abusive, however, I highly recommend you use the report feature.

That seems like a bit of a fallacy, though. It's one thing to expect a modicum of support or teamwork when playing in a team environment WITH a team. THAT'S not the problem. The problem comes when you're not carrying the other player's specific needs without knowing what said needs would be. Tanks shouldn't get yelled at for not doing X and Y based on a specific player's specific build/playstyle... Which happens a lot, from the sound of it here. Playing a game as it's designed versus to an unspoken demand that is impossible to know, it's not an issue of ZOS being "thought police". That's more of the refusal to deal with toxic players, balance a game, or add things to the game that would actually teach you to play in certain ways required for content. Comparing an abusive player, or even just a demanding player, to someone who might be new to the game and playing it as is just doesn't make a sensible comparison in that regard. I have nothing against people that build for that or expect it in an established pre-made team who dungeons for fun but for Tanks to encounter that sort of unpleasant behavior in over half or a more of their runs isn't a matter of "differing opinions" or execting "ZOS to fix people's thought patterns".